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ChenCzen
11-17-2002, 03:33 AM
ive picked up this manga just recently... and it makes me wonder.

what if there were persocoms? more importantly, would i too fall in love with mine?

for fellow readers, we all know the many benefits they have. but the things they lack... how important are they really?

all the things i want could be replicated by a persocom or better yet a chobit. except for the ability to reproduce (um, not in the ghost in the shell sense. im talkin bout makin real babies).

what do we as humans have to offer each-other that would make us better than them? i keep wanting to find reasons why i would choose a real person but i cant find any...

Sami
11-17-2002, 01:44 PM
I would feel a little iffy sleeping in bed next to a hunk of metal with faux flesh over it.

But I don't think you'll have to worry -- we're nowhere near that level of technology, so you'll have to stick with real flesh and blood for now. :)

ChenCzen
11-17-2002, 01:56 PM
a hunk of metal covered in false flesh...

again im going to refer to ghost in the shell and ask does what we are made of make us human, or is it our abilities and thoughts?

if the only measure of our humanity is our bones and blood then we really arent that special. besides, theres a persocom equivelant to our body parts... cables instead of viens, cpu instead of a brain, hearts and batteries...

i just dont know... maybe i WOULD rather wake up next to a heap of metal covered in faux flesh if that heap loved me. theres no betrayal... they always have time for you...

Babbit_Chan
11-17-2002, 02:01 PM
I think they're going to be a major part of life in the future of we make that breakthrough.

Falling in love with a persocom... I don't think I could get used to knowing that if I loved a persocom it could never be the equalivant to a real human being that had a soul and was not PROGRAMMED.

P.S.: Nice new avatar ChenCzen :crylaugh:

Sami
11-17-2002, 02:07 PM
> Falling in love with a persocom... I don't think I could get used to knowing that if I loved a persocom it could never be the equalivant to a real human being that had a soul and was not PROGRAMMED.


Yeah, exactly. If something was programmed to love you than it would be really fake.. and you'd only be cheating yourself. ._. Someone that loved me because they wanted to, not because they were programmed to or because their circuits told them otherwise. I don't think anything can replace flesh and blood live born human beings, even though some people would like to believe otherwise because they have trouble in the love department or have been burned in the past. There's nothing easy about love, no matter who you are, and being led blindly to love someone (and be loved by someone) just isn't right; it's unfair to all those involved. ^__^ That's what I think.

ChenCzen
11-17-2002, 02:08 PM
but what is programming?

we are all programmed as human beings. programmed by the morals and ideas of our parents who raised us. programmed by our peers to conform or be made an outcast, programmed by schools... it may not be a series of 1s and 0s, but its the same thing. and chobits are capable of learning...

and what about souls? can you see or touch your own? does it even exist? i have never fallen inlove with someone elses soul so i dont know if thats even a factor for me.

Babbit_Chan
11-17-2002, 02:31 PM
Okay, so in a sense you could say that both humans and persocoms are "programmed". Maybe the difference is our life cycle and past. We ourselves were meant to dominate this earth and from the years it would take to create a persocom, in the end, while it could walk, talk, have common sense and morals, it would still only be a machine *created* by us - not really one of us. They're a product of technology - a machine to be put to common use for the benefit of man. Man has its own people to be with when it comes to relationships and love. You can displace your human love with a persocom, but it would never be the same as being with the one you should be with. Almost like loving a pet, I guess.

ChenCzen
11-17-2002, 03:26 PM
who says its almost like loving a pet? whos to define my love as being real or not, or on what level? only me.

humans are created from other humans. persocoms are created by humans... we are all creations.

Chosuke
11-17-2002, 03:34 PM
But the way Persocoms are 'programmed' is different then a way a human is 'programmed'.

Humans are programmed by what happens around them,what experiences they/Human race as a whole has been through down to the very street on which they were born and their parents personalities.

Persocoms are Programmed without experiences,pasts etc.
Though they were made by the hand of a human and therefore do hold some human personality attributes etc. they still have not lived to know of the hardships we have been through and have the same 'souls' we do.

Thats just my opinion.. HUZZAH

kitty_neko
11-17-2002, 03:38 PM
they can be programed from experience if they have learning software installed. i see the human race as being obsolete compaired 2 persocons. i would rather be one or have one. i mean, come on, they're perfect in every way

Chosuke
11-17-2002, 03:42 PM
But will a Personicon scream at you when you do something stupid?
Hit you when your being a moron?
Call you gross when you burp loudly after drinking a beer?
Drink beer with you and burp loudly while playing videogames?
Walk around in two day old clothes smelling bad?

Most likely,no. And its the little things like that that make a human.. disgusting or not it's always nice to know that not everyones perfect and your all individuals with little quirks and moments of stupidity ^^;

kitty_neko
11-17-2002, 03:44 PM
no offense, but ive never heard of anyone striving to be stupid. and i mean, u can program them so they have their own different personalities. if u wanted, u could even program one to be 'stupid' or not so perfect.

Chosuke
11-17-2002, 03:59 PM
No one 'wants' to be stupid.
But face it.. sometimes you make a mistake and do something stupid,everyone does.
What I meant is that not only can they never have random little quirks like every human.. perfect,engineered beings can never fully be like us.

Plus..I would get agitated being around someone who never makes mistakes ..x.x;

Spooky Brew
11-17-2002, 06:34 PM
I think as Batman put it: Our difference between any ohter creature is that we as humans have souls. But this topic was a while ago.....

kitty_neko
11-17-2002, 06:39 PM
souls....hmmm.....

define a soul..... im honestly curious

Spooky Brew
11-17-2002, 07:06 PM
A soul: The complex of human attribues that manifests as consciousness, thought, and will, regarded as distinct from the physical body. And it can also mean as well the Spirit survivnd death, Deep Feelings, Spiritual depth, and Essence.

avagoyle
11-17-2002, 09:37 PM
it all boils down to "what is real?" you can't tell if things are real or not. you can't tell if anything around you is real or imaginary.

if you fell in love with someone and they were replaced with an exact (but fake) replica, you could never tell that your love was "fake" because to you, it was real, and then it would be real.

Babbit_Chan
11-18-2002, 10:42 AM
I'm gonna go with what Avagoyle said.

ChenCzen
11-19-2002, 02:00 AM
but this thread isnt about 'could i be tricked into loving a persocom?'

what do we have as humans to offer each-other aside from offspring that would make me want to choose a human companion to a persocom?

im conflicted by the belief that i could fall in love with it if it loved me, but im also put-off by the fact that its just a machine.

but now i wonder what would become of my persocom after i died. it would miss me, and it would go on forever that way. and if i truely loved it i dont know if i could do that to it. its kinda like the movie A.I. at the end of the movie. hes only programmed to love his 'mom' but shes long dead. what remains for him?

engrish
11-19-2002, 05:53 PM
If it looks like a woman and acts like one then that's fine with me. I'm totally okay with machines :)

Besides a machine that advanced probably wouldn't stay the same forever. It would most likely evolve over time(thus becoming more advanced) as it experiences and learns new things. Then it would learn how to replicate or design different versions of itself and there will be a whole civilization of persocoms. Maybe that's the next evolutional step. Our descendants may not be of flesh and blood but instead machines.

Morbius
11-19-2002, 06:23 PM
I really think this can happen (maybe not in our lifetimes). I think it would be smarter to start a persocom with the mentality of a young child that way it can grow it's own personality based on it's reaction to the environment and people it interacts with. Sort of like Chi. But being a computer they can learn and advance very fast. Which makes me wonder how many would just snap and go crazy cause the burden of ignoring the bad and thinking good might be way to much for any chip to comprehend. But still if fail-safes were in place I think a computer could grow to gain it's own personality and experience. Then it wouldn't HAVE to be programmed to love anyone it could in essence learn to love someone based on how it is treated by them. Then should that person die they can move on to another that will care for them.

And if bioorganic technology advances I don't doubt that you will see a creatures walking in a mall that looks, acts, walks etc like a perfect human and yet is a machine. It's not that impossible at all.

I really think this is a great subject cause it really makes you have to truly question yourself and us as a race. Why we are the way we are etc. One reason why I love Evangelion towards the end. Because most people just go through life accepting the way things are by what they are told. But many times I think that is because it is an easy way to live then to question everything you're ever told to believe.

Adella
11-20-2002, 05:16 AM
one word: masturbate

Morbius
11-20-2002, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by Aeris
one word: masturbate


Yeouch.

Babbit_Chan
11-20-2002, 11:35 AM
Aeris: Eeeuughh... Nooooo!

avagoyle
11-20-2002, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by ChenCzen
but this thread isnt about 'could i be tricked into loving a persocom?'


could you be "tricked"? i don't think it was about tricking

and people fall in love with fake stuff all the time. money, power, illusions of people. they'll fall in love with persocoms. the question is more, could YOU stand knowing the the person you loved was not "real"?

i would not. therefore, i would not fall in love.

Adella
11-20-2002, 07:19 PM
I would not fall in love.. I would use him to cosplay as Cloud! ^o^

nekochan
11-20-2002, 09:52 PM
actually i've heard of people wanting to be stupid to fit in with peers. but that's off the subject. do you really want someone that's perfect? wouldn't you rather have someone that fights with you sometimes, or plays around <<in an innocent sense>> with you sometimes when you feel down? wouldn't you love to have someone tease you sometimes for little things, with inside jokes that only you two know incorporated? i think love and souls are what someone makes of them... i mean.. if you choose to love something or someone it's not because you just feel like it, it's because your heart is leading you into something deeper than that "2-D touch". people say i'm cynical and over-analyzing but i still believe in love. bleh i'm getting into that weirdo debate mode again.. sorri ^^ this is a good subject :)

ChenCzen
11-20-2002, 10:03 PM
>and people fall in love with fake stuff all the time. money, power, illusions of people. they'll fall in love with persocoms. the question is more, could YOU stand knowing the the person you loved was not "real"?

real? lemme ask you, when the person you love dies do you have to stop loving them because now they are a rotting corpse under 6 feet of dirt? of course not. we dont stop loving them because they are no longer alive, so why cant we love something that never was alive? a chobit is capable of genuine emotions, has its own personality, and isnt just a puppet.

so yes i think i could love a 'thing' and not a person.

Adella
11-20-2002, 10:29 PM
I love my Tifa plushie....

Babbit_Chan
11-20-2002, 11:35 PM
Aeris: I love my fish plushie as well XD

Chen: Could we settle and conclude that you could in fact, fall in love with a persocom and life would go on?

Adella
11-20-2002, 11:54 PM
I'm sure some people would fall in love with persocoms and others would not. They are so very realistic and do seem to think on their own and have their own personalities and stuff.

For the record: chii sux

ChenCzen
11-21-2002, 12:19 AM
yeah but what do you think the percentage would be?

in the story of the city with no people, the little bunny-persocom couldnt find anyone without a persocom.

and what about the changes a persocom dependant society would have. for example, how would men value women if the only thing they could do that a persocom couldnt would be to have children and preserve the species? what about our views/perceptions on things like beauty? pretty as miyu is for example, there will be persocoms who will surpass her...

Adella
11-21-2002, 12:24 AM
I bet they'd make persocoms to look like miyu so everyone could have one :O! ::secretly buys one >D::

I think that a society with persocoms, the majority of people WOULD fall for their persocoms. As Yumi and Ms. Shimizu both are examples of women who were cast aside for persocoms. ;_;

Babbit_Chan
11-21-2002, 12:51 AM
Poor Yumi and Ms. Shimizu (well, she's way past it since she hooked up with Shinbo LOL)

Ukayoru no Chou
11-21-2002, 01:07 AM
Shinbo rox ^_^ and so does Ms.Shimizu and Minoru ( ;_; )

Anyways, me being me - I think it would be possible for myself, but not with mucho grande kicking myself in the ass, and having mental issues over why I *am* in love with something that --that- and yea. *nod* So me being me ( again I say ) would probably go mentally insane. No, im serious. Either that, or I'd be locked in the house in a corner with said persacom @__@; So lets all say , I'd kick my own ass, and since I know better, would eventually find someone who I could love that was "Human" ..
but then again.... *runs off before typing more*

Babbit_Chan
11-21-2002, 11:04 AM
I'm gonna laugh when man pushes the limits of technology and screws up. Sorry, random thought.

avagoyle
11-22-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by ChenCzen
real? lemme ask you, when the person you love dies do you have to stop loving them because now they are a rotting corpse under 6 feet of dirt? of course not. we dont stop loving them because they are no longer alive, so why cant we love something that never was alive? a chobit is capable of genuine emotions, has its own personality, and isnt just a puppet.

so yes i think i could love a 'thing' and not a person.

your example is not the same. you will love your memory of that person, and in a sense, still love that person. you will not love the dead body, but who they were to you.

and a chobit IS a puppet. it was made.

my point is, it is a personal choice, up to each person. there are some who could never love something that they knew was not "real" while others could, because they would believe their love was "real"

we could be made for all we know. everything that we experience cuold be fake. we have no way of knowing. it matters only for the indivuals.

Adella
11-22-2002, 07:19 PM
Like I said... masturbation. ;)

Mei Lan Chang
11-23-2002, 12:48 AM
Psh. Why have the real thing when you could have cold metal lov'in?

.....Rhetorical question. Please don't answer that.

Adella
11-23-2002, 02:01 AM
Do they ever say if the chobits and persocoms are warm? I would expect them to be since my compie gets all warm and stuff.

Sirami
11-25-2002, 02:53 PM
I think that some people would fall in love with them, and others wouldn't. If they were engineared to actually be females, or males, than I don't see what would keep me from one. Chemical excreations are an important part of male to female love though. I suppose machines could be designed to excrete ferimones in the same fassion that humans do.

Other people would definately have problems with it; especially religious fanatics.

Basically, I don't think that there is anything that really seperates us humans from computer generated AI other than our complexety, and the way that we hold our memory. Our memory is associative, and current AI is conditional. If we could write programs that learned like humans do, and had the same sensory input that humans do, they would be just as human as everybody else, in my opinion.

John Booty
11-25-2002, 03:22 PM
If a machine could be created that would be the same as a human from an emotional and mental standpoint, I suppose there really wouldn't be any difference between that and a person.

However, I don't think such a machine will be created any time in the near future. I'd say it's 50 years away at the soonest, probably more like 100 years away, and there's a strong possibility it will never happen in any timeframe.

I don't think the brain can really be simulated by the current kind of computer hardware we have today. I don't mean that our hardware isn't fast enough, I mean it's fundamentally much different than the human brain and therefore not well-suited to simulating it.

Today, we can build machines that "learn" how to deal with very specific situations and sets of rules in closed situations. We could build a home that learns your habits and preferences and eventually turns on the lights and adjusts the heat/AC automatically. We can build robot arms for assembly lines that make certain adjustments on their own. I even read about a robot that could move around the crowd at weddings and take pictures of people.

But we're really nowhere near building a general-purpose computer that would just simply learn ANYTHING and be it's own lifeform and act on its own, like a human would.

And even if you could build something that intelligent, I doubt it would be just like a human.

Babbit_Chan
11-25-2002, 07:17 PM
I just wanted to bring up a line that come up a lot towards the end of the anime (I suppose it was in the manga too):

"There are some things a persocon can do. There are some things a persocon can't do. There are some things a human can do. There are some things a human can't do."

John Booty
11-26-2002, 12:15 PM
Chobits always reminds me of the "Are 'Friends' Electric?" song by Gary Numan who was best-known for the 80's hit "Cars".

Sometimes I wonder if "Are 'Friends' Electric?" was actually the inspiration for Chobits. Of course, the theme has appeared zillions of times in sci-fi, so I don't know if there's a direct connection. But anyway the song's about robot "friends" that replace people. It's creepy.

There's a line in the song that's something like:

"Except mine's broke down / And now I've no one to love"

...that reminds me of so many scenes from Chobits, especially the old Persocom of the pastry-shop owner. I keep meaning to do a AMV with Chobits, set to this song. At any rate, it's a cool song, you might want to download it.

Hungryjack
11-26-2002, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by John Booty
"Except mine's broke down / And now I've no one to love"


Cherry 2000 :) :D :)

Choice
11-30-2002, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by ChenCzen
its kinda like the movie A.I. at the end of the movie.

yeah, i was gonna go into this. while i think it would somewhat possible to fall in love with persocoms, it would be like that question from ai. its not whether that you could get the robot to love you, but if you had a robot that loved you, never changing in a freezeframe, no matter what you did, what responsibility would you have toward it? wouldn't that take the fun out of it? and now that theres no chase, who'll saw you'll love it anymore?

Originally posted by John Booty
Chobits always reminds me of the "Are 'Friends' Electric?" song by Gary Numan who was best-known for the 80's hit "Cars".


that made me smile. i have a friend thats a huge numan head.

PretearWink
11-30-2002, 09:43 AM
I think this is a really good topic with great points of views on either side, and it's gotten me thinking.... (be the way Aeris, I want a Tifa plushie! I saw one on e-bay once but it was going for 100 dollars! There was a Cloud and a Sephy too! *sob*)

Perhaps the root of it is not people vs. machines, but our perception of love itself.

Love is many things to many people. But do we over idealise love? Can love really, trully, overcome the built-in flaws that make us human?

Humans can do, say, and think horrible things about the people they love and the people who love them. Generally, I think most people try to work through the flaws and dwell on what makes them find happiness in eachother.

But you can't change who a person fundamentally is. So then, what is the point? I don't mean to get all angsty or anything, but I honestly want to know... what do you think the definition of love is? And by that definition, could a persocom be just as valid to be loved as a human being?

I think that you could fall in love with one without having the mindset of "I'm going to love my persocom". If you can love someone past their drinking problems, why can't you love someone past the metal inside?