Lolita Rules, Etiquette, Etc.

[Fiona LeFae]

Okay, I am completely unaware of what proper Lolita rules and etiquette are. I am not a full-blown Lolita, nor am I necessarily looking to be one, but I would like to know more about this subject. I didn't know there were Lolita rules and etiquette. I'm very in the dark about the subject, but if anyone could tell me more about it or even direct me to a good website, I'd be extremely grateful.

Love,
Fiona LeFae

[DeathOfSoul]

Well, there's this entry on LJ on some manners ^^:
http://community.livejournal.com/egl/2123015.html

[Dante_realremix]

I wouldn't go around trying to make too many rules for this stuff, as other than standard goth manners and intelligence, it's more about NOT following anyone's rules other than your own.

[AZNPRDE420666]

I've always found that "proper" lolita rules are somewhat sexist. (like the article on how fifties housewives should act.)

1. Always attend the parties as a couple. This is your chance to find the handsome prince.

Generally, be polite and considerate of others like in real life.

[penny_dreadful]

I'm curious as to how one attends a party as a couple in an effort to find a handsome prince. I'm also curious as to how one walks with her toes together at all times and avoids tripping over her own feet or looking like a total moron.

I would like to point out that I rarely see girls in lolita outfits smiling in pictures. In Victorian portraits people rarely smiled, certainly never showing teeth, and the dolls little girls played with were the same. I would also like to point out that people refined enough to cultivate a true appreciation for ballet, opera, fine art and classical music generally make good spelling and grammar a priority as well.

you are a true lolita by giving a gift that could become a TPO ( I don't know what that means. just says TPO)

Is it really a good idea to talk about things when you don't even know what they mean?

I don't mean to sound snobbish, I won't pretend I'm refined and elegant because I'm not, but a lot of this seems to amount to an image people want to create for themselves, and I have to say there was more than one bit in there that sounded a bit silly. Many lolitas I have met are polite and sweet. Some of them walk around with lemon-pucker faces and major attitude problems. As AZNPRDE420666 said, being polite and considerate is always in good taste.

--Penny

[Tsubame]

lolita's rules are really really strict, you must be inocent so you can't show your shoulders, wear too short skirts,.... things like that

I've a Baby, the Stars Shine Bright mind so I think about lolitas in the BTSSB style but there are some other brands you can look about to know more about how is lolita fashion^^

penny_dreadful, the LJ entry DeathOfSoul has put is only a translation of a Gothic & Lolita Bible article, the people who translate it doesn't have to know all the concepts

[Koryuu]

Well, there's this entry on LJ on some manners ^^:
http://community.livejournal.com/egl/2123015.html

Holy mother of crap! It's like you have to completely drain yourself of any personality or individuality to become some sort of living marionette. Do people really do this to themselves?

[Squee Bunny]

Ha! I think that nobody does all of the rules on a daily basis. I honestly think the "manners" thing is warped. Kind of like a cruel joke in my opinion. Something to strive for but not really ever wanting to achieve. I hardly doubt that the majority of Japanese women dressing in the lolita fashion do all these rules.

Politeness is the only thing anyone ever really worries about.

Also, if there were set rules, all the punk lolis would break them. ;)

[penny_dreadful]

Also, if there were set rules, all the punk lolis would break them. ;)

True, true.

--PD

[DeathOfSoul]

Holy mother of crap! It's like you have to completely drain yourself of any personality or individuality to become some sort of living marionette. Do people really do this to themselves?

That's what I thought... that's why I would never be a full-down lolita (if you go by how you're "suppose" to act).
and yeah... some people actually do it all ^^;; Follow these so called "rules" and live very strict lives.

[Michilo]

Wow, very intresting article. And I agree, it's something you can strive for, but never really want to acheive. It is kind of like the 1950s housewife atricles-I agree-a little offensive, so I suppose not to be taken so seriously.

[ArchFaith]

Hahaha! Beer is a peasants' drink? Nice wording.

Though anyone who puts on a lolita dress can act however they want, I generally tend to be a little more polite when I wear my lolita dress. It's a subconcious thing...when I was at Otakon this year, I said good morning to an old man as he stepped into the elevator...normally I wouldn't say hello to a stranger.

Also, I was in the elevator in my hotel when a "normal" couple and their two little girls stepped in. I guess my lolita style got the better of them, because the dad told the girls to mind their manners and let me through first ^_^ Perhaps it's the lace and ribbons!

[Raouken]

lol, I once read a livejournal lolita dramallama explosion where this girl said that lolita's had to follow all these rules, and some more, like not talking or not going into the sun or only drinking tea..or else make up another name for their style because they brought shame upon the real lolita..

again lol@elitists XD It's just so silly, being an elitist over something like..clothes. I agree I'm normally politer when I'm in lolita, I walk more elegant and stuff but that's just a costume thing, not because some magazine says you have to, you know? Wasn't lolita 'invented' to escape from the strict Japanese rules of how you have to act and live and look? Funny that they make the same rules again..

[penny_dreadful]

Again, I'm no expert, but I figured since lolita fashions were derived pretty directly from fashions of the Victorian era, give or take a few decades, the strict social mores and rules of etiquette fit right in with it. Of course, the Victorians had some of the most messed-up subcultures you could think of, precisely because people felt the need to escape the pressures of social correctness. Go figure.

--Penny

[aoisakura]

On goth loli bible there are ways a gothic and a lolita should spend their day, so I would guess people DO take it seriously, however silly it sounds to us ^^;

And they are advised to listen to classical music and practise the violin and have teaparties and learn how to make cakes and such....

Lolita is a subculture, not just a cosplay or way to dress. Its like there are ways of life etc for other subcultures same for lolita. For people who claim to live as a lolita follow those rules so I wouldn't say its stupid for something thats just a way of dress because it isn't for them, the way of dress comes with the way of life

And there are most of us esp overseas who just like the dress and wear it (like me XD) but yeah very strict rules exist for lolitas wishing to live the lolita way

[Kiss]

For me manners are key. I think it is disgusting to see a Loli acting rude, loud, and inmature. I was at a party a week or so ago and there was a girl dressed in Loli but she was acting very loud and disrespectful I almost wanted to leave the party. I dont mean that everyone is to follow the Gothic & Lolita Bible article to the dot but at least be nice and polite. I think its good to be yourself but to be respectful at the same time.

[penny_dreadful]

Loud, obnoxious, immature people irk me anyways, but it does seem especially incongruous when you're dressed in loli. Sadly, I suppose since the look is becoming trendier people will inevitably pick up the style without the substance-- they'll wear the clothes without any understanding of the subculture it's come from, just because they like the look.

I may have gotten into it because of the look more than anything else, but at least I've taken the time to do a little research; it doesn't hurt that there's a community of lolitas here to help guide new fans into the field. But just like with punk, hippie, mod, goth, or any other subculture that carries its own fashion (which is just about every one), there are bound to be people who don't give two craps about WHY people dress that way, they just want to look cool.

--Penny

[LightHawk]

But just like with punk, hippie, mod, goth, or any other subculture that carries its own fashion (which is just about every one), there are bound to be people who don't give two craps about WHY people dress that way, they just want to look cool.

I couldn't agree more. Therefore, I think it always helps to have a solid background knowledge of a certain sub-culture if you want to follow or cosplay that particular fashion, even if you don't follow the 'rules' religiously.

[Aisha-chan]

Additionally, many of the people who say they live this way dislike cosplay/ers. See lolitasnap.com to see what I mean.

[Tsubame]

Additionally, many of the people who say they live this way dislike cosplay/ers. See lolitasnap.com to see what I mean.
is that true???? O_o well I think I can understand that feeling but I think it's not necesarilly to hate all the people of a group @…………@ I want to say.... hate a person, but not all them! xDD I didn't know that v,v

well... I'm cosplayer in one part, but I'm trying to be lolita right now in the other, I want to say, you can be cosplayer and lolita without putting the two things together^^ that's why I haven't uploaded my picts dressed as a real lolita here.... I think the people would like them, but they are not cosplay .....^^ I haven't bought an original Baby, the Stars Sine Bright Jumper Skirt only for a cosplay^^UU

[aoisakura]

is that true???? O_o well I think I can understand that feeling but I think it's not necesarilly to hate all the people of a group @…………@ I want to say.... hate a person, but not all them! xDD I didn't know that v,v


It's like how punks and goths and such do not like people who started dressing as such because of fashion trends a few years back I guess ^^;

[Fiona LeFae]

Thanks for the information and sicussion, everybody. I appreciate it. I figured that not ever Lolita followed the rules to a T, but I wanted to be a nice little loli-wannabi and see what the lolitists do etiquette-wise. The reason I asked is because I always see people sayng a "real lolita" or not "truly lolita" and I was confused as to whether there actually was a set of Loli rules out there somewhere or everyone was just on the "true loli" bandwagon.

I guess true lolita is just like a true punk; it's not. Subcultures are tricky things.

It's nice to be an iconoclast.
Love,
Fiona LeFae
Gothling (Goth Grrl in Training)

[Hatsumi]

I just agree with the idea that gl is a sub-culture and also a fashion trend, but I just think that there are no rules about it, yeah is a look based on victorian way of style, doll-like-look and all that, but pretend something just for how you dress doesnt sounds very unique or original, its supposed that if you wear something is because you like it and reflects something of your own personality.
Agree with the polite thing, but what about a punk lolita, you have to be anarchist just because you look punk?
Also I just hate those kind of know-it-all lolitas, if you dont fit in their idea of gothic lolita, just tell you you are only a goth wanna be lolita or are just so closed up communities.
And I have friends who gl is their way of life, and they like cosplay *o*
There are no kind of rules, maybe like in the gothic lolita bible, just suggestion of "how to be a good lolita" or "Lolita decoration style" but are just a few ideas, not a "must do".

[Ophely]

I'm a lolita (punk-lolita actually) and I think those "manners" and other things of the kind are suggestions, not rules. Even 100% pure lolitas make fun of them once in a while, especially occidental lolitas who are not really bathing into this culture.
Japanese lolitas are a bit more serious though. Japanese tend to take politeness a lot more seriously than we do in general, so it's not really surprising.

[penny_dreadful]

I'm a lolita (punk-lolita actually) and I think those "manners" and other things of the kind are suggestions, not rules. Even 100% pure lolitas make fun of them once in a while, especially occidental lolitas who are not really bathing into this culture.
Japanese lolitas are a bit more serious though. Japanese tend to take politeness a lot more seriously than we do in general, so it's not really surprising.

Yes, politeness is more integrated into Japanese cultures than it is in many others, and their codes of etiquette are much more closely followed than they are in, say, the U.S. where etiquette is all but dead. It makes more sense for someone who comes from a culture where women are inherently polite and demure to adhere to a lolita lifestyle, whereas for someone who was born and raised in the States or Canada, where the majority of the people on these boards appear to be from, following the guidelines for "authentic" lolita behavior would probably require a bit of an overhaul of your regular lifestyle.

--Penny

[aoisakura]

You can see the extent of strict culture in Japan in the rule you are not supposed to cosplay just utside a con or attend in costume as this is might annoy the public. Some cons your not allowed to wear revealing costumes either that show clevage or leg unless covered by stockings...

[RosebrideBri]

A lot of people have objections to the "loli manners". Well this fashion is somewhat based off of Victorian girls and victorian dolls. Dolls are basically-well, perfect. And young Victorian girls were really expected to act this way back then. I don't think it's a crime to bring back a little etiquette, something that many girls have long since forgotten.

For some people Lolita is just a cute cosplay. For some people Lolita is just an occasional fashion. And then for some of us, such as myself, it's a subculture we indulge in. I don't find feminine manners to be sexist. I'm not your average girly-girl, but I'm modest, polite, and respectful. And that in the least is good enough for me.

If anyone knows about Geishas (of course you do :) ), you know that they had certain manners and traditions to uphold. I didn't consider those rules degrading, I considered it intriguing that these women took so much time to maintain the image of feminine beauty. I like to think that true lolitas do the same =D.

[penny_dreadful]

No one's saying it's silly to behave politely, modestly, or respectfully. Manners are important to have, and we should all take care to be more respectful of others. It is fun to have tea parties, exchange gifts, and be sweet and girly (at least it is for some people, some of the time).

Etiquette becomes sexist when women have to do it but men don't.

Now that I am reading back through the rules in the link posted earlier in the thread, there's quite a bit of it that's sensible and much of my original objections were down to faulty translations. It is indeed a good idea to observe alcohol consumption laws and avoid drinking too much, maintain good posture, cultivate a knowledge of the fine arts, and bring a hostess gift when you attend a party. While some people may think Victorian mannerisms are quite lovely, however, I find many of them outdated-- today's lady opens her own doors, pulls out her own chairs, and has a beer if she happens to like it. These things do not make her manly, they do not mean she is unsophisticated. If you do enjoy being so loli you make Emily Post look barbaric, fine, but females in the Victorian era suffered high rates of medical problems and psychological issues because they were terribly repressed, and we'd do well to remember that it's okay to let our hair down every once in a while and act like human beings instead of dolls.

--Penny

[Usachan]

To me, Lolita has always represented this two things to me:
fliar...and loveliness. Well that and structure and elegance,
but it's getting more and more seen in anime's and even live
action. (Kamikaze Girls) is a wonderful example of some very
lovely dresses seen as well as Yuuko from (Xxxholic) There
are many other one's of course, but these are my favorties
to date. My Chi costume was inspired by Lolita (see photo album)

Lolita is also timeless and classic, where beauty and elegance
can be applied, but everyone can appreciate it's divine taste
too. I could see the Western Society picking up on this as a
style or fashion trend, however it would cost more money to
buy as it is to wear for whatever occasion to be wearing too.

Then again, Lolita should be a thing for all generations to be
exploring or experimenting and discovering this marvelous style.

[Fiona LeFae]

...I don't want to start a fight! I just wanted to know if something like a Loli Grail existed! I love everyone and all the lolitas!

Sorry to upset anyone.
Love,
Fifi LeFae

[penny_dreadful]

...I don't want to start a fight! I just wanted to know if something like a Loli Grail existed! I love everyone and all the lolitas!

Sorry to upset anyone.
Love,
Fifi LeFae

You're not starting a fight, you've started a discussion. Personally I'm not upset, and I hope no one else is. I actually think it's very engaging to consider the different sides of the issue-- whether there are rules or aren't, whether they should be followed or used more as guidelines, and how much the standards fit into modern-day lifestyles. Don't worry, it's not an out-and-out flame war-- that would be very un-loli, wouldn't it?

--PD

[Usachan]

I agree...I don't sense a fight here either, I was just making a point
and prespective of how I view and precieve Lolita to be. So no to
worry, you made some strong points in your board and I liked it so
I had to put my own two cents, so no worries. It's all good to me.

[Ophely]

Nobody's starting a fight. We're all expressing our opinions, that's all.

I agree very much about adding some politeness in your everyday life, we tend to forget how to behave with humans. Next time you go to a restaurant, take a good look at the waitress. She might be a single mom who has two jobs to pay bills, and maybe she doesn't feel like being there because her child is sick in bed. Is it so hard to say "please" and "thanks" to her? It sounds sad but it happens, and some consideration doesn't cost us that much.

So without going too extreme and aiming for perfection (which is impossible to obtain anyway, we're humans), we can still have a good attitude. As a matter of fact, we should. Being polite looks a lot more civilised.

[ArchFaith]

I totally agree with the whole politeness thing!!

The funny thing is, I AM a waitress (until tomorrow night, anyway, when I tranform back into a college student). Until I worked in a restaurant, I had no idea how stressful being a service worker was...responding to complaints, bringing people napkins and extra silverware, looking around for a manager, and being blamed if something is wrong with the food. Every time I go anywhere, from a store to a fast food place to a train station, I make sure to be more polite to the people who work there.

[penny_dreadful]

Yes, ArchFaith, nothing makes you be nice to service people faster than doing that work yourself. I bussed tables for a (very) short time, and worked at a Christmas store around Christmas, so I also know the agony of dealing with people. They are rude, selfish, impatient, devious, messy, and cruel. However, every now and then you get someone who takes time out to smile and thank you, compliment something about you, or try to make your day a little better. That can make it all worth it. And that's what we should all do-- not just as lolis, but as people in general: really make an effort to be pleasant and remember that we're not the only ones with problems.

--Penny

[insomniel]

I agree with the idea that there are no "rules" for a fashion such as EGL, just as there are no real rules to any fashion, but there are guidelines on how to be a good (or better) lolita. If you have any pride in this expensive fashion/lifestyle, then you should follow some of the rules, at least some of the time. There is a lot of pride and self-respect that goes into Elegant Gothic Lolita that isn't found in other fetishy aspects of Lolita. It's a classy, not trashy fashion, not usually. That's what makes EGL so popular, it has a high and unique standard and it makes you feel good about yourself if you can meet it.

I assume that fellow lolitas would appreciate it if you followed the basic rules of etiquette, make yourself look presentable and generally not act like an elitist jerk, to not reflect badly on others. I'm no supermodel of EGL fashion, I think following all of those Victorian manners is kinda silly in the 21st century, but I enjoy getting into the ways of lolita because I like pretending I'm a princess for a little while.

[TR Rose]

I totally agree with the whole politeness thing!!

The funny thing is, I AM a waitress (until tomorrow night, anyway, when I tranform back into a college student). Until I worked in a restaurant, I had no idea how stressful being a service worker was...responding to complaints, bringing people napkins and extra silverware, looking around for a manager, and being blamed if something is wrong with the food. Every time I go anywhere, from a store to a fast food place to a train station, I make sure to be more polite to the people who work there.
Amen to that. I personally think that every teenager should work as a clerk in a store and in food service for at least a month as part of a life requirement. You suddenly realize how much stress is involved in both these kinds of jobs. It's a great study in politeness for everyday life.

Whether or not it's part of a subculture, I think everyone should treat people (no matter which side of the table/counter they're on) as human beings.

[aoisakura]

Funny enough, the most rudest people I have met (I used be a waitress for about 7 months then also a shop assistant in a pharmacy for about a year and a bit now aswell) are middle aged/older women who really should know better. They really do treat people like dirt the way the talk to people serving them... I have never met any teenagers nearly as rude as those sort of adult women.

[happyusagi]

I believe, besides walking the way they said, these rules are fine. Perhaps alittle strict, but it's always nice to be polite (but you don't ahve to be that polite).

[Fiona LeFae]

I'm glad I haven't started a fight...I pretty sure this is the first message I've posted that has had more than one page of replies!
I think it's a nice ideal to have a sort of "tea party etiquette" thing, though, since it would be so lovely to watch a bunch of polite litte Victorian girls intereacting, like a live doll tea party!

Love,
Fifi LeFae

[Scrapped Neko]

I'm not a hard-core lolita by any means, more like an outsider looking in, but I thought that list of rules was rather sweet. I love the fact that they have such high emphasis on manners. In this day and age it seems as though etiquette and common courtesy are pretty much dead, and rudeness is the expected norm. It seems like people don't even remember how to respond to good manners, and those that do are thought of as dorks.

I attended a wedding recently at which the bride and groom didn't speak to me once. I don't think I saw the bride talking to many of her guests, save her best friends. That struck me as pretty rude. I always thought that it was just common practice (not to mention proper etiquette) that the bride and groom make their way around the reception at least once to properly greet and thank all their guests...after all we were all there because of them. I wish parts of that list were common practice with everyone, not just lolitas.

Oh and I thought the 'how to walk' part was pretty funny. Good luck to them on the whole walking with both knees together thing. hehe

[Cossette_Sena15]

What I think is funny about the artist part of the rules is I liked those things (and still do) and then I saw lolitas whose style I instantly fell in love with, now I've learned more about lolitas and I see the two things coming together. but I don't think you should restrict yourself to the arts they list, some of the most powerful music would probably have horrified anyone from before 1950. *sorry if this makes no sense I'm a little tired and my thoughts my not make sense*

[BayushiKachiko]

Man...and here I am liking all those "Loli" things without being a Loli O_o. I was brought up to appreciate classical music, art, literature, philosophy, opera, etc.

Having spoken to a few Loli's, and I guess these would be the 'pretenders' is that many don't have any kind of general interest in those things, which I'm guessing according to some rule somewhere, a good Loli should. I mentioned Wagner to one and she looked at me like I had a third arm.

Is this insincerity of interest considered insulting to the culture? From what I have read here, it is. Or at least it should be. Oo

[Samurai_Yuna]

I think as long as you're not flashing people or giving them the finger you are doing good. Just treat people with respect, I think that's the main point. Treat someone as you would like to be treated.

[mrskalal]

The walking isn't as hard as it looks. Every other Japanese girl walks that way. I'm one of those people who tends to subconsciously copy their environment. Put me in a room with a bunch of Japanese, British, Canadians...whatever...and after an hour I'll be (not on purpose) talking with a very bad accent. And I've caught myself walking with my toes and knees together without meaning to before, as well. Basically, it's just being pigeon-toed. That's not too hard, is it?

This actually sounds pretty much like me, except I'm not a loli. What's really sad is that my 3-year-old daughter is often times more polite than adults! Manners really are lacking in our society.

[EverEvolvingGrl]

I think this is an issue of culture. I mean, I've heard or rather read from translations that if you do not behave in those strict loli ways you are.... for lack of a better word... excommunicated from being a loli, in Japan. But when I read the comments on here its all "they have no personality" "this is like being a perfect housewife". In the west women are much more..... how to say.... tuff. We don't take crap and we curse and smoke and have bad manners (this is what I've noticed and what I've heard from ranting old Japanese women). Japanese girls in general don't act like we do, quieter, more traditional manners still ingrained in their society. So you take the softer actions of a japanese girl and then put the strict rules of a loli together... and it blows our minds!
We say, "No way! As long as I'm not flashing people and giving the finger I'm doing pretty good" But that is part to our western mind-set, which is completely different from the japanese mind set for women......
I'm a feminist so I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from. I've studied gender roles in Japan with emphasis on modern culture and the workplace. I really only know a handful of US girls who could pull off the loli without..... well.... exploding.
Reading it again, its almost natural to do those things. Its like seeing someone in a beautiful Yves St Lauren dress behaving badly, cursing, drinking, smoking...... Its horrible! To be dressed up so beautifully and behave so ugly. The loli is an extension of this... And I think this is also extended to the Dandy (the male equivalent to the loli) or the dandy might have his own rules.
This reminds me of being punk, even tho the rules are not written down, they are just as strict. Certain dress, certain music, certain actions, certain views even! To be punk but lets say love musicals and Britney Spears and agree with the goverment and such.... well it would get you beaten up in some circles for being a poseur.....

[AZNPRDE420666]

Lol there are lolis in japan (omg) that drink and smoke.

its a fashion.

If I wore abercrombie do I have to act like a mall girl and say things like "omg liek I love that top!!"
Don't get me wrong. I'm usually a quiet and well mannered girl (i'm painfully shy and don't really speak unless spoken to) but I believe you have to draw a line between a fashion and a lifestyle. You want to follow the lolita lifestyle while dressing up? Go right ahead. But don't impede on the rest of us that don't exactly get up at five to dress up and have tea parties, practice the violin, etc.

[xzombiex]

I'm no expert on loli etiquette, but I have a theory... Because lolitas tend to wear fashion influenced or directly from Elizabethan/Victorian etc times, I guess they would be expected to have the same values as someone from that time. Whether they do or not, it's probably best to just respect what others like (or don't like), and treat them with the respect you would want.

[xzombiex]

Well, there's this entry on LJ on some manners ^^:
http://community.livejournal.com/egl/2123015.html
It appears rather restrictive, but it's highly fascinating! It's like reading etiquette books from the fifties - you probably wouldn't want to follow the rules in them, but you'll read them anyway...

[Sarcasm-hime]

I just wish more so-called 'lifestyle' lolis would take their own advice and behave politely and elegantly. I've seen so much cattiness and rudeness from the loli community, and it's totally hypocritical. If they truly espoused the loli guidelines for behaviour, they would just politely acknowledge that cosplayers or 'loli-posers' have no bearing on what they do, and go on with their lives, instead of haranguing people and calling them nasty names.

[penny_dreadful]

I just wish more so-called 'lifestyle' lolis would take their own advice and behave politely and elegantly. I've seen so much cattiness and rudeness from the loli community, and it's totally hypocritical. If they truly espoused the loli guidelines for behaviour, they would just politely acknowledge that cosplayers or 'loli-posers' have no bearing on what they do, and go on with their lives, instead of haranguing people and calling them nasty names.

I wholeheartedly agree!

--PD

[ArchFaith]

Hehe yeah...the lolitists are so vicious it made me think twice before posting pictures of my (unfinished) outfit up. I don't have make-up on, my hair isn't done, and I'm not wearing full loli regalia, even though it's only a test shot...I know it will be ripped apart by those people. For real...as if none of us have ever made any mistakes...

[EmilyTheBrave]

-Eye sight-
~ keep your eye site straight forward. keep looking far away then your posture will get better also


if you watch kana's interview her eyes were all over the place lol :P

[kuko-chan]

Wow, I wasn't aware that wearing loli outfits involved such a complicated lifestyle. I definately agree that North Americans would have a harder time following the same rules that Japanese women follow everyday as a daily routine. Funny thing is, there are so many North Americans who claim they know how to be lolis better than the Japanese do, which I find rather insulting.

To me, the reason I see loli as cosplay is because even in Japan, girls don't wear it everyday, they wear it just on the weekends and sometimes, not even the whole weekend, just Sunday. It's a special things for some girls because most of the time, they're wearing school uniforms. That's like women here wearing club wear on a night out with friends. It's not stuff they'd wear on a daily basis. And in my opinion, if I don't normally wear lolita outfits, it becomes just a costume. It's the same way a teenybopper might wear a gothic dress for Halloween because she's pretending to be something she's not. I only wear lolita outfits to conventions. I simply can't wear them on a daily basis like some people.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that clothing doesn't dictate lifestyle. Just because I wear a plaid skirt once a week doesn't mean I'm anti-establishment and want anarchy. Just because I wear lolita dresses every now and then doesn't mean I'm a polite little doll who drinks tea all the time.

[Misa-chan]

I don't think it's so much a "tough" attitude in American women, I think many Americans in general are pretty lacking in the manner department though. The things mentioned in that rule list are just how you should behave towards people every day, and lolita manners are just a step up from that by incorperating the history behind the fashion. (such as the "cute innocent girl" factor and tea party etiquette, etc.)

I don't think you can account for every lolita in Japan, some of them probably do wear it every day. Just like some people wear punk or goth or whatever style they're into every day. And I don't doubt that there are American lolitas that look better than some Japanese lolitas. (they're not the high priestesses of the fashion, it may have started in Japan but it's the spirit that counts!!) But at the same time, there could be Japanese lolitas that look better than American lolitas, and French lolitas that don't look as good as Alaskan lolitas and so forth. Plus this "I'm better than you" thing is silly, and it's all a matter of opinion, nothing to get worked up about.

About the rules: Every fashion has rules that are not necessarily always written down. Would you wear a frilly pink tutu to a hardcore goth gathering? I think that there are many Lolita rules that are documented because it is very misunderstood and misinterpreted, (such as people calling it "draining of personality", and the book of the same name doesn't help either...) there's nothing wrong with sticking up for yourself.

[CienDragon]

To me, the reason I see loli as cosplay is because even in Japan, girls don't wear it everyday, they wear it just on the weekends and sometimes, not even the whole weekend, just Sunday. It's a special things for some girls because most of the time, they're wearing school uniforms.

But by that logic, wouldn't wearing jeans and a t-shirt be cosplay too? I mean if you're saying that it is cosplay because they only wear it on the weekends. If they have to wear a school uniform most of the time, and then wear jeans and a t-shirt or some other non-school uniform outfit on the weekend I don't think you'd call if cosplay.

[Sarcasm-hime]

I think people need to stop obsessing over classifications and just go back to sewing and wearing nice costumes/outfits/whatever. :P

[Talentlessmoo]

I agree with the idea that there are no "rules" for a fashion such as EGL, just as there are no real rules to any fashion, but there are guidelines on how to be a good (or better) lolita. If you have any pride in this expensive fashion/lifestyle, then you should follow some of the rules, at least some of the time.
No, there's rules, they just have nothing at all to do with manners. Wouldn't you consider "skirts at least hitting just above the knee" a rule?

[Nina Star 9]

I think people need to stop obsessing over classifications and just go back to sewing and wearing nice costumes/outfits/whatever. :P
i think so, too. :P they need to follow the rules/classifications to a point, but stop obessing over them and arguing about them. x_x

what i mean is follow certain things to at least make a lolita dress (no clevage, knee-skirts, fluffy skirts, etc.), and hopefully a good, non-cosplay-ey one (use good-looking lace and fabric, use good colour combinations, etc.), and then know what they are wearing (such as, not wearing a pink frilly dress covered in strawberries and call it "EGL" (which i only use to refer to mana's brand, but that's beside the point), etc. of course, anohter side note, i refuse to use the term "sweet lolita" becuase i have always heard "amarori" and "ama" does not mean "sweet", unless there is some other meaning i do not know about. "nun lolita" is at least a correct term, then. but that is REALLY beside the point. :P).

exucse my rant. o_O;;

[Ameshini]

Well, there may not be official "real" rules about how you MUST behave when you're loli (although I do prefer those who act like they should), BUT there are rules about how you dress.

You know, Lolita IS about innocence and feminine sweetness. And even though you cosplay just ONCE as a Lolita, it would be a good idea to follow some standard lolita rules.
Some few things:
-Your skirt/dress should not be too short
-You should not reveal too much skin
-Too much make up is a big no-no. Even for gothic lolita. (Mana wears lots of make-up probably most because he's a MAN) I mean, it's supposed to be inspired by the Victorian period and the Rococo era. They used very little make-up at that time.
-Satin and vinyl = No. Maybe for a one-time cosplay, but otherwise, NO
-Don't be all dark and evil looking. ESPECIALLY NOT when you're a sweet loli. As it says in the "rules" at the LJ egl community, Lolitas should smile or look somewhat sweet or elegant. IT'S NOT GOTH.
-Lace, cutesy and a headress doesn't make it automaticly lolita. Please look at lolitas from f.example the GL Bible to get an idea of how it looks.
-Don't "mend" in too much western goth into gothloli. Gothic lolita is something completely different.
-Corsets are allowed as long as you have blouse.
-Oh please, PLEASE try to COORDINATE.
-Try to research a bit more. Maybe you're more pankuloli than gothloli or more classic loli than amaloli?

As an example:
This: -link (http://www.x-tra-x.de/index-htm.html?wg=10&ug=1&lang=english)- is NOT lolita.
Frankly: it's too "sexy"

Of course, f you're going for the more sexy Lolita style, it's gonna be erololi (erotic lolita), but it's not THAT very revealing at all. More like corsets without blouses and showing off undergarments (like bloomers or petticoats)
It's hard to pull of good erololi though; its not about being a hooker or a porn star. Here's an good example of erololi: http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l276/ameshini/gothloli114833082569.jpg
(From Lolitasnap.com)

AND PLEASE. Don't call yourself a EGL. Elegant Gothic Lolita is a part of Mana's brand, Moi-Même-Moitié.
I know there's own sections for that term, but it isn't really a section for itself. (It's something Mana made up to explain his view of a real lolita... I think anyways XD)

The reason why so many lolitists gets pissed off, is OFTEN because of how you dress, not neccessarily of how you behave. Of course, politeness and child-like innocence is important for a Lolita, and 'course, you DON'T need to act all elegant and formal all of the time, but if you're dressed as lolita once, it would be wise to act a bit more polite and feminine.

I suggest some of you to read what Wikipedia says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita_fashion


...excuse my bad english.

[CienDragon]

of course, anohter side note, i refuse to use the term "sweet lolita" becuase i have always heard "amarori" and "ama" does not mean "sweet", unless there is some other meaning i do not know about. "nun lolita" is at least a correct term, then. but that is REALLY beside the point. :P).


Yes but amai(甘い, あまい)is sweet and and when you put an adjective in front of a noun you drop the i. If it actually becomes one word(as opposed to two words, noun and adjective) sometimes the i is dropped and sometimes it isn't. For example amaimono(甘い物, あまいもの) is sweets or sweet food(literally sweet things) keeps the i but akachan(赤ちゃん, あかちゃん) which is baby(but literally more like little red one, red by itself is 赤い, あかい) loses the i. In order to know if it is amai being used as an adjective(dropping the i) or ama just being combined in to one word with loli then you'd have to see what kanji is being used. Since everyone is translating it as sweet I'm assuming it really is the kanji for sweet but having never seen it in japanese I really don't know.

[Nina Star 9]

ah~ i did not know that. thank you.

i have seen it in japanese, too lazy to go out and find it in a magazine or somethign somewhere, but i have seen it on a video written as "天", though i could be wrong... watching the video again right now and will edit if i am wrong.

EDIT> cannot seem to find it. maybe i was thinking of the wrong thing. :/ i need to do more research on this one.

[CienDragon]

I tried googling with 甘ロリ(amarori using the sweet kanji) and 尼ロリ(the only kanji I could find that was read as ama by itself and is a colloquial term that means nun and er a deragatory term that isn't really appropriate to post here) and got many more hits with 甘ロリ that were closer to what we think of as amarori(ie the pink sweet looking dresses and stuff like that) I did get hits with 尼ロリ but they seemed to be totally random stuff. Incidently 甘ロリ is what appears in the Japanese wikipedia article on loli under types of lolitas.


Edit: According too wwwjdic.com(a rather nice dictionary which also has a kanji lookup) 天 can be read as ama(when used as a prefix) but I really think that the one used to refer to the lolitas is 甘. 天 means heavens, sky, or imperial incidently.

[Nina Star 9]

ah, okay, i did not know that. thank you.

too bad i cannot find whatever it was that had 天 on it that was relating to lolita, though... :/ i should keep looking.

[firecat70]

I can't say I really follow them much. I once went to a heavy metal show in a baby blue lolita dress and moshed for 3 hours. SO yeah...

[ArchFaith]

Haha good for you.

I tend to behave a bit more polite in my lolita dresses, but I think behaving more "feminine" smacks of old-fashionedness (not a real word).

[Ameshini]

Oh yeah and of course, you shouldn't/don't need to give away your personality or anything (like some extreme lolitas do... I respect them very much tough. I personally mean that they're REAL lolis.) but remember that it's also a subculture and acting like a bitch while being loli is a bad way to represent the style (and remember, there's a lot of people into the style so you're actually representing a lot of people.)
Be at least a bit carefull being loli.

[XLucky_SevenX]

I can say this, only recently have I become interested in the Loli fashion. I was honestly a disgrace the first few times I ever tried it out, not knowing anything about the fashion, or any of the proper rules. Looking back, it's almost embarassing. But since I have been reading through this thread, and a few of the links, I at least now know more, so that I can at least attempt to do it properly. ^^ As for following the rules, I try, I really do when I wear my Loli outfits.

[Claudia Ethos]

I'm still new to lolita fashion like Lucky Seven. I'd have to say I broke most rules and didn't consider myself a lolita because I didn't think I was good enough.
With the manners, I can say to a good extent that I act like a traditional lolita with people I don't know. My grandmother taught me from a manners book. She was very strict when it came to being a good polite girl, dispite the fact she had me shopping with her at the malls every weekend.
But, I'm running away from my topic. Lolitas I can say, should just be good poliet people and never do anything that would make you look 'unladylike'. Such as working in a lolita dress, or other things that make you seem unmodest. (Is unmodest a word? I like making up words as well. And look I'm new to this forum too!)