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LiL QoH
08-22-2002, 06:14 PM
No dont say ones better...although I think majority of you are biased and have your hearts set hehe...I want to know your opinions! Serious answers please

Haruka
08-22-2002, 07:22 PM
well, cartoons are very one sided and one dimensional (no pun) the evil characters are just bad and evil, all of the "good" guys are super innocent (well, except batman...i like batman). where as, anime is muuuch more realisitc, (or atleast most of them are.) most of the time there is a reason why the "bad" guy is evil..sometjimes they are simply misunderstood. anime is simply more grown up...i have nothing aganist disney cartoons or anything....i think alot of American cartoons have the potential to be as good as anime. But american entertainment is still afraid of realism.......well thats my 2 cents ^_^

Lovelyangel_81
08-22-2002, 10:09 PM
My opinions is that anime and American cartoons are different. I think everybody pretty clear about that.

Anime is made for the Japanese viewers taste and cartoons over here are made for the American viewers taste. Of course, you have people (Us) who looks outside the box of what is post to be American standards or views.

Basically what I am saying that is there is no comparing the two. They are both are different and from another country.The people who make them make them for those particular people's taste.

I hope I am not confusing anyone here.

Studmaster
08-23-2002, 12:06 AM
Well, I had a whole rant ready to go and realized that the point I wanted to express was totally off base and jumbled beyond belief. So I'm going to try again.

Little QoH is right when she says we're all going to choose Anime over Cartoons, and instead of giving a halfass rant as to why I think so, I want to take a different approach. I really want to get on why we think this way (Or at least the reason why I think we all do.)

Lets face it, when it comes to Animation as whole now and days Anime is spanking American Animation for free. Its not much of a fight when you have a Great Show like Hand Maid May going up aganist something like Johnny Bravo. However, this isn't even the best American Animation has to offer, as there are shows out there that compare to HMM, but where are most of these shows now....In Reruns or off the Air. Hell, even the very best stuff out right now from American Houses (Samurai Jack, He-Man (if this keeps up and X-Men Evolution) don't stand up to HMM in many areas, and that doesn't even say for the True Classics. Why is this so though? I think its one factor says it all.

In this country Animation is for kids 2-11 and for it to be sucessful, it must grab at that market to make money. Sad to say, but this where the networks think the money will be made when it comes to Animation the main objective is to get these kids interested and keep them interested. And the way they think this is done, is to keep the show as an episodic, non plot advancement, minimum charcter complexity Action or Comedy fest, if its not meant to be educational. Yes, this is pretty much what American Animation is now and days (and the majority of the Animation falls into this archtype in this country). Sooner or later it begins to feel like we begin to watch the same episode over and over without any advancement at all. Now this doesn't mean all American Animation sucks. This means that if there isn't going to be things like plot advancement, and CD, things like Dialouge, Episode Quality and Charcters themselves are going to make or break the show. And sadly, many of these shows now and days are horrible in this regard. This makes for bad shows overall IMO. And it makes for the bad stereotype that American Anime gets.

However, speaking of "Anime" itself while it may be the clear winner it also has its own problems, now some may not be unique its still has them. Firstly while Anime is not just for kids and we see a lot more shows that acutally take things like Charcter Development and Plot Advancement into account, that doesn't mean every show is good. Hell when you think about it, there's a lot of Anime that really isn't stellar or is even passable. The thing is though, we may never receive all the Anime they see here, or even 10% of it. So our cloud of vision is already distorted as to what is bought out and what we can see from Fansubs, Digisubs, Bootlegs and What's released here. So many times, more than not, we're not looking at the whole picture. They only see what comes out here and even though its not even the best Anime has to offer, its still better than the spiel we get here from our own Homegrown efforts. And even Anime is taking a dive as to what it was in years before. More and More we're seeing shows that really don't really advance the Genre or even give us anything interesting we haven't seen before. Creativity is going down the tubes somewhat in Anime, and its becoming more and more of the case if you seen one show, you've seen all them all.

Basically, I perfer Anime over Cartoons, because Anime takes us beyond the juvenile mishmash that American Animation seems to give us. However, its not like comparing Apples and Oranges, if our perception of Cartoons changed, then more things like what we see in Anime would be accpeted and the talent could shine.

Oshi
08-23-2002, 02:22 AM
While I love anime... I still love The Simpsons and Looney Toons! Heheh ^_^;
Studmaster couldn't have said it better...

Rosiel
08-23-2002, 09:58 AM
Devil's advocate rant follows:

> anime is simply more grown up...

No, you are simply comparing things that are not comparable.

Comparing, say, Ghost in the shell to, say, Saturday morning cartoon would be preposterous. If you're talking about Saturday morning cartoons, well compare it to Hello Kitty and the like. There is a whole lot of character development going on with Batz-Maru... >__>

When comparing, you have to take into account target audiences.
When compating, realize that you only get the top 5% of anime brought over here, you get the best, while here you can see lot sof bad things that would never get exported.

X-men (in all its incarnations) was a great show, Wild Cats (I think that was the name) had nice character development for a superhero show, I loved Cadillacs and Dinosaurs (which I think was a co-production though so it might not apply), the new Batman series are /very/ well done.

Moreover...

Gargoyles, to me, is better than most anime on the market. It's quite as "deep", has amazing voice acting, great plots, fine characterization, and you have to admit the animation is better than made-for-TV anime. Yes, it's better. The characters are fully animated (no sliding cel trick, very little cel recycling, no only animating the mouth), the backgrounds are lush, the characters do not seem flat and 2D, and background characters tend to move even when the attention is focused on the foreground character.

Reboot! Reboot is a great show, and targeted at an older audience.

Asterix! Don't be so US-focused, other countries make cartoons too, and Asterix movies are funnier than any anime I have ever seen.

You want quality cartoons for kids? Cartoons that teach them something, that are like storybooks opening their pages to enfold them? Babar! The little French elephant.

What about The little Prince? What about The Lord of the Rings? What about Disney movies? Their animation & art is superior to Miyazaki (well if we agree to forget, say, Hercules >__<), and their soundtracks are on par with the best anime soundtracks out there (The Lion King one comes to mind immediately). What about that movie with horses, where not a word was said? What about Toy Story? What about Shrek?

There /are/ non-Japanese animated shows/movies that are great.

The fact that the animated medium is not as popular in all age groups as it is in Japan limits non-Japanese animation, because without interest there is no revenue, but there are /still/ gems produced.

So, please, don't slam the product of your own culture, if you do, non-Japanese animation will never get off the ground.

(That being said, I still watch a lot more anime than cartoons, and am EAGERLY awaiting Gargoyles on DVD.)

Rosiel
08-23-2002, 10:05 AM
And Oshi I can't believe I forgot the Simpsons! Social satire at its best! ^______^

Thinking of which adding /genres/ in the discussion might help, since Us animation tends to lack in serious stuff but excell in humour. (I admit it, I LOVE "The Flintstones", watched them in French for years!) While Japanese really lack in /good/ humourous shows (or maybe Japanese humour is like Brit humour, something I just don't get) but makes up for it with its serious offerings.

Rosiel
08-23-2002, 10:17 AM
About the above... I'm not trying to flame, or pick a fight, I am trying to show the other side of the coin which often gets forgotten by many... and even by me on occasion. ^___^

We are all responsible for the fate of animation in our respective countries. If we go see movies, watch TV, show them that we are interested, then the entertainment industry will produce what we want. If we slam all of their efforts... well they will produce more Johnny Bravo.

Koumori
08-23-2002, 11:07 AM
I was going to answer this, but Rosiel has made every point on my mind, and probably more articulately than I would, as well. Comparing anime and American cartoons is like comparing apples to oranges. They are not designed for the same audiences, and in both categories, there is a HUGE variety of "shades." You can look at your Evangelion or you can look at your Hamutaro. You can look at your Johnny Bravo (which I happen to enjoy in small doses) or you can look at your Batman: The Animated Series, or your Samurai Jack. Nothing is black and white, and trying to say that one huge sweeping national genre is better than another huge sweeping national genre reduces the whole argument to meaninglessness.

Studmaster
08-23-2002, 11:48 AM
Well Rosiel, let me say one thing....

Thank you for posting what I was going to post next, because its the exact point I was going to get at this morning. My last post was breaking down the Psychology of it all, however my biggest mistake (hopefully my only one) was to not metion Cartoons in a fairer light and put up the best of what we have to offer (Gargoyles = What I consider the premeir Cartoon of the 90's, Period!) aganist the caca we get put on DVD's and Adult Swim (Megami Kohusei) and when you do that the gap isn't that big. Hell, I can even rat off even more Cartoons that are damn good.

Transformers: Everyone knows this series, love it or hate it, I know everyone respects it, and not to metion that for the 4 Seasons it had, it had some of the best stories, Charcters and Atmosphere in any show period. Hell, it was so good, it spawned 4 more Series until it was done in Japan itself. There may be some people who think Transformers was Japanese because the original Toy concept did come from Japan, but people who know their shit (not Otaku Zombies) know that while Japan had a big part to play in Transformers, the whole entire concept as we know it (escpecially the story) comes from the West.

Thundercats is a personal favorite of mine. Even though the show may not have stood the test of time to some, but the Later Seasons (Second Half of the 86 Season - 88) were some of the greatest shows ever in the 80's. Thundercats was great.

Babar: Wow, talk about memory Lane. This is European, but its still one of the better Animated shows at the time. I don't remember a bad episode of this show....Really

Gummi Bears was a great show, still is today

Tale Spin may have been a hit or a miss of a show sometimes, however when it Hit, it Hit!

Heck the whole Disney Afternoon up till 94 produced some good stuff.

Then there's the Underrated stuff like The Wizard of Oz or Conan: The Adventurer that doesn't seem to get much props.

This isn't even to metion Feature Length Films. I have a lot more posts in this thread coming up, so stayed tuned.

Celine
08-23-2002, 11:50 AM
Asterix!!!! Rosiel, thank you for mentioning that one!! I LOVE Asterix. I doubt most people have seen it, though... but I can't even remember how many movies and books I had about Asterix & Obelix and company.. XD Yeah, and my mom raised me on Babar. There's a Madeleine cartoon as well.

I'm also going to support non-Japanese animation here. I personally think that the best animated shows are not Japanese, and I therefore watch mostly American cartoons.

First off, I am a huge Disney fan. ^_^ I've enjoyed almost all of their animated feature films (Sleeping Beauty, Beauty and the Beast, and The Black Cauldron being my personal faves), and a good number of their regular cartoons. I spend a lot of time watching the Toon Disney station because they show older shows I really adore- like Duck Tales, Chip 'n Dale Rescue Rangers, Talespin, etc (they also show Gargoyles). The regular Disney channel shows Kim Possible, another fun little show.

Besides Disney, a lot of other companies have produced highly regarded animated features. In addition to those which Rosiel listed, there are all the Don Bluth films, Chicken Run, Wallace & Gromit, etc. Don't forget older films like The Last Unicorn (which was actually done with both Japanese & American talent).

For what it's worth, one of my favorite cartoons is Batman Beyond. It's definitely got a more mature attitude than kiddie cartoon shows (bah to CN for taking away the original cool intro). The entire show is very dark and serious while still being action-oriented.

There are a decent number of adult cartoons on these days- The Simpsons, South Park, Baby Blues, etc. While these shows may not appeal to everyone, they are, as Rosiel said, excellent social satire. Oh, I guess I should mention Aeon Flux... if anyone ever watched that, it was... very bizarre. I didn't like it personally because it tried to be deep and insightful but came off as nonsensical, but that's the same reason I don't like a lot of anime.

Arguing that Japanese animation is for an older audience also doesn't work because they have at least as many childish cartoons as we do.

If you complain that there are not any 'realistic' American cartoons, what about stuff like Daria? It's aimed at a high-school audience, like a lot of Japanese shows, and it is about as realistic.

I don't think that American animation has a bad stereotype. I just think a lot of anime fans tend to overlook all that the rest of the world, including their own country, has to offer. Years ago, anime fans had to convince others that Japan had more to offer than just animated pornography. Now it seems that anime fans have to be convinced that America has more to offer than inane and repetitive childish shows.

Rosiel
08-23-2002, 12:22 PM
> Asterix!!!! Rosiel, thank you for mentioning that one!! I LOVE Asterix.

This deserves a hug! I didn't know people in the US watched Asterix! My personal favorite is "Asterix et Cleopatre"... "The nose that changed the face of the world." LOL I have ALL the books in my apartment. I still can't believe that series was even translated in latin!

Which makes me think about manga... it is very primitive when compared to the offerings of other countries when it comes to "graphic novels". It's a genre that has been highly developped in Europe, where there is no such thing as zippotone-backgrounds and a million assistants drawing for you. Books take years to be completed, and each panel is a work of art. I highly recommend anything by Bourgeon (historically accurate epics) , the Thorgal series, Loisel... to open your mind a little, and see beyond two-dimensional pop-art Japan to something else, more organic and more alive.

I also have to admit a deep-rooted love of Tintin. If you want good mysteries (Not Clamp Campus detective stuff), Tintin is perfect for you. It boasts full-faceted, unique characters, and the most creative use of insults /ever/. I actually have a dictionary of Capitaine Haddock's insults. It's priceless.

> Talespin, etc

I forgot Darkwing Duck! How awful!
"I am the shadow that quacks in the night!"

And, like Celine, I am a big Disney fan... Sleeping Beauty was a masterpiece, and I also love Lion King and Snow White. I have to say though, their latest efforts (Tarzan, Atlantis etc) have been disappointing at best. I wish they would return to the musical genre, they were so good at it.

Oshi
08-23-2002, 12:32 PM
Mehhh... Atlantis ruled if you ask me >.>;;
And I am SOO looking forward to Treasure Planet... the previews, at least make it look incredible...
Sheesh, once you go Disney, you can never fully escape it ^_^

I think we can agree one thing... alot of these new Cartoon Cartoons on CN are just like... too... crap. *points fingers at Ed, Edd and Eddy*
Best new show on CN has got to be Justice League... >.>;

Nadeshiko
08-23-2002, 02:04 PM
American animation has begun to mature in the past few years. We have more animated cartoons directed towards an older audience such as Family Guy, Futurama, etc...and the animated movies have matured some such as Titan AE. I still have yet to see Atlantis. Though I do want to see Treasure Planet. *^^*

I prefer some American animation. I don't mind Disney since it's always been old skewl for me. Others just don't really get to me. I love Daria to death. *^^* I'll watch the Simpsons every now and then.

But, I've always loved my anime. Perhaps because the culture is different from what we're engrained in. There's so many things in anime you wouldn't see on american tv. An obvious one is the gay / lesbien thing. They deal with serious matters such as death. They're not afraid to show whatever. I feel some of the anime movies are superior to any American made movies around here. I haven't seen a movie like Perfect Blue ever done. So much more can be presented when animated. The Japanese take advantage of this 120%.

So, that's my two cents. ^^

Neko Cathy
08-23-2002, 02:14 PM
Hmm... basically almost everyone here has said stuff what I was about to say..

Most of the American Cartoons in my opinion are made to not let people fully get into the situation and not fully think. However, most of them have to comply with American censorship because most people see cartoons for kids. However, that's not fully true if you watch Simpsons (ROAD RAGE GAME RULES!), King of the Hill (how come that wasn't mention? Curse you people!), Ren and Stimpy, South Park, Darwkin Duck and other stuff.

Japanese Animation can takes things far without much limits because of cultrual views and aspects. I'm very shocked that you guys, being Otakus and all did not mention this: Anime <b><i>is</b></i> a form of art. A form of expression. Anime portray strong emotions such as shown in Ayashi no Ceres, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Gundam Wing, Trigun, Angel Sanctuary, and the list can go on! That's what makes most Anime series more so realistic. If you haven't noticed, most American cartoons won't even cross the line that far to reveal strong emotions because it might lead into situation that becomes more severe.. perhaps a little too explict than what cencorship laws allow maybe? And when they do, they try to block it out with something humorous or whatever. My observations could be wrong, but that's what I've been seeing so far.

It's all about cultral aspects that separate the style of art and cartoons.

Jinx
08-23-2002, 02:37 PM
Hmmm... what about anime cartoons? Err...

Has anyone ever seen "Totally Spies"? It's a chicky mystery cartoon on ABC Family, and it's a total anime ripoff. >_< Speed lines and sweatdrops all over the place! ugh!

Personally, it drives me nuts. >_<

Daala
08-23-2002, 02:45 PM
Don't forget that Looney Tunes was really made for a adults and the old cartoons had adult themes. This is what set the base for all Japanese animation.
While the US moved to a more cleaner cartoon format, the japanese kept with the adult theme. The other driving force is the sales by 2-11 age kids that want the toys for a lot of these shows. Money is what makes the world go round, and what ever works won't change.
But in the last few years US animation has grown up a bit, and the kids that grew up with GI Joe, and Robotech are the ones making the cartoons now.

shoooo... if I was in the biz, I'd remake GI. Joe just like the new comic book! (he they remade He-man, it could happen)

A small rant ^_^

Rosiel
08-23-2002, 02:45 PM
(Big combo post)
(I loooooooooooooove debates! *_______*)

> Mehhh... Atlantis ruled if you ask me >.>;;

I think I got so fed up when it came to the 100th "French are dirty stinky people" joke that it killed my enjoyment of the movie. LOL

> did not mention this: Anime is a form of art.

Well I may be seen as an Otaku by others, but I like to keep my perspectives. Sure, anime is fun, sure anime it pretty, sure, I like it... but ART? O_O I think this is going too far,

As a society we have become too lenient with the word "art". People put a toilet on display in a museum and it's art. Everything is "art".

Let's not forget what 99.9% of anime is, that is a marketing machine made to sell toys and make money. It's not /art/.

I'll give it pop-art status, but that's about it.

I don't even know if there is a single movie yet I would deem worthy of being art, and surely not something made-for-consumption like anime. Hmm... movies as art, I'll have to think about this...

> portray strong emotions such as shown in Ayashi no Ceres
> Neon Genesis Evangelion, Gundam Wing, Trigun, Angel
> Sanctuary

It's funny that Angel Sanctuary should come into this discussion as it's a God-awful anime, really not something that would help one argue about the virtues of the genre (the same for Ayashi no Ceres actually).

I have a lot of respect for GW but what sets it apart has nothing to do with strong emotions -as the most poignant emotions in GW are very understated- and everything with the fact that Sunrise came up with a smart, pretty and ethnically and philosophically diverse show.

> If you haven't noticed, most American cartoons won't
> even cross the line that far to reveal strong emotions

I don't know... I see fights and cursing and anger and jealousy in American cartoons too. I see love and despair and sadness. Unless, say, someone ties me up and forces me to watch The Carebears. LOL.

> My observations could be wrong, but that's what I've been seeing so far.

Watch more serious shows. X-men, Batman, Gargoyles... you will see strong emotions not hidden behing humour.

Lovelyangel_81
08-23-2002, 03:27 PM
Alot of you guys make great and interesting points. I love watching anime and I love watching American cartoons. The cartoons here love them. I grown watching Disney cartoons and some of the cartoons that were mention. I love Spongebob Squarepants. I think it's one the best cartoons out there now. That's my opinion.

Kusanagi
08-23-2002, 03:29 PM
Well, let me add my 2 cents to the debate.

You can't really compare the two as they both have different places.

True, some anime I have seen (NOT the normal stuff they show in the US like Hamtaro, Yu-gi-oh, Pokemon) tends to dive deep into emotions or the human phsyche. Several episodes of Cowboy Bebop and Candidate for Goddess have deep underlying emtional themes. Most of the anime that makes it on american television was either targeted for kids in Japan or has been watered down to target kids here in America.

Now, I love anime, but sometimes I feel like turning on a good old American cartoon like King of the Hill, Futurama, Jonny Bravo, or the Simpsons and laughing my head off. And wether you like it or not, South Park made some changes to what was deemed "acceptable" to show on TV.

Samauri Jack is one of the best shows I have ever seen. It was designed to be different (Face it, the artwork isn't that good, but that is some of its charm) and it still retains the emotions and the struggle. I was really impressed in the episode where he finds the ruins of his home and has flashbacks to when he was a child.

Another interesting note: Many animes tend to have connecting storylines, as in you can't understand what happens between one episode and two episodes later unless you see the one in between. I like this sometimes, but once again, at times I just want to watch one episode that can stand out on its own.

Batman, Superman, Thundercats, and even the Simpsons all had this. Each episode had a resolution in the end, and yet the story continually progressed. The Star Wars movies and Star Trek series are also good examples.

But with short cartoons, like Bugs Bunny, Jonny Bravo, ect. are just made to make you laugh.

I like all forms of animation.

BTW, interesting note about Disney. The first film in which they strayed away from realistic drawing and exaggerated several features (ANIME!) was in The Little Mermaid. Notice the difference between the characters in say, Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, and Little Mermaid, for example?

Like I said, they both have different places and in reality the area where they overlap is very small compared to what each can offer as a whole.