PDA

View Full Version : Nintendo: How You REALLY Feel


Quantum9
06-21-2008, 01:24 AM
Alright, I am aware that by making this topic, I'm not just opening the proverbial can of worms, I'm opening the gates of hell, unleashing the demons inside. That said, I think right now Nintendo is a topic of great discussion within the industry, and one that I think is worth the risk. Let it be known, however, that the instant this gets out of hand I'll be asking for the lock, K? Excellent.

Now, the Wii is in an odd position right now. Since launch it's pleased all the soccer moms of the world, but the console still hasn't caught on to a hardcore userbase, outside of the multitude of Nintendo fanboys populating the interwebs. While they've been kept happy with the Metroids, Marios, and Brawls of the world, casuals have gotten Wii Play and Wii Fit, and it's made the Wii the #1 selling console world-wide. However, whether or not it has clinched victory is another matter entirely...or, if it even deserves it.

The Wii has it's share of problems...space issues which should never have existed in the first place. A weak online service, dominated by friend codes. Weak third party support and a cavalcade of shovelware. And now, a lack of any games announced past July, E3 notwithstanding.

Many have stated that the Wii bubble may be bursting soon, given that gamers will tire of the console's modest power and will move on to something more substantial. Others think nothing can stop the juggernaut that is Nintendo, given that it outsold the PS3 and 360 combined in a month that saw one of the biggest games ever (GTAIV) released for both consoles and not their own. And now, the fury is on in regards to Nintendo's future...have the Wii and DS become a giant "screw you" to their fans? Or is the best yet to come from the Big N?

So that's what this topic is all about. Play nice.

Pliskin
06-21-2008, 01:39 AM
Many have stated that the Wii bubble may be bursting soon, given that gamers will tire of the console's modest power and will move on to something more substantial.

Actually, that could very-well have already happened, and nobody would really notice because the core-gamer crowd aren't the ones lining-up in front of stores still to get a wii. Its the casual "blue ocean" crowd.

Essentially, most of the hardcore could care less about games for their wii, since they can get that from their 360 or PS3, and subsequently their wii just sits there gathering dust until the next big Nintendo title comes-out.

I don't think the Nintendo bubble will burst, but if it did, Nintendo would be in a somewhat precarious position. Its also unknown just how much of an impact the balance-board and wiimote style preipherals in the works for 360 and PS3 are going to have. While peripherals controllers aren't usually seen as selling well, the Wii is essentially being bought as "the Wii Sports system" or "The Wii Fit system" by the masses. So coupled with the right software, one of these copycat ideas could take the wind out of Nintendo's sails. The very act of putting an alternative on the market might slow some momentum as well since the "uniqueness" of the control system would be somewhat lessened.

I think that Nintendo might very-well win the hardware race. But Sony or MS could also end-up selling more 3rd party software, or even software total.

Mesoian
06-21-2008, 02:08 AM
Nintendo is the cancer that's killing games.

But it's late and I'm too tired to elaborate right now, so i'll explain further tomorrow.

ShinWHO
06-21-2008, 02:17 AM
I sure hope the bubble doesn't burst anytime soon. We at NOA have had more work than ever before! There's always Pokémon to fall back on, though. It makes more money than anything else, period.

LordDeus
06-21-2008, 05:47 AM
I haven't really posted much here lately, but back when I did, I think most here understood how I felt about the Wii. So I'm not going to reiterate that as my position hasn't strayed. Even presently, the Wii is following the same road as I predicted before it was even released.

I just find it funny how people were completely against buying a 360 and a PS3 because of the high price, and were looking forward to the Wii's "innovative" stand on gaming back then are now seeing the Wii - and the 360 and the PS3 for that matter - in a different light.

The Wii is great for what it is, and aside from the SNES, Nintendo have never been known to make full use of the potential of their systems(Gamecube anyone?) so I 'm not expecting the Wii to either.

After all, if Nintendo breaks and finally decides to to put more focus on hardware, memory space, and online capability, they would in a sense be admitting defeat - admitting they were wrong. And Nintendo have way too much pride for that.

It's sad that we'll only see a small handful of exceptional blockbuster 3rd party titles on the Wii. Sure we'll have the great 1st party titles, but as I've predicted I think thats all we really have to look forward to in the future as well. There are some promising looking titles coming out for sure: monster hunter, the conduit ect ect. But only time will tell whether they are worth our time.

TheLadySummoner
06-21-2008, 10:52 AM
I'd consider myself a hardcore gamer, but the fact is that while I'd LOVE to have a PS3 (I'm not so much into 360), I just cannot afford it. I do have a Wii, and I agree a lot with what you guys are saying. I'm not really happy about the direction Nintendo has been heading in recently, but that being said my Wii certainly isn't collecting dust on the shelf. By no means do I consider myself a Nintendo fan-girl (I grew up wit Sega and my first Nintendo console was the N64), but I'm completely happy with the games I do have. Twilight Princess, Brawl, Okami, and Mario Kart (which are only some of my Wii games) have all kept me pretty busy. And they all have excellent replay value.

On the subject of online play, I'm not really too upset with the way Nintendo is doing things. I like not being able to talk to other people. Personally, I'd rather not have 30-some year old guys screaming in my ears about how lame I am. However, Brawl's online portion could use some serious work. 90% of the time it's laggy. Sometimes it is really bad and other times not so bad. Mario Kart is HUGE improvement, though. So far, I haven't had any problems with lagging.

I think overall I'm not completely for or against Nintendo. The Wii is what it is, and I'm fine with that. That being said, as soon as I can afford a PS3 I'll get one. I'm dying to play MGS4 right now! XD

demifiend
06-21-2008, 11:51 AM
You are indeed brave for starting this topic. I expect it will be locked fairly soon by no fault of your own.
I don't know if the Wii bubble will burst, but I do see it going in a different direction as the PS3 and 360. Hell, I'm starting to believe we'll see a future where we don't lump the Wii, PS3, and 360 together, as Wii will be so far removed in terms of what it does.

My 50-something year old female coworker got a Wii, but I highly doubt that she will get anything like Resident Evil or Zelda or even Smash Brothers. So many systems get sold, but so very little third-party software gets sold with it, and the attach rate for the system is awful. I think we'll really start to see the direction that the Wii is going in the next year or so, as major third-party releases kick in. I expect their sales on Wii to be in the toilet, because 20 million + Wii owners do not mean even a quarter of that will likely buy the game. I'd be surprised if an upcoming major third party release on the Wii sells one million units by the end of summer 2009 (I'm aware that a few have, surprisingly those Carnival-games vaporware dreck). Once those third parties realize that the Wii is not the shiny chariot that will lead them to the promised land, they won't bother with the system anymore and will probably say the same thing about it that I do: that it IS a system for non-gamers. No sense crying over that. As Yahtzee said:

"Nintendo is a big boy now, small time curmudgeons like me are not going to reduce anyone there to tears, and they care even less about you."

Nintendo is not our friendly underdog game company. They're a giant and they are not concerned with developing gaming as an art form or in promoting any kind of synergy with other developers. They're in it for dollar one, and the Nintendo Defense Force needs to know where they and we stand with this company.

FinalEVA
06-21-2008, 12:12 PM
The "Wii is a fad" notion has definitely passed and expired. It's about 1.5 years after its release, and you still can't find one on the shelf in the US very easily.

After the Wii was released, I consider myself and old school Nintendo fan. I love the Mario and Zelda stuff, but I don't care for Wii Sports, Wii Play, Wii Fit, or creating Miis.

When the Wii was released, everyone was so excited and needed to go out and buy the console, I knew Nintendo was going in a different direction than other consoles. This day, many Nintendo fanboys are really angry that they are selling the most but not getting the same 3rd party support that the PS2 got last generation with games like MGS, FF, or RE5.

I had a Wii for about a month when Brawl was released and sold it since then. Maybe when a Zelda comes that is not also on the GameCube (and plays better on it too), I will get one again.

Right now, a lot of the third parties are having a difficult time in Japan as people there do not seem to want anything but Nintendo stuff. Many of them are going to MS to keep themselves afloat.

That said, I'm a PS3 and 360 guy this generation, and I think it will stay that way. Devs like Kojima are providing me with what I want to see in "Next-gen" more than the Wii and it's new input device.

ELFanatic
06-21-2008, 01:09 PM
I'm still wanting a Wii personally. I'll get a 360 as well but for the reason that most of you mention, some of the more hardcore gamer games such as GTA IV. I personally miss the PSX/N64 days. sony actually kicked ass that generation, it was the gamers console and the 64 was great for nintendo games and multiplayer. My 64 sat there until someone came over and then it got abused. It had enough simple multiplayer for those who don't game too. It was awesome.

This generation, I just don't know. Wii is and always was going to be what we all expected it to be, first party games. And I'm not much of a nintendo fan boy but the wii still seems like it'll be a lot of fun but I'm starting to aim my sights on 360 for the games that I'll really admire. But all together console just isn't really impressing me right now.

Now that I got a nice computer I can look at PC games and I'm definitely much more impressed with it.

4ng31
06-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Nintendo is the cancer that's killing games.

This.

Extremely weak online service. Mediocre graphic capabilities. No media playback functions (come on, not even DVD...)

And I still believe the Wii is a fad. Honestly, how many of you play your Wii everyday? Mine makes a great Super Smash Bros Brawl console...and it makes a great Gamecube...I would just sell the thing, but then I'd feel guilty over cosplaying Lucario and not owning the console/game :mad:

Koisnake
06-21-2008, 04:44 PM
And I still believe the Wii is a fad.

I honestly fell into this fad. Had to pay $300 for the Wii, since it was 'sold out everywhere in Cleveland'. Honestly, I only play it for Brawl as well. At that time, I had no game consoles, I decided to save up for the Wii. Just bought a DS again, but just to play Phantom hourglass :P

Dunno. Nintendo these days is good for those 'odd' and 'fun' games. I don't see much epic adventure games, besides Zelda.

Pliskin
06-21-2008, 05:00 PM
On the subject of online play, I'm not really too upset with the way Nintendo is doing things. I like not being able to talk to other people. Personally, I'd rather not have 30-some year old guys screaming in my ears about how lame I am. However, Brawl's online portion could use some serious work. 90% of the time it's laggy. Sometimes it is really bad and other times not so bad. Mario Kart is HUGE improvement, though. So far, I haven't had any problems with lagging.

Just wanted to mention, many of us who play on Live or PSN have big enough friends lists that we don't exactly end-up playing games with the great unwashed masses.

Not to mention, there's always the "mute" button. Its akin to Sony and MS giving the players the "option", while Nintendo just makes the decision for the player.

Leishu
06-21-2008, 05:09 PM
Eh... I play my Wii and PS3 (with time split between new titles and old ones which I'm playing catchup with) equally and my PC around three times as much as the two of them combined.

It's not killing gaming any more than the other two consoles is, in my opinion, and numbers thus far support that. The focus of hardcore gaming is, however, strengthening within the PC market again, though this shouldn't come as much of a surprise. This also doesn't affect numbers that much. Casual gaming will -always- be where the money is because casual gamers outnumber "hardcore" (self-professed or otherwise) gamers ten-to-one. *shrug* I don't find "quality" issues to be as present as some other folks do. The ratio of great games to awful ones is more or less similar to PS3's or X360s. The market is where it's always been, in a respect, and that's an area of personal preference. If you think that you can prove a "best console" or "worst console" on a forum by any rubric which isn't totally arbitrary then you're fooling yourself and, generally, making yourself look like a jerk who thinks that his opinion, because that's exactly what it is, is somehow worth more than that of any other gamer.

LordDeus
06-21-2008, 07:14 PM
It's not killing gaming any more than the other two consoles is, in my opinion, and numbers thus far support that.

This was one of my biggest fears when the Wii was released, however it seems things aren't as bad as I had thought in regards to this topic. Just as Demifiend suggests, developers are slowly learning that making a game on the Wii doesn't equal guaranteed success.

The ratio of great games to awful ones is more or less similar to PS3's or X360s.

You're joking right? Because of a lack of third party support Nintendo opted to get rid of any "filter system" to weed out any shameful titles that would appear on their console. Resulting in a quickly growing library of shovelware crap ie. Ninja Reflex, Jenga World Tour, Ninjabread Man to name a few.

If you think that you can prove a "best console" or "worst console" on a forum by any rubric which isn't totally arbitrary then you're fooling yourself...

Depends on what your classifying as "best." In terms of technology, the answer is obviously NOT the Wii. In terms of commercial success, the answer is CLEARLY the Wii. However in terms of personal taste, well, that's debatable. Let's just hope personal taste doesn't get in the way of this so far civilized discussion. The fanboys luckily haven't found this thread yet it seems.

FinalEVA
06-21-2008, 07:42 PM
The relationships between 3rd parties and the company is a big factor - more than install base. MS and Sony have to go out of their way to support the third parties. Sony wasn't supporting the third parties at the beginning of the generation and quickly had to get off of their high horse.

Nintendo doesn't really need their relationships with third parties. They have this generation set in stone and all they need to do is sit in their offices while trucks of cash come by to unload.

I was getting really worried about all the third parties leaving the HD consoles when Monster Hunter 3 and Fatal Frame IV were lost. Especially in the Japanese market. It was very nice to see a good launch there for MGS4. I'm hoping FF XIII will pull in some nice numbers as well.

Quantum9
06-21-2008, 07:44 PM
I think that several of the complaints made in this topic against the Wii can be summed up by one simple fact: Nintendo needs profits. There's a reason why Nintendo doesn't offer any online functionality, and it's because their online service isn't centralized: rather, it merely weeds out the connections via the friend codes. Nintendo says this is merely for protection purposes, but in reality it's because this is a far cheaper way of doing things.

Mediocre graphics? No DVD? No HD? All things Nintendo doesn't find cost effective.

Now, of course, some say this is due to Nintendo's infamous greed, which anyone in the NES/SNES era remembers. I disagree. The fact is while Nintendo is a gigantic corporation, they're still a drop in the bucket compared to Sony or Microsoft. Nintendo probably has about 10-11 billion in the bank right now...compare that to the tens of billions Sony and MS have to work with. And before you say that Nintendo can stand to sell stuff at a loss and then make it back, they really can't...since they don't have anything to fall back on. Sony makes music players, TVs, DVD players, and produces their own films. MS has a little operating system on Windows. These make far more profit (at least in MS's case), and thus their video game divisions can sell their products at a loss and not worry about it. Nintendo doesn't have that luxury, and therefore, they need to profit off of anything they sell. Hence why the Wii costs $250 when it probably makes about $100-$150 to make. So it's not that they don't want to compete punch for punch with the other guys - they just can't.

Also, it's worth noting that everyone and their brother thought that the Wii was going to be the third place system this gen. Hell, it was no less than 3-4 years ago that you couldn't walk into a message board without people saying Nintendo was going to give up hardware production, becoming a software-only developer and essentially going the way of Sega. Hence, Nintendo needed all the profit they could get - with the PSP on its way out and ready to suck up Nintendo's last vestiges of market share, they needed some way to keep from being buried.

4ng31
06-21-2008, 08:15 PM
It's not killing gaming any more than the other two consoles is, in my opinion, and numbers thus far support that.

Ah yes...the numbers...lets look at them shall we?

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6950/numbersscankh7.jpg

Seems Metacritic doesn't agree with you...

LordDeus
06-21-2008, 08:23 PM
Ah yes...the numbers...lets look at them shall we?

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6950/numbersscankh7.jpg

Seems Metacritic doesn't agree with you...

Wow they took this info from only 182 games?? Even though this shows the relative ratio of good to below avg games definitely in favor of the latter, they weren't counting even half of the shovelware that's available.

demifiend
06-21-2008, 10:01 PM
Nintendo doesn't really need their relationships with third parties. They have this generation set in stone and all they need to do is sit in their offices while trucks of cash come by to unload.

Great for Nintendo. So, what does that do for us, the gamers?

Pliskin
06-21-2008, 11:14 PM
Great for Nintendo. So, what does that do for us, the gamers?

Whats ironic about that, is Nintendo doesn't regard "gamers" like you and I as "core gamers" anymore. We're "geeks and otaku." It appears whenever Nintendo says "Core" they mean "Casual."

Nintendo really couldn't care less about the "fans". They care more about the consumers of their brand, namely, the soccer moms and elderly chaps who are buying the system.

If company resources needed to be focused on either a new Wii Sports title, or a new Zelda, I don't hesitate for a second to imagine which game would be put on hiatus.

Perhaps I'm the wrong person to be commenting about this though. None of Nintendo's original franchises have ever really interested me. I want something a little more mature from Nintendo. Not blood and guts sex and violence, just a bit more mature story, character and plot development, etc.

Unfortunately, I can't get that from Mario Kart or Wii Fit, lol.

Quantum9
06-22-2008, 12:23 AM
Well, I think you bring up a good point Pliskin - that of Nintendo's fans. It's well known and inarguable that Nintendo has the most loyal fans in video gaming: no matter what dumb moves the company has done in the past, they stand by them through thick and this, eagerly awaiting the next Mario, Zelda, or Smash Bros. and defending the company's moves (and bashing its many detractors) on message boards worldwide. While MS fans and Sony fans are usually no better (Sony fans can be downright mean), you cannot deny that no company asks more of it's fanbase than Nintendo - not even Apple. This was especially the case a few years ago when the GameCube was in the stinkhole and N-fans were constantly posting positive things about it to kid themselves and others that it was a success.

FinalEVA
06-22-2008, 01:14 AM
The fact is while Nintendo is a gigantic corporation, they're still a drop in the bucket compared to Sony or Microsoft.

If you don't mind me pointing out, Nintendo actually passed up Sony sometime in the last year in total market cap. and are well in the top 10 Japanese corporations.
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TYO:7974 vs
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TYO:6758

Even if some of us gamers are disappointed by the new direction with the Wii, Nintendo played the game of capitalism ethically. They put out a product and consumers wanted it. I wouldn't call it greed because they were preparing to lag behind its competitors this generation.

@Pliskin

Although I don't take things the corporate PR guys say too seriously, "geeks and otaku" are what made Nintendo what it is. Even though now they have large appeal with the "cool and normal" crowd, they should respect its original fanbase of 25 years before that. Especially the hardcore N64 and GC supporters.

I still consider myself a big Mario and Zelda fan to this day as they were series I grew up on. I do remember last generation, how people were criticized for liking those series. It's also the same way with Final Fantasy more these days, which I consider myself a loyalist to that series through thick and thin.

While Sony fans were mean last generation, it's easy for Nintendo fans to become the same way this generation being on top, and I have witnessed it quite a lot.

First year of the PS3, supporters of the console really had to stick together seeing very low sales and huge financial losses and constant doomsday talk from MS and Nintendo fans. For a while, there could be no discussion of FF 13 or MGS4 without people talking about them going multi-plat.

LordDeus
06-22-2008, 03:08 AM
If you don't mind me pointing out, Nintendo actually passed up Sony sometime in the last year in total market cap. and are well in the top 10 Japanese corporations.
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TYO:7974 vs
http://finance.google.com/finance?q=TYO:6758

Even if some of us gamers are disappointed by the new direction with the Wii, Nintendo played the game of capitalism ethically. They put out a product and consumers wanted it. I wouldn't call it greed because they were preparing to lag behind its competitors this generation.

@Pliskin

Although I don't take things the corporate PR guys say too seriously, "geeks and otaku" are what made Nintendo what it is. Even though now they have large appeal with the "cool and normal" crowd, they should respect its original fanbase of 25 years before that. Especially the hardcore N64 and GC supporters.

I still consider myself a big Mario and Zelda fan to this day as they were series I grew up on. I do remember last generation, how people were criticized for liking those series. It's also the same way with Final Fantasy more these days, which I consider myself a loyalist to that series through thick and thin.

While Sony fans were mean last generation, it's easy for Nintendo fans to become the same way this generation being on top, and I have witnessed it quite a lot.

First year of the PS3, supporters of the console really had to stick together seeing very low sales and huge financial losses and constant doomsday talk from MS and Nintendo fans. For a while, there could be no discussion of FF 13 or MGS4 without people talking about them going multi-plat.

Agreed. I think a lot of people completely confuse "greed" with "business." I think Nintendo knows which risks are viable and which are not. Especially from learning from past mistakes(virtual boy, power glove, ect). Like any other business, Nintendo ofcourse is in it for the money. Their choice for taking the lower road in terms of technology could be interpreted as cowardice, but I don't see it that way. They are simply producing the highest quality product they can while making the highest possible profit. Nintendo isn't stupid, they know their fanbase will drop money on anything they release regardless. Now THAT could be interpreted as something else altogether - exploitation. Well, sounds like business to me.

ELFanatic
06-22-2008, 11:15 AM
I don't know much about corporations, I'm not an accountant for one but I'd imagine that each division is budgeted for that division. I'd imagine that they'd predict that the division alone could make up it's losses otherwise why not just shut down that division. I'd also imagine that after startup they'd imagine that that divison could pay for that division. If you have two branches, software which has accumulated a profit a billion after the last 5 years and then another branch which is a console developer which will now cost 3 billion of the software branches surplus to make it's next console then why keep that branch open? Just cut out the console branch and keep your 3 billion profit. that branch couldn't pay for itself. If that makes sense.

I think it's all marketing and research costs. Nintendo doesn't spend that extra cost in developing and testing console hardware fused with DVD player etc nor top of the line hardware for a console that puts out the best graphics possible. A penny saved is a penny earned. But then market the console and being purely for the games.

Not to mention Sony has a branch that builds DVD players. That research and development is practically already there. They already have a branch that is consistently working on making better and smaller DVD players. All sony needs to do is set aside enough money to integrate it into their console. So as long as they believe that a console/DVD player hybrid gimmick will pay for itself in the long run then it's worth it.


I think that several of the complaints made in this topic against the Wii can be summed up by one simple fact: Nintendo needs profits. There's a reason why Nintendo doesn't offer any online functionality, and it's because their online service isn't centralized: rather, it merely weeds out the connections via the friend codes. Nintendo says this is merely for protection purposes, but in reality it's because this is a far cheaper way of doing things.

Mediocre graphics? No DVD? No HD? All things Nintendo doesn't find cost effective.

Now, of course, some say this is due to Nintendo's infamous greed, which anyone in the NES/SNES era remembers. I disagree. The fact is while Nintendo is a gigantic corporation, they're still a drop in the bucket compared to Sony or Microsoft. Nintendo probably has about 10-11 billion in the bank right now...compare that to the tens of billions Sony and MS have to work with. And before you say that Nintendo can stand to sell stuff at a loss and then make it back, they really can't...since they don't have anything to fall back on. Sony makes music players, TVs, DVD players, and produces their own films. MS has a little operating system on Windows. These make far more profit (at least in MS's case), and thus their video game divisions can sell their products at a loss and not worry about it. Nintendo doesn't have that luxury, and therefore, they need to profit off of anything they sell. Hence why the Wii costs $250 when it probably makes about $100-$150 to make. So it's not that they don't want to compete punch for punch with the other guys - they just can't.

Also, it's worth noting that everyone and their brother thought that the Wii was going to be the third place system this gen. Hell, it was no less than 3-4 years ago that you couldn't walk into a message board without people saying Nintendo was going to give up hardware production, becoming a software-only developer and essentially going the way of Sega. Hence, Nintendo needed all the profit they could get - with the PSP on its way out and ready to suck up Nintendo's last vestiges of market share, they needed some way to keep from being buried.

Quantum9
06-22-2008, 11:27 AM
Agreed. I think a lot of people completely confuse "greed" with "business." I think Nintendo knows which risks are viable and which are not. Especially from learning from past mistakes(virtual boy, power glove, ect). Like any other business, Nintendo ofcourse is in it for the money. Their choice for taking the lower road in terms of technology could be interpreted as cowardice, but I don't see it that way. They are simply producing the highest quality product they can while making the highest possible profit. Nintendo isn't stupid, they know their fanbase will drop money on anything they release regardless. Now THAT could be interpreted as something else altogether - exploitation. Well, sounds like business to me.

It works the other way too. All Microsoft fans had to hear was "Halo 3 is coming" and they bought up the 360. The trailer for MGS4 had Sony fans running to buy a PS3. And for Nintendo, all it took was a trailer for Smash Bros. and they bought up their Wiis...Nintendo just had the added bonus of promoting to a burgeoning casual base as well, which has certainly worked out well for them in the long run.

As FinalEvangelion said, I don't think the Wii is a fad. I DO, however, think that unless Nintendo starts promoting more to the hardcore and fixing the Wii's issues, then there is going to be far more interest in the other two guys in the coming months. HDTVs are constantly dropping price and becoming affordable, and with Blu-Ray becoming the HD standard, it may just do for the PS3 what DVD did for the PS2. That's why I think this E3 is so important for Nintendo - especially since we KNOW what Sony and MS are going to show off due to previous Gamer's Days. The ball is in Nintendo's court, and there's not even a question that they're the ones with the most to prove. They're going into this E3 with only one game announced for Wii past July (Mario Super Sluggers), and nothing for the DS - so while we usually have a general IDEA of what the company will be showing, this year, not so much. With all the scrutiny Nintendo has been under from both the casual and gaming media as of late, this E3 could be the point that makes or breaks Nintendo, and could be the turning point in the console war.

demifiend
06-22-2008, 12:11 PM
A trend I expect to see in the next year or so is either the failure or the disappointing sales of other third-party Wii games that takes us to a kind of distorted deja vu of the Gamecube era.

What I mean by that is that, with the sheer number of consoles out there, major third party developers should reasonably expect huge sales (or, at least, the bean-counters will) in much the same way that every publisher and their dog put titles on the PS2. These games will either bomb or they will sell adequately, but nothing compared to whatever new Mario game they've slapped together (pessimism intended). Thusly, the highest-returning games on the system will either be Nintendo games or typical third party shovelware like Carnival Games, purchased by Wii owners who wouldn't know game quality if it walked up and bit them on the gluteus maximus (pessimism intended again).

Ergo, the games we want to play will not go away. Games like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Grand Theft Auto, and other major franchises sold fine before Wii. The major developers will probably throw their smaller, lower-risk franchises and, although it sounds dirty to say it, their party game and non-game ideas at the Wii in hopes of them sticking, turning a profit, and being used to fund bigger (and I believe better) ideas for the PS3 and 360.

So, Nintendo will be in the same boat as it was in the Gamecube generation; without the strong support of third parties, but not needing them either. I'm close to saying it's a two horse race in the video games business between Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo may be in the lead, but they're in the lead in an entirely different race wherein they are the sole competitor.

Quantum9
06-22-2008, 07:05 PM
I'm close to saying it's a two horse race in the video games business between Sony and Microsoft. Nintendo may be in the lead, but they're in the lead in an entirely different race wherein they are the sole competitor.

You were 100% right until you got here. The fact of the matter is, the Wii is still a part of the video game market. It is still a console, and deserves to be treated as such. Nintendo's mantra for the Wii is "disruption" - the "Blue Ocean" strategy, if you will. In other words, as you said, Nintendo has essentially created a new video game market for themselves, one where they are the sole competitor. That I agree with. What I don't agree with is that this now means that they aren't in the same market as Microsoft and Sony. They are still making a player of video games - and just because it is vastly different and marketed in a non-standard way does not mean that the company suddenly doesn't count as a part of the market.

demifiend
06-22-2008, 07:39 PM
Perhaps I used the wrong phrasing. But my thing (not really my thing exclusively) is that the Wii is not making the inroads into the hardcore gamer base like other systems. It's focusing on a market that, while it is still technically a video game market, is wholly separate in terms of who it's main clientele is. The "geeks and otaku" comment is, I believe, indicative of the way Nintendo sees the hardcore gamer base. We're demanding games as an art form and they make them on a purely business-based model. They have no place for us, but the PS360 does. So, thats what I meant by saying they're not in the same race.
Sorry if I confused things further.

Quantum9
06-22-2008, 07:49 PM
Well, I'm not looking for games as an art form. Would you call Call of Duty 4 art? How about Halo 3 or even GTA? No - but what they ARE is wicked fun. I'm not condemning stories in video games, as I think they are an essential part of any experience, but I AM saying that they should not be placed as a priority over making a game fun. Mario Galaxy and Zelda: Twilight Princess both had tremendous art direction, but they were also incredibly fun games. I wouldn't call either game art, but I think they both were a ton of fun.

And can we stop with the "geeks and otaku" comment? That was made by Laurent Fischer, Nintendo's head of European operations, who is also perhaps the worst executive that works for the company. He's said stuff like this before. All of Nintendo's other talking heads (Iwata, Miyamoto, Reggie) have never said anything condescending to the hardcore base. It's also worth noting that Fischer has apologized for his comment, and did state that Nintendo is working on a storage solution. The company is also supposedly making far more hardcore-oriented titles for E3. Trust me, Nintendo still loves us, they just don't show it very much.

FinalEVA
06-22-2008, 07:51 PM
I'd love to see another Star Fox title. What ever happened to that series?

LordDeus
06-22-2008, 07:52 PM
It works the other way too. All Microsoft fans had to hear was "Halo 3 is coming" and they bought up the 360. The trailer for MGS4 had Sony fans running to buy a PS3.

You are definitely right. It's really hard to argue this point, and this may be relative to only myself, but I'd like to express that even though those games such as MGS4 and Halo 3 could be interpreted as a way to exploit their fanbase in order to achieve guaranteed sales, I think there is a still a huge difference between them and what Nintendo can create.

For 1: If MGS4 ended up a crapfest, it wouldn't take long for the collective majority to start expressing disappointment. Even though the Wii isn't exactly trash, the fact that the gaming community was so passive in regards to how Nintendo turned a blind eye to advancing their video game technology in terms of audio, graphics, storage space, blah blah blah the list goes on, it took a fairly long time before people even began to speak up. Even still the loyal nintendo fanbase still almost feels ashamed for saying anything bad about Nintendo. Remember Chris Hecker's "piece of *$#!" comment? As unprofessional as that was, I think he may have gotten a different reaction from gamers if he had said it today - a more agreeable reaction.

2: This is also relative to myself, usually when I play a great game, I can virtually feel the passion from the developer when I play it. Certain games have a certain heart and soul, as cheesy as that may sound. I havn't felt that from a Nintendo game in a long time. Possibly the most recent was Animal Crossing on the DS. The newer Marios havn't done anything for me, and let's not even bring up the Twilight Princess.

And for Nintendo, all it took was a trailer for Smash Bros. and they bought up their Wiis

Actually all it took was the words, "Nintendo" and "$249.99." hehe

That's why I think this E3 is so important for Nintendo -

But what could they possibly offer us? Another Mario, Zelda, or Metroid? Big surprise Nintendo, you need more money, let's create another 1st party title to blindly excite the fanbase(including me, damn you Nintendo!). I would be surprised if it had anything to do with storage space or online improvements. I'll take the Wii for what it is, fine, but I'd be happy if they announced the removal of friend codes.

FinalEVA
06-22-2008, 11:56 PM
For 1: If MGS4 ended up a crapfest, it wouldn't take long for the collective majority to start expressing disappointment. Even though the Wii isn't exactly trash, the fact that the gaming community was so passive in regards to how Nintendo turned a blind eye to advancing their video game technology in terms of audio, graphics, storage space, blah blah blah the list goes on, it took a fairly long time before people even began to speak up. Even still the loyal nintendo fanbase still almost feels ashamed for saying anything bad about Nintendo. Remember Chris Hecker's "piece of *$#!" comment? As unprofessional as that was, I think he may have gotten a different reaction from gamers if he had said it today - a more agreeable reaction.



Yeah, Dan Houser recently said "F*ck all this stuff about casual gaming," went on to talk about the Wii and it's market. There was a lot less resistance from gamers then when Hecker made his comments a year ago. When Hecker commented, the Wii was still the "sweet little angel" saving the gaming world from the evil console that MGS4 was recently released on.

Nintendo can bring some of it's franchise back to help some of the hardcore gamers bring the Wiis out of their closets again. But, as Deus pointed out, many of the hardcore gamers still want the traditional upgrades we have seen every generation - RAM, CPU, GPU, audio, etc.

Probably many agree, but after playing MGS4, it's very difficult to want to scale back technologically.

Next generation, I see all three companies trying to make a compromise between hardcore and casual market. MS and Sony were in a big arms race this generation to make a powerful, but expensive console. Nintendo decided to add a new control scheme to last gen technology. There are many rumors of Sony and MS releasing a Play-mote and X-mote.

Pliskin
06-23-2008, 12:31 AM
You were 100% right until you got here. The fact of the matter is, the Wii is still a part of the video game market. It is still a console, and deserves to be treated as such. Nintendo's mantra for the Wii is "disruption" - the "Blue Ocean" strategy, if you will. In other words, as you said, Nintendo has essentially created a new video game market for themselves, one where they are the sole competitor. That I agree with. What I don't agree with is that this now means that they aren't in the same market as Microsoft and Sony. They are still making a player of video games - and just because it is vastly different and marketed in a non-standard way does not mean that the company suddenly doesn't count as a part of the market.

That's interesting though. Why were fans so fixated on their console selling the most units? Sure, pride could be part of it, but I think it had to do with exclusives and game variety. The bigger the install base, traditionally, the better the games on that system.

Problem being, the wii threw a wrench in that. Essentially, the entire paradigm for the wii changed, and its not getting the 3rd party support that many Nintendo Die-Hards seem to think is should. So is the Wii really winning anything? Its almost akin to adding PC's to the list since its an entirely different paradigm, and almost an entirely different use for those purchasing it.

I firmly believe that Wii, and PS360 are in completely different races. We don't go comparing Ferrari sales to Civic sales. Why do we need to do that with consoles?

Many people also champion for bringing videogames more into the mainstream, but I think this is also bringing the "videogames as art" movement backwards. Its great that elderly and soccer moms are playing wii fit and wii sports, but those games further the notion that videogames are simply... games. There's nothing greater to learn from them. They don't teach you a greater meaning. Put simply, when someone thinks of a videogame, they won't be thinking of something with an emotional impact, a story, or even depth. That's what really grinds my gears the most.

Quantum9
06-23-2008, 07:34 AM
I'm too lazy to quote, so i'll address various points made here.

Chris Hecker - His rant wasn't well received not because he made good points or because the Wii was the "sweet little angel". It's because to be honest with you, his rant was rather poor. It's supposed to be - it's called a rant. The Wii is two GameCubes duct taped together? Yep, he's right there. But what really upset me was that his evidence for Nintendo "not giving a s*it about gaming as an artform" was simply because in a google search, "games" and "art" only appeared a few times on their website, as opposed to many more on Sony and Microsoft's sites. Once again, it was a RANT. Not meant to be taken seriously, although I see it's already being used as ammunition.

Nintendo at E3 - LordDeus, you said it yourself. If Nintendo announced any franchise games, it would do A LOT. You would buy them, and I think a lot of people would too. Besides, who wouldn't want a new Kid Icarus? Or an online-equipped Animal Crossing? Disaster: Day of Crisis is made by Nintendo, and doesn't have Mario or Link in sight (not to mention a very mature premise). And The Conduit is rumored to be published by Nintendo itself, and that looks rather good to boot. And that can't be all Nintendo has up its sleeve. Nintendo has taken in the criticism into account, methinks, and E3 should show the fruits of that labor.

Pliskin - The videogame industry I've found is more unique than any other industry, as it is the one where brand name matters the most. That being said, the automotive industry is also far larger, and therefore deserves different markets. I don't see there being a point in splitting the market when there's only three competitors, as opposed to 20-30, if not more. And once again, I don't need video games as an artform, just as some way to have some fun and pass the time. Obviously you see gaming as something more, and that's fine - that's your thing. That's what's unique about gaming - there's something for everyone, just like the film or music industries. Sometimes I like to listen to an album or see a film with a greater meaning, and other times I just want to be entertained. Does that make the entertainment-oriented media inferior? Absolutely not, but it does make it a lot of fun to watch. It's the same with video games - you have your award-winning stuff and your not. Does that make the make the entertainment-based content any less a part of the industry? Absolutely not.

I just don't see why Nintendo deserved condemnation for their choice of what gaming means. You don't have to buy their system if you don't like it. I'm not denying that Nintendo needs to concentrate more on the core gamer and CERTAINLY needs to provide more control and assistance to third-party companies (two things they have not done whatsoever), but it's their choice if they don't want to, and with the money they are making, they don't need to.

kiddo_cosplaya
06-23-2008, 08:12 AM
I personally think that Nintendo would bring in more money, and happy fans if they re-released some games, (or remade them) that many fanbases love.
Hmmm...
I'll pick a couple large fanbases that want more games coming to their direction.
MOTHER franchise. It would be beautiful to see that game released on VC. (even though there are apparently no new installments...)
Starfox for the wii! That would be interesting! =D

And no, we do not want another Mario Party. (even those...can be fun. -.-)

LordDeus
06-23-2008, 08:34 AM
I personally think that Nintendo would bring in more money, and happy fans if they re-released some games, (or remade them) that many fanbases love.
Hmmm...
I'll pick a couple large fanbases that want more games coming to their direction.
MOTHER franchise. It would be beautiful to see that game released on VC. (even though there are apparently no new installments...)
Starfox for the wii! That would be interesting! =D

And no, we do not want another Mario Party. (even those...can be fun. -.-)


While there's no denying that it would be awesome to see a new and proper Star Fox sequel, or the rest of the Mother series localized, our argument here is that Nintendo doesn't have much else aside from 1st party titles. Personally, I'm like Pliskin - I want a much more visceral experience with my games on my Wii. Though there is absolutely nothing wrong with Quantum's preferences either.

I just want something more, not the same basic fun that I could go back to on my Atari 2600, NES, Genesis, ect ect to experience. Though don't get me wrong, I don't want simple games to die out. There's a lot of great original ideas still out there for simpler games, especially since the advent of XBLA, PSN, and VC.

Quantum8 - I really wasn't taking in consideration as to why Hecker said what he did, I don't think that really matters. He has an opinion(opinions should never be taken too seriously) that blew way out of proportion. Certainly if the situation and the present mindset of the gaming community had been what they are now, he would've received a different reaction. That's all I was saying - his circumstances aside.

Also, I'm glad the Wii has received the condemnation it has received. My biggest fear when the Wii was released was that developers would opt to create lesser quality(in terms of where we presently stood technology wise) titles on the Wii instead of high budget blockbuster titles on the 360 and the PS3 because the consumer wouldn't want to spend so much money on a HDTV and a high dollar console. I was afraid that gaming would fall into perpetual limbo of substandard technology, and we'd see less and less of the kind of games that SHOULD be coming out during this generation. I'm glad that's not at all how things turned out.

Hopefully you're right Quantum, hopefully Nintendo IS paying attention to it's criticism and realizes some of the things they could implement to finally benefit the GAMERS and not so much themselves.

FinalEVA
06-23-2008, 02:53 PM
For the discussion of whether the Wii is in direct competition with the PS360, it's best to break it down into two regions - The West (US/EU) and Japan.

The West - much like the automobile industry, the gaming market is growing as well. Eventually, the automobile industry had more options than the Ford Model T. As the Wii is selling like gang-busters, the PS3 and 360 are still increasing in sales over last year. Usually when there is room for one dominant console (as in the past), the "losing" consoles would taper off pretty quickly into the generation. Western devlopers can segment the market and release games that appeal to the PS360 crowd or Wii crowd. In this region, the Wii is more of an expansion than an inhibitor.

Japan - The cold hard truth is that the Wii is helping nail the coffin for hardcore gaming. Almost all the hardcore franchises from last generation are selling less this generation over there. The Wii is directly inhibiting the sales of the PS3 (MS has always been irrelevant in the Japanese market). Monster Hunter 3 and Fatal Frame IV are two games that were intended to see advancement over the last generation, but now they won't because the Wii is killing that. Expect Kingdom Hearts III to be the next game on that list. It's really now up to Final Fantasy XIII on whether hardcore gaming will be able to continue in that region.

Sorry for the bluntness, but that's the way I see it. For people who love jRPGs and Japanese games, dark times are ahead.

demifiend
06-23-2008, 04:39 PM
Sorry for the bluntness, but that's the way I see it. For people who love jRPGs and Japanese games, dark times are ahead.

Well, the only JRPG series I really follow hardcore is Shin Megami Tensei, and those games have never been graphics intensive. As for Japanese games... well, thankfully I've got Bioware's upcoming projects, Fallout 3, the WoW expansion, and Too Human to be excited about. Hardcore games are not going away; they're just being made closer to home now.

Quantum9
06-23-2008, 06:03 PM
It's really now up to Final Fantasy XIII on whether hardcore gaming will be able to continue in that region.

I'm surprised I'm being the one to bring this up and not Michi, but what about Dragon Quest IX? DQ is easily the biggest game series in Japan, and even with the move to a handheld platform, DQIX looks to be yet another vibrant, rich, HARDCORE installment in the series.

And MGS4 sold over 700,000 and brought the PS3 to #1 in its first week. True, the casual market is overtaking the hardcore one, but that doesn't mean that hardcore gaming is dead.

FinalEVA
06-23-2008, 06:17 PM
Dragon Quest IX actually furthers my point about Nintendo's "new direction". Quite simply, some aspects are being downgraded from DQ8 to DQ9 in the development process (PS2 to DS). I was really loving how DQ8 was pushing the limits of the PS2. When the DS announcement came, my excitement level just plummeted for the next game. I know gameplay/graphics, but I was really hoping to bask in HD glory for Dragon Quest.

TybaltFlux
06-23-2008, 06:52 PM
Woops, late for the thread.

Uh, I don't want to reiterate what everyone said as far as my opinion goes. Basically, a bunch of us grew up on Nintendo and love it because of what it brought us, so we follow them blindly. They've got the experience, so they have street-cred and what-not. Granted, now they've brought about something 'innovative' that seemed doomed at first, much like the DS, and much like the DS, they made the right decision.

I've always been adverse to casual gaming because it's like, "hey guys, you don't appreciate this as much as I do." They also make the same types of games run rampant (FPS's, free world roaming, and so on and so on, killing the hopes for newer innovative gaming to appear). So I do feel that even we, the Nintendo faithful, have to be a little pissed at them for that. But at the same time, it's not all Nintendo's fault- blame MGS4, Guitar Hero, GTA4, and so on, not just the Wii and the DS, despite what numbers say.

Anyways, /reiteration.

I would like, in the spirit of conversation about how hardcore gaming is dying down, to state how so many arcades throughout Japan are closing down. Namco arcades, specifically, are stating that the Wii is responsible for their closing down. Let's not even begin to talk about how the arcade death in America. It's a shame, because now we don't have the fourth medium of gaming (portable, console, PC being the other three) to present new types of gaming.

Leishu
06-23-2008, 07:03 PM
Ah yes...the numbers...lets look at them shall we?

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6950/numbersscankh7.jpg

Seems Metacritic doesn't agree with you...

*snort* I didn't realize that critics, rather than sales, were the sole measure of a game and system's success. Because, we know Critics can never, ever be bought. I'll have to go tell all of those gamestop owners that they should stop selling most Wii games right now because the producers of Kane & Lynch told them so through the reviewers that they paid off. I do realize that sometimes, and even often, reviews are right on the mark but I've played great games (in my eyes alone) that have scored in the 60s and 70s via metacritic and downright awful ones that have scored in the 90s. It is a flawed/incomplete measurement of game quality. So, to redact a bit, is sales.

I judge a "good game" on whether it 1: Has first-play value to merit its cost. 2: Has replay value to increase its worth. Yes. This means that I'm much harder on games than the average critic. To mitigate this, the number of "good games" on Wii, for me, is around ten. The number on PS3 is probably twelve or thirteen, depending on my mood. The number on X360 is probably a few dozen.


I'd love to see another Star Fox title. What ever happened to that series?

Unfortunately, the most recent two installments happened to that series. It will resurface, but not until after a large removal of bad taste from mouth.

Well, the only JRPG series I really follow hardcore is Shin Megami Tensei, and those games have never been graphics intensive. As for Japanese games... well, thankfully I've got Bioware's upcoming projects, Fallout 3, the WoW expansion, and Too Human to be excited about. Hardcore games are not going away; they're just being made closer to home now.


This interests me. I've heard things both ways about Fallout 3 but I'm a die-hard fan of the original and 2. Do you think that it will show to be a great title? Sadly, work has kept me from keeping up on it.

Quantum9
06-23-2008, 10:14 PM
Dragon Quest IX actually furthers my point about Nintendo's "new direction". Quite simply, some aspects are being downgraded from DQ8 to DQ9 in the development process (PS2 to DS). I was really loving how DQ8 was pushing the limits of the PS2. When the DS announcement came, my excitement level just plummeted for the next game. I know gameplay/graphics, but I was really hoping to bask in HD glory for Dragon Quest.

Dragon Quest has never been used to further what a system can do, just tell a good story and that's that. All of the DQs were far under what their respective could do, while Final Fantasy has always pushed the respective console to the limit. With the Square-Enix merger, the company is using DQ as their nice clean fun, casual RPG (hence why it's going portable with the DS), while FF has become the epic, graphically intensive adventure (which is why it's going to the PS3). Remember, FF and DQ are no longer simply game series - they are brands. Thus, S-E has to market them appropriately, and making two graphically intensive RPGs from both series to a console with maybe 15% marketshare in Japan and 20% overseas isn't the smartest move.

Pliskin
06-26-2008, 07:05 PM
http://kotaku.com/5020097/wii-castlevania-revealed-its-a-fighting-game#viewcomments

Ahem, a Castlevania fighter?

Oy. Guess a platformer was too "HARDCORE!!!111"? or what?

FinalEVA
06-26-2008, 07:33 PM
http://kotaku.com/5020097/wii-castlevania-revealed-its-a-fighting-game#viewcomments

Ahem, a Castlevania fighter?

Oy. Guess a platformer was too "HARDCORE!!!111"? or what?


That's a pretty big stab in the name of the series. But, I guess they are making an FF fighting game too.

Quantum9
06-26-2008, 08:04 PM
Hey, if Konami wants to make it, that's your call. I don't see how this questions the system's "hardcore" asperations.

Besides, the fact that the Wii will have Mega Man 9 prevents me from saying anything bad about it ever again.

LordDeus
06-26-2008, 08:42 PM
Besides, the fact that the Wii will have Mega Man 9 prevents me from saying anything bad about it ever again.

No kidding, I had a tear in my eye the moment I read is!! This is completely out of left field! I hope developers take note... retrogaming is far from dead! And the fact thats its being developed by the Mega Man X1-X3 team makes me even more excited.

Maybe I'll hold off on my Wii skepticism for awhile now :)

Leishu
06-26-2008, 10:25 PM
Whoa... that -is- news. Just... wow.

Infernoman
06-26-2008, 11:04 PM
ok...nintendo themselves stated that they'll be going after non gamers and everyone else who doesn't play games...they're not forcing a gun to your head to make you buy their games with waggle...I knew what I was getting into with my Wii the day I bought it...I buy it for the good mario games...any other games I have been enjoying are on PC or DS...

also at the end of the day...nintendo is still a company...they'll do what they can to make money...same with sony and Microsoft...you can hate them...but good luck making a difference...

nintendo will become the Mac of the gaming world...they'll build what they like and only cater to those willing to buy into what they make...

Pliskin
06-26-2008, 11:12 PM
Hey, if Konami wants to make it, that's your call. I don't see how this questions the system's "hardcore" asperations.

Besides, the fact that the Wii will have Mega Man 9 prevents me from saying anything bad about it ever again.

Its not so much that Konami wants to make it, its that Konami could've made anything for the wii, and they made that. They made something to cater expressly to the wii audience.

FinalEVA
06-27-2008, 08:01 PM
There is something that finally caught my interest for the Wii

A new jRPG called "Arc Rise Fantasia"

Here are some scans...

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/70243_arf1_122_1184lo.jpg

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/70244_arf2_122_402lo.jpg

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/70251_arf3_122_461lo.jpg

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/uploads/70253_arf4_122_1199lo.jpg

Pliskin
06-27-2008, 08:23 PM
There is something that finally caught my interest for the Wii

A new jRPG called "Arc Rise Fantasia"

Here are some scans...

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/upl...122_1184lo.jpg

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/upl..._122_402lo.jpg

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/upl..._122_461lo.jpg

http://gonintendo.com/wp-content/upl...122_1199lo.jpg

I nominate for most unintentionally hilarious post of the year.

FinalEVA
06-27-2008, 08:27 PM
I nominate for most unintentionally hilarious post of the year.

Oh. LOL. Wasn't thinking.

EDIT: Fixed. That should be better :)