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View Full Version : Metal Gear Solid 4 : Your Thoughts?


Pliskin
06-02-2008, 09:37 AM
In the interest of keeping everything in one place over the next few days (and trying to keep spoilers to a minimum), lets move all the MGS4 discussion into this thread.
Everyone, PLEASE mark your spoilers.

Now, for a little bit of history... (taken from wikipedia)

In chronological order (in-universe), the other canon games of the series are...

Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_3:_Snake_Eater)

Metal Gear Solid: Portable Ops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid:_Portable_Ops)

Metal Gear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear)

Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_2:_Solid_Snake)

Metal Gear Solid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid)

Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_2:_Sons_of_Liberty)

Finally, 10 more days before MGS4. Hope everyone who wants it has a PS3 to play it ;-)

Settings:
Mgs4 takes place in at least 4 settings that we know about.

A middle-eastern area.
A mountainous/jungle area in South America
An urban environment in Eastern Europe.
And Shadow Moses Island from MGS1

There's also been allusions that the the game ends at a place that, roughly paraphrased, "fans will have been waiting 30+ years to see". Whether this means Zanzibarland or the original Outer Heaven, nobody knows.

Octocamo:

This time, Snake will be aided in his mission via a new high-tech suit simply called "Octocamo" which functions much like the natural camouflage of an octopus, it will naturally take on the textures of the surrounding area, but only if one stands still for a few seconds. This is all done in real-time on the PS3 hardware.

There's also some other interesting things about Octocamo:
The face-mask can apparently be used to change physical appearance. In several trailers Snake's aged face morphs into the younger version of himself.

Also, one of the Beauty and the Beast Unit members (Laughing Octopus) makes heavy use of Octocamo. In one trailer, she takes on the appearance of Solid Snake, and brutally begins slaughtering the local militia.

Syrinx
06-02-2008, 10:03 AM
Finally, 10 more days before MGS4. Hope everyone who wants it has a PS3 to play it ;-)



yea... definately reserved the game... definately picking it up... definately don't have a ps3... >.> <.< but... my boyfriend does!

the LAN warrior
06-02-2008, 11:16 AM
yeah I will be buying the PS3/MGS4 bundle pack later this month (most likely ordering it online so i wont get it for a week or so but such is life when you live out in the boonies hundreds of miles from game stores)
As i dont have a good connection its hard for me to stay up to date on the news, when i saw the old to young snake transformation i just thought FOXDIE reversal. I need keep up to speed i guess

TybaltFlux
06-02-2008, 11:20 AM
I'm pumped. I made sure that I wasn't working that day, because I'm a loser and would take off from work just to spend all day MGS4-ing it up.

So what does everyone think on the 'supposed' 90-minute cutscenes? Looks like Kojima has stopped blurring the line between movies and video games and came up with some weird hybrid with a gooey center.

orionflame
06-02-2008, 12:22 PM
I'll be getting MG4...but I don't have a PS3. So I'll just be staring at the case on a shelf until I can get the system to play it.:bigcry:

Pliskin
06-02-2008, 12:40 PM
I'll be getting MG4...but I don't have a PS3. So I'll just be staring at the case on a shelf until I can get the system to play it.:bigcry:

I'll probably be bringing a PS3 with me to Otakon, so depending on how crowded the hotel room I'm in is, I'm sure quite a few MGS cosplayers without PS3's are gonna want to play, LOL.

I took 4 days off from work myself for the launch, LOL. I'm determined to beat the game in that amount of time.

new_ike
06-02-2008, 03:51 PM
I'm fine with long cutscenes as long as there's an option to pause. Even better if there's a "rewind" function.

Also, if you've got the time, resources and energy, keep in mind that several members of the production team will be flying all over the world on launch day to sign game sleeves. New York City will be getting Kojima and Shinkawa, while Hayter and Payton (or as i like to call him, "American Kojima-Lite") in LA. Check the MGS4 website for more info.

I'm not quite sure if Shadow Moses still qualifies as a spoiler, though, I thought it was quite apparent from the TGS 07 trailer that that's where the Rex/Ray battle takes place.

As for Otakon, depending on my accomodations (which I have yet to arrange, I'm cool like that) I will probably be bringing my PS3 as well. Hopefully Otakon Game Room Staff will be wise enough to keep a hub of screens open for some sort of MGO action.

UNIT0918
06-02-2008, 03:56 PM
I'm glad that I finished the entire MGS: The Essential Collection before the release of MGS4! I've started becoming a fan a few months ago! ^^; I don't have a PS3, but I'll still get MGS4 and play it on my friend's system!

Archelon
06-02-2008, 04:23 PM
http://www.gamesradar.com/ps3/metal-gear-solid-4-guns-of-the-patriots/review/metal-gear-solid-4-guns-of-the-patriots/a-20080602125952203027/g-20051216153655522074

Hmm, this review seems to confirm the thing I've been most concerned about regarding MGS4: answering all of the unanswered questions. I know they are going to tie up all of the loose ends in the series, but I've always worried that doing so would negatively affect the narrative of MGS4 itself.

Obviously I can't make any judgements until I've played it myself, but I'm really hoping that a lot of the answers come in the form of optional codec conversations rather than being force fed them via cutscenes. That way, fans of the series can get all of the answers they've been waiting for while newcomers can simply enjoy the game's standalone storyline (if there even is one) without being bogged down by disparate revelations from past game.

The best example I can think of is BioShock. You could play through the game and still enjoy a very rewarding storyline in its own right without any further effort on your part, but if you really wanted to dig into the real meat of the backstory, you had to search for the various hidden audio files that were dispersed throughout the world of Rapture.

Even Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles did something similar, what with the files you could find in each stage. Many of the files had little or nothing to do with the events portrayed in Umbrella Chronicles, but they answered burning questions from previous games in the series.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see how Kojima handles it.

Quantum9
06-03-2008, 10:06 AM
I find it kind of silly that Konami is forcing reviewers to flat out not mention several things about the game, including the install time (roughly 15-20 minutes), and the length of cutscenes (word is cinematics take up half of the gametime, with the ending a whopping 90 minutes in length). Supposedly that's not all that's being withheld as well.

EGM has already said that they won't be reviewing the game until after its release, so they won't be held by these limitations. Other than that, reviews have been fairly positive, the major blemish being an 8.0 from Eurogamer. IGN UK gave the game a 9.9, Gamepro a perfect score, and CVG a 9.5.

Pliskin
06-03-2008, 11:23 AM
I find it kind of silly that Konami is forcing reviewers to flat out not mention several things about the game, including the install time (roughly 15-20 minutes), and the length of cutscenes (word is cinematics take up half of the gametime, with the ending a whopping 90 minutes in length). Supposedly that's not all that's being withheld as well.

I think there's a bit more here going on than cutscene length. Some of the mags are claiming that there is, without a doubt, a 90minute + cutscenes, while others claim that's completely untrue. It sounds to me that they're not agreeing on the definition of a "cutscene"

Frankly, the length of cutscenes shouldn't matter at all. The quality of them should be more of a concern. Nobody ever says in a movie review "the chase sequences are 20 minutes long". They say whether they were good or not. That's the important thing.

You obviously don't remember the MGS2 review debacle, when Konami made sure that none of the reviews could mention Raiden, or the extent you play as him. I'm not really broken up about it, and its not like Konami is threatening to pull access. They're simply saying, that if you want to mention stuff we don't want to, wait until the embargo lifts.

EGM has already said that they won't be reviewing the game until after its release, so they won't be held by these limitations. Other than that, reviews have been fairly positive, the major blemish being an 8.0 from Eurogamer. IGN UK gave the game a 9.9, Gamepro a perfect score, and CVG a 9.5.

Edge and Eurogamer both gave it low scores (They have a tendency to give odd ratings to games), but frankly, its already been established that the games media doesn't know how to rate a game impartially, and all reviews are really just subjective opinions right? I'm reserving judgment until I actually play it, but from what I gather, its a game made for the fans, and frankly, that's all I care about.

Oh, and 9 more days.

the LAN warrior
06-03-2008, 01:08 PM
You obviously don't remember the MGS2 review debacle, when Konami made sure that none of the reviews could mention Raiden, or the extent you play as him.

WHY OH WHY DID THEY ADD THAT GIRLY-MAN TO METAL GEAR SOLID?
Anywho, we all know that game reviews mean absolutely horse dung. I remember the "Kane and Lynch" ordeal.

Now everyone can stop reading now, i just need to vent a little.

I dont want to buy the damn ps3. School is costing more and more each year and with books costing me several hundred bucks each semester i just dont think i should spent five hundred bucks on an entertainment product when i already have a 360. But i know i will. The sad thing is there are only, like, two good games out for the PS3 (not counting the ones i already have for my 360).

Quantum9
06-03-2008, 02:54 PM
Frankly, the length of cutscenes shouldn't matter at all. The quality of them should be more of a concern. Nobody ever says in a movie review "the chase sequences are 20 minutes long". They say whether they were good or not. That's the important thing.

Except that is a movie. This is a video game. When I buy a video game, I expect to be able to actually PLAY the game, not watch cutscenes. The scenes should add to the game...not be a part of the game.

But, like you said, this is a game for the fans. I'm sure they're loving the fact that they'll be putting down the controller for several minutes at a time. I know it's not something I enjoy, however.

Pliskin
06-03-2008, 06:13 PM
Except that is a movie. This is a video game. When I buy a video game, I expect to be able to actually PLAY the game, not watch cutscenes. The scenes should add to the game...not be a part of the game.

That's just it though, I'd much rather have a game such as MGS where you get brilliantly cinematic cutscenes, instead of something like Half-Life 2, where everyone goes on about something in a custscene and you just wander around the place while everyone goes on their predetermined spiel.

Even more interesting, from what we've seen, some of the cutscenes allow you to play as MG2 and roam around and investigate while Snake and Campbell have their talk, ala HL2, if that's what people want.

Also, the few "gameplay to cutscene" instances we've seen, have been incredibly well merged between the two, and often times there are things can can do while a lengthy cutscene unfolds in the games . (controlling binocular view, looking elsewhere, etc.)

Its disingenuous to say that you're sitting through entire cutscenes with your controller in your lap, because if you're doing that a lot, you're going to be playing the game wrong.

the LAN warrior
06-03-2008, 07:01 PM
Lets not forget the end of MGS3 (and honestly if this comes as a spoiler to you, then just leave this thread) when you have to pull the trigger (so to speak) to kill The Boss. That was in the middle of a "cut scene".
Also i would like to point out that not a single one of us has PLAYED the game yet and all we are going on is hearsay and conjecture. There could be NO cut scenes for all we know.
But, I for one, enjoy cut scenes. That way when i play the game again, i can just skip it and get on with the game if i so choose (never on the first play through, i would never commit such a blasphemy). But in the games where the plot happens around the player you have to mill around while waiting for the story to unfold.
Also with Metal Gear Solid, there are a few characteristics that are apart of the game's feel i.e.; the cut scenes, the codex calls, the juxtaposition of realistic random enemies and paranormal bosses. Its become part of the style of game. To get rid of the cut scenes would be like adding a pony grooming mini-game to Halo.

Archelon
06-03-2008, 07:11 PM
adding a pony grooming mini-game to Halo.

I'd buy that.

"Select the pistol, and then, select your horse."

(In case anyone doesn't get the reference: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2008/5/26/)

Pliskin
06-03-2008, 07:57 PM
Bit of a joke to lighten things up...

If anyone knows of Che Chou, he used to work over at 1up.com, and is a somewhat notorious X-Box fanboy. He then left 1up to work for Turn 10, the makers of the Forza series.

Anyway, someone at 1up had a sense of humor, and posted a "fake" review of MGS4 by Che Chou.

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/2461/f4bhxpa4.png

I chuckled.

FinalEVA
06-03-2008, 09:18 PM
Bit of a joke to lighten things up...

If anyone knows of Che Chou, he used to work over at 1up.com, and is a somewhat notorious X-Box fanboy. He then left 1up to work for Turn 10, the makers of the Forza series.

Anyway, someone at 1up had a sense of humor, and posted a "fake" review of MGS4 by Che Chou.

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/2461/f4bhxpa4.png

I chuckled.

LOL. That was pretty funny.

But yeah, I'm getting the game at midnight on launch day.

Pliskin
06-04-2008, 01:13 AM
Dunno if its true yet but http://kotaku.com/5012898/famitsu-gives-metal-gear-solid-4-perfect-score

Possible 40/40 from Famitsu

TybaltFlux
06-04-2008, 01:24 AM
That'll be really freaking impressive if MGS4 got that score from Famitsu. Of course, what Famitsu judges to be good has a serious Eastern video game foundation underneath it, so it doesn't translate immediately over to being good to a Western audience nor does it mean that it'll be accepted warmly here in the States.

But that's just argument for the sake of argument. I think we all know the game's going to break high-9's, if not perfect scores, all over the place, especially once review embargos are removed.

Man do I want to play this.

Pliskin
06-04-2008, 08:58 AM
Perfect Score from Famitsu comfirmed

FLIPINOMAD
06-04-2008, 06:50 PM
can't wait to play the game, can't wait to watch the long cutscenes I expect as well. But I might have to settle for standard edition than Limited because of money issues (I am also buying my cosplay things and airsoft gun).

Archelon
06-04-2008, 09:07 PM
http://www.gamespot.com/news/blogs/review-blog/909185210/index.html

I found this particularly amusing since it's Gamespot. I don't disagree with them regarding Konami forbidding reviewers from mentioning the length of cutscenes and install time, but it's just funny that it's Gamespot.

4ng31
06-04-2008, 09:34 PM
http://www.gamespot.com/news/blogs/review-blog/909185210/index.html

I found this particularly amusing since it's Gamespot. I don't disagree with them regarding Konami forbidding reviewers from mentioning the length of cutscenes and install time, but it's just funny that it's Gamespot.

Lol...hypocritical blog is hypocritical.

Anyways, I'm pretty psyched...haven't really been this hyped up for a game in a long while to be honest.

FinalEVA
06-04-2008, 11:30 PM
Yep. About 1 week left from where I'm at right now (until midnight). I'm starting to feel the excitement for sure now.

Pliskin
06-05-2008, 09:06 AM
Well, I'm sufficiently spoiled now, I know some pretty pretty big stuff, LOL.

Kojima definitely did the amazing in this one, lets say.

Archelon
06-05-2008, 11:12 AM
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/879/879429p1.html

IGN Australia gave it a 9.5. This is also probably the most even-handed review I've read for the game yet.

ELFanatic
06-05-2008, 12:47 PM
[QUOTE=4ng31;2461718]Lol...hypocritical blog is hypocritical.
QUOTE]

oh no! A 4 chan man!

I give props to them about their blog. Probably at a huge risk for them financially. But I respect their decision.

As for being hyped for this new one. No. I want to. I LOVED the first solid but I haven't liked the direction they've taken the series since then. I may pick it up to reverse my opinion on the franchise though.

4ng31
06-05-2008, 03:24 PM
I give props to them about their blog. Probably at a huge risk for them financially. But I respect their decision.

While the intention they have is good, and perhaps "ethical", concerning their history and track-record, it means nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann

Do some research, and then try to tell me Gamespot is "respectable".

ELFanatic
06-06-2008, 01:10 AM
While the intention they have is good, and perhaps "ethical", concerning their history and track-record, it means nothing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Gerstmann

Do some research, and then try to tell me Gamespot is "respectable".

That might be true but I didn't say I respected them, I just respect their decision on this matter. I'm sure they've done some cheap things before. I don't really know.

Archelon
06-06-2008, 11:48 AM
I must say I'm not liking what I'm hearing about the story. I haven't seen or read any actual spoilers, but from what some people have been saying, it sounds like this game has more retcons than a Spider-Man comic.

TybaltFlux
06-06-2008, 12:00 PM
It's a pretty easy game to retcon. But I agree with the whole sentiment about retconning.

Kojima admitted (unfortunately) that he retcon'd everything post MGS1, because he didn't have stuff planned out after MGS1. It's really unfortunate, because even though I've come to expect this from Kojima, one of the main reasons (if not the main) that I respected MGS as a game franchise was the story, and retconning always ruins some of the quality of a story in my eyes. Then again, when done masterfully, I guess you can respect some forms of retconning just like you can respect some forms of deus ex machina.

But who knows, maybe Kojima is finally being humble for once and has had this story planned out from day one, and like usual he's screwing with his fans.

Speaking of retcons, new Futurama movie <two weeks after MGS4, whee!

Pliskin
06-06-2008, 06:32 PM
It's a pretty easy game to retcon. But I agree with the whole sentiment about retconning.

Kojima admitted (unfortunately) that he retcon'd everything post MGS1, because he didn't have stuff planned out after MGS1. It's really unfortunate, because even though I've come to expect this from Kojima, one of the main reasons (if not the main) that I respected MGS as a game franchise was the story, and retconning always ruins some of the quality of a story in my eyes. Then again, when done masterfully, I guess you can respect some forms of retconning just like you can respect some forms of deus ex machina.

But who knows, maybe Kojima is finally being humble for once and has had this story planned out from day one, and like usual he's screwing with his fans.

Speaking of retcons, new Futurama movie <two weeks after MGS4, whee!

You basically hit it on the head. MGS1 was done with the intention of being a single game, no sequel. By definition the entirety of the story had to be retconned.

I can say that the story for MGS4 is going to be every MGS fan's dream.

The ending especially, had me in tears. Everything about the game is so incredible.


Ahhhhhhhhh!

Oh, and MAJOR SPOILER IMAGE FOLLOWS...

http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/9103/ichatimage1122182147cp1.jpg

FinalEVA
06-08-2008, 07:26 PM
Eh... Kojima puts a bit of his humor in

(SPOILERS YOU'VE BEEN WARNED)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8qwlGJfeYE&eurl=http://ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=144326

TybaltFlux
06-08-2008, 07:42 PM
I'm going into deaf-mode until Thursday morning. Must. not. have. game. spoiled.

BTW, have any of you guys heard of the actual length of the game?

Pliskin
06-08-2008, 07:45 PM
I'm going into deaf-mode until Thursday morning. Must. not. have. game. spoiled.

BTW, have any of you guys heard of the actual length of the game?

I've heard some conflicting reports on that. Supposedly the guide says to get the highest rank at the end of the game, you need to finish it in 5 hours. However, nobody knows to what extend, if that includes watching the cinemas or not, and apparently there is a lot of lateral exploration you can do. I believe it took the gent who beat the game and leaked everything, Paul-H-UK, 48 hours to reach the end for his first play-through. Supposedly he did a 12-hour marathon as some point.

TybaltFlux
06-08-2008, 07:55 PM
48 hours? Nice. Granted, I kinda wanna beat it by Saturday (and I'm factoring very minimal eating, excercise, and in general, sunlight and activity), but unfortunately I have to throw in sleep somewhere in the equation.

We'll figure it out soon enough, I guess, then.

Archelon
06-08-2008, 08:41 PM
It took dabookerman (or whatever his sn is) over at neogaf 21 hours to beat the first time through. He's the one who posted the full ending online.

Pliskin
06-09-2008, 11:12 AM
3 Days.

By the way, be prepared to cry Manly Tears at the ending.

TybaltFlux
06-09-2008, 12:28 PM
I've been calling around to see if anyone broke street date. No luck yet :<. Time to try the Walmart method, i.e., 'Hey you, MGS4, got it? Yeah, sell it to me."

I haven't been this excited for a game since...well...Super Mario Galaxy. Granted that was last year, but uh the excitement was huge and it probably won't be matched again for a long, long time.

Unless they announce a Super Mario RPG2. Then well. Yeah.

FinalEVA
06-09-2008, 07:45 PM
Grr.... Should have avoided the internet more. Had a dumb low-life on another forum PM random very important spoilers about the game to all the members.

/end rant.

Pliskin
06-09-2008, 08:14 PM
Grr.... Should have avoided the internet more. Had a dumb low-life on another forum PM random very important spoilers about the game to all the members.

/end rant.

Sorry to hear that, although, there has been quite a bit of misinformation going around as spoilers, so I wouldn't get too down about it.

TybaltFlux
06-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Snake kills Dumbledore.

FinalEVA
06-10-2008, 12:30 AM
Can't be avoided I suppose (spoilers)...

Games UK gave it a 10/10 and GI gave it 10/10 and 9.75/10. Everyone but Edge and EuroGamer seem to really like it.

Well, less than 48 hours left.

new_ike
06-10-2008, 12:42 AM
Games UK gave it a 10/10 and GI gave it 10/10 and 9.75/10. Everyone but Edge and EuroGamer seem to really like it.


I'd rather there at least be one or two dissenting opinions than 10s across the board. Ever read World War Z? There's a bit there that goes "when 8 of the 9 agencies all agree to the findings, the ninth is obligated to dig deeper and find things out".

FinalEVA
06-10-2008, 02:36 AM
yeah, it does make the 10/10 scores seem more realistic and not so rigged like some games.

ManiacMarshall
06-10-2008, 07:48 AM
See there are ways a game is MEANT to end... and then there are ways the creator jumps the proverbial shark...

LOL NANOMACHINES.

ELFanatic
06-10-2008, 08:05 AM
oh man, I just realized I replied to a really old post. ha ha. oh well, skip. move long. no reason to read this.

WHY OH WHY DID THEY ADD THAT GIRLY-MAN TO METAL GEAR SOLID?
Anywho, we all know that game reviews mean absolutely horse dung. I remember the "Kane and Lynch" ordeal.

Now everyone can stop reading now, i just need to vent a little.

I dont want to buy the damn ps3. School is costing more and more each year and with books costing me several hundred bucks each semester i just dont think i should spent five hundred bucks on an entertainment product when i already have a 360. But i know i will. The sad thing is there are only, like, two good games out for the PS3 (not counting the ones i already have for my 360).

You bring up a good point for me. School is expensive for me too. Worse yet, the game doesn't look that good to me. I LOVED MGS 1 so much I feel like I should play 4 but nothing about this game has impressed that much for me. Here comes vamp, here comes Raiden, Liquid has completely taken over revolver ocelot. All the things that that made MGS 2 a terrible game to me have returned. And the only character I wish to play as in this series is dying off due to advanced aging.

Sorry sorry I'm ranting. Still, despite all that, I might try it out, just because I was such an MGS 1 fan. But I forgot it was exclusive to PS3. So now I have to buy a 500 system for one game when I still have yet to buy Wii or 360. I'm sorry but no.

Pliskin
06-10-2008, 08:20 AM
You bring up a good point for me. School is expensive for me too. Worse yet, the game doesn't look that good to me. I LOVED MGS 1 so much I feel like I should play 4 but nothing about this game has impressed that much for me. Here comes vamp, here comes Raiden, Liquid has completely taken over revolver ocelot. All the things that that made MGS 2 a terrible game to me have returned. And the only character I wish to play as in this series is dying off due to advanced aging.

Just wanted to chime in, all those funky plot points are addressed amazingly well in 4, also, the whole "Liquid taking over Ocelot" thing is quite different from what you think. QUITE different ;-)

Archelon
06-10-2008, 12:06 PM
Just wanted to chime in, all those funky plot points are addressed amazingly well in 4

That's debatable.

Maybe playing through the game will change my opinion, but right now I feel confident in saying this game has the worst story of the series (I've basically spoiled the whole game for myself, including the ending, mind you). I don't know, maybe it'll just be like MGS2, where the story took awhile to really sink in before I could develop a real opinion about it. My initial reaction to MGS2's story, after I first beat it, was "Wow, this was awful." It wasn't until after I had played through it a few more times that I really came to appreciate it all of the layers and nuances of it. Hopefully it'll be the same with MGS4.

But if not, hey, at least the gameplay will be amazing.

Pliskin
06-10-2008, 12:29 PM
That's debatable.

Maybe playing through the game will change my opinion, but right now I feel confident in saying this game has the worst story of the series (I've basically spoiled the whole game for myself, including the ending, mind you). I don't know, maybe it'll just be like MGS2, where the story took awhile to really sink in before I could develop a real opinion about it. My initial reaction to MGS2's story, after I first beat it, was "Wow, this was awful." It wasn't until after I had played through it a few more times that I really came to appreciate it all of the layers and nuances of it. Hopefully it'll be the same with MGS4.

But if not, hey, at least the gameplay will be amazing.

Says the Resident Evil fan. If there's anyone who's not quite qualified for criticizing a story, I'd think it'd be you, LOL. And that was a joke, btw.

I really don't see anything wrong with the plot. All the complaints I've heard have been pretty much from people who aren't really fans of the series (yourself) or are predisposed to dislike it.

The creation of the Patriots, the resulting power struggle, and the shadow-power struggle that happened thereafter seems perfectly reasonable to me. As does the manipulation of a computer system to repeat a specified behavior.

ELFanatic
06-10-2008, 12:46 PM
That's debatable.

Maybe playing through the game will change my opinion, but right now I feel confident in saying this game has the worst story of the series (I've basically spoiled the whole game for myself, including the ending, mind you). I don't know, maybe it'll just be like MGS2, where the story took awhile to really sink in before I could develop a real opinion about it. My initial reaction to MGS2's story, after I first beat it, was "Wow, this was awful." It wasn't until after I had played through it a few more times that I really came to appreciate it all of the layers and nuances of it. Hopefully it'll be the same with MGS4.

But if not, hey, at least the gameplay will be amazing.

Awww that's not good. See MGS 2, unlike for you, never grew on me. I guess I knew it through. I hadn't seen anything that I liked about it. Aside from graphics. You know I think one of the things I miss from MGS is how realistic it was. Sure there was a little fantasy in it but I don't know, somehow it felt more realistic. I don't know why it seemed more realistically plausible to me. But I liked it.

TybaltFlux
06-11-2008, 11:28 PM
8 minute install time. Not bad. -deaduntilthisgameisdone-

4ng31
06-12-2008, 03:02 AM
Just got through the "Frogs".

OMFG...best looking, intense game I've played in YEARS...if not ever...and it's only going to get better :D

FinalEVA
06-12-2008, 03:29 AM
Playing this game right now. It's Fricken AMAZING!!!

If you haven't played it. Get yourself this game and find a PS Triple. This is game is everything next gen should be - gameplay and graphics. Perfect 10 so far.

GyrfalconAH64D
06-12-2008, 04:02 AM
Yeah its unbelievable!

My eyes are having multiple orgasms!

TybaltFlux
06-12-2008, 11:07 AM
Sunny is the cutest character ever.

And this is the best MGS ever.

FLIPINOMAD
06-12-2008, 11:42 AM
couldn't attend midnight launch but picking it up today, can't wait.

jaiitup
06-12-2008, 12:14 PM
I played for 6 hours straight then I had to sleep, I just woke up now.

Pliskin
06-12-2008, 12:23 PM
I'm completely blown away by it, its better than I could've hoped. Holy crap.

The graphics are utterly insane, and the lip-synch is the best I've ever seen in a game. I don't know how people can complain about the cutscenes when they look that gorgeous, just wow.

Oh, and I just got my brand spanking new PS3 today. The gunmetal looks absolutely saucy in the flesh.

ManiacMarshall
06-12-2008, 01:08 PM
Adam's a Wiseman. Cynthia's a Wiseman. Clark's a Wiseman. Donald's a Wiseman. Tom's a Wiseman. Jack's a Wiseman.

DONE.

Quantum9
06-12-2008, 06:54 PM
Good to see the Kojima worshippers are out in force in this thread. I'm pretty sure walking into this with a Mario shirt on would get me lynched.

I think Jeremy Parish hit the nail on the head with his review:

"The MGS4 conundrum is this: The further you play into the game, the less you actually play. Surrendering so much control to make way for movie sequences is galling, especially when the dialogue makes such a big deal about freedom and free will. And it's frustrating that this final chapter of the series begins so well, but ultimately fades -- because once the shock of the nonstop plot revelations wears off, the vanished gameplay leaves a nagging sense of disappointment. Despite this gradual decay, though, MGS4 is absolutely a great game. The second half may lack sorely in comparison to the innovative, immersive brilliance of the first, but only because those early portions reach such inspiring heights."

So enjoy the game, guys. While the "game" lasts.

TybaltFlux
06-12-2008, 07:03 PM
I think that's a semi-unfair assertion, insofar that we expected this from Kojima (see: MGS2), and the gameplay hasn't been completely watered down. Moreover, the cutscenes have a lot of interactive elements, from the simple X-flashbacks and MGS-patented L2's to the whole mission briefing scurrying around. Granted, it's not RE:4 interaction, but at least it's not ugly codec conversations between Raiden and Rosemary bad.

Plus, the game begins with about 30 seconds of gameplay, then a montage of videos interrupting you left and right. The good gaming for me has been in the 2/5ths and 3/5ths of the game, and for a game that's supposed to connect all the stories together, I'd definately want a lot of story. Add to the fact that other 'shooters' of the sort, like COD4, can be beaten in far less time than this, then the amount of actual gameplay time, coupled with the necessary cutscenes (at least I believe they're necessary), the gorgeous graphics, the musical score, and so on makes the game, 'the game', and not just the gameplay elements (as backwards thinking as that might sound, we've gotten much worse stuff than this, not just from Kojima, but video games in general lately- so why not consider all elements, both active and passive as part of gameplay, instead of just the actual active parts?)

Granted, guilty as charged- MSG fanboy defending his games, but what-ev. Some kid was woring a Godot shirt at the midnight launch, so I think people would of been alright with a Mario shirt.

Now a Sam Fischer shirt...THAT'S a whole different story.

Pincer
06-12-2008, 07:11 PM
I'll be picking mine up from work tomorrow. It's payday so I'll have the cash to fork out for the collector's edition. :D

Of course I'm not done with MGS 3 yet, but jumping ahead won't hurt a bit.

Archelon
06-12-2008, 08:28 PM
Well, I just beat the second act, and I have to perfectly honest, I'm not really feeling it right now. I'll go into specifics later when I feel like typing a lot, but just a couple of quick points:

1) People have been swearing up and down that this game is no more of a shooter than the previous entries in the series, but it really is. A lot more. You can still sneak your way around, but it's a heck of a lot easier to just go in guns ablazing this time around.

That in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the actual shooting mechanics, while obviously "inspired" by games like Gears of War and Resident Evil 4, just can't compete with those games. They're solid (no pun intended), just not spectacular. But maybe that's an unfair comparison, as Gears and RE4 focus solely on shooting, so their shooting mechanics would have to be top notch, while MGS could get away with less.

2) The decreased use of codec conversations is a double-edged sword so far. I've always seen the codec conversations as a reasonable alternative to actual cutscenes where the characters would just be sitting there talking to each other and doing nothing else anyway. That way, you're not missing anything even if you can only see their heads.

Take away the codec conversations in MGS4, and what do you have? Cutscenes where the characters are just sitting around doing practically nothing while they talk to each other. Sure, it's nice to be able to see the whole environment and the characters while they're talking, but it just seems superficial, considering they don't actually do anything to justify the use of a full-fledged cutscene.

Heh, I guess I ended up writing quite a bit anyway, eh? Ah well.

Raiden is awesome, by the way.

Eurobeat King
06-12-2008, 11:24 PM
Take away the codec conversations in MGS4, and what do you have? Cutscenes where the characters are just sitting around doing practically nothing while they talk to each other. Sure, it's nice to be able to see the whole environment and the characters while they're talking, but it just seems superficial, considering they don't actually do anything to justify the use of a full-fledged cutscene.

This is what I've been doing tonight, since I am saving $$ for the summer cons (AX, Comic-Con, Otakon) i can't get a PS3 & MGS4 now. So call me lazy, but I'm enjoying watching the cut-scenes on YouTube. :razz: I like it so far, and it'll be nice to see people cosplay the new characters, hopefully at the cons I'll be attending. :)

mirrorsaber
06-13-2008, 12:23 AM
Even though I didn't get into the MGS franchise until a year ago when Snake was announced for Brawl. This game is so much fun to play. First I was scared but now I got the hang of it. ^_^

4ng31
06-13-2008, 12:25 AM
OMG...Laughing Octopus...EPIC.

Totally making that costume...seriously...awesome...

Totally geeking over this game btw...just in case you didn't notice...

TybaltFlux
06-13-2008, 02:38 AM
Clocking in the finish at 16:58. The game was fantastic. Worthy of 10's all around, but I'll defend that point/do a little review later on, when I haven't just spent a day eating junk food and ingesting caffeine in order to stay awake and get through this awesomeness of a game.

P.S. I don't think they explained Raiden's/Sunny's connection, did they? I thought they were going to elaborate on the whole nanomachine thingie or whatever that went on between them back from MGS2 but, unless I wasn't paying attention, nada eh?

OMG...Laughing Octopus...EPIC.

Totally making that costume...seriously...awesome...

Totally geeking over this game btw...just in case you didn't notice...

DUDE, if you do that, I'll freak out man. That would be SO amazingly awesome to see done as a costume.

Pliskin
06-13-2008, 09:03 AM
This is what I've been doing tonight, since I am saving $$ for the summer cons (AX, Comic-Con, Otakon) i can't get a PS3 & MGS4 now. So call me lazy, but I'm enjoying watching the cut-scenes on YouTube. :razz: I like it so far, and it'll be nice to see people cosplay the new characters, hopefully at the cons I'll be attending. :)

The cutscenes are actually a real treat to watch on a good HDTV. I've been following this game closely ever since it was announced, and I still wasn't prepared for how good everything would look in-motion.

That being said...

Its the best game I've ever played.

4ng31
06-13-2008, 09:50 AM
The cutscenes are actually a real treat to watch on a good HDTV. I've been following this game closely ever since it was announced, and I still wasn't prepared for how good everything would look in-motion.

I have to second this...for some reason, watching the trailers and teasers on gametrailers and such do not do the cut-scenes justice at all. Like, for instance, I watched that "Frogs" trailer many times before release...and when I finally saw and played through the entire event on the PS3, it is much, much better in real time.

Eurobeat King
06-13-2008, 10:04 AM
I watched that "Frogs" trailer many times before release...and when I finally saw and played through the entire event on the PS3, it is much, much better in real time.

Question from those (like me) who are watching the cutscenes but not actually playing the game. hehe

Do you actually fight against the frogs or is there just that cutscene where you & Meryl's team encounter them?

That would be cool if you cosplayed as one of the new bosses, C. Yay for an awesome-choice for crossplay, huh? ;)

ELFanatic
06-13-2008, 11:02 AM
Well, I just beat the second act, and I have to perfectly honest, I'm not really feeling it right now. I'll go into specifics later when I feel like typing a lot, but just a couple of quick points:

1) People have been swearing up and down that this game is no more of a shooter than the previous entries in the series, but it really is. A lot more. You can still sneak your way around, but it's a heck of a lot easier to just go in guns ablazing this time around.

That in and of itself isn't necessarily a bad thing, but the actual shooting mechanics, while obviously "inspired" by games like Gears of War and Resident Evil 4, just can't compete with those games. They're solid (no pun intended), just not spectacular. But maybe that's an unfair comparison, as Gears and RE4 focus solely on shooting, so their shooting mechanics would have to be top notch, while MGS could get away with less.

2) The decreased use of codec conversations is a double-edged sword so far. I've always seen the codec conversations as a reasonable alternative to actual cutscenes where the characters would just be sitting there talking to each other and doing nothing else anyway. That way, you're not missing anything even if you can only see their heads.

Take away the codec conversations in MGS4, and what do you have? Cutscenes where the characters are just sitting around doing practically nothing while they talk to each other. Sure, it's nice to be able to see the whole environment and the characters while they're talking, but it just seems superficial, considering they don't actually do anything to justify the use of a full-fledged cutscene.

Heh, I guess I ended up writing quite a bit anyway, eh? Ah well.

Raiden is awesome, by the way.

I actually value this review a lot. My only beef is that even though I love shootem action games, I'm just tired of these franchises being converted into a watered down action game. This may work for MGS for me just because I hated the hour and a half you waited for the guards to leave but I did enjoy sneaking up until then. So I don't know, I'm split.

Pliskin
06-13-2008, 11:45 AM
Question from those (like me) who are watching the cutscenes but not actually playing the game. hehe

Do you actually fight against the frogs or is there just that cutscene where you & Meryl's team encounter them?

That would be cool if you cosplayed as one of the new bosses, C. Yay for an awesome-choice for crossplay, huh? ;)

Short answer, yes you fight them. The game has a cutscene where Rat Patrol and Snake all get ready, and then it gives you control and you all basically fight your way from the top level of a building to the bottom in an attempt to escape. Definitely one of the better scenes.

Also, I have to throw this in, but playing it through now the second time, and if you have prior experience stealthing, its immensely easier. Just cut down my 1st Act time to less than an hour sneaking. Also, if you're not playing on a tougher difficulty, running and gunning is a viable tactic. On the higher difficulties it isn't. (One shot from Octopus would take about half my life on Big Boss hard, for example). So you really have to pick your engagements.

The 3rd-person shooting isn't as Gears of War cover-based as I would like and the addition of a shooting from cover mechanic or a blindfire mechanic would've been welcome. But it IS a step up from RE4, due to the ability to move while shooting, and to strafe as well, also to clear rooms and have your weapon at-the-ready.

I think the complaints about the story growing more linear as the game continues might need to be tempered a bit with how people view stories in-general. I found myself playing the game to find out "what happens next" not "because the gameplay was so awesome". That's not to say the game isn't epicly fun to play, but my first playthrough was fueled more by wanting to know what happens (and I had already spoiled myself on a LOT of things for the game)

Its best summed-up as, if you liked other Metal Gear games, you will probably LOVE this. If you don't you might want to try it.

The splitscreens are an amazing idea. if you've beaten the game you'll know about the instances I'm takling about microwave hallway. Holy crap. Moments like that are what make Metal Gear my favorite series. There's just so much in the game to gush about, LOL.

TybaltFlux
06-13-2008, 12:49 PM
My favorite splitscreen scene: RAIDEN VERSUS VAMP, OMG, how awesome was that fight? I couldnt' concetrate on destroying the Gekko because of it .

I wrote a review, and I tried posting but it didn't go through. Is there size-limits on text? Might be too long ;p.

ManiacMarshall
06-13-2008, 02:19 PM
This game has me doing more situps than any one man should...

I've also ordered Steph to go get me old man makeup...

Pliskin
06-13-2008, 02:56 PM
This game has me doing more situps than any one man should...

I've also ordered Steph to go get me old man makeup...

HA! Don't suppose you'd be interested in a little "fist fight" at Otakon? ;-)

4ng31
06-13-2008, 06:50 PM
Do you actually fight against the frogs or is there just that cutscene where you & Meryl's team encounter them?

That would be cool if you cosplayed as one of the new bosses, C. Yay for an awesome-choice for crossplay, huh? ;)

Excellent choice lol...

But ya, like Pliskin said, you get the warning they are coming, the cut scene...and the fight...which like I said earlier, is actually pretty tense. So yes, you fight them all...lol.

FinalEVA
06-13-2008, 07:33 PM
I just got through the first boss fight with the
Octopus

I think this just might be the best game that I ever played. Doing that battle in 5.1 surround sound was absolutely amazing.

In a time where people have been saying that good graphics are bad for games, Kojima defies its. This game shows that having advanced hardware can improve the gaming experience more than just making things look prettier. I really don't think I can give this less than a 10/10 so far.

Reports came in that it sold 300k in Japan the first day (PS3 bundles not included), which is REALLY GOOD. Inline with other MGS games. Considering the state of gaming over there, I'm really happy it did so well.

If there is anything that could convince you to invest in an HDTV, surround sound system, and a PS3, this is it.

Archelon
06-13-2008, 10:41 PM
With all the praise this game has been getting, it looks like it's up to me to help balance things out.

No, I kid.

In all seriousness, though, the game still just isn't clicking with me, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Maybe it's because it feels so different from the other Metal Gear games, but even that doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about how different Resident Evil 4 felt from the previous games in that series.

The thing is, I absolutely loved MGS3. It's easily my favorite game in the series. From a mechanics standpoint, MGS4 is heads and shoulders above MGS3, but I'm just not feeling that same sense of awe in MGS4 as I did when I first booted up MGS3. It's really perplexing.

I almost wonder, as crazy as it may sound, if it's those very mechanics that have taken some of the magic away. It's almost as if, by adopting a more "contemporary" control scheme, MGS4 has lost its identity, or at least some of it. Sure, it still has the overwrought dialogue and lengthy cutscenes, but during actual gameplay, it feels like every other generic third person shooter out there these days.

I'm well aware of the irony in this post. I'm essentially using the same argument that so many other people have used for why they didn't like Resident Evil 4 compared to the previous games in the series, and I've defended its merits on many occasions. Realistically, for all intents and purposes, I should love MGS4, and yet, I don't. And it's not just for the sake of argument, either.

It's not a bad game by any means. I've enjoyed playing it thus far (I just started the final act), and I look forward to seeing it to its conclusion. Having said that, it's not quite "holy freakin' crap amazing" like I expected it to be. Perhaps that's the problem. My expectations were too high. Or maybe they weren't too high so much as they were the wrong expectations. Who knows.

Having said that, allow me to discuss some things I do like about this game.

For one thing, I love the Drebin Shop. And speaking of the Resident Evil series, I'd love to see something similar in RE5, ableit with a few alterations to suit RE5's gameplay. For example, it would probably be best to remove the option to purchase ammo. Keep the upgrade system from RE4, but throw in the attachment options from MGS4. I also really like Drebin as a character. In fact, I'd cosplay him if I had the right skin color.

The cutscenes where Raiden cuts loose are amazing. If every cutscene in this game was like those, I don't think I'd have any complaints about their length. Similar to the cutscenes from Devil May Cry 3 and 4, I could watch these over and over. I certainly hope there are more like them before the game ends.

This last bit is sorta spoilerish, so I'll tag it. I'll be discussing one of the places you visit later in the game and a certain event that occurs there.

Okay, making your way to the entrance of Shadow Moses as "The Best is Yet to Come" plays in the background is easily the best moment in the game so far. Or rather, it would have been if you didn't get to pilot REX and fight a RAY manned by Ocelot. Now that was epic. Holding down the Triangle button causes REX to rear its head and let out a roar while Snake yells "LIQUIIIIIIIID!!!" Classic.

Pliskin
06-13-2008, 10:58 PM
In a time where people have been saying that good graphics are bad for games, Kojima defies its. This game shows that having advanced hardware can improve the gaming experience more than just making things look prettier. I really don't think I can give this less than a 10/10 so far.


I've been shouting about the importance of graphics from the rooftops for a while now, namely, how much more it can add to immersion in a game, and subsequently, the entire gaming experience. My g/f's been playing through the game and she wishes there was a demo theater where you could just watch the cutscenes, I wish there was too, some of them are just talking heads, and they're absolutely breathtaking.

TybaltFlux
06-13-2008, 11:04 PM
Okay, making your way to the entrance of Shadow Moses as "The Best is Yet to Come" plays in the background is easily the best moment in the game so far. Or rather, it would have been if you didn't get to pilot REX and fight a RAY manned by Ocelot. Now that was epic. Holding down the Triangle button causes REX to rear its head and let out a roar while Snake yells "LIQUIIIIIIIID!!!" Classic.

That whole Act, from the moment you play through the original Shadow Moses play, to the mech-fight, to the absolutely awesome "'FOX' 'DIIIIE!' 'SYKE!'" interchange was the epitome of Metal Gear service. Having said that, it was obviously my favorite part of the game. And Raiden was such a freaking beast!

vasher
06-13-2008, 11:19 PM
Bought a PS3 and MGS4 this afternoon, played through the first act and a bit of the second.

Wow are these some long cutscenes. Two hours or so into it, I was fairly convinced it was a COD4 clone with a bit of sneaking involved. Very much happier now that I'm in foliage. MGS3 = still best MGS game yet. I'm having a bit of trouble adjusting to the controls- not sure if it's the game's fault or mine for having gotten so used to button smashing with the DMC/KH series. Graphics are awesome, and I expect that they'll look much better once I scrounge up an HD cable.

Quantum9
06-14-2008, 01:14 AM
I've been shouting about the importance of graphics from the rooftops for a while now, namely, how much more it can add to immersion in a game, and subsequently, the entire gaming experience. My g/f's been playing through the game and she wishes there was a demo theater where you could just watch the cutscenes, I wish there was too, some of them are just talking heads, and they're absolutely breathtaking.

I'm not saying that I don't like good graphics in a game, or that they don't add to the immersion. It's just that making a game PLAY well should be the primary focus of any game developer, and then you can go onto other things. The MGS series has always had amazing gameplay, but I've always felt it is often an afterthought compared to the cinematic feel the game is supposed to convey. I recently read a troubling quote from the NYC midnight launch of the game:

"The game’s dramatic, like a movie — not just your simple Tetris or Mario type of game.”

Now, based on what I know of MGS fans in this thread, I bet you'd all agree with this statement, right? More or less, the game's cinematic qualities make is superior to "simpler" games like Tetris or Mario. While Tetris I can agree with, I found Mario Galaxy to be the best game of last year due to exactly the opposite reasons. No, the game was not cinematic in the slightest. But it had graphics that rival most 360/PS3 games, and most importantly, it was FUN. I ENJOYED PLAYING IT. It was the purity of that fact that really made me enjoy myself.

Now, I can see where a lot of you guy's well-known Nintendo hate is coming from, as you all feel that Nintendo's not just a lack of...but an outright refusal to create cinematic content is an affront to the industry. I respectfully disagree. Nintendo offers games for the gamer that doesn't care about those sort of things, and just wants to play a fun game. Pliskin, when you say these things, it makes it clear that graphics are important to you, but let me just let it known that it isn't important to everyone. And I don't see how that's a problem.

Eurobeat King
06-14-2008, 01:42 AM
one thing I like is when certain characters are mentioned or perform some kind of action, when you hit a button (x) you quickly see a flashback to an artwork-sketch or a screen-shot from the previous games. :)

It reminded me when I was watching both Stallone films "Rocky Balboa" and "Rambo" how they show quick-flashbacks to the original films. Nice way to go back to the first film (or in this sense, game) of how the series got started.

One good cosplay-pair that would be nice to see would be :

Eva & Big Momma.. talk about your time-jump!

Pliskin
06-14-2008, 02:04 AM
I'm not saying that I don't like good graphics in a game, or that they don't add to the immersion. It's just that making a game PLAY well should be the primary focus of any game developer, and then you can go onto other things. The MGS series has always had amazing gameplay, but I've always felt it is often an afterthought compared to the cinematic feel the game is supposed to convey. I recently read a troubling quote from the NYC midnight launch of the game:

"The game’s dramatic, like a movie — not just your simple Tetris or Mario type of game.”

I definitely agree with it.

Now, based on what I know of MGS fans in this thread, I bet you'd all agree with this statement, right? More or less, the game's cinematic qualities make is superior to "simpler" games like Tetris or Mario. While Tetris I can agree with, I found Mario Galaxy to be the best game of last year due to exactly the opposite reasons. No, the game was not cinematic in the slightest. But it had graphics that rival most 360/PS3 games, and most importantly, it was FUN. I ENJOYED PLAYING IT. It was the purity of that fact that really made me enjoy myself.

That's just the difference though. A game is still capable of being fun, having great graphics, and having a story and character development which makes one genuinely care about the characters.

Now, I can see where a lot of you guy's well-known Nintendo hate is coming from, as you all feel that Nintendo's not just a lack of...but an outright refusal to create cinematic content is an affront to the industry. I respectfully disagree. Nintendo offers games for the gamer that doesn't care about those sort of things, and just wants to play a fun game. Pliskin, when you say these things, it makes it clear that graphics are important to you, but let me just let it known that it isn't important to everyone. And I don't see how that's a problem.

As I stated before. I liken it to having two racing games. Both have the same physics, the same cars, everything about the "gameplay" so to speak (I hate using that word, since there's really no definition for what it is, its some pie in the sky ideal). One however, has photorealistic graphics. The other, has, we'll say, PS2-era graphics. Which is going to be a better experience?

And personally, its not the "fun" or lack of cinematic or dramatic flare in the type of game you describe which turns me off, its just that I have to genuinely care about the characters. That's where most Nintendo games fall down for me.

ManiacMarshall
06-14-2008, 09:31 AM
one thing I like is when certain characters are mentioned or perform some kind of action, when you hit a button (x) you quickly see a flashback to an artwork-sketch or a screen-shot from the previous games. :)

It reminded me when I was watching both Stallone films "Rocky Balboa" and "Rambo" how they show quick-flashbacks to the original films. Nice way to go back to the first film (or in this sense, game) of how the series got started.

One good cosplay-pair that would be nice to see would be :

Eva & Big Momma.. talk about your time-jump!

I'll be honest about that part... I kinda facepalmed. I mean I KNEW it was coming but... I still facepalmed... like...why?

And now I'm a little more ok with the ending...

And yes Cam... I will totally inject steroids into your neck.

TybaltFlux
06-14-2008, 10:34 AM
I'm not saying that I don't like good graphics in a game, or that they don't add to the immersion. It's just that making a game PLAY well should be the primary focus of any game developer, and then you can go onto other things. The MGS series has always had amazing gameplay, but I've always felt it is often an afterthought compared to the cinematic feel the game is supposed to convey. I recently read a troubling quote from the NYC midnight launch of the game:

"The game’s dramatic, like a movie — not just your simple Tetris or Mario type of game.”

Now, based on what I know of MGS fans in this thread, I bet you'd all agree with this statement, right? More or less, the game's cinematic qualities make is superior to "simpler" games like Tetris or Mario. While Tetris I can agree with, I found Mario Galaxy to be the best game of last year due to exactly the opposite reasons. No, the game was not cinematic in the slightest. But it had graphics that rival most 360/PS3 games, and most importantly, it was FUN. I ENJOYED PLAYING IT. It was the purity of that fact that really made me enjoy myself.

Now, I can see where a lot of you guy's well-known Nintendo hate is coming from, as you all feel that Nintendo's not just a lack of...but an outright refusal to create cinematic content is an affront to the industry. I respectfully disagree. Nintendo offers games for the gamer that doesn't care about those sort of things, and just wants to play a fun game. Pliskin, when you say these things, it makes it clear that graphics are important to you, but let me just let it known that it isn't important to everyone. And I don't see how that's a problem.

It's funny, because I find the Metal Gear series and the Mario series (the normal platformer, not including the Kart, Tennis, Party, Banjo, etc. series) to be the dual towers of video gaming.

I gotta agree with a lot that Pliskin said- MGS is awesome because of the character development, which is aided by not only the graphics, but also music and ambience and of course, gameplay. In the case of a game like Galaxy, there is no character development (I won't even try to make an argument for Rosalina because that's silly), and the nice graphics are a completely optional touch, even though they were pretty- Galaxy is about the raw gameplay. Granted, something that looked like Super Mario 64 would have been harsh on the eyes nowadays, with the jagged polygonal characters, but that's just semantics- the New Super Mario Bros. is evidence that you don't need great graphics for a great game.

So you have Galaxy, which I also thought was GOTY for 2007, and you have MGS4, which (I'll be mighty shocked if I have to take this back) is probably GOTY for 2008), and you compare them both. The latter has the best technical graphics and story, but when you look at the musical score, ambience (I keep using that word to describe the appropriateness of setting location and other graphical items), and gameplay, there is no clear cut winner. What makes them both pinnacles of gaming, IMO, is that although they differ so much, they do what they want to do and they do it right.

MGS wants to create a story-driven game, so it needs to have a powerful method of relaying story. Nowadays, that's not books or anything strictly literary like that, but completely visual, with movies and television being the most popular sources of media.

Mario games want to deliver a gaming experience that can be picked up the moment you get it and that is generally linear, yet the fact that it remains consistent and unchanging attracts a lot of people to the gameplay. The gameplay is so top-notch that it doesn't need updated graphics because it's just that raw of an experience. In this case, the rawness of the gameplay is what makes it great, and so it doesn't need whacked out super graphics to have Mario jumping on a Goomba.

So yeah, all I'm saying is MGS = Mario in forms of gaming, and there doesn't need to be any > or < just because both games do what they want to do it and they do it well. It'd be like comparing Tetris or Pacman against each other- it's two completely different games, and the graphically superior one is Pacman, but both provide a great experience and they both do what they wanna do and they do it right. Those seeking a puzzle prefer Tetris, those that prefer scurrying around pick Pacman. Those that prefer story and tactical espionage choose MGS. Those that prefer linear adventure gameplay take on Mario.

I, for one, like all four ;p.

Archelon
06-14-2008, 01:32 PM
Now that I've beaten the game, I can thankfully say I feel much better about the story now having actually played through it from start to finish. There are still a few sore spots, though. I'm going to list a few general comments and questions, but I'll spoiler it all, as I'll be spoiling some pretty big things. You've been warned.

First and foremost, I still don't like how they explained Ocelot's "possession." I know it makes it seem more realistic, but what was the point of making The Sorrow his father then? If I believed Kojima was this forward thinking (I don't), I'd say The Sorrow was just a red herring to throw people off. I'm not so sure that's the case, though. It seems more like Kojima had originally intended Ocelot's heritage to be the explanation, but then changed his mind as he wrote the story for MGS4. Ah well.

I do like how they explained Vamp's "immortality." However, I'm confused as to why he was the only member of Dead Cell to receive those super nanomachines. I suppose you could assume the Patriots wanted only him to survive the Big Shell incident, but there's no telling why. We also don't get any indication as to why he joined up with Ocelot, what his motivations were. He's just there.

Did anyone else besides me think the B&B unit was really stupid? The boss fights were fun, but I mean the whole mythology behind their existence. One of my criticisms of the Cobra Unit in MGS3 was that they had practically no backstory whatsoever compared to the bosses in MGS1 and MGS2.

However, the B&B unit is just the opposite. They have a backstory, but it's not explained until after you kill them, and it's just kind of like, "Oh, yeah, we forgot to tell you something..." I got the impression even Kojima struggled to explain why the four women became what they did. Compared to the bosses from MGS1 and MGS2, I thought the B&B unit's backstories were incredibly hackneyed.

I guess one could make the argument that they're bosses who must be killed to progress to the next section of the game and, therefore, I'm not supposed to care about them, but they just felt like an afterthought. Much like the Cobra Unit before them, there was no emotional connection to make me feel guilty when I beat them. As I said about Vamp, they were just there.

Now, got a couple of questions regarding Raiden. I know at some point between the events of MGS2 and MGS4, Raiden had his skull and spine surgically implanted into a cybernetic body, resulting in the new Gray Fox. How did Sunny not die from this operation? In MGS2, it was explained that if Raiden died, Sunny would die as well. There was some connection between their nanomachines, if I recall correctly.

I know Raiden is still technically alive, but he would've been clinically dead during the period between when his head and spine were removed from his real body and then implanted into the cybernetic body. Or are we to just assume that his head and spine were somehow kept alive while separated? Or his body? Man, this is giving me a headache.

Also, is that supposed to be his real body at the end of the game? Or is it the robotic body minus the exoskeleton? Or is it a new robotic body entirely that just looks like a real human body? A little more explanation here would've been much appreciated. Considering how in depth Kojima went into everything else, I was surprised to see him gloss over pretty much everything in regards to Raiden.

And man, talk about your deus ex machinas. Big Boss might as well have been Kojima himself arriving to tell the player how everything went down. While it was definitely cool to see Big Boss again, it really felt like Kojima had no idea how to properly end the game, as there were still several loose ends that needed to be tied up, so he figured, "Ah, what the heck, why not just throw Big Boss in there and have him explain everything. Everyone will be so psyched to see Big Boss again they won't care about how ridiculous and contrived this plot device is."

So, uh, why exactly didn't Big Boss explain all of this stuff to Snake back at Outer Heaven, or even Zanzibarland? I know the real world answer, obviously, but in the game world, wouldn't it have made things a lot easier if Big Boss had just told Snake outright that he was sent by the Patriots to eliminate Big Boss? He obviously knew back then, unless I missed something, which is a distinct possibility.

Another question. Was the original FOXDIE also meant to kill the original members of the Patriots, or was it just a coincidence that it killed SIGINT? If it was meant to kill the original members of the Patriots, are we to assume that Baker was also a founding member? Also, why didn't it kill Ocelot back at Shadow Moses, too (this is assuming it was intended to kill the original members, I mean)? Was that because the Patriots thought he was still on their side?

Finally, the shootout between Meryl, Johnny, and the Haven troopers reeked of Pirates of the Caribbean 3.

If I think of any other questions (and I'm sure I will), I'll post them. If anyone could answer the questions I do have, I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks.

Eurobeat King
06-14-2008, 01:57 PM
Continuing to watch the video's, I have to agree that:

watching the bosses taking forever to curl-up and die, and then comes the long story-telling about each one by Drebin is quite repetetive & tiring.. :razz: Still, it'll be interesting to see if people cosplay as the bosses with the armor, or afterwards in just their body-suits.

and man, talk about distracting:

the split-screen action where you control Snake as he fights off the Gecko's, while Raiden is fighting Vamp.

TybaltFlux
06-14-2008, 02:08 PM
Archelon-



The Raiden thing pissed me off too, insofar that I wanted more story behind Sunny and Raiden. Though I'm sure Metal Gear Raiden (calling it now) will explain some more. Him having his body transposed can probably be explained by the fact that Solidus was technically dead, but still alive, as his cells were dead, so I guess we can assume that the technology is capable of keeping even a head alive (hi Futurama).

Also, the whole SIGINT thing probably doesn't have an explanation, just cause that was dumb and unnecessary retcon (his and Johnny's Shadow Moses origin being the only retcons I feel annoyed over).

I also think that the Sorrow was a red herring, because we didn't get any confirmation about Occy being connected to him, and it doesn't seem to be logical for Kojima to make up the new Liquid Ocelot background when he had an already capable one in mind.

As far as Vamp goes- who knows. Maybe after Occy got Naomi, he used her and her 'immortality' as a way to blackmail Vamp into joining him. Seems plausible.



And EBK, I agree, MOST DISTRACTING PART EVER.

Archelon
06-14-2008, 02:09 PM
and man, talk about distracting:

the split-screen action where you control Snake as he fights off the Gecko's, while Raiden is fighting Vamp.

That's one of the things I wish was a separate cutscene.

The fight between Vamp and Raiden is so awesome, I had trouble focusing on fighting the GEKKOs. I had to watch the fight online after beating it so I could actually pay attention to what was going on between Raiden and Vamp.

Archelon-



The Raiden thing pissed me off too, insofar that I wanted more story behind Sunny and Raiden. Though I'm sure Metal Gear Raiden (calling it now) will explain some more. Him having his body transposed can probably be explained by the fact that Solidus was technically dead, but still alive, as his cells were dead, so I guess we can assume that the technology is capable of keeping even a head alive (hi Futurama).

Also, the whole SIGINT thing probably doesn't have an explanation, just cause that was dumb and unnecessary retcon (his and Johnny's Shadow Moses origin being the only retcons I feel annoyed over).

I also think that the Sorrow was a red herring, because we didn't get any confirmation about Occy being connected to him, and it doesn't seem to be logical for Kojima to make up the new Liquid Ocelot background when he had an already capable one in mind.

As far as Vamp goes- who knows. Maybe after Occy got Naomi, he used her and her 'immortality' as a way to blackmail Vamp into joining him. Seems plausible.



The thing is, we know The Sorrow is Ocelot's father. It was confirmed in MGS3 by EVA and, later, The Boss herself. They don't make any mention of it in MGS4, perhaps so as not to confuse players, since they would essentially be saying, "Ocelot was taken over by Liquid's spirit, because Ocelot inherited his father's ability to conjure the souls of fallen soldiers," only to reveal later that that wasn't the case at all.

Then again, no one, aside from the player (and probably the Philosophers), knew that Ocelot was the son of The Boss and The Sorrow. EVA just knew that Ocelot was the son of some "legendary soldier" and that he was born on the battlefield and the C-section left a snake-shaped scar on his mother's upper body. She never knew that The Boss had the snake-shaped scar.

I suppose Big Boss may have eventually figured out that Ocelot was The Boss' son, though if he did, I suspect it wasn't until much later, as, well, he was kinda dense in MGS3.

Regardless, it is ironic that Ocelot basically followed in his mother's footsteps. He'll go down in history as one of the world's greatest criminals (not that he didn't do some horrible stuff as it is), when in reality he was one of its greatest heroes.

Eurobeat King
06-14-2008, 03:10 PM
haha again, watching more videos, another thing I noticed:

Is Kojima picking up some of the traits that Itagaki uses from DOA? :D I'm just noticing a lot of @$$-shots, like Mei Ling's mission-briefing scene, or when the bosses die. No disrespect to either gentleman, but I'm seeing a lot more fanservice in this game, which ISN'T a bad thing.. haha

Pliskin
06-14-2008, 03:32 PM
haha again, watching more videos, another thing I noticed:

Is Kojima picking up some of the traits that Itagaki uses from DOA? :D I'm just noticing a lot of @$$-shots, like Mei Ling's mission-briefing scene, or when the bosses die. No disrespect to either gentleman, but I'm seeing a lot more fanservice in this game, which ISN'T a bad thing.. haha

Heh, Kojima's always been like that. There's actually a part when you first meet Naomi where...
Snake drops his cigarette while she's sitting down, and he bends over to get it and tries to look up her skirt. If you press L1 at the time, you see what he sees.

Archelon
06-14-2008, 03:57 PM
It doesn't stop there.

When talking to Rose, shake the controller and see what happens.

So, uh, why is Kojima credited as the Voice of God during the end credits? Clearly I missed something.

TybaltFlux
06-14-2008, 07:10 PM
It doesn't stop there.

When talking to Rose, shake the controller and see what happens.

So, uh, why is Kojima credited as the Voice of God during the end credits? Clearly I missed something.

LOL, I didn't get that either but it fits Kojima's ego.

I think we both missed somethign during the Church scene with Eva, cause I couldn't remember hearing Kojima's voice anywhere in the game. That, or he's just missing with us.

4ng31
06-14-2008, 07:11 PM
Finished.

Loved it.

One of the best I've ever played.

Also:

FUCKING PSYCHO MANTIS IS IN THIS GAME!!! I geeked out big time...

Archelon
06-14-2008, 07:18 PM
Also:

FUCKING PSYCHO MANTIS IS IN THIS GAME!!! I geeked out big time...

"YES! VIBRATION IS BAAAAAAACK!!!"

4ng31
06-14-2008, 07:24 PM
"YES! VIBRATION IS BAAAAAAACK!!!"

O, I laughed pretty hard at that whole scene...I'm still using Six Axis :p

Archelon
06-14-2008, 07:30 PM
O, I laughed pretty hard at that whole scene...I'm still using Six Axis :p

What does he say if you're using the SIXAXIS?

4ng31
06-14-2008, 07:52 PM
What does he say if you're using the SIXAXIS?

Something along the lines of...WHAT? ...and then a female voice says no more tricks (or some sexual innuendo) for you and he floats away...I'll replay it here soon to be more specific.

*Edit*

WHAT? NO VIBRATION EITHER?

(Female Voice) No more massages for you...

EXsoldierSNAKE
06-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Hey if any of you guys can do screen captures from the game, could you post up a pic of Snake wearing the "young" face camo? I'm wanting to get my hair cut like how it looks here and can't find any pictures of it

thanks

Pliskin
06-15-2008, 11:24 AM
Hey if any of you guys can do screen captures from the game, could you post up a pic of Snake wearing the "young" face camo? I'm wanting to get my hair cut like how it looks here and can't find any pictures of it

thanks


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/GTpics/MIDDLEEASTREDZONE.jpg

Did I mention there's a screenshot option in the game? LOL

vasher
06-15-2008, 02:23 PM
Finished!

First off- why, oh why does this not have a theater mode? There are epic cutscenes that really deserve to be viewed again and again, and it's a big hassle to play through the game or keep separate saves just to see them.

Like other some other people, I also thought that the set of bosses

seemed very superficial. And the death scenes started grating a little. Crazy girl starts gyrating while cam zooms over anatomy of interest, curls up and stone-ifies in exact same way, cue Drebin's tacked-on Tragic Backstory (tm). What I did like was how they echoed back to the MGS baddies.

Psycho Mantis and his vibratory issues! <3 <3

Vamp's I liked. Once I figured out what to do after "killing" him for the twenty-eth time. IF ONLY I COULD HAVE ACTUALLY PAID ATTENTION INSTEAD OF FIGHTING GEKKO.

Raiden is probably the most badass character in this game. Stopping Outer Haven from ramming into Snake? HOLY CRAP.

Still hate Rose with a fiery passion.

Relationship between Otacon and Naomi seemed... rushed, and I leave it at that.

Ending fight(s) with Liquid/Ocelot were awesome and touching and everything they should have been and I kinda feel bad for Ocelot.

Big Boss's lengthy appearance didn't make a whole lot of sense (hell, the whole series didn't make any sense), and he went on about half-an hour too long, but this:

"I never thought of you as a son - but I always respected you as a soldier. And a man."

made everything right.

Mostly, I'm left with a very strong urge to cosplay Vamp. :geek:

4ng31
06-15-2008, 03:00 PM
...or keep separate saves just to see them.

Totally did this...lol. Every. Single. Save Point.

Archelon
06-15-2008, 03:18 PM
So, I'm on my second playthrough now, and I have to say, backstories notwithstanding, the boss battles themselves just aren't that good. I mean, they're fun, yeah, but MGS3's boss battles completely blow them out of the water. Overall, I think MGS3 is still my favorite game in the series.

4ng31
06-15-2008, 03:24 PM
So, I'm on my second playthrough now, and I have to say, backstories notwithstanding, the boss battles themselves just aren't that good. I mean, they're fun, yeah, but MGS3's boss battles completely blow them out of the water. Overall, I think MGS3 is still my favorite game in the series.

The only boss fight I didn't really enjoy was Raging Raven.

It was just bad.

But in defense, playing through a second time basically defeats the mystery of figuring out how to effectively fight them. Even back to MGS, the Psycho Mantis fight is only good the first time you play it...because after that, you know how exactly to defeat him and the novelty is lost...much like it is here.

EXsoldierSNAKE
06-15-2008, 03:36 PM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y27/GTpics/MIDDLEEASTREDZONE.jpg

Did I mention there's a screenshot option in the game? LOL

Thanks but do you have one with just the young camo without the bandanna? I want to be able to print the pic out and take it with me when I get the haircut. I can't use the screen capture idea since I don't have an SD card or a printer hooked up to my PS3

thanks again man

Archelon
06-15-2008, 04:14 PM
The only boss fight I didn't really enjoy was Raging Raven.

It was just bad.

But in defense, playing through a second time basically defeats the mystery of figuring out how to effectively fight them. Even back to MGS, the Psycho Mantis fight is only good the first time you play it...because after that, you know how exactly to defeat him and the novelty is lost...much like it is here.

This is true.

I don't know, they just didn't really click with me. Ah well.

Man, I love the cutscene at the end of Act 3. Quite possibly the best one in the whole game.

Relationship between Otacon and Naomi seemed... rushed, and I leave it at that.

Did they even really have a relationship though? I mean, she was playing him all along.

ManiacMarshall
06-16-2008, 10:42 AM
...man... Raiden was so cool...

...though this is the decree I'm making. It's impossible to cosplay cyborg Raiden.

Impossible.

vasher
06-16-2008, 11:59 AM
Well they did

end up sleeping together. I think. And Otacon seemed unduly attached and betrayed by her when she went back to Vamp. Plus the whole weeping and wailing and the light of my life is gooooone bit he went through when she killed herself.

Though maybe it's not much different from his thing with Sniper Wolf.

To change the subject... why didn't Ocelot spill his whole agenda from the beginning? I mean, Snake and Co. have been trying to bring down the Patriots for a while. Why didn't Ocelot just happen to mention that - hey, he wants to take them down too, and why don't we team up? Maybe I didn't follow the story very well, I can't think of anything that necessitated him faking Liquid and his whole megalomania schpeal to set up some ridiculously convoluted plan.

Or maybe that's just the Metal Gear series.

Also, in regard to the bosses

I'm extremely miffed that Vamp doesn't pose for the camera like the Beauty and Beast Corp did.

Archelon
06-16-2008, 01:02 PM
To change the subject... why didn't Ocelot spill his whole agenda from the beginning? I mean, Snake and Co. have been trying to bring down the Patriots for a while. Why didn't Ocelot just happen to mention that - hey, he wants to take them down too, and why don't we team up? Maybe I didn't follow the story very well, I can't think of anything that necessitated him faking Liquid and his whole megalomania schpeal to set up some ridiculously convoluted plan.

That's another question I had.

Big Boss says Ocelot used hypnotherapy and nanomachines to fool the Patriots (and everyone else, for that matter) into thinking he was being possessed by Liquid. Now, my question is, did Ocelot himself truly believe he was Liquid when he "switched over" to Liquid's personality? As in, was he in so deep that even he himself (as Ocelot) wasn't aware of what he was doing as Liquid?

This is really hard to word without making it any more confusing than it already is. I guess the simplest way to phrase it to be, did Ocelot have a split personality, in a sense? As Liquid, he seemed fully aware of Ocelot's thoughts and had full access to Ocelot's subconscious. However, as Ocelot, he didn't seem to be aware of Liquid's goals and ambitions.

Maybe it was just all part of the act, but I got the distinct impression from the final battle that Ocelot had to be literally beaten back to his senses, that the therapy had worked so well that he truly believed he was Liquid. Otherwise, there was no point in his and Snake's battle (aside from blatant fanservice). Liquid still had a score to settle with Snake. Ocelot didn't, and technically, should have never had a beef with Snake to begin with.

It just seems odd to keep up the act after the Patriots had been destroyed. If the whole reason for him to pretend to be Liquid was to confuse the Patriots, then why would he still pretend to be Liquid after he knew they had been completely destroyed? Frankly, I wish Kojima had stuck with the explanation that Ocelot had inherited The Sorrow's abilities. Ironically, it would have made a lot more sense.

Pliskin
06-16-2008, 06:55 PM
It just seems odd to keep up the act after the Patriots had been destroyed. If the whole reason for him to pretend to be Liquid was to confuse the Patriots, then why would he still pretend to be Liquid after he knew they had been completely destroyed? Frankly, I wish Kojima had stuck with the explanation that Ocelot had inherited The Sorrow's abilities. Ironically, it would have made a lot more sense.

Um yuck, no. That explanation was downright retarded, and I'm pretty glad they didn't use it, especially since this one "explains" why he used Liquid's arm in the first-place.

Pliskin
06-16-2008, 07:01 PM
Well they did


To change the subject... why didn't Ocelot spill his whole agenda from the beginning? I mean, Snake and Co. have been trying to bring down the Patriots for a while. Why didn't Ocelot just happen to mention that - hey, he wants to take them down too, and why don't we team up? Maybe I didn't follow the story very well, I can't think of anything that necessitated him faking Liquid and his whole megalomania schpeal to set up some ridiculously convoluted plan.

Ahem...

Because Ocelot's plan would've been stopped right then and there. Snake was essentially always being watched by the Patriots, and he was their "Gun". The second Ocelot gave his true intentions, wham, its all hopeless. For the plan to work, they needed The Patriots AI to essentially use Snake to stop the threat, but in doing so they essentially left themselves open for Snake to be turned right back against them.

The final fight was simply just Ocelot going a bit haywire with Liquid's personality. One could even make an argument that he knew he was going to die thanks to FOXDIE sooner or alter, so he wanted to give his Idol's clone a good going over before he bit it.

Whoops, didn't mean to double-post that, thought I was editing the above post.

Archelon
06-16-2008, 07:19 PM
Um yuck, no. That explanation was downright retarded, and I'm pretty glad they didn't use it, especially since this one "explains" why he used Liquid's arm in the first-place.

Actually, that was already explained in MGS2.

Ocelot, as Liquid, said that he picked Ocelot's body so that he could gain access to the Patriots. If Ocelot had inherited his father's abilities, it's not unreasonable to assume Liquid's spirit already had some sort of hold over Ocelot, even if it was only in a suggestive manner (like the voice in the back of your head) and it was Liquid's spirit that coerced Ocelot into using Liquid's arm.

Granted, this could lead to the question as to why Liquid's arm would need to be grafted onto Ocelot's body at all in order to control him if he already had some influence over Ocelot's actions. It's possible Liquid's spirit needed a more physical connection with Ocelot in order to establish full control.

Sure, this explanation would be "out there," but it would fit well within the other supernatural elements of the series, particularly with The Sorrow being Ocelot's father.

jaiitup
06-16-2008, 07:35 PM
I beat it yesterday and now i'm playing it again on Big Boss Hard and try and not kill anyone.

Pliskin
06-16-2008, 10:41 PM
Actually, that was already explained in MGS2.

Ocelot, as Liquid, said that he picked Ocelot's body so that he could gain access to the Patriots. If Ocelot had inherited his father's abilities, it's not unreasonable to assume Liquid's spirit already had some sort of hold over Ocelot, even if it was only in a suggestive manner (like the voice in the back of your head) and it was Liquid's spirit that coerced Ocelot into using Liquid's arm.

Granted, this could lead to the question as to why Liquid's arm would need to be grafted onto Ocelot's body at all in order to control him if he already had some influence over Ocelot's actions. It's possible Liquid's spirit needed a more physical connection with Ocelot in order to establish full control.

Sure, this explanation would be "out there," but it would fit well within the other supernatural elements of the series, particularly with The Sorrow being Ocelot's father.

That's my point...

How did Liquid "pick" Ocelot's body? In all likelihood it would've been Ocelot "picking" an arm. The very idea that Liquid, dead and with no cronies of his own left (with the death of FOXHOUND) somehow knew his arm was going to be used to replace Ocelot's, and planned on Ocelot using it, so that he could gain access to The Patriots, is downright stupid.

Not to mention the fact that it completely dulls the story involving Ocelot actually being a hero, and essentially sacrificing his standing and honor for an ideal.

Archelon
06-16-2008, 11:08 PM
How did Liquid "pick" Ocelot's body? In all likelihood it would've been Ocelot "picking" an arm. The very idea that Liquid, dead and with no cronies of his own left (with the death of FOXHOUND) somehow knew his arm was going to be used to replace Ocelot's, and planned on Ocelot using it, so that he could gain access to The Patriots, is downright stupid.

I didn't say Liquid knew Ocelot would pick his arm. I said Liquid's spirit would coerce Ocelot into picking his arm through suggestion from beyond the grave. For all we know, Liquid could have simply wanted to live on in some form so he could get his revenge against Snake and had no prior knowledge of the Patriots whatsoever until he possessed Ocelot's body. Attributing a fluke to his "keen intellect and foresight" could simply be ego.

And even if he did somehow know that, it would be no more ridiculous than Ocelot having the foresight to predict his arm (or at least some limb) would be severed or otherwise injured to the point of needing a replacement during the Shadow Moses incident. Otherwise, he would have never been able to put his plan into motion in the first place. Unless he removed his arm himself, but even then, it would only raise suspicion if he consciously removed his own arm to replace it with Liquid's.

EXsoldierSNAKE
06-16-2008, 11:41 PM
One thing still escapes me. When Snake is at the graveyard before Otacon and Campbell come and get him, who's grave is he visiting? Do we even know? I was thinking maybe I just over looked it.

TybaltFlux
06-16-2008, 11:47 PM
One thing still escapes me. When Snake is at the graveyard before Otacon and Campbell come and get him, who's grave is he visiting? Do we even know? I was thinking maybe I just over looked it.

The Boss

Eurobeat King
06-16-2008, 11:50 PM
Taking a break from watching video's because i have tons of A-kon pics to post, but here's a question (not sure if it was asked before or not) :

Did they use the same voice-actresses for Naomi & Mei Ling as they did in MGS1? (or in Twin Snakes?) Cos it seems like those two ladies lost their accents throughout the years.. hehe ;)

EXsoldierSNAKE
06-17-2008, 01:08 AM
The Boss

But why? He didn't know who The Boss was until he met EVA

4ng31
06-17-2008, 01:22 AM
I believe it was Frank's grave (Cyborg Ninja) that he is there for.

TybaltFlux
06-17-2008, 09:14 AM
I was assuming it was The Boss because of the setting, plus the fact that Big Boss shows up holding the Patriot in his hand at the end. Also, given the fact that The Boss was a legendary soldier, I don't doubt Snake would have known ofher.

vasher
06-17-2008, 10:29 AM
Wasn't it Big Boss's grave? The camera pans over to the side a few times to show the Boss's, and the writing on it is different.

I wish the game were a bit better about successfully hiding once you've been spotted. Geeze, switch from stealth game to dubious shooter every damn time. Beginning of Act 4 was a big pain for that reason.

Pliskin
06-17-2008, 10:51 AM
I believe it was Frank's grave (Cyborg Ninja) that he is there for.

Its Big Boss's. Says "193X-1999, Died in Outer Heaven" or something to that effect. Gray Fox was a child soldier in the 70's during Portable Ops. Its also RIGHT next to The Boss's

Pliskin
06-17-2008, 10:55 AM
I didn't say Liquid knew Ocelot would pick his arm. I said Liquid's spirit would coerce Ocelot into picking his arm through suggestion from beyond the grave. For all we know, Liquid could have simply wanted to live on in some form so he could get his revenge against Snake and had no prior knowledge of the Patriots whatsoever until he possessed Ocelot's body. Attributing a fluke to his "keen intellect and foresight" could simply be ego.

And even if he did somehow know that, it would be no more ridiculous than Ocelot having the foresight to predict his arm (or at least some limb) would be severed or otherwise injured to the point of needing a replacement during the Shadow Moses incident. Otherwise, he would have never been able to put his plan into motion in the first place. Unless he removed his arm himself, but even then, it would only raise suspicion if he consciously removed his own arm to replace it with Liquid's.

Your plan is even more convoluted! Calling from the grave? Try to show at least some semblance of plot. This isn't Resident Evil. Sorrow wasn't "manipulated" by the spirits he talked to. I don't see why Ocelot would be. Furthermore, I get the impression Ocelot was the one manipulating Liquid, and not vice-versa. Liquid was a bit on the dumb side.

Its far more likely that Ocelot saw his chance to "become the anti-patriot" and supposedly had his arm grafted on. Nobody knows however, and by the time of MGS4, the arm is no longer there as it was used for the first SOP test in Unspecifiedistan. Instead he has some sort of cybernetic prosthetic.

Archelon
06-17-2008, 01:26 PM
This isn't Resident Evil.

Really? Is that your answer to everything when it comes to me? Seriously?

And my explanation is no more convoluted than the rest of the series.

Besides, if you go by the MGS2 Digital Graphic Novel (which was overseen and approved by Kojima, mind you), Ocelot actually speaks with Liquid's spirit and The Sorrow's as well. The Sorrow even chastises Ocelot for being so weak-minded as to lose his consciousness to Liquid. For all we know, The Sorrow could have just as easily been influenced by spirits until he learned to control his abilities.

Whether or not the Digital Graphic Novels are considered official representations of the events of MGS1 and MGS2 doesn't matter. The importance here is that there was already a precedent for the explanation that Ocelot was actually being controlled by Liquid's spirit. It was set up in MGS3, and further expanded upon in the MGS2 digital graphic novel. If that's not how Kojima had originally intended to explain it, then why would he make The Sorrow Ocelot's father and why would he let the DGN have that scene?

Unlike you, I don't believe that Kojima had this "bait and switch" planned from the start. He just changed his mind. It's as simple as that. Otherwise, they would have never had Ocelot's voice change to Liquid's in MGS2 (yes, I'm aware his voice never changed in the Japanese version, but if it was really supposed to be an act, they wouldn't have done it in the English version, regardless of how confusing it may have been to the player). For crying out loud, his arm convulsed and contorted in unnatural ways and the veins bulged out each time he "switched" personalities in MGS2. No amount of acting or hypnotherapy could pull that off.

Unless we're just supposed to accept that the nanomachines did that. They really are the fairy dust of this series.

Did they use the same voice-actresses for Naomi & Mei Ling as they did in MGS1? (or in Twin Snakes?) Cos it seems like those two ladies lost their accents throughout the years.. hehe ;)

Yeah, they're the same. They lost their accents in Twin Snakes, which is apparently the official translation now, as the audio flashbacks use Twin Snakes' dialogue, not the original MGS's.

Naraku's wish
06-20-2008, 05:22 PM
If Ocelot and EVA created the patriots, who the hell took Ocelot from THE BOSS when he was a baby?

Pliskin
06-20-2008, 06:12 PM
If Ocelot and EVA created the patriots, who the hell took Ocelot from THE BOSS when he was a baby?

The Philosophers.

vasher
06-20-2008, 06:13 PM
If Ocelot and EVA created the patriots, who the hell took Ocelot from THE BOSS when he was a baby?

It was a Philosopher agent, IIRC. Pre-curser to the Patriots.

So I was looking over the Metal Gear Solid Database last night, and still don't get whether-

Ocelot was faking it all along, or whether Liquid actually took over for some parts. Even the damn encyclopedia contradicts itself. First it mentions that Ocelot replaced the Liquid arm with a cybernetic one after MGS2, and that set his mind to rights again, but then it later says that the whole thing was a ruse to dupe the Patriots. ARGH.

Oh well, at least Raiden's ninja body's explained. >_>

Archelon
06-20-2008, 09:11 PM
Ocelot was faking it all along, or whether Liquid actually took over for some parts. Even the damn encyclopedia contradicts itself. First it mentions that Ocelot replaced the Liquid arm with a cybernetic one after MGS2, and that set his mind to rights again, but then it later says that the whole thing was a ruse to dupe the Patriots. ARGH.

I came in here just to point that out.

And while the Database does explain some stuff regarding Raiden, it still glosses over a lot. I smell a game starring him in the not-too-distant future.

And just a random thought after having played through it again. It seems extremely ironic to me that Kojima makes a joke about having to change discs when you have to install each act before you can play it, and the actual installs take more time than it would to physically switch a disc. It may as well have been on 5 (6, if you count MGO) separate discs.

On that token, isn't installing a game supposed to significantly reduce load times? Why are they still there (and noticeable)?

Pliskin
06-20-2008, 09:48 PM
I came in here just to point that out.

And while the Database does explain some stuff regarding Raiden, it still glosses over a lot. I smell a game starring him in the not-too-distant future.

And just a random thought after having played through it again. It seems extremely ironic to me that Kojima makes a joke about having to change discs when you have to install each act before you can play it, and the actual installs take more time than it would to physically switch a disc. It may as well have been on 5 (6, if you count MGO) separate discs.

On that token, isn't installing a game supposed to significantly reduce load times? Why are they still there (and noticeable)?

I believe the game install is actually installing a sizeable chunk of data per level, something like 4.7 gigs per, minus sound-files, which are stored on the disc ans streamed, along with some other graphical assets.

This implies the gamedata is heavily compressed due to the install times, and its entirely likely that assets would need to be cut to fit all of each level on a single disc.

Its also indicative of the data usage the game engine needs, namely, using both the Blu-Ray drive and HDD in tandem for gamedata shows that the game is an absolute streaming monster. The DVD drive on the 360 is only marginally faster than the BD-Drive, and would not make-up for the loss of a HD for dedicated gamedata caching. Its entirely possible that the engine, as it exists now, would need serious revisions to work on any other system.

/techspeak

Basically, the entire engine was designed to stream from two sources at once at an increased speed from the outset. The installs aren't so much a function of disc-size, as they are a function of the requirements of the game engine.

Archelon
06-20-2008, 10:06 PM
Thanks for the info.

Naraku's wish
06-23-2008, 05:07 AM
Why are all the main badguys goodguys?Did they use the sorrow to bring back Psycho mantis? Or was psycho mantis able to do it himself? or was the whole damn thing a program?Better yet, did ocelot bring back the sorrow to bring back Psycho mantis?

Quantum9
06-25-2008, 12:23 PM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/99-Metal-Gear-Solid-4

If there was ever a nail that needed to be hit on the head, ol' Yahtzee just gave it a sledgehammer.

Naraku's wish
06-25-2008, 01:01 PM
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/99-Metal-Gear-Solid-4

If there was ever a nail that needed to be hit on the head, ol' Yahtzee just gave it a sledgehammer.
1&3 were acceptable. There is no espionage in MGS4 its true!

Spetsnaz
06-25-2008, 01:27 PM
Unlimited ammo in the tranq pistol?

Sounds like someone played the game on the easiest mode. :)

Naraku's wish
06-26-2008, 12:58 AM
Unlimited ammo in the tranq pistol?

Sounds like someone played the game on the easiest mode. :)
That's how he rolls.

Pliskin
06-26-2008, 11:44 AM
Unlimited ammo in the tranq pistol?

Sounds like someone played the game on the easiest mode. :)

Yeah, there's a few other things he missed. Still funny though

I still don't know how someone can slam MGS for cutscenes breaking-up the story, when something like oooooh I dunno, Half-Life 2 does the same thing, just instead of watching a dynamic cutscene, you bunny hop around the room swinging a crowbar while characters talk to eachother. LOL

Zero_Gravity
06-26-2008, 01:30 PM
I never did and never will understand Metal Gear Solid

Archelon
06-26-2008, 05:02 PM
I still don't know how someone can slam MGS for cutscenes breaking-up the story, when something like oooooh I dunno, Half-Life 2 does the same thing, just instead of watching a dynamic cutscene, you bunny hop around the room swinging a crowbar while characters talk to eachother. LOL

Um, what?

None of the "cutscenes" in Half-Life 2 even come close to the length of the cutscenes in MGS4. And even if all you can do is "bunny hop" around while a cutscene is playing out, some people prefer that kind of interactivity during cutscenes to just sitting and watching. You may not consider it interactivity, but it's certainly more interactive than just pressing a button.

Regardless, I have a feeling his complaint had more to do with the length of the cutscenes. If they were quick and to the point, he probably wouldn't have had an issue. He does bring up an excellent point though that Kojima needs to learn that editors are a good thing, though this has been a problem that has plagued the entire series, not just MGS4. The biggest issue regarding the dialogue in MGS4 is that it's incredibly redundant.

Pliskin
06-26-2008, 05:16 PM
I never did and never will understand Metal Gear Solid

Welcome to the thread, please read before posting however, since link has already been posted. :-D

Um, what?

None of the "cutscenes" in Half-Life 2 even come close to the length of the cutscenes in MGS4. And even if all you can do is "bunny hop" around while a cutscene is playing out, some people prefer that kind of interactivity during cutscenes to just sitting and watching. You may not consider it interactivity, but it's certainly more interactive than just pressing a button.


That's isn't interactivity at all. The story is still being "told" to you. You're not acting in it.

If the cutscenes in Half-Life are interactive, then so are the mission brifings in MGS.

All I've seen is more of a backlash from people who simply don't enjoy the game than any real sharp criticism. I've seen just as much praise from people who love the cutscenes. I've seen more "hating MGS4 because its popular" than any other reason, and then of course, there are pseudo-intellectual dolts like Shawn Elliot on 1up who really aren't helping matters.

Ah well. Kojima's a genius, and nothing that anyone says is going to change my opinion of that. :-)

Spetsnaz
06-26-2008, 05:29 PM
Um, what?

None of the "cutscenes" in Half-Life 2 even come close to the length of the cutscenes in MGS4. And even if all you can do is "bunny hop" around while a cutscene is playing out, some people prefer that kind of interactivity during cutscenes to just sitting and watching. You may not consider it interactivity, but it's certainly more interactive than just pressing a button.

Regardless, I have a feeling his complaint had more to do with the length of the cutscenes. If they were quick and to the point, he probably wouldn't have had an issue. He does bring up an excellent point though that Kojima needs to learn that editors are a good thing, though this has been a problem that has plagued the entire series, not just MGS4. The biggest issue regarding the dialogue in MGS4 is that it's incredibly redundant.

While I love Zero Punctuation, there are many things I find that I disagree on.

It's just that Yahtzee seems like one of those new age gamers. Where story does not matter, but gameplay. I thought, personally, that Metal Gear Solid 4 had a good balance of both. However, Yahtzee, like I said, seems like those new age types who just blaze through a game.

Is there espionage? Yes. Is there action? Yes. You can try to sneak around, or you can blast your way through. I have a friend who has beaten the game without being spotted and without firing a shot unless he has absolutely had to. (IE The bosses and so forth)

Games now a days feel like you're going on a running killing spree with the writer's of the story throwing it at you as you zoom past shooting and blowing stuff up.

I found MGS4 a refreshing course change. It had plenty of fun in the gameplay, then plenty of relaxation time to chill out, let the hands rest and watch more of the story unfold.

Could there have been more gameplay? Sure. In my first playthrough I played MGS4 in SP for about 16-18 hours. I took my time, enjoyed the atmopshere, and did exactly how the game is ment to be played. Tactical. Thinking. Not just equipping the rations and equipping the M60 and blasting my way through everyone in my path.

Also, as for MGS4 hating, I sense a lot of jealousy over the PS3 system. I have seen so much complaining about the game not on 360 that I feel like many reviews are based on that sole reason.

It seems like the game sucks just because it's not on the 360 system is a popular belief in the community.

Archelon
06-26-2008, 07:23 PM
All I've seen is more of a backlash from people who simply don't enjoy the game than any real sharp criticism. I've seen just as much praise from people who love the cutscenes. I've seen more "hating MGS4 because its popular" than any other reason, and then of course, there are pseudo-intellectual dolts like Shawn Elliot on 1up who really aren't helping matters.

As always, it's all in the perspective.

I've seen what I consider to be more knee-jerk "OMG GREATEST GAME EVAR!!!11!1!!" praise for the game than genuine, intelligent discourse regarding the game's positives (and yes, I'm including reviews from websites and publications). On the other hand, much of the criticisms I have read and heard regarding the game show a far more thoughtful approach. They'd have to be in order to get any attention with a game like this.

It's always interesting to me to read a critique of a popular game, especially one as big as MGS4, because, rarely, with games of such caliber, a person does not need to explain or justify him/herself as to why he/she likes it. It's almost universally understood and/or accepted. However, someone who dislikes the game, or has a few issues with it, must really work hard to make their case, because, otherwise, they'll just be ignored or written off as being "anti-[insert company here]" or a jealous fanboy/girl. Heck, even if they do argue their position in an intelligent and mature manner, more often than not they get written off anyway.

It's easy to pass off criticisms as "fanboy jealousy" or claiming they dislike it only because it's popular, but in doing so, one shuts the doors to any possible discussion about the game from a more objective standpoint. Unfortunately, with games like MGS4, that happens with far more regularity.

And just for the record, most of the more intelligent criticisms regarding the game (as opposed to the usual, "cutscenes too long," "not enough gameplay," etc.) have come from fans of the series themselves, and I'm not talking about people with a passing interest, but rather, serious, "hardcore" fans. Ironically, many of them have the same problems with the storyline and gameplay as people who "already hate the series" or "have never played an MGS before in their lives."

Pliskin
06-26-2008, 11:22 PM
<snipped>

I know there are some valid arguments with the game, but frankly, I haven't heard any from its detractors.

Perhaps we agree to disagree? Or are you going to try and ignore me here as well?

TheLadySummoner
07-14-2008, 12:39 AM
Was I the only person that was annoyed that

Meryl ended up with Johnny? That whole wedding scene at the end made me want to gag. I've always been a Snake/Meryl fan and I guess I was kind of mad that they didn't end up together (even though deep down I knew they wouldn't), but still that part of the epilogue was so cheesy.

Archelon
07-14-2008, 10:54 AM
Was I the only person that was annoyed that

Meryl ended up with Johnny? That whole wedding scene at the end made me want to gag. I've always been a Snake/Meryl fan and I guess I was kind of mad that they didn't end up together (even though deep down I knew they wouldn't), but still that part of the epilogue was so cheesy.

No. No you weren't.

Though I wasn't annoyed because

Snake and Meryl didn't get together. I was annoyed, because the whole scene was utterly ridiculous. I was cringing throughout the whole thing.

Moo-chan
07-14-2008, 10:57 AM
No. No you weren't.

Though I wasn't annoyed because

Snake and Meryl didn't get together. I was annoyed, because the whole scene was utterly ridiculous. I was cringing throughout the whole thing.


haha Same HERE!

EXsoldierSNAKE
07-15-2008, 09:28 PM
Any of you guys playing MGO? we should all get on and play it sometime!

Lady Muramasa
07-16-2008, 12:15 PM
Kojima pretty much said that Metal Gear Solid 4 was a fanservice.
He also said there is no way to truly play the game, the gamers can play it anyway they want to, to beat it.


(A_A)
Well for being a "Fanservice" game, I loved it.....minus the lengthy cutscenes, if they were toned down a bit like MGS I wouldn't have minded a bit. But hell, I found it worth the money.



This information is found in the beginning of that Strategy guide(which we opened after beating the game, no noobage here!)

Narutoking
07-31-2008, 08:35 PM
I never did and never will understand Metal Gear Solid
I totally agree. I vote for this opinion :rockon:

EXsoldierSNAKE
08-05-2008, 12:23 AM
I totally agree. I vote for this opinion :rockon:

Then why waste your oh so precious time posting in the thread?

Naraku's wish
08-05-2008, 11:32 AM
Then why waste your oh so precious time posting in the thread?

Just to say something :\

I was expecting more from MGO, any halfwit who played mgs3:S would know it's practically the same format only with worse maps. The lag is exactly what I would expect from a playstaion 3, and is fairly annoying. The knife is incredibly broken, and if you know how to run and have no regards to the actually playing it like a espionage game, surely you are the genius who brings a knife to a gunfight and wins.