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Kaijugal
11-29-2005, 04:22 PM
http://www.connobaka.com

DJ_Izumi
11-29-2005, 07:43 PM
Wow, it doesn't say anything about 'everything going wrong'.

Vicky
11-29-2005, 09:00 PM
They said "While we understand that many were disappointed with the convention, please keep the tone in polite language."

i think "disappointed" is probably too nice a word to use, by the sounds of it.

dani
11-29-2005, 09:59 PM
I think not updating the page on saturday night with the latest news was an insult to people planning to go just for sunday.

Chibik3r0
11-29-2005, 10:03 PM
I wouldn't really call that as much of an update as I would a disassembly of the webpage.

Alexia Ishtar
11-29-2005, 11:30 PM
or y'know...absolutely nothing at all O.o is it just me or did it vanish?

Jo_Canadian
11-29-2005, 11:39 PM
i think they are making it difficult for the general public to contact them unless they saved their emails

Alexia Ishtar
11-30-2005, 05:37 AM
That's horrible, I think they owe the people who went, Deallers, Cosplayers, Guests, etc...and OFFICIAL apology for what happened ~_~ So unprofessional.

TribalButterfly
11-30-2005, 07:33 AM
"please keep the tone in polite language."

??? ??? ???

Ur kidding me, right?
They actually Asked that?

mokulen22
11-30-2005, 10:17 AM
:( They seemed to have taken down the statement.

ikegami
11-30-2005, 11:27 AM
:( They seemed to have taken down the statement.

No, It's still there: (bold mine)

Dear patrons,

Please visit our website in the upcoming weeks as updates are made.

:-) We will be posting photos from our photography area and announcing the winners of the costuming contest! Check back here for further details. Link to come soon :)

The AMV contest winners can be viewed here. Other contest announcements to follow.

Information regarding the convention and its status will be posted as of December 5th, 2005. Explanations and apologies are forthcoming. Specific questions may be forwarded to chair@connobaka.com.

The forum, of course, is still open for those who wish to voice their opinions. While we understand that many were disappointed with the convention, please keep the tone in polite language.

mokulen22
11-30-2005, 11:51 AM
No, It's still there: (bold mine)

Oh, dumb me -- that's what I get for only reading the first line -- when I read the first line I assumed with the site down the statement was gone.

Vicky
11-30-2005, 12:14 PM
I think they owe the people who went, Deallers, Cosplayers, Guests, etc...and OFFICIAL apology for what happened ~_~

Call me crazy but... although that WOULD be the logical thing to do, I don't see them doing it themselves -_- I'm kind of getting that impression, to be honest.

phaedrus
11-30-2005, 12:45 PM
Their official apology is probably to not do Con no Baka anymore. Who is going to go?

Amy the Yu
11-30-2005, 02:29 PM
Their official apology is probably to not do Con no Baka anymore. Who is going to go?I'd go again, so long as Aaron's not the one running the show. >_>

I've been to a lot of anime conventions (in Canada and the USA) and CnB has been the worst of them all in almost every aspect. Somehow, that seems to be one of the more amusing things about CnB. I think CnB put the Hobbystar mini-cons to shame in terms of being a "GhettoCon". XD

Otaking97
11-30-2005, 04:55 PM
I will always remember the announcement at CnB as being one of the best things ever happening at a con.

I can say "I was there when they announced the con was cancelled". I'm glad I went just for that.

Amy the Yu
11-30-2005, 05:09 PM
I can say "I was there when they announced the con was cancelled". I'm glad I went just for that.I will drink to that. XD

archangeli
11-30-2005, 09:19 PM
I will drink to that. XD

Cheers! :drink:

Vicky
11-30-2005, 10:39 PM
So does that mean they're actually going to try the con again? @_@;

DJ_Izumi
11-30-2005, 10:58 PM
So does that mean they're actually going to try the con again? @_@;
I'm sure they'd have no problem trying agian. Except that no guest or attendee would touch the convention with a stick.

Amy the Yu
11-30-2005, 11:16 PM
So does that mean they're actually going to try the con again? @_@;No idea if there's any truth to it, but I did hear something about Aaron coming up with the idea of giving another event a go to show that he CAN do it.

shiro_hikaru
12-01-2005, 12:47 AM
No idea if there's any truth to it, but I did hear something about Aaron coming up with the idea of giving another event a go to show that he CAN do it.
...no offensive but I agree with the previous comment, no one would touch, not only would people be suspicious of it flopping again alot of people just don't want to have to waste their time dealing with what to this point has still hasn't been settled (ie. dealer's reimpursement)

Kohana
12-01-2005, 06:05 AM
I don't see anyone willing to risk it at this point... especially the dealers....I dont think they'll touch that con with a 10ft clown pole..... but perhaps if it was ran as a one day thing with a new name in a different place people might be more likey to attempt it....

but as a side note me and friend now refer to CnB as "Crash 'n Burn Con"

DJ_Izumi
12-01-2005, 07:05 AM
"You've been invited to be a guest at Con No Baka: The Second!"
"So... I should pay for a back up hotel room incase you try to eject me from the free one you're giving me while I'm 6000 miles from home, huh?"

Vicky
12-01-2005, 10:06 AM
Actually, I see quite a few people giving Con no Baka another chance.

Otaking97
12-01-2005, 04:39 PM
People like cons....period. Most people have nothing better to do and so will go. Hell I would go again too! Who knows what chaos would happen the second time! It would probably be very interesting. I would sign up for panels and stuff this time though! Hahahhaha. Even if I didn't the price would have to be around $20 and under for me to go.

shiro_hikaru
12-01-2005, 11:44 PM
No, I would definitely go, I just wouldn't hestitate in leaving my dealer's item behind. It one thing to go to a con as a congoer and quite another as a dealer, in what CnB did in terms of dealer's was break and scrutinize their relations with those dealers', I can't speak for anyone else but I as a dealer would not go to event especially knowing the risk it may involve.

As a congoer, which I prefer, I would love to go agreeing that people will go to cons regardless of the reputation, with the intent of hanging out and seeing friends, why not? I might try and sneak in to the con as a panelist or something else, but I would not boycott the con on terms of failing my non-financial goals for the weekends.

lainey
12-05-2005, 06:33 PM
The website (http://connobaka.com/) has been updated.

Unfortunately the apology link to the dealers and artists is not working...

However the apologies to the attendees can be found here:
http://connobaka.com/apology.htm

They also included some excuses of why they didn't post the news about Hobbystar giving free admission to Con No Baka attendees on the main page...

Interesting on how they point fingers at others...

Tsukasa_1
12-05-2005, 06:45 PM
It was expected though neh?

Amy the Yu
12-05-2005, 06:58 PM
CnB...please do us a favour, and shut the F*^& up.

Seriously, Hobbystar and Dawn seem to be getting BLAMED for it...WTF. Neither is affiliated with CnB and it's not like any of them owe CnB anything.

There whole finger pointing for DTAC is just stupid and rubs me in all the wrong ways possible. =_=

Kohana
12-05-2005, 07:02 PM
CnB...please do us a favour, and shut the F*^& up.

Seriously, Hobbystar and Dawn seem to be getting BLAMED for it...WTF. Neither is affiliated with CnB and it's not like any of them owe CnB anything.

There whole finger pointing for DTAC is just stupid and rubs me in all the wrong ways possible. =_=


Well said, preach on sista!

ikegami
12-05-2005, 09:23 PM
Unfortunately the apology link to the dealers and artists is not working...

The correct URL is
http://www.connobaka.com/dealersartists.htm

Amy the Yu
12-05-2005, 09:40 PM
The correct URL is
http://www.connobaka.com/dealersartists.htmOh...that's just beautiful...he breaks the contract and then accuses others.

Suck it up Aaron and shove it back up your ass with the other shit you've been dropping. =_= *even more peeved*

Chibik3r0
12-05-2005, 10:04 PM
He seriously needs to pull his head out of his ass before he posts these so called apologies... Don't even get me started on the spelling errors -_-

I enjoy how on the dealer apology he's SO quick to blame those dealers who were unruly. It's completely unnecessary in the grand scheme of things. WHO CARES? Your con failed miserably so there's no need to pass the blame on to other people.

Also, why the hell do we care that you didn't post the Hobbystar DTAC bonus thing on your main page? It'll still be a better con that you pulled off. And WHY try to blame Hobbystar and Kaijugal for something that I don't even know. We don't need to know why you didn't post the news.

"Nor did they choose respond to any of the conciliatory emails we sent them or voice mails we left with them." Gee, not responding to emails? Doesn't that sound familiar. I just don't get ANY of the reasoning behind why they didn't post the discount. IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE.

Vicky
12-05-2005, 10:14 PM
That has to be the most unprofessional thing I've ever read.
People don't POINT FINGERS at specific companies on their professional websites.
Also, "We were all disappointed by what happened at Con no Baka" doesn't really sound to me like he's accepted the fact that "what happened" was him.

heki-chan
12-05-2005, 10:24 PM
HAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA!

Why the heck are they even talking about HobbyStar and Dawn?

If they had time to email and call them, they had time to post the information on the website (not that it really makes that much a difference =P ).
What else did they need to know from HSM and Dawn?
Geez, the stupidity here is overwhelming.

Using spelling and grammar check on any "official public announcements" is probably a GOOD idea. =P

"For Dealers, the situation is a little more complex. We will return 1/4 of the cash payment made to us. Several of you, such as Another Dream, refused to accept gift certificates Saturday night, and it will be difficult for us to confirm who refused or who still accepted them."

Translates to: I changed my mind again for the 3rd or 4th time regarding refunds! I will attempt to lower costs incurred to myself by blaming the dealers who refused to accept the illegitimately and unethically dispersed gift certificates. And then I will project this reasoning to all the dealers and save some more money! =D =D =D

---------
At this point, I am pretty sure I won't see any type of refunds from CnB, why? *points below*

"Currently, we simply do not have the available resources to cover the 1/4 of the convention table fees, we will attempt to do so in future months as we build up the funds to cover this."

Keyword: attempt.

shiro_hikaru
12-05-2005, 10:24 PM
...the fact that "what happened" was him.
Thank you Vicky, that made me giggles

Vicky
12-05-2005, 10:41 PM
LOL no problem :)

Heki is right, I thought the lack of proper punctuation and such was quite amusing as well *sigh*

Alexia Ishtar
12-05-2005, 10:49 PM
Is it just me or did that really not come across as an apology?

can we say "DENIAL" (spelt it right too ^.^)

Derwin Mak
12-05-2005, 11:25 PM
I knew this would happen. Well, he's thrown down the gauntlet, so now the gloves have to come off.

I don't even know why he should bother with an apology if he's going to blame others. According to him, the only thing he did wrong was to want to hold such a "grandiose project" or a "wide-ranging convention". Yep, his sin was to want to create a good convention.

What I find appalling is how he blames the "numerous people" who offered to help and didn't show up. However, there were numerous people, including some well-experienced cosplayers and veteran convention workers, whose advice and help he rejected because he had to follow his "vision". With the people he did recruit, in many cases, he didn't tell them what their roles were until the convention started, and by then, it was too late for them to get organized. For example, the photographers never knew that they were supposed to set up the photo area (Now I'm quite impressed that they eventually did, despite the wrinkled sheet and lack of resources and supplies given to them on Friday and Saturday morning).

Think of it: almost all the Con No Baka concom, staff, and volunteers were experienced people from Toronto Trek, Ad Astra, and Anime North. Yet Con No Baka was already collapsing on Friday afternoon, a day before the hotel wanted either the money or the rooms. How did such a group with hundreds of years of combined experience wind up in this fiasco? I don't believe it's their fault; if anything, it's due to them that the convention lasted past Friday night. Could the problem actually have been at the top of the organization?

Nowhere does he mention that he didn't plan anything other than gaming and panels in advance (by the way, it was Fingers Delarus and Dave Greenlaw who planned the panels). Some insiders told me he only started planning some tracks and events as late as the Tuesday before the convention. He had nine months to set up departments, appoint department heads, schedule videos, make equipment lists, order supplies, test his computers and printers, etc., but he began 3 days before the convention.

This all is reminiscent of his effort to produce the Aurora Awards in 2000 (where Toronto Trek sent someone to replace him at the next-to-last moment because he wasn't doing any planning for it.)

Aaron would've been better off just issuing a brief, plain apology, no excuses, no finger pointing, mea culpa. Now he's opened himself up to more criticism and ill will. Smart move.

Derwin

Amy the Yu
12-06-2005, 12:50 AM
Well, he's thrown down the gauntlet, so now the gloves have to come off.Although I do think one good thing came out of it.

Where as the community usually has small squabbles all over the place, Aaron's huge movement towards drama has unified the entire community...against him.

He's going to go down hard for it, but everyone involved is now one big family with a common goal for vengence if he doesn't do something GOOD soon (which he has been failing to do so far).

Anime Dave
12-06-2005, 12:59 AM
Lainey, Amy,

Unfortunatly, Hobbystar is seen within local fan-run/not-for-profit convention circles as a preditory convention. So, this was seen by some as just another attempt to try and secure the local fandom market even more. I'm also sure that there are some (not myself) who probably now feel that by shrilling so much over this, that Dawn has 'Sold out to the 500 lbs. gorilla that want's to be the only kid on the block.'

The problem is that these people have spent so many years - and in the case of some, it is years - to promote their fandom simply for the joy of it. Then comes along Hobbystar, who seems to them to not want to play with everyone else, and seems to be in business purely for the money. Unfortunatly, it is a case where egos get in the way - and not just on the side of the fan cons, as I personally believe that Aman has a few people helping him in organizing who may have personal beefs with their respective fandoms, and thus feel a need to 'prove themselves'.

This is probably why there is so much apparent hostility by Aaron and others against Hobbystar and Dawn.

Personally, I think that Dawn may have been a little too enthusiastic in promoting this - especially when she posted one reply in response in a larger all-red font. This is one reason why I feel that some people may now feel that she has 'sold out' to Hobbystar.

heki-chan
12-06-2005, 01:18 AM
Lainey, Amy,

Unfortunatly, Hobbystar is seen within local fan-run/not-for-profit convention circles as a preditory convention. So, this was seen by some as just another attempt to try and secure the local fandom market even more. I'm also sure that there are some (not myself) who probably now feel that by shrilling so much over this, that Dawn has 'Sold out to the 500 lbs. gorilla that want's to be the only kid on the block.'

The problem is that these people have spent so many years - and in the case of some, it is years - to promote their fandom simply for the joy of it. Then comes along Hobbystar, who seems to them to not want to play with everyone else, and seems to be in business purely for the money. Unfortunatly, it is a case where egos get in the way - and not just on the side of the fan cons, as I personally believe that Aman has a few people helping him in organizing who may have personal beefs with their respective fandoms, and thus feel a need to 'prove themselves'.

This is probably why there is so much apparent hostility by Aaron and others against Hobbystar and Dawn.

Personally, I think that Dawn may have been a little too enthusiastic in promoting this - especially when she posted one reply in response in a larger all-red font. This is one reason why I feel that some people may now feel that she has 'sold out' to Hobbystar.


:square: But Dawn always posts in a different colour, and sometimes different size or font-face *shrug*

I don't really see why CnB and whoever else should be ticked at Hobbystar OR Dawn. CnB didn't fail because of them, it did that on it's own lol!

From a marketing standpoint, HSM's DTAC decision was extremely well implemented. I don't think it's cashing in (since...they lost money technically, lol), but rather just taking an opportunity that arose to improve their public relations.

Another thing I don't really understand...why do some people always get their panties in a wad over a convention that is run with making a profit in mind?
It's OKAY to be a for-profit convention. There's a market for it, so why not?
The whole "it's cashing in on the fandom" doesn't really fly, as scifi/anime fandoms are pretty involved with merchandising anyway.

Anime Dave
12-06-2005, 01:39 AM
I think that the reason that some people 'get their panties in a wad' is because they feel that it's just plain wrong to cash in on their fandom. The other problem that I've seen over the past decade - going back to before AN, to UTARPA - is that there are some people within fandom for whom running these events are the end all and be all of their importance - or more suscinctly, they do this just to boost what they see as their fragile ego.

So, a company that comes along, like Hobbystar, that has the resources to go after the BNG, and rent the larger venue, is seen as a direct affront to that very existance of being important in their little community.

And yes, those fandoms are heavily involved in merchandising - but that doesn't get in the way of their logic.

And besides, I fully agree that Hobbystar performed a great marketing coup here.

BTW, I always saw Dawn's posts in green, so that's why I thought it was weird for her to post in red that one time. And the more I think about it, the more I feel she did so in order to stop all the "But is my badge good to use?" questions. :cool:

Anime Dave
12-06-2005, 02:58 AM
Nowhere does he mention that he didn't plan anything other than gaming and panels in advance (by the way, it was Fingers Delarus and Dave Greenlaw who planned the panels).
Derwin

Actually, Derwin, for the record it was Fingers who planned the panels. :) All I did was step in on Friday to make sure things revolving around those panels didn't go to S*** - even though everything else eventually did. :sulk:

lainey
12-06-2005, 07:19 AM
*sighs* I do not wish to argue and I wasn't going to post this, but I do have a few small points to say.

1. How come the apology was so poorly written, considering how much time there was to write it? That apology actually made people even MORE angry.
I am extremely upset that Hobbystar and Dawn were blamed publicly for a reason that they were not obligated to. Don't forget that they don't really have anything to do with Con No Baka officially.

2. Why is the announcing of DTAC so important? We don't care about your excuses of not announcing it :)

3. Con No Baka treated the dealers and artists horribly. There is no way you can beat around the bush to blame it on them. How dare they BLAME them for being unprofessional when they were lied to and misled by Con No Baka themselves??

dani
12-06-2005, 08:14 AM
I never thought I'd find myself defending Hobbystar, but they have a product to offer. Take it if you like it, don't take it if you don't. End of story.

The machinery to make a con work wouldn't run without for-profit components, regardless of who is organizing it. The venue itself, the A/V equipment, the printing, the advertising, the merchandise. All those elements are brought to you by Eeeevil profit.

Now... if the plan is ONLY driven by profit, some aspects may get overlooked. THIS IS WHERE DAWN COMES. She injects non-revenue elements into their framework, just for the enjoyment of the fans.

One example: CNA masquerade. She could let Hobbystar run another of their dreaded Cosplay Idol contraptions, or she could AS A VOLUNTEER organize a proper masquerade. Does she take the lazy option, or the one that involves lots of unpaid hard work?? We should be glad she takes the second.

Whoever says Dawn sold out doesn't know SQUAT about how much of her energy is spent just for the pleasure of providing con goers a good experience.

An on the original subject of CnB and Aaron, it's just pityful to label that blaming game "an apology". But that's ok. It's only his credibility on the line. Whatever is left of it...

Vessa-Sushi
12-06-2005, 08:51 AM
*flexes fingers* Alright, time for me to have my say, just because everyone else has, and it seems to be the thing to do.

"The forum, of course, is still open for those who wish to voice their opinions. While we understand that many were disappointed with the convention, please keep the tone in polite language"

What is wrong with this? Nothing. Obviously they don't mind people complaining, but is it that wrong to ask us to keep it from being a giant cuss fest? I don't think so. They aren't asking us to curb our opinions, just not to get violent about it.

The Attendees Apology:
I've read it over a few times now, and though it is a sad apology, at least it's something.
He explains what went wrong (if not in total detail), and says sorry for it.
" It was not a good choice to create such a grandiose project as a first convention. Many of my friend told me so, but I had hoped that the promise of a wide ranging convention would draw in many more than it did"
He admits (if maybe forced to do so) that it wasn't wise to make such a large project for a first convention, but he had hopes it would bring people in because of the wide range of events...despite his friends telling him otherwise.

The Dealers Apology:
Yes, it was wrong for him to point fingers at some dealers, but really...if I was running something, and someone booked a table late and didn't pay, would I trust them? Not really. But that isn't the point, is it? Aaron is saying that he will pay back the tables, when he can. Obviously the man is strapped for cash because of this, but at least he is trying to make things right. Some money back is better then nothing.

As for the Hobbystar announcement....how is he blaming them for anything? He just mentioned that there was no offical word from Hobbystar about the announcement, just what Dawn had left on message boards. I would want to get ahold of Hobbystar head honchos myself to see if this was true or not, before telling all those who went to CnB about the offer, and then watch them all get rejected at the door. Luckily, this wasn't the case, and it was cool of Hobbystar to make the offer.

A lot of this post doesn't make sense, and I don't really care right now. Everyone is jumping down Aarons throat, even when he makes an effort to right things. People are saying they won't attend another CnB, but what's the point in that? If another one is announced in the makings, instead of shunning it completely, give your advice and opinions to whoever is in charge (but be civil about it at least). If you want to make it better, offer your help as a volunteer (but don't bail without reason or notice). Things went extremely awry, but it's not the end of the world. Give the man a little break, please. Perhaps the next CnB (if it goes by that name) will be better, if only because of the experiences Aaron learned this time around, and because we as con goers are willing to help out.

Gah..this whole post is garbage, but whatever.

~Vessa

P.S - So what if his grammer and spelling was a bit off? So what if the apology was a bit lame? At least he made the attempt at an apology, after everyone harped about not getting one.

(And as for people who are going to get angry at me for this post...oh well.)

mokulen22
12-06-2005, 09:25 AM
From what I understand, after reaading most thread on the subjust of CnB, no one was interested in "why the con failed" explaination -- I think most people seemed beyond "why" -- a simple, short and to the point "I'm sorry" seems to be what the majority wanted (and, of course, a refund). I believe the spelling/grammer is an issue b/c it shows lack of care, if you don't even take the time to click SpellCheck then what sort of apology is that?

Brita_Lee
12-06-2005, 10:09 AM
I wonder what exactly CnB is trying to prove by constantly "defending" themselves and "pointing fingers"? To me, and many others, this con is a lost cause.

Its been stated time and time again before the whole DTAC entreance matter, that the con was never going to happen again, and we hadn't heard a thing from CnB (for the most part). Then suddenly, when news of DTAC's offer arrises, suddenly the fingers start clabbering away at whose to blame and why this and that is being done. Its sad and pathetic how much they're trying to "clean their image". Look, you just CANNOT get the blood stains off this one people. Its a lost cause, end of story. Thats my opinion anyway.

And Vessa, you bring up some valid points, and I wouldn't worry about anyone giving you a hard time about it. ^^ Your opinion, though different from the majority, is important none the less.

Derwin Mak
12-06-2005, 12:14 PM
I never thought I'd find myself defending Hobbystar, but they have a product to offer. Take it if you like it, don't take it if you don't. End of story.

The machinery to make a con work wouldn't run without for-profit components, regardless of who is organizing it. The venue itself, the A/V equipment, the printing, the advertising, the merchandise. All those elements are brought to you by Eeeevil profit.

Now... if the plan is ONLY driven by profit, some aspects may get overlooked. THIS IS WHERE DAWN COMES. She injects non-revenue elements into their framework, just for the enjoyment of the fans.

One example: CNA masquerade. She could let Hobbystar run another of their dreaded Cosplay Idol contraptions, or she could AS A VOLUNTEER organize a proper masquerade. Does she take the lazy option, or the one that involves lots of unpaid hard work?? We should be glad she takes the second.

Whoever says Dawn sold out doesn't know SQUAT about how much of her energy is spent just for the pleasure of providing con goers a good experience.

I agree with Dani. On the micro-economics of conventions:

Even the not-for-profit conventions strive for a profit, but the motivation is different. For-profit conventions want the profits to enrich their owners' personal wealth. Not-for-profit conventions want the profits to recover their costs plus acquire money to hold the next year's convention and possibly expand some activities. Hence, not-for-profit conventions typically operate on a cost recovery model and treat their departments, activities, events, masquerade, etc., as "cost centres". That is, their job to spend a certain budget.

For-profit conventions try to reduce their cost centres because cost centres don't increase profits and replace them with "revenue centres" a.k.a. "profit centres". That's why for-profit conventions often have relatively-low admission fees but charge various extra fees for the special reception with a Star Trek actor or for a concert, etc. If there is an attraction, feature, event, or person whom people will pay money to see, it will become a revenue centre. This is the great strength of the for-profit convention: bringing in high-priced celebrities.

However, many of the more community-based activities of a fan-run convention are cost centres. Nobody is going to pay money to watch a panel discussion of fans or writers or listen to a scientist or visit an art show. Hence, for-profit conventions devote a comparatively small amount of time and space, if any, to these features. If they do appear at a for-profit convention, they're relatively small and simple to keep the costs down.

The masquerade is a cost centre. Even though it's popular, nobody is going to pay to watch other fans, and no cosplayer is going to pay to enter a masquerade. What would be the highlight of a fan-run convention's Saturday night becomes a drain on the wealth of the owner of a for-profit convention. Hence, for-profit conventions, if they have a costume contest at all, tend to hold simple contests in "Idol"-like style or with a few of the owner's friends as judges.

This is where the judging gets really bad. If the judges are the owner's friends, with maybe a celebrity thrown in, they're going to give the first prize (no divisions, no workmanship awards, no presentation awards here; just first, second, third, etc., prizes) to the hottest girl who wears a store-bought swimsuit with a pair of bunny ears. Not that this girl doesn't deserve a presentation award if she has a funny presentation, but more often than not, she doesn't, and in any case, there aren't presentation awards. And she often gets the top award.

If it's up to the audience applause meter, you know what these otaku boys are going to vote for.

(As an aside, a friend of mine warned me not to crossplay at a U.S. for-profit convention because the judges were the chairman's buddies, and they want to see real girls on stage. They would get really upset with a crossplayer, and the better the illusion, the angrier then would get. I figure this meant that they were judging the girl, not the costume. But that's a topic for another thread.)

So if our Kaijugal Dawn wants to voluntarily prevent CNA from descending to such depths of cosplay depravity, let's support her. Personally, I wouldn't volunteer to help a for-profit convention (for various reasons), but she's doing it so that those young cosplayers will have a positive experience and won't get discouraged from cosplaying at the fan-run conventions. I wish I had that much energy and stamina left.

This is why I regret the Con No Baka experience so much. We had the chance to create a new costuming contest in Toronto fandom. We could have gone back to the 1970s and done informal judging and handed out ribbons in the hallways. But when I tried, I had only 3 pieces of ribbon to hand out, and it turns out they were from the same roll used to peace-bond the weaponry!

Derwin.

(By the way, I'm not opposed to girls wearing swimsuits and bunny ears. Far from it.)

Kaijugal
12-06-2005, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Anime Dave
I'm also sure that there are some (not myself) who probably now feel that by shrilling so much over this, that Dawn has 'Sold out to the 500 lbs. gorilla that want's to be the only kid on the block.'


I'll be happy to address these points.

1) The definition of "Shrilling" is defined as "screaming". Nice. I do not percieve crossposting information that might be of benefit to my fandom to be "screaming" nor a sign that I have "sold out." If Anime North offered free admissions to everyone who had a tatoo on thier butt, or Toronto Trek offered addmissions to everyone who last didn't get in to see Patrick Stewart at Hobbystar because of his heart attack, I'd be crossposting that just as readily.

2) As for having "Sold Out", anyone who thinks that either doesn't know the meaning of the phrase, (which means they are mistaken), doesn't know me, or the history of how and why I got involved with the SFX Masquerade, (which means their opinion is uninformed), or has a hate-hard-on for either Hobbystar, me, or both, (in which case hey have issues that they clearly need to work out themselves).

The definition of "Sold Out" : Selling out is a common slang phrase. Broadly speaking, it refers to (1) the compromising of one's integrity in exchange for money or other personal gain. (2)It is commonly associated with attempts to increase mass appeal or acceptability to mainstream society. A person who does this is labelled a sellout.

Let's investigate this shall we?

1) "Comprimising of one's integrity" (integrity= : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values )

I took on the Masquerade at Hobbystar for 3 reasons:

1) My friend Barb Schofield and her husband had run the show for many years but were unable to continue doing so for several very sad personal reason which I am not going to disclose here. She asked if I would be interested in taking on the role of masquerade director. Initially I declined.
2) I was encouraged again to take the position this time by another friend, (Gord Rose). I reluctantly decided to consider it.
3) Seeing that anyone else who would end up running the SFX masquearde would devolve it into a Cosplay Idol format, (where the participants would be ridiculed and mocked by the judges, and ultimately the girl with the shortest hemline and biggest boobs, or maybe the guy in the storebought predator mask would be the winner), I agreed to do the job. Ultimately even though I was already overloaded with work on other concoms, I felt that I wanted to garuntee one more fair and fun event for my fandom rather than loose that opportunity for us. As well Hobbystar was willing to further implement some of the ideas and techniques used at other local masquerdes, they were open to changes that would be positive for this community. They PLAYED BALL. I felt that there was finally opportunity to make positive changes for everyone involved.

I do not bust my ass making the arrangements for the masq, organizing the staff, and this year staying awake 52 hours in a row to make the show work because I have "SOLD OUT". I do it because I want a good event for Masquerader's/cosplayers. As well by accusing me of such nonsense you are not only just insulting me BUT ALL THE PEOPLE WHO VOLUNTEER THEIR TIME TO MAKE THAT MASQUERADE THE EVENT IT IS, many of which are members of this very forum.

I'm not sure how you feel I'm "sacrificing my integrity"
If volunteering time and expending all that effort to make sure events are fun and fair for the cosplay/costuming community which I support isn't , "firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values" (THE VERY DEFINITION OF INTEGRITY), I'm not sure what is. :eeek:

And as for the second part of the definition of Selling Out. "It is commonly associated with attempts to increase mass appeal or acceptability to mainstream society", getting myself associated with Hobbystar in people's minds isn't exactly winning me any popularity contests is it?

Furthermore, and this is the BIGGIE,

If I'm such a "Sell Out" why do I bust my ass to run so much costume programming at EVERY OTHER MAJOR LOCAL CON? EVERY ONE DAVE. I cross promote them whenever possible and I do my best to help people get involved in the events if they want to be involved.

This Sell Out talk is all Bullshit and you know it.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Dave
This is probably why there is so much apparent hostility by Aaron and others against Hobbystar and Dawn.


Oh gee , thanks for the news flash. Aaron was so nice and polite and apologetic in his emails to me. It's nice to know how he really feels, so when he's being nice to my face I'll know it's fake. As for these mysterious, unnamed "others", they're welcome to tell me this b.s. to my face any time.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Anime Dave
Personally, I think that Dawn may have been a little too enthusiastic in promoting this - especially when she posted one reply in response in a larger all-red font. This is one reason why I feel that some people may now feel that she has 'sold out' to Hobbystar.



As for you thinking I "may have been a little too enthusiastic in promoting this", Why? Please explain to me what exactly you think the problem is? Damn man, we NEED more enthusiatic people involved in the community, and less whiners. :P This was a nice offer for people to take advantage of. It didn't take anything away from anybody, (except Hobbystar lots a couple of bucks), I intended to make sure that anyone who would want to take advantage would have the information neccessary to do so.


Just F.Y. I.

After it was brought to MY attention by someone on the forums, I was asked repeatedly if it was true. (It being the Hobbystar offer). I bothered to email the powers that be and confirm it just in case it was a fake offer because I'd hate to see some poor kids show up to DTac only to find out they couldn't get in. Also I wondered if it was just some random person screwing with Aaron's mind.

When I confirmed it WAS legitimate I cross posted it on some forums that I figured people who had attended Con No Baka would read hoping that no one would be left out. I ALSO posted the "yes all passes will be accepted" message in response to the inital post about the offer (THE ORIGINAL POST WAS NOT BY ME), just to clear up any confusion on both Aaron's board and at this one.

I WRITE IN BIG RED FONT WHEN I GET TIRED OF ANSWERING THE SAME QUESTIONS PMed OR POSTED TO ME OVER AND OVER. Sometimes people only read stuff written this high. Mystery Solved.

For future reference , Red Does not = OMGHOBBYSTARISMYGOD111.


Honestly, -_-" that's a really lame intimation on your part.

P.S. I didnt' get Aaron's email until Sunday, and I answered it immediately at 7 - something in the morning before I left to go downtown for the Ad Astra Meeting.

YES THAT'S RIGHT, I'm such a "sell out", that I missed all but the last hour of DTAC because I was at the Ad Astra meeting working on the costuming programming for that con. :P

And considering how I'm getting lambasted is it any wonder that no one from Hobbystar would bother to respond to his emails? I not only cleared up the questions from the post on his forum out of courtesy, but also replied to his email as soon as I got it, AND I'M THE ONLY ONE who replied, and look how it's getting me treated! :P

Why bother? :P
__________________

stillvisions
12-06-2005, 01:29 PM
Dave:

I think the relationship with many re: Hobbystar is a love-hate one. For the rest it's a hate-hate one, but that's another matter.

They put on a show. Granted, I think they generally are a rip-off, but I'm also pretty much uninterested in what they offer as a show since I'm not big on guests and pretty much only guests. Other peoples' mileage may vary however.

Even with my general distaste for their general business tactics (that's a whole other rant) I still help out with their masq. Why? Because people want a masquerade, and to keep the bottom line of CNA from deciding to adopt CnB's "make your own cosplay fun" debacle it needs people actively willing to help out and keep CN honest as to what they're offering. People like Dawn step in not because there's some unholy gain to be made, but because they want to make sure other cons don't decide on handing out hunks of ribbon fabric as prizes and decide that fans will take whatever they're dished out.

Trust me: Dawn has gone to war with CN from time to time over what they wanted to do with (or not do with) the masq, so by no means is there unconditional love on her part...

Most of the people who work on the masq plug the masqs because we want to see them successful. Granted, a successful con allows a successful masq to happen, but we generally leave that for other people. In the case of CNB, it was evident to many people watching that this was not going to be successful at either. Like CNA, CNB was making promises before they knew whether or not they could keep them. On the other hand, CNA has done a better job at actually making sure that when the con started, they actually had some semblance of what they promised. Not always perfect, mind you, but better. By January, I'd already taken a look at what programming CNB was advertising and wondering where exactly they were planning to get it all from, and having heard tales of begging for programming a month before the con, I was right. Dawn and others just had the good sense to keep away from this lest the blame for the con be pinned on them for taking part in the debacle.

Instead, now you and Aaron are insinuating that by not taking part in the fiasco, that they were somehow to blame. Bravo. Dawn and others were basically shut out of the process and as such did their best to ask very public questions regarding the viability of the event to hopefully keep the con honest. Sadly, it didn't work.

A lot of people have done a lot of work to make sure masquerades are good shows both for the audience and the costumers, and if trying to do that is selling out, well, I'm a sell-out too.

(Oh, and I'll second Derwin's non-opposition to girls in swimsuits and bunny ears... :) )

Another Dream
12-06-2005, 02:15 PM
Can't wait for Anime North, that's all I've got to say now that I've calmed down.
Phew, I still have nightmares

Otaking97
12-06-2005, 05:20 PM
I don't understand everyones beef with Hobbystar. Sure I've had some issues with them in the past. But NOTHING like CnB. Either way we all live and learn and move on.

I agree that every con needs more help with cosplay related events. Why do you think I ran the 'Extra Masqurade' at CNA05 after finding out that the regular one was capped? For my personal gain? Nope. Even though I ran an event 'small one' I didn't get any type of refund. I had to pay like everyone else. It's for the fans, the attendee's, the cameramen, the kids, etc, etc.

Was Hobbystar hard to deal with about it? Nope. Dawn gave me the greenlight a day or two later after it was proposed. And I applaude her effort.

shiro_hikaru
12-06-2005, 06:34 PM
People are saying they won't attend another CnB
On the Contrary, as I mentioned prior (or in another forum, I can't remember), I had a good time at Con no Baka, I personally would love to go to CnB: Return from the Grave, but I'm sure that anyone that knows of the reputation or what's been going these past three weeks (and more), are very unlikely to participate as a dealer/volunteer/panelist/guest/etc..

As for the statement towards the dealers and artists, it's unethical to specifically single out a corporation the way he did, it publically slanders the corporation's name creating issues for the corporation such as problems with future cons, the statement simply states what the corporation did but not the terms the corporation was abiding too.

It's one thing to bring up the term and conditions and the consequences with not abiding to them, but it's quite another issue to what Aaron did in the statement. Not only does he create a bias on the said corporation but he also compromises the integrity of his statement. If he had posted what he did about those said corporation on another page more suited to his topic (ie. I hate Another dream/Dragonstar forum), his integrity is clear; and viewed upon professional since he would not be speaking as a respresentative of HIS BUSINESS.

Again from a congoer perspective, the con was fun, but as regards to being a dealer, I just have too many issues which I'm sure other dealers will agree with in terms of how the con and contract was treated and how STILL issues are arising because of Aaron. And for those said reasons I would not work with a con like Con no Baka, again.

Amy the Yu
12-06-2005, 07:02 PM
*flexes fingers* Alright, time for me to have my say, just because everyone else has, and it seems to be the thing to do.
None of us have been posting cause "it seems to be the thing to do". If you take a close look at those who have been posting regularily, most of us were Dealers and Artists. Others were staff and guests. Only those who were greatly affected by the course of the convention and the aftereffects (ie. Artists and Dealers not getting any solid evidence of a refund even after multipule accusations which do not help)

They aren't asking us to curb our opinions, just not to get violent about it.No one here has gotten violent about anything. We're expressing our dissatisfaction and displeasure with how the entire event turned out as well as how Aaron has been going about it.

The Dealers Apology:
Aaron is saying that he will pay back the tables, when he can. Obviously the man is strapped for cash because of this, but at least he is trying to make things right. Some money back is better then nothing.
I'm sure you would defend a friend if they were being unfairly treated.

The Dealers and Artists form similar bonds since who else can understand the situation better than fellow Dealers and Artists who were put through the same ordeal (and yes it was an ordeal, we had to persue the issue a great deal for Aaron just to say that we might get a partial refund and there was no promises or any kind of timeline given as to when we can expect it).

People are saying they won't attend another CnB, but what's the point in that? If another one is announced in the makings, instead of shunning it completely, give your advice and opinions to whoever is in charge (but be civil about it at least).Most people who said they would not attend another one were:

1) not even at CnB, and decided to jump in afterwards to say "oh, lucky me for not going. It would have been a waste if I went."

2)Security (who were volunteers), volunteers, guests or panelists who attended because they wanted to help out only to be met with multipule difficulties and mass amounts of problems (security was sent out to deliver the bad news and to take most of crap dished out by unhappy attendees, guests were provided with hotel rooms which they were later kicked out of and some were not notified of all that was expected of them, and panelists who were not notified of schedule changes on Friday and later not compensated as they had expected)

3)artists/dealers who paid a LOT to rent out tables, were lied to even before the convention as to how many people would be present (being off by a few dozen or even hundred wouldn't be terrible, but to be told that there would be 2000 and only 500 showed is a bit much for anyone) and after which, we were blamed further for problems resulting from the Gift Certificates. Then when he finally agreed to give us partial refunds, a timeline is usually expected (ie. within the next 3 months), but he just says "you'll get it eventually". That's not acceptable after all the trouble he put us through. Eventually can be anything from a week to several years.

That being said, just like Shiro Hikaru stated, a lot of us who went would go again. However, as many of us had gone as dealers/panelists this time to be met with so many problems, we wouldn't attend under the same status and would go just as regular attendees or under circumstances that would guarentee improvement from what we experienced this time.

If you want to make it better, offer your help as a volunteer (but don't bail without reason or notice).HAH! Did you miss the multiple times that it was mentioned here (and on the CnB forums) that many people tried to contact CnB ahead of time to volunteer and were either completely ignored or declined. If they wanted volunteers, they sure messed that up.

Vessa-Sushi
12-06-2005, 07:16 PM
Oh, I know about the volunteers not getting responses back. I was one of them (emailed them long, long time ago about security, only to get an email the week of con saying they needed 41 or so more security or some such.). I was cheesed about it then, and I'm still a bit ticked about it now, but I let it slide on a whole. I figured it was their fault for not getting back to people about volunteers, and they would suffer.

Blurg....there was more, but I'm a tad tired to figure out what it was.

Oh yes...I would really, really like someone (and I really mean this, not being sarcastic or anything) to explain to me -how- Aaron is blaming stuff on Hobbystar and Dawn. I didn't get the impression he blamed anything on them, only stating that they (Con no Baka folk) didn't know if the announcement about the badges being honoured at DTAC was true or just something floating around. You can pm me about this or post it here, doesn't matter. I just want to be clear on how it comes off as being a blame game.

And now, I'll shush.

~Vessa

shiro_hikaru
12-06-2005, 08:46 PM
Just so they're a little positive-ness on this forum, I think Dawn did a phenomenal job regardless of Con No Baka and Hobbystar as to getting the information out whether it be crossposting on the Canada Cosplay and CNAnime Forums or by word of mouth.

At, DTAC, there were little to no people that I had talked to that didn't know or at least hear of the free admission. The only problem I found with DTAC was that because Con No Baka was so poorly organized, con badges weren't the same, and even to say some where just dollar store stickers used for office filing. With that inconsistency, the people at the door from Hobbystar refused a few badges, though that wasn't really their problem.

Kudos to you Dawn!!!

Kaijugal
12-06-2005, 10:15 PM
:) Thanks to all of you who appricate what I do.


It means alot to me, and knowing that people are having a good time in the hobby,and it makes the hard work worth while. I'm sure that the others that help me do what I do, (because I DEFINATELY don't do it alone!), feel the same way.


It's really my sincerest hope that we can continue to have many great and enjoyable costuming events and that we can continue to be one hell of a kickass costuming community.

Cheers all ! :jjacks:

Brita_Lee
12-06-2005, 11:22 PM
It makes me really sad that so many people have to have their feelings hurt over a convention thats supposed to bring us joy. I hope everyone can heal after this blows over. If anything, this will be a learning experience for many. Those who run cons, those who attend cons, warning signs and the like. I'm fortunate that I left the con on ahappy note, but for many, it continues to sting. Not just from the con, but from issues surrounding it and new issues after the fact.

I hope this doesn't give people a bad taste in their mouth about new cons. This one just happened to go badly. Every con has a beggining, and starts small. They're supposed to start small. Hopefully that much has been learned. New cons can be quaint and cozy, then they will grow as the years go by. I know GCAF was a wonderful experience for me.

So, again, I hope everyone can walk away with something new, but also heal the wounds on your hearts. I'd hate to see eternal frowns on the faces of cosplayers who were just out to have a good time.

Eleryth
12-07-2005, 12:28 AM
This has very little to do with CnB since I wasn't there, but I felt the need to say it.

IMHO, it seems that although the con went bad, most people are not super upset and took it well because they expected something to happen. I hope that from this situation general congoers learn what it takes to really run a great convention, and that things can go wrong all the time, but that most cons have enough willing and hardworking staff to cover it with minimal issues at the convetion.

So, next time something goes wrong at a con you expect to be great and has a good rep, like Anime North or TT [such as a power outage, or slight schedule changes, or the masq starting a little late], just pause for a moment and think about how much work it takes, how much is actually going right, and how many people they are coodinating for, and thank your lucky stars they have what it takes.

Brita_Lee
12-07-2005, 11:17 AM
This has very little to do with CnB since I wasn't there, but I felt the need to say it.

IMHO, it seems that although the con went bad, most people are not super upset and took it well because they expected something to happen. I hope that from this situation general congoers learn what it takes to really run a great convention, and that things can go wrong all the time, but that most cons have enough willing and hardworking staff to cover it with minimal issues at the convetion.

So, next time something goes wrong at a con you expect to be great and has a good rep, like Anime North or TT [such as a power outage, or slight schedule changes, or the masq starting a little late], just pause for a moment and think about how much work it takes, how much is actually going right, and how many people they are coodinating for, and thank your lucky stars they have what it takes.

I'll second all that! I'm positive that anyone who has heard of CNB may appreciate from here on out that problems happen and its amazing how well a great staff can handle them.