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Q-Tron
07-09-2007, 07:31 PM
I really want a pair of Air Trecks that look exactly like the ones from the show, Air Gear. The only problem is I'm not sure on how to go about doing it. My best solution is to buy aggressive skates and use resin or plastic molding to make them more like Air Trecks. I'm still not sure how to do that or if I would still be able to fit the motors or potentiometers in the skates (oh, I forgot to mention I'm working on actual Air Trecks). I'm also not a good web searcher and I was wondering if anyone could find small motors around 2"x1"x.75" with a good foot-pound ratio. Any suggestions are welcome and please give me all of your thoughts because I'm dead out of them. Thanks guys. :skidude2:

prismswordsman
07-09-2007, 09:48 PM
Firstly, you can not buy a pair of skates that look exactly like the ones from the show. Your only chance would be to heavily modify a pair of normal inline skates or pay someone to do it for you.

Secondly, actual air treck technology (aka super suspension, tiny motors) does not exist. There is no current motor that could fit in a normal sized skate that could provide the necessary torque to get you moving, and there is no [small] power supply that could power that motor for more than a few minutes.

Ritsuki_Reji
07-13-2007, 03:37 PM
prismswordsman is prolly right, i highly doubt that you could possibly do that, but hey its a good idea right? im actually gunna look into that it sounds like fun lol!

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 04:58 PM
with the right sized battery pack and a good setup, you could get a motor to power a set of inline skates. it will take some modification to make them look lke air treks though. or, you can go all out and make them from scratch using aluminum, fiberglass or even carbon fiber, or a mix of two of the above. but i hope that you know electrical, cause youre gonna need it no matter which direction you take. and yes, there probably is a motor out there that would work and is the right size, the way technology keeps going, it wouldnt surprise me. i would suggest looking at rc car motors. some of those are able to push those little cars to 60+ moh, so you could probably get about 10 mph with human weight and all added on. good luck though.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-15-2007, 05:28 PM
if you make them from scratch - or remove the wheel base on a normal brand of skates (normally heavily riveted on) and rebuild or build onto it you may be able to.

What I am suggesting is basically adding a bit of "platform" to the skate by making an area between the floor of the foot and the wheel base for electronics.

If you did it properly you could fit a higher torque motor using a gear assembly to power just the rear most wheel - and really once you get going inertia begins to take over. My only suggestion would be to add a press button in the typical rubber brake thats on most skates to stop and start the motor :P

Granted I've never seen the show, i'm just trying to be helpful from a technical stand point.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 05:57 PM
thx for the advice chris-chan...and yea i know a little about electronics and my dad's an electronic engineer... BUT i was wondering if u knew how i could make the skates from carbon fiber or aluminum...i'm sort of new to building things from scratch so i have no clue how these materials shape or mold...

Yuki Souma
07-15-2007, 05:57 PM
I've tried making Working Air Treks, using both RC Car motors/Engines.

For the RC motor, I just used a small chain to attach it to the wheel(Note: They looked ugly, and alittle lopsided, the motor was attached to the heel, and going to the back wheel) This way sorta worked, but the battery(Used an RC one+Speed control/etc) was alittle hard to fit in, I ended up taping it to my leg, and it hurt. I used the remote for throttle, since I Don't know how to do the controls they have in the show o.0 They worked decently, and were pretty quick, over heated though really fast, and it was alittle difficult to keep my balance if I pulled the throttle too quick.

I also tried doing it with a Nitro Enging out of my Savage. This one, well don't try it, it didn't end well.

Lots of power(For an RC engine, close to 1hp iirc), only downside is trying to find a place for fuel/electronics/etc. Is nearly impossible, the engine melted some of the plastic on the skate. Acceleration is alittle slow >.> But once you get going they went damn fast. The downside: If you even try to skate normally you damage the engine... I had to order a new piston+clutch plate.

Working ATs are a cool concept, but I dunno, Not worth the trouble making I think, Mine kept falling apart, and ended up getting banged up from falling over a few times, and they didn't really look like ATs anyway, more like frankenstiened foot wheels.

><

DivineSage
07-15-2007, 06:07 PM
I found this tutorial online, I hope it helps you:

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=125448741&MyToken=b1258c34-59a8-426a-b475-074911767006ML

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 06:13 PM
actually i had planned on using a small gear motor and attaching a large gear directly to the wheel to increase torque so i don't have to worry about heavy equipment. as for the power, i plan on getting the best of technology i can and putting it into the custom built frames. i also wanted to get rechargeable
power so i wouldn't have to meddle around with the skates to change the batteries. to control the speed i plan on putting a pressure sensitive potentiometer around the toe area so the harder u push the faster u go...

the main concerns i have are the frames and the boots. i plan on using roller hockey skate boots and making the frames from scratch. i contemplated on using wonderflex but realized it wasn't quite strong enough. i want to use a strong fiber or metal of sorts. if u can find anything that i could use to CUSTOM build the frame please PM it to me because it's of great importance...

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 07:13 PM
thx for the advice chris-chan...and yea i know a little about electronics and my dad's an electronic engineer... BUT i was wondering if u knew how i could make the skates from carbon fiber or aluminum...i'm sort of new to building things from scratch so i have no clue how these materials shape or mold...

no mold needed. just a welder, someone who knows how to weld aluminum, and fiberglass/carbonfiber material with epoxy ready. just make sure to triangulate the frame or it will break. pretty much lay everything out on paper first so as not to screw up anything. make sure you leave room in the frame for the motor and battery, or have the right trek motor powered and the left one contain the battery and just have a wire run up your leg and to the other trek. they dont seem like to difficult of a design, so it shouldnt be too hard. and fiberlass or carbon fibr isnt neede, it just adds some strength to the frame. i would also suggest using Li ion batteries cause they last longer and i think they give a little bit of extra torque to motors. (i use them in my halo hopper for paintbal and noticed my hopper actually fed faster than with regular energizer batteries). also, they have rechargable Li ion batteries, so that works out for you.
and like Yuki Souma said, dont use gas (nitro if you get rc one) powered engines. they have a slower acceleration time than electric one, and they have a higher speed, but youll have to devise a way of getting everything into your trek frames and then have to worry about refilling and all. plus, majority of those motors use a glow plug with pull start meaning you must insert a glow plug into the top of the motor and then try to pull start the engine to get t going, and it doesnt always appen on the first try. plus, youll frames will get really hot, pretty fast, so dont touch. also, they dont have the cool sound of electric motor. :toothy:
and i never thought of a pressure sensitive switch in the shoe itself. pretty ingenious. my original plan was a wire connected to the trek with a throttle on the end to allow more energy to go through for more speed and brakes would be a simple slide or maybe a little brake at the back like on regular skates.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 07:38 PM
hey thx! i think i might use the lithium ion batteries and i think i can get them at radio shack which is convenient for me...

but i'm not sure if i could use the aluminum for the frames. i think i'm just going to mold some really strong plastic so i can form it to fit in the motors, switches, and power sources...

but before i do any of this i'm going to get some styrofoam and make a model of the way i want the frames to look. then i'm going to make a reverse mold with clay and "pour melted plastic into it?" i'm not sure what to do from there but my aunt is pretty crafty and i'm going to her house to make it...

thx for all the help dude. with the combined ideas of all of u guys i've got a good idea of what i'm doing...

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 07:43 PM
that reversed mold idea doesnt sound too good. youll have to hollow out the frame and all to make room for everything, cut out a lot of pieces and all. but making a styrofoam mold first is an excellent idea. remember, you can measure two times, but only screw up once. in other words, you can get the right measurement everytime you measure, but if you cant it wrong or the measurements off after you cut, youre screwed. good luck though, and after posting all of these, i now wanna make my own pair. i wonder if its possible to make a pair aroud an old pair of shoes i have.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 08:01 PM
actually starting with an old pair of shoes is a good start...all u have to do is make the frame (the part i'm having troubles with) and somehow attach it to the shoe...also, make sure the shoe has good ankle support or they will hurt alot to ride...

SunSurfAndAnime
07-15-2007, 08:27 PM
I'm seriously considering planning a way to do this.

I look forward to hearing more about how you do it Q-tron.

I've been doing research for like the past few hours, and I've got a lot of ideas

For instance, building the wheels myself and creating high torque, in-wheel dc motors (or attempting to find suitable ones for sale but the more I look the more I think I'd have better results creating the electronics and fabricating the wheels).

I still feel only the rear wheel would need to be powered but if I could build it into both then immense speeds could be reached when both are used as active motors for a type of "turbo" mode and during normal operation the front wheel could be used as a dc generator if a brushed motor was used (since it's the only kind that outputs DC).

Then, by using li Ion batteries in some formation along with the generator idea, when the motors are inactive normal human powered skating could provide substantial if not complete charge to the batteries.

Oh, yeah and scratch that "I haven't seen the anime" comment earlier - t'was part of my research ;) and I love it. haha I'll be watching the rest tonight o.o

I'm planning on dissecting that opening scene where it shows a 3D view of how their air treks are designed cause it gave me several more ideas. Such as a weight balanced speed control (via using two of the sensors Q-tron mentioned) so that when you naturally lean forward to balance yourself and put more weight on the balls of your feet you can speed up while if you put all your weight on your heel (like in typical inline skates) and lift off the ball you slow and stop.

It's really surprising how viable these things really are - at least in a limited capacity compared to the show

speaking of which - i'm off to watch more ^^

Thanks for introducing me to it guys!

Yuki Souma
07-15-2007, 09:16 PM
yeah, I think we're a few years from micro motors like the ones in the show being readibly available, specifically durable ones. :\ Also, focus on getting them working before making them look good XD

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 10:22 PM
yeah, i started watching the series today too and fell in love with it! right now im on episode 11 and hoping to get to 20 by the time i go to bed. (1:30ish). and that generator idea is a good one. never thought of that either or the two switches for speeding and braking. yall are coming up with more and more ideas. and the shoes im thinking about planning mine on are year old etnies. dont know if theyd have enough support, but i need a new pair of shoes anyway and if i can make a frame that the shoe slides into so i can take it out and wear them regularly, i could probably take them to school and wear them (community college). and doesnt watching the anime and talking about the treks make you want to go out and make a pair, or is it just me? the more i talk about it the more i wanna make them. fell free to pm me if yall want to talk about this somemore just in case the thread gets lost again. oh, and could yall post a list of possible parts and where you can get them at along with price? thanks, ill try to find some and post those, but id love to see what yall guys are gonna use.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 10:35 PM
yay for Air Gear fans!!!!!!! and no it's not just u...as soon as i saw it i went out on my rollerblades again for the first time in months...i have made a practical list of parts and i'll PM it to u when i get it compiled on Cosplay.com...me and sunsurfandanime had a long convo about the best way to make them and how they could be mass produced and all of that...also, the shoes u have are skateboard shoes so they should have great ankle support as long as they're tied...if u wanna get in on mine and sunsurtandanime's little AT thing then just PM us ur ideas...i'm making a schedule so i can actually get things done without procrastinating...if we all make a pair we can work out the kinks together so we don't have the complications of figuring it out for ourselves...also, go to this link i have...it has alot of air treck pictures that should halp u build them... http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q246/shortie_210/Air%20Trecks/

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 10:41 PM
thanks man. and that mass production idea sounds pretty good. and yeah, i wouldve gone out on my skates if they hadnt been thrown away cause they were too small. i should probably start making a list of products i plan to use. im thinking about finding the strongest motor on the market and putting it on a pair so i know it could move me (i weigh 220 lbs). ill see what i can find and id love to get into yalls conversation. like i said, feel free to pm me.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 10:50 PM
the problem i can see you having is enough torque (which i'm luckily not to have much of because i weigh 98 lbs).....to increase torque i suggest using a standard gear motor with a small gear at the end...attach a larger gear with more teeth directly to the wheel to increase torque...this works because the power operated to rotate a small 5 tooth gear 10 times will only rotate the larger gear once...that means more power put into one rotation...that larger of step u have the more torque u get...the only downfall is a loss in speed...for smaller people like me, it will be hard to find a good balance without too much torque or speed...alot of tinkering i expect...

although the motor is a big leap to make...i fear making the frames will be extremely time-taking...i would like frames that look like AT's and function...i have no experience in making things from scratch so that sounds really difficult for me to do...but that's also gonna be the first thing, considering i have to make it fit the motors, gears, and switches...if u happen to have any specialty in that then i'd like to see how you would make the frames, then i would copy the design for myself...the combined knowledge of all of us = some really sweet FUNCTIONING AT's...yay!!!!!!!!

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 10:56 PM
thanks for the help with higher torque on the motor. i completely forgot about gear ratios and if you hadnt had told me, my dad probably wouldve then looked at me like i was weird for not knowing (my family's full of genious's, and supposedly im one of them) and like i said, the only idea i have for making the frames properly is welding aluminum. im thinking about getting my uncles welder from him and then buying some aluminum once i size up the amount i need. right now on a little sticky note im working on designing a "case" for the shoes to slip into then buckle over them like regular skates. i figured using real shoes will give me the approximate size for real AT's. and thanks for those pics. theyre coming in handy with my design. and how fast do you think we can get these things to move anyway?

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 10:59 PM
ultimately the speed depends on your gear ratio and the motor you have...if you made skates just for speed i estimate 12-15mph max...if u keep a good balance so u get better acceleration and better uphill speed 9-11mph is about the max...IF we can make them...

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 11:06 PM
i dont think its an if we can make them, the technologys already out there, just not many people have realized it till now. you never know, we might be planning the next big extreme sport here, and it all started cause of someones imagination. and thats about what i expected. i was thinking about 10 mph, so thats not bad. and im also starting to think more fiberglass. maybe even a aluminum frame for electronics with a fiberglass cover over it for protection/looks. could be painted any color you like and could take a beating. ill check on the prices and start a list. i should have one ready by this afternoon. and yeah, these are probably gonna be some sweet AT's.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 11:18 PM
dude, i'm so psyched...you have no clue...this thread had like 2 posts until today and this is when it all starts...i feel like i'm building a design team of some of the best amateur engineers out there...tomorrow i'm going to Walmart to get some styrofoam to carve into the basic shape i want, and i'm going to radioshack to get some parts...hopefully i'll have a couple of pictures posted on photobucket showing the progress and giving you guys some ideas...i also think we should start our own Storm Riders team! lol...

prismswordsman
07-15-2007, 11:22 PM
^^ If you are really going to make them, then you will probably need an aluminum frame, since all your weight will be concentrated at 4 points instead of the classic 8. For prototyping purposes, it would be much better to buy steel/aluminum "c-channel" bars, and then just cut away what will not be needed rather than weld separate pieces. An AT style shell can be made easily enough to cover the insides.

As for your power supply, I would seriously consider some type of leg/back mounted battery instead of actually putting them inside the skate. That way, you can use much bigger batteries without needing to put them in a small frame, and they will be likely covered up by pants.

Also, the type of motor style you may want to look at is the "hub motor". This kind of motor is actually embedded in the wheel. It's current popular use is for wheelchairs, motorcycles, and bicycles. Usually they are in sizes of 8 inches or bigger, but it can probably be scaled down to half size if you are only aiming for 10 mph.

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 11:25 PM
yes to everything but the team! i dont think that will work out.
and yeah, i was thinking about going to the store tommorow and checking out the price of aluminum per foot and all. ive been checking out the price of fiberglass, and its pretty reasonable. about $8 a yard for the strongest stuff a website had (not the strongest, but you dont need bidirectional cloth for something like this). im checking the prices of resin right now and learning how to use fiberglass. never really done it before. and i would head on out and buy everything now if i didnt need the money for an upcoming con. lets just hope i get the job that i got an interview for this week, but even then i wont start till august, so dont expect much progress from me anytime soo. maybe a stryofam model and beginning welds along with schematics, but thats about it till september or so. i really hope this works out, you really dont know how syked i am, but then again, you probably do.

i was thinking about cutting a hole in a wheel and adding a motor, but if they already come that way, ill check them out.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 11:31 PM
i feel ya man...but i'm not sure if i'm going to wait until september for much...i'm doing a loca American Idol competition and if i win i get $200...by that time i already should have about $200 to spend + the money i get for being SpongeBob at a local festival which is around $75...if i win i end up with about $475 which is more than enough to do this project...if u need money that bad i am willing to help u financially if i have left over money, because i don't want to be the only one with AT's. plus the more people that have them, the more i can help and get help on building them...so we both get done alot quicker...i'm hoping to be done shortly after my birthday which is August 11...once i get the frame built it's all downhill from there...dude i can't wait to be going down the streets on these things and showing off my coolness!!!!!!!

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 11:32 PM
btw...where are you watching the first 20 episodes of Air Gear? i've only seen the first 4...technically 1-2-3-6....because the anime-network is mentally deficient

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 11:39 PM
i think they most expensive thing is gonna be the electronics. the frame should be pretty inexpensive and easy, and could knock that out with whatever i got left over from the con and from working at the local paintball field, then its onto fiberglassing it and taking care of imperfections. depending on my final price i come out with is how quickly ill be done. i dont need any financial help though, but still thanks for asking. if i get the job i start in august and ill be making $8 and hour working aproximately 15-20 hours a week, and im getting $6 an hour at the field, so im walking home with about $72 a day working one day a week, but its not a definite source of income. if i need financial help, ill just ask my parents. but i dont think its gonna cost more than about $100 depending on what we use and where we get it. if we need things cheaper, theres always ebay.
and ive been watching mine on youtube and veoh. i caught the first 9 on youtube and the rest im watching on veoh till i get to 24 or the guy on youtube puts in the ones from 10-23. veoh has realy good quality though and a bigger screen than youtube.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 11:44 PM
thx...you're right about the quality...youtube's video quality sucks compared to this...

chris-chan
07-15-2007, 11:47 PM
yeah. its a lot better. well, im gonna be getting off for the night so i can finish episode 11 and get a supply list started. oh, and dont use hub motors, theyre going for about $180 a pop.

Q-Tron
07-15-2007, 11:50 PM
i've got the electronic part figured out in my head...once i get the parts that i need it will be a simple design.....

Pooru
07-16-2007, 12:11 AM
heres a buncha things to think about

cpu
pressure control system
shock absorbtion
water resistance
overheating
plating for grinding
bases
wheel composition more importantly its not the motor that will be affected but the energy source

all these play a part

personally instead of using a motor and adding weight I constructed my own diagram of how the wheel would function

all thanks to this little tamiya car

although I'd like to talk about Air Treks (mobile ones)
im kinda iffy about competition xD
but if interested drop me a pm and aim and we'll share ideas

SunSurfAndAnime
07-16-2007, 02:22 AM
Just got back from live free, die hard - AMAZING MOVIE - but don't let me derail:

Okay, I'm most definitely described as jack-of-all-trades master of none so bare with me (and I see I've missed...a lot o.o)

I'm definitely going to be working from concept forward, and then probably using a hobbiest fabrication shop to get the things I want made for me since the prices can usually be pretty reasonable.

I'll draw up some plans and upload the images in the next few days (and/or PM them to both/all of you) but as it stands the current -main- design (cause believe me I have more then one running around up there) has some of the following components / features:

In-Wheel, integrated motors:

Brushed, super-torque, variable speed, reversible DC motor with double sided hollow (for wiring) axle (i.e. motor has powered bar coming out of both sides) obviously made out of something strong enough to bare the weight and design (steel / titanium maybe).

The body of the motor is actually attached to the wheel which is formed out of a hard resin of some kind - and if I can manage it - contains red LCDs with control wiring piped through said axle so that the braking effect seen in the show can be achieved.

The axles themselves would be secured to the hard suspension structure (hundreds of pounds tolerance - making it solid except during extreme conditions like large jumps / falls seen in the series) while the motor and attached wheel would spin, instead of the typical motor spinning an axle attached to a wheel.

Electronics and battery area

A raised foot base along with an added Heel of about 1 inch (typical male dress shoes have about this) would provide a thin area to contain the following parts:

printed circuitry so that all wiring is about as thick as a piece of laminated paper
Thinner Lithium Ion Batteries on top of circuitry from heel to toe
soft suspension in heel (creating the slight heel but adding comfort for typical bumps/curves/etc)
pressure pad with heel (probably more integrated with the soft suspension since that would effect any attempt at a proper sensor in the heel) and ball variable sensors for speed control and a big toe 0/1 sensor for "options" control - integrated into the typical comfort pad

a hard press sensor in the outer front toe of the shoe would act as a hard off

Normally you put them on and stand up and as is seen in the series, your weight brings them out of "sleep mode" and you begin going. By kicking the toe of the shoe against the ground once you turn off the motors and allow for normal human propulsion and the circuitry flips so that both the front and back motors charge the batteries.

Another kick or 0 pressure on the pad for a certain amount of time resets them to normal

the side of the skate would obviously be where the indicator LCD would be located as is also seen in the series

maintain inline rear rubber brake in the design for when under human propulsion preferably in a way thats less obvious so as to maintain the Air Trek look

verdatum
07-16-2007, 02:25 AM
I do hope you decide to do the math on this project before generating the prototype. A bit of basic physics and electronics calculations are much cheaper than the parts and labor needed to build something like this. Prove it completely on paper instead of buying stuffz and testing it out. If it doesn't work, consider perhaps just building a nonpowered version of the air treks. It may be that their design is completely impractical in regards to control anyway.

I suspect you'll find that either the battery size becomes unreasonably large or the battery life becomes unreasonably short for what you intend to do.

I'm completely confident that there are dozens of patents on the books for motorized skates (skateboards, skooters, etc), and you'll find that none of them are terribly practical. Without some particular technological innovation, you are bound by the same laws as those before you. But full text searches of the US patent office exist back to 1973, so check it out.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-16-2007, 02:33 AM
I'm completely confident that there are dozens of patents on the books for motorized skates (skateboards, skooters, etc), and you'll find that none of them are terribly practical. Without some particular technological innovation, you are bound by the same laws as those before you. But full text searches of the US patent office exist back to 1973, so check it out.For this particular issue, I've done some searching (though not an extensive one just yet) and there in fact does exist said patents and working gas powered motorized skates exist on the market.

What is / would be unique is the way in which Air Treks are designed. So far as I can tell all current designs are built using external additions to typical inline skates. Between the unique, hands free control system, and the unique propulsion designs that any practical (so far as that word can be used) working Air Treks would use - I'm fairly confident that it would not infringe on any currently active patents.

Battery consumption is a concern though luckily micro technology has been producing smaller, more powerful batteries every year with the increasing demands that mobile electronics have been placing on the industry so i'm also not as worried about that. Further, by using one wheel for propulsion and the other as a DC generator the battery life is substantially extended in any design.

None the less - they are all great points, and like you said - working from paper up is always best.

verdatum
07-16-2007, 04:02 AM
What is / would be unique is the way in which Air Treks are designed. So far as I can tell all current designs are built using external additions to typical inline skates. Between the unique, hands free control system, and the unique propulsion designs that any practical (so far as that word can be used) working Air Treks would use - I'm fairly confident that it would not infringe on any currently active patents.

I wouldn't worry too much about patent infringement during early development of a product. I was mostly suggesting patent searches as a source of inspiration and education on what does and does not work. You really don't have to worry about patent infringement until you have a successfull product that people are willing to buy. To reach such a stage from scratch could easily take a decade.


Further, by using one wheel for propulsion and the other as a DC generator the battery life is substantially extended in any design.

I'm afraid Newton works against you on this idea. You're trying to produce free energy. A generator converts kinetic energy into electrical energy. But since that kinetic energy is generated from the battery in the first place, you merely sap power from the battery which is then lost in things like heat.

The best you can have is a generator linked to the breaking system, wherein instead of using frictional force to stop the moving body, you use the work of the generator to lower the kinetic energy, thus bringing you to a stop while charging the battery. This is exactly the principle innovation of hybrid vehicles.

However, adding bells and whistles like dynamo generators takes up space, which is your most precious commodity in this particular design challenge.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-16-2007, 04:18 AM
Well I definitely don't assume that I could create unlimited power, I just saw it as a way to reclaim some of the power and recycle it by using a brushed dc motor as a generator. As for braking, the current idea for the design has mechanical braking via the motor and so uses energy instead of reclaims it =/ obviously counterproductive.

With current technology within the look and feel of Air Treks, so far as electrical motors are concerned I highly doubt that something which can pull you up hill without any human propulsion is possible - but something that uses the inertia generated by a little forward movement and supplements it to increase you to much faster speeds - I think might be - though in the end the numbers will out.

prismswordsman
07-16-2007, 09:59 AM
^^ Well, according to the company Steorn and their Orbos product, they've figured out a way to create infinite energy. Unfortunately, their demo this month failed due to "overheating".

Also, there is a company that is also designing electric skates. It is still in production, but the picture says it should be finished "soon". I can't remember the exact company though...

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 10:00 AM
You both have good points about the generator, but I'm afraid that
SunSurfAndAnime came fully prepared. I'm aware that using a generator will not give us unlimited energy, but merely recycle some of it. Much energy in the motor is lost to thermal and sound energy, therefore not all of the energy can be fully recycled. The generator can only give the rider a little extra time to ride.

The main concern in the electronics department for me, is the motor overheating and causing the components to break easier/quicker. To solve this, i suggest putting a small, energy efficient cooling fan near the motors on both AT's. It basically does the same job as a processor fan, or a system fan in your computer.

I think I've basically got the electronic part worked out, though when working with the AT's I may need to do some tinkering.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 10:06 AM
As far as I can tell the electric skates that you are referring to are seen here (http://www.aircoast.com/).....Also, infinite energy, I don't believe is possible considering every single joule of energy (thermal, potential, sound, light, kinetic) would have to be recycled. As far as I'm concerned, infinite energy is just a hope and dream of many physicists.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:11 AM
sunsurfandanime: i would try making it simpler. yeah ts noce to have all that and they might work like the real AT's, but think about practicality and space. do you really need a fancy braking system or a sensor in the shoe or in wheel motors? it all sounds fine a dandy, but what about the final price and product?
and battery life is are main problem here. thats why i was thinking Li ion batteries cause they last longer so maybe we could get a decent life span out of them. i like sunsurfandanimes generator idea, but i dont know if it would be fully practical or just a nuisance. and yeah, i know im personally drawing it on paper and working it out before i go out and buy stuff. i dont want to buy stuff and not start the project again.
pooru:we dont need a cpu for this kind of project, if we keep it simple. with my plans its pretty much just a motor, battery, speed control, and switch. nothing fany like sensors in the shoe or anything. keeps it nice ans simple and cheap(er). and for the grinding, you could use regular fiberglass like on the boby. you dont need metal so that theres a lot of sparks flying and a risk of people getting hurt.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 10:18 AM
once i get the styrofoam today and carve a model of the frame, what i think i'll do is just cut a little more into the styrofoam then cover it with wonderflex. after that i'll paint it and have a final cover of some sort of resin...

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:21 AM
infinite energy is just a hope and dream of many physicists.

kindave like world peace to politicians.
oh, and im scrapping my design and redoing it. i didnt like the final outcome or how everything was placed inside the drawing (praise the lord i drew it) and i have a list started of possible supplies and should have that up by this afternoon, so ill pm yall with that when im done. remember though, this is just a list of what ill be using, not a definitive list of what yall have to use. fell free to pm me yalls list if you have them.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 10:23 AM
dude i totally forgot to compile my list of parts...i'm gonna get started on that right now...thanks for reminding me dude!

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:26 AM
no problem. mines almost done, now i just have to find prices to get a rough estimate of the price. and do you have any pics of agitos treks? im thinking about basing my design off of his, but i need a reference pic.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 10:45 AM
Air Treck Parts List

-2 Gear Head Motor $23 each
-2 Pressure Sensative Switches (old PS2 controller)
-2 Large Gears $.80
-4 Rollerblade Wheels $10.00 (or from old pair of skates)
-2 Skate Boots $25 [(or taken from old skates) or old shoes]
-2 Lithium Ion Batteries $12 each
-4 Abec 7 bearings $20
-Styrofoam/Wonderflex (for frame) $20
Total Estimated Price=$110.80

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 10:47 AM
my bad...forgot to calculate that there were 2 lithium ion batteries and 2 gear head motors...

Total Estimate Price=$145.80

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:51 AM
not bad, but did you think of scooter wheels instead of roller blade wheels? theyre bigger, so theyre more realistic. and i know energizer sels AA Li ion batterys for four for $9 (i think, cant really remember to well). and what was the brand of the batteries you were gonna use? id like to check them out and get a look at their size to see if theyd work in my design.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 11:05 AM
i can get a pic...i'll pm it to u when i do

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 11:10 AM
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/3261/agito1cs4.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6951/agito2rq7.jpg
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/9408/agito3ym8.gif
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/8725/agito4ix3.gif
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/7486/agito5sd9.jpg

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 11:32 AM
thanks man.

oh, and heres my list so far. (no prices)
4-scooter wheels
aluminum square tubing
fiberglass cloth
resin
hardener
12-screws
1-motor
4-bolts
1-chain/pulley
4-6-Li ion batteries
1-rc car speed control
1-pressure sensitive switch
2-shoes (old etnies)
2-gears

thats about it so far. theyll probably will be more ill remember along the way or think of. but thats about it. oh, and im making one trek pwered and the ohter one just a trailing one like in the series.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 11:33 AM
cool...but make sure the one that's powered doesn't weigh too much more than the one that's not...try to make them the same by counterbalancing the non-powered AT...

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 11:35 AM
thats what i was thinking. im hoping that in the end these things weigh between 2-3 lbs and no more.

verdatum
07-16-2007, 12:12 PM
it's not about infinite energy, nor is it about 100% efficiency. You gain no benefit from putting a generator on the skates in this manner.

A generator takes work and turns it into electricity. This energy required to create this work must come from somewhere, and the only energy source is the battery. So now, instead of powering just the propulsion, the battery is also pushing the generator. Even with 100% efficiency in this energy conversion (which is effectively impossible) all you are doing is putting the same energy you took out of the battery immediately back into it, gaining ZERO energy savings. Why not just yank out the generator, and all energy can be sent to the wheels where you want it.

I'll bust out formal equasions if you guys want me to. Before taking a half-dozen semesters of phyiscs, I came up with these sort of ideas all the time. There is zero free energy. infinte or infintessimal.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 12:29 PM
what he was talking about was taking kinetic energy from the wheels moving and turining it into electrical energy to repower the battreies a little bit. in theroy, it makes sense, is it possible, like you said, probably not.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 12:44 PM
yea..i'm not sure...in other news..i found that making that section of the frame that contains the electronic parts, like the motor and stuff, is going to be difficult because it has to be comfortable and withstand impact so the parts aren't destroyed...

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 01:00 PM
thats why i was saying aluminum reinforced with fiberglass or carbon fiber and to make sure you triangulate it. (the riangle shape helps distribute force throughout each side) it shouldnt be to hard. what i was thinking was making the part the holds the electronics out of aluminum and triangulating it like crazy, then attaching it to a base the adding stryofoam to shape it, then covering it in fiberglass to reinforce it. if all works out it will become one solid piece where the wheels can be detatched for changing.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 01:19 PM
sounds sweet...i'm not sure if i have the capabilities to do all of that...if i sent you the styrofoam model i'm making, could you make reinforce it and all of that stuff? i'll pay u the costs...?

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 01:29 PM
ill have to see how mine comes out and if im really dedicated to doing it again. dont get me wrong, id love to help you, but if its too tedious and all, i wont want to do it again. wait till i finish mine and if youre not done, il lsee what i could do.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 01:33 PM
okay...i have an idea to do mine, but it's not as good as yours..if mine doesn't turn out too well, then i'll have you take a look at it..if you're willing...gosh, i can't wait for all of this to happen..i can't wait for it to be a big sport with little specialty AT shops, knowing that this is where it all started...lol..this is sooo cool!

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 01:57 PM
so whats your idea on how to do it?

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 02:20 PM
shape it out of styrofoam. cut part of it in. cover with wonderflex. insert foam to protect equipment. (the part that contains the electronics is also gonna be removable)

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 02:28 PM
might work. but if theres too much foam, the electronics will over heat. so be careful of that. and i wasnt gonna make my electroics "rack" removable. i was running into problems with making it removable woth my design, so i decided to make it one solid structure. i hope my idea works though. and i have a quick question, how do you plan to rig you pressure sensitive switch for you acceleration? im trying to figure mine out, but i dont know how i wanna do it. oh, and i forgot to to put an on/off switch onto my list, its gonna be mounted on the outside in the frame so that its easily accesible but wont get knocked off if i hit something.

NiceGai44
07-16-2007, 02:31 PM
oh cool I would actually love to by some in the near future since I got my spitifre cosplay once I know they were safe. I can see these happening in the future.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 02:32 PM
well i have button mounts from little mcdonalds toys that i took apart...(i'd be happy to send you some) and the pressure sensitive button itself just goes right onto the mount...wire the mount to the battery and you have a switch...

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 02:59 PM
so its just a button? thats easy to find. i wonder if the buttons on my old xbox controller would work.
and yeah, it would be good to have these for cosplays, and yes, we have to make sure theyre safe, if my pair ends up not being safe, im not wearing them till they are.
oh, and with the button, im thinking about putting it in the shoe and having a little port for wires in the sole so i can just plug in the wires before i put on the trek. what do you think?

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 03:02 PM
sounds good...you can get little things that the wire go in so u don't have to twist them every time...u can just plug them in...

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 03:04 PM
thats what i was thinking. little connectors so that its just plug and play.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 03:08 PM
yea...my little bro just got out his XMod and I'm thinking of using an XMod motor for the AT's...they have pretty good speed considering those little boogers can get up to about 50 mph and the speed can be changed into torque.......

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 03:30 PM
i have one of those two. and the fastest we were able to get in my old neighborhood was about 20 mph. they got some good speed, but think about how small they are, that motor will probably push you around at a slow speed, but it wont even move if i got on it.
and i just finished my agito based treks. im pretty happy with this design, i think this is the one i might end up building.

ningyobaka
07-16-2007, 03:32 PM
http://www.skatelog.com/skates/motorized/

i knew i had seen motorized skates before. http://www.motoboard.com/

they don't look liek air treks but they work. a kid in oklahoma had a pair. he lived a few blocks away.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 03:41 PM
i did some reserch before starting this and i checked those out. they just dont excite me. i mean, all they are are a pair of rollerblades with a weed whacker engine on them. i could make a pair of those in my garage in no time and it wouldnt cost me $700 either. i dont know, to me these seem more like fun. plus i feel like im helping the enviroment cause theyre electric instead of gasoline powered.

ningyobaka
07-16-2007, 04:01 PM
to make the electric your still gonna be polluting. and when i was thinking of making my airtreks this is what i thought about. strapping a motor to the back of my modified rollerblades.

it's one easier and two me a bit more safer since it's been done. i know this works, and a little less likely i'm gonna kill myself. from it exploding due to builing error. though an engine on roller blades isn't really safe no matter what. and my dad helping me with this project (or me being able to do it infront of him) is a no go on my side. i've broke both my wrists one was on skates so dad isn't about to let me strap a motor to mine.

though if anyoen gets an engine working taht's under your feet and it works safely. make sure you patent it. though i would highly suggest the hand controls to any foot controls. cause you shift your wieght and foting to keep your balance while skating.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 04:06 PM
electric motrs dont polute our enviroment. and thats why were using one foot control, so that we dont have to worry about confusion or anything. or so thats the reason im using them.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 04:11 PM
firstly, tell me how the electric skate is polluting? secondly, i use to aggressive inline skate, so i don't know where you're coming from having to shift weight to balance. any good skater would also know that to go forward you naturally have to lean forward when you skate, so leaning forward to start it would only make sense. if u mean by just fiddling with your toes you would take off, i'm not worried, because i wouldn't make them near that sensative...

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 05:03 PM
i wasnt thinking that sensitive either. i was just thinking enough that i had to put about 5 lbs or so of force on it to make a connection. so fiddling my toes wouldnt be enough to make it move unexpectaetly. and like i said, electric motors dont pollute, thats why hybrids are better than regular cars and a lot of companies are experimenting with battery operated cars.

prismswordsman
07-16-2007, 05:17 PM
At this point, I would seriously consider doing alot of paper calculations. You don't want to waste money on materials by just trying "till it's right".

SunSurfAndAnime
07-16-2007, 05:35 PM
You're right, and the idea of this thread was creating Air Treck style working motorized skates so electric is part of the paradigm as is so gas or other styles of propulsion are a moot point.

To be clear, if we are going to passingly comment on pollution both of you have a valid stance.

In Q-tron and Chris-chan's case the final product is zero-impact once complete - that is, it creates zero-emissions and if a production model ever was created that did incorporate the luxury of the generator than, when under complete human power (motors are off) it would be possible to charge the batteries without drawing any power off the grid (which is sourced majorly from coal, gas, and nuclear power) thus being completely pollution free.

In ningyobaka case, the production of the skates - especially in the case of using a li ion battery - has several polluting factors. Whether prototypes made in a garage or mass production models, the creation and especially the refining of the materials used in production are environmentally damaging. For instance, the mining, refining, and molding of metals strips the earth, creates very toxic pollutants during refining, and uses large amounts of limited fuels (gasoline, diesel and coal) in the vehicles used to mine and transport it as well as every factory from there on. These examples hold true in the production of any single piece of the product. Lastly, li ion batteries, once completely depleted (unchargable), even if they are sent back to be refurbished and renewed (which creates pollutants anyway), eventually reach a point where they can no longer hold power or be recycled further and the chemicals in the battery take a very long time to break down during which time they are poisoning the earth (since they usually end up in landfills - actual or glorified in "hazardous waste depots" which aren't much better). Still, this can be said for almost any battery currently on the market.

Really, the point is, that with a high-tech item like this, there is no way to avoid environmental degradation in some form even if you practice environmental economics to the best of your ability.

In the simple matter of the finished product itself though, an electric motor creates much less pollution then any combustion engine in both gaseous and heat emissions.

So can we call that debate done?

SunSurfAndAnime
07-16-2007, 05:36 PM
So, now that that's been covered:

Chris-chan, you said you've been drawing up plans, would you be willing to share some of your preliminary plans and calculations?

edit: and congratulations on your 200th post

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 05:49 PM
whoot! 200! didnt even notice i had that many!

right now theyre just drawings and measurements of the size. i dont know how to use my scanner, so i cant scan them in, and i dont want to use a camera, so i cant put them up. sorry. i can tell you a few of the measurements though. first off, im using a size 11 1/2 etnie, so the length came out to just under 12" for the shoe itself. pretty much my whole frame is 12" long by 7" high (with wheels, 8" with wheels and shoe inside). im making the track area that holds the wheels and the electronics about 3" wide by 12" long. i have a one inch space between the sole sole of the shoe (im gonna call it the base) and the top of the wheel. my design has a slight resemblence to agitos, but not exact. thats pretty much it. if you would like more info, feel free to ask.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 05:58 PM
Okay guys.I just got back from Walmart and I have the styrofoam I need to carve a model of my frame. Unexpectedly, I had to buy two blocks of styrofoam because they didn't have any that were big enough for what I needed to do. Therefore, I have to glue them and will not get started carving until tomorrow. Hopefully I will be finished by tomorrow evening and can post some pictures of what I have.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 06:04 PM
im getting mine on wednesday. since ill be down in the mall area for a job interview, i figured id stop by maichaels and pick up a block. also, im gonna go to radioshack and talk to the guy working there to see if he can help with finding the right parts. and good luck on carving yours. remember, if you use a hot wire, it goes a lot quicker. and i cant wait to see the pics.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 06:54 PM
I think carving's going to be very tricky. I have a hot wire to use but I don't want to mess up. You can always cut off more but you can't put it back on. I'll probably use my brothers modeling exacto knife so I can get it just the way I want it. Tomorrow's going to be a very looong day.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 06:58 PM
youre right, you can always cut off less, but you cant put it back on. and yeah, its gonna be a long day. oh, and i just finished air gear, wont say anything about the ending. gonna start chrono crusade tomorrow, along with finalizing (i hope) my "blueprints". and you could always use sandpaper too. just a little thought.

prismswordsman
07-16-2007, 07:02 PM
^^ The Air Gear anime only goes through a small portion of the story. The manga still is being made weekly, and you actually see the skill of the more advanced riders.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 07:04 PM
i heard that they were stil coming out. how many are there? if theres not too many maybe ill start buying them.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 07:39 PM
I'd like to buy the manga so I could use it for reference pictures.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 07:45 PM
that too. ut usually the manga is better than the anime. plus, you get to give your voice to the character instead of hearing someone elses (i usually get upset when i read a manga and the character looks like he might have a high voice, and they get a person with a low voice to play them and vice versa).

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 07:49 PM
yea...it gives you better imagination so the show turns out the way YOU want it...not the directors look on it..

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 07:53 PM
yep. always better that way. but it can get pretty expensive to buy a whole series. but i need to start a new one anyway.

prismswordsman
07-16-2007, 07:56 PM
^^ You can find manga scans online. Currently, there are around 160 chapters released. The anime stops at around chapter 100.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 08:13 PM
alright, i just found this motor for rc cars. its a 19 turn motor with quad magnets. its going for about $40. heres the link. http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFBH5&P=7
do yall think this will be strong enough?

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 08:16 PM
sweet...the glue for the styrofoam isn't drying!!!I'm sooo mad!

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 08:22 PM
thats not cool.
i just ran into a snag with my design. i went to go draw in the motor which im estimating to be close to three inches cause all the others were, but my bottom frame is only three inches which means there is very little play room, plus if i add a chain or pulley, it might be seen from the side which means it could get damaged. im wondering if i could run two pulleys, one that connects to a shaft that has another gear on it that connects to the wheel. would that work with still giving me the torque i need?

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 08:41 PM
yea...as long as the starting gear and the ending gear have a large difference in teeth, the gear ratio should stay the same..

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 08:56 PM
alright, thanks. and i talked with my dad about the quad magnet motor and he said that all quad magnets do is keep it wanting to head in the same direction, so its pretty much just gonna be more reliable and not really faster or have higher torque.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 09:15 PM
I think I'm gonna stick with gear head motors. That quad thing is expensive.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 09:38 PM
its a little bit more expensive, but im with you. im gonna stick with regular dual magnets. im still thinking about doing a rc car motor though. oh, and i just finished my frame layout and i figured i could easily stick 10 or so AA batteries underneath my trek and still have room for two motors if i wanted them. and i finished my schematic. i didnt take into account resistors or capcitator, so i should probably go back and see if i need to add those, but its pretty simple. ill try making one on paint and posting it on photobucket to give you a pic of my layout.

Q-Tron
07-16-2007, 09:46 PM
cool...i don't think you'll need any resistors or capacitors unless you're making a switch..for a switch i wouldn't worry, just buy one at radioshack....

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:05 PM
i decided to add a resistor, but after the pic was done, i figured i didnt need it. so, heres the pic! i decided to use 9 volt batteries instead of AA. i dont want to link a bunch of AA's together for power when i could link them together for length of time. so, here it is!
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/mew_mewaddict/?action=view&current=airtrekschematic.jpg

Pooru
07-16-2007, 10:14 PM
engine on the boot = more weight = bad unreliable

all im gonna say is watch theanime

the explination of where the power comes from is RIGHT THERE

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:15 PM
yeah, its in the wheel, but there isnt any motors avaiable small enough to fit inside a wheel and not have to worry about the wires. if you know any, feel free to post them.

Pooru
07-16-2007, 10:21 PM
tchh nevermindd youhave the answers right there and im not even kidding XD

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:24 PM
o.O i cant tell if youre being sarcastic or youre telling is weve got it figured out.

chris-chan
07-16-2007, 10:37 PM
i just found a battery that just might work, i just dont know how much they cost each yet. its a laptop battery. some of them are Li ion and they fit perfectly into my design. it has the right dimensions and everything.

scratch that, theyre going for about $140 a piece.

Fullmetal
07-16-2007, 11:28 PM
Just throwing this out there even IF you can make a pair of AT's they are useless for cosplay unless they are clsoe to the At's in the series. If you make something that can go with a battery, but they look bad there is no point of making them in the first place. Even normal rollerblades would be better.

Lei-yone
07-17-2007, 01:02 AM
All I can say is after all this thought you guys are puttin into this idea, if you really do put it together I hope you take pictures. I'm a fan of Air Gear as well and I'm curious as of how a real Air Trak would look like.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 03:08 AM
just as an addendum to all the information y'all are putting together:

The fictional regular type ATs run around 50 mph ;)

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 09:00 AM
okay. I'm back from a good nights sleep. I looked at the schematic, and I'm not an engineer so I really don't understand it. Maybe my dad can help me when he gets home.

spanner
07-17-2007, 09:58 AM
Holy crap this thread got big in a short time. You guys have some really good ideas going on here... I've got some inspiration to actually perhaps try something like this for a con late this year.

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 10:05 AM
yea..i never thought it would get more than a page..nobody posted on it for like a week after i started it!

NiceGai44
07-17-2007, 10:07 AM
You guys def gonna have to post up pics and what not. I am a big fan of the manga and its awesome. So this really sparked my interest.

spanner
07-17-2007, 10:49 AM
yea..i never thought it would get more than a page..nobody posted on it for like a week after i started it!

Totally glad you did start it though. There's some real creative people on here. Looking forward to attempting something at the very least.

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 10:59 AM
Cool! If you read through the posts between me and Chris-Chan you should get a good idea of how we planned on making it.

spanner
07-17-2007, 11:08 AM
Yeah I've been lurking it and trying to recall my small amount of technical knowledge I learned years ago in 7th grade industrial tech.

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 11:10 AM
lol..we didn't learn much in IT...we made rockets and t-shirts and stuff..it was fun!

spanner
07-17-2007, 11:43 AM
Oh wow... we actually made light lightboards and did a lot of electric work... which was fun because I didn't like the wood-working aspect of it. So anyway, hopefully I can get by with some electrial knowledge... albeit it on a 7th grade level ROFL

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 11:49 AM
I've done that in my own time. We didn't get to do anything that really required work in Industrial Tech.

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 01:13 PM
wow, i fall asleep and it gets another page long.

and yeah, the top speed on a pair in the anime or manga are about 48 mph/80 kmh, so i know we cant get them that fast. and fullmetal, ive been designing mine around agitos/akitos so mine look a bit like the ones from the series, but due to copywright reasons, there are a few diffrences. plus im thinking about doing one of the skull saders for a cosplay and they all have a diffrent pair, so you really couldnt tell the diffrence.

and i think i found the battery im gonna use. (yes, i know ive posted a lot of diffrent types, but this ones the one im gonna use for sure, unless i find something better) its 9 volt NiMH batteries by energizer. theyre going for $9-$10 a piece, but can be recharged up to 1000 times and give me the voltage i need for the motor. and also cause of their size, they fit into my design in an area that wont be seen by people and also are pretty light weight. i was thinking about connecting wires so that when i plug in the batteries, they work as one big 9 volt battery, but with a longer lifespan.
oh, and since tomorrow i have the job interview in the mall area of town, im gonna stop by radioshack and michaels to get some info on batteries and motors and to pick up a piece of foam big enough, then go to the tower hobbies store (rc car store, really big) and talk to them about a rc car motor that within my budget, but also has enough power and torque to get me moving.
and one more thing, i was thinking about doing a little web diary once i get going on my progress. that way, yall can see how everything is set up, and how it all works.

spanner
07-17-2007, 01:16 PM
Good luck on your job interview chris-chan and yesss please post progress... that would be a big help~ and be pretty interesting

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 01:18 PM
thanks. and ill try to, once i start getting the stuff together. still have to get the money to buy the stuff, but enough that i wont be broke for afo. (so far i got a littl over $100 saved up for afo)

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 02:11 PM
you should have enough...btw, where is AFO? i've heard of it, but never knew where it was...

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 02:27 PM
AFO stands for Anime Festivlal Orlando. and im trying to get a good amount of money so i can go buy crazy. but im gonna try to keep some left over for this project. so hows your model coming along? you gonna post pics when its done?

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 03:02 PM
actually i'm about to post a pic in like 5 minutes...i haven't started to carve yet because i want to use a hotwire and my dad's not here so i don't know how...i drew out the first stage that i'm carving and i'm gonna post a pic of that...

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 03:11 PM
alright sounds cool. and using a hot wire isnt hard. you just heat up a regular wire and cut through the styrofoam. it goes through real easily though, so be careful.

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 03:11 PM
http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q246/shortie_210/Air%20Trecks/?action=view&current=DSCF0220.jpg

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 03:17 PM
wasnt what i was expecting (i was expecting two pieces of white styrofoam glued one on top the other, but whatever). so what ya gonna do about the shoe part? all you got is the frame so far?

Pooru
07-17-2007, 03:17 PM
too small q tron

chris chan as for copyright laws technically cosplayers are in violation of copyright laws but since its a fanbased thing not used for commercial purposes they're on in breach of that soo you can model it all you want to agitos but i still think your designs are going to be heavily flawed just the way you type it out it wont necessarily be deemed effcient...at least by my standards

once i publish an authenticated patent for my base idea I'll post it until them I'm very unsure

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 03:20 PM
The frame to me is the most important part because it consists of the all the electronics, the wheels, and the support for the skate. The boot will screw onto the top of the frame just like a regular aggressive skate. I'm still not sure how to make the boot yet, but that's further on down the road.

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 03:21 PM
Oh yea. They didn't have white at Walmart, which disappointed me. All they had was green.

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 03:23 PM
thanks for the info on copywright laws and all. and how do you think its gonna be flawed? it would be nice to know where i expect to find a problem so that i can change it and not worry about running into that problem.

and yeha, the frame is the most important piece in my eyes too.

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 04:41 PM
i didn't see a flaw in the design u had...mine's a little different tho...:]]

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 05:11 PM
i dont see a flaw in mine either. ive personally gone through and checked everything out on paper and mentally. of course, i dont know if the motors gonna power me and all, but ive tooken as much as i can into thought. but, pooru says there is one so i guess i should go back and recheck everything.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 06:05 PM
Doing some quick math:

With 4 inch tires and a gear step of 0.5

at a top speed of 25MPH for a total load of 220LBs and 1000RPM which is the top end I could find on any miniature motor (RC motors etc) - there is a required torque of 1.4090287416498 lb/Ft

Have fun with the different calculators here: link (http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepower/horsepower_equation_rotating_torque.php)
and I used this for RPM vs Tire and Gear step calculations: Link (http://www.btc-bci.com/~billben/rpmtire.htm)

For reference I calculated Horsepower using weight and speed, then converted horsepower to torque using 1000 RPM

Q-Tron
07-17-2007, 06:07 PM
the gear step would most likely be around 0.25

prismswordsman
07-17-2007, 06:36 PM
I once made a design for a geared skate. It had a gear ratio of 1:4 and produced a torque of about 2.0 Nm. It relied on body weight instead of motors = /.

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 06:58 PM
wow, thats not a lot of torque. but im not looking to get 25 mph out of mine. hell, id be happy with about 10-12 mph. thanks for the math though. i think ill check that calculator out.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 07:00 PM
Its not so much that Im looking to hit top speeds, as it is that, at the very least Id like to see these things take a person uphill at least as well as in the first episode

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 07:04 PM
good point. so do you think they make a motor small enough that puts out about 1.41 lb/ft? like i said, ill go to tower hobbies tomorrow and ask them to see what they think. oh, and those calculators were getting confusing.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 07:08 PM
I know that there is at least some motors that put out the RPMs needed and also even though it was expensive that 4 magnet one is going to produce a lot more power then the two so keep that in mind - you can actually see that the fictional design shows what looks to be a 6 magnet motor which makes sense.

I don't know if any can manage that torque truthfully, but like Q-tron has been saying, you can always convert speed into torque - I wish there was some easy way to build a miniature kind of automatic-transmission assembly XD

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 07:33 PM
that automatic transmission would definetley come in handy. maybe you should check rc car products. i know they have transmissions, but i dont know if they have them for electric motors.(oh, and the tesla produced in the silicone valley has a 2-speed manual transmission)
and yeah, i havent put that quad magnet one out of my mind yet. it may be $40 each, but all i need is really one, and if i need more, than ill add more.
and this may sound stupid, but how are we supposed to convert speed into torque?

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 07:43 PM
if you use gears you can gain more torque but lose speed - like a transmission does when you change gears.

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 07:47 PM
huh, never thought of that. so ill pretty much just need two gears, one connected to the motor and one connected to the wheel, right?

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 07:57 PM
yeah

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 08:00 PM
alright, thanks.
and you havent posted how yours is coming along. do you have a list of parts as well?

SunSurfAndAnime
07-17-2007, 08:22 PM
I took 6 summer semester credits - I've been doing my finals work for those

On top of that I've had work and since it's summer - way too many invites to everything so I've been extremely busy.

I haven't started and I'm not sure when and if I will start. The concept, plans, everything like that are easy but the time, money and dedication invested in making a project like this - I don't have it right now. Not always easy being an adult =P heh

chris-chan
07-17-2007, 08:28 PM
hell, im thankful im still in my teens! (16 right now, 17 next month). and i dont have a job, yet. for some reason no one wants to hire me. but, i see where youre coming from. with it being summer, its real difficult to get a lot of stuff done. i hope you get some of your ideas off of paper and into a product cause some of them sounded pretty good. good luck though!

chris-chan
07-18-2007, 08:38 PM
alright, i went to tower hobbies today, and i got a few prices from them. they told me that the motor i should think about getting comes with a speed control, and supposedly ill need that, and the price is $280, and i also got told about a battery called a lithium polyester battery, which they highly suggested, and they said they will be $100 each and ill need two, and that will only give me ten minutes of charge, but ill supposedly be able to get up to 20 mph with the equipment they sugested and if i gear it down, which they also said ill need some sort of rc car transmission. always, they suggested nitro and said itd be a lot cheaper and would give me the torque and power to get moving at a good speed. also, i got my foam today that i have to glue together to make a cube, so ill do that tomorrow.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 11:57 AM
sounds like this is going to be more expensive than i thought...i haven't started to care yet, because i really don't wanna mess up and i'm not sure how to go about doing it..i'll go to my aunts this weekend so she can help me...she always has good ideas, and she helped me make my Quaffel...yay quidditch!

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 01:20 PM
im seriously thinking about doing a nitro powered one instead, or a non-powered pair. i would love to make a electric pair, but i really dont have the money, and im not to happy about the run time. i found out about a electric skateboard that lasts for an hour (it was at the hobby store) and the battery was huge! you pretty much need a backpack to carry it along with the motor. im still working on plans for an electric one just in case it becomes possible one day, i can say i was one of the first to come up with the idea.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 01:22 PM
i'm not gonna lose my doubts...even if i have to put hundreds of dollars into it, i'm goin to do it...

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 01:23 PM
right now i'm figuring the boot out...i'm buying actual rollerblade soul plates and grind blocks...

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 01:30 PM
btw...how would the nitro work?

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 01:34 PM
well, the engine runs off of nitromethane (they just call it nitro). pretty much its like a regular engine. you put it on the boot, put a gear on the shaft and the wheel and pretty much connect them together. you start up the engine and just go. oh, and youll have to fill up the tank with fuel, but i found one thats small enough to fit into my design. itd be a lot cheaper too. the engines go from $80 to about $300 or so, so it all depends on the motor you pick.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 01:36 PM
that sounds cool...i'm thinking about doing that now...as long as it looks like a regular AT then it's cool by me...wouldn't it overheat though?

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 01:42 PM
well, i was gonna have my engine half sticking out or so, that way i can insert the glow starter and pull start it with no problem. also, im thining the rushing air would help it cool down. and it would overheat if you didnt have some way to cool it down getting to it.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 01:44 PM
what about the exhaust? how would u filter that out of the skate? and how long would it last?

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 01:47 PM
i dont know about how long it would last, but i do know it would last longer than electric. and as for exhaust, im still working on that. originally i was gonna put the exhast comming out the bottom, but then i though about if i ever wanted to do triks with these, that might serve a problem. so, right now im thinking about having it come out the side, but thats still debatable.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 01:50 PM
would this (http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLW81&P=7) do the job for me?

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 01:57 PM
i couldnt tell ya. im personally looking at something like this http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXHTN2&P=0 or this http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXFYN7&P=0 . (i dont know how to do the coding thing) im thinking more of the hpi, cause ive heard hpi has some of the best stuff, and its cheaper.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:00 PM
the coding is simple...just do advanced, add link (the little globe thing) and type this or here, (or w/e u desire) it automatically highlights the part that needs to be changed...

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:00 PM
i'm putting a motor in each skate, so i probably don't need the $90 or $100 ones

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 02:07 PM
good point. but you also need something that will power you. if you have a hobby shop like hobbytown near you, go ask them. (it turns out the lace near me is called hobbytown and not tower hobbie) i went in and told them i have apretty weird question, and i asked about the electric motor strong enough, and they just stared at me. i kept telling them i told them i had a weird question.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:09 PM
we have a place, but i'm not sure if it would have electric motors...they have some really powerful r/c stuff that get those things up to like 75mph

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:10 PM
12345

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 02:11 PM
yeah, the electric one they told me about could get some of their biggest models up to about 40 mph, and those were some big trucks. so yeah, they can go pretty fast, but im gonna gear mine down to put it at a safe speed like 20 mph (if i can even get it to go that fast).

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:15 PM
i only wanna go about 10-15 mph...20 is too fast for my likings..(considering i can't even run that fast) lol

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 02:18 PM
hell, i cant even run a steady 5 mph. (i think). the fastest i can bike is close to 20 mph. last time i checked which wa about 4 years ago, on a huffy mountain bike starting out in sixth gear, i was able to do a steady 17 mph. it took me a while to get there cause i didnt know i had to downshift, but my uncle recorded it on his ATV driving right next to me. so, 20 mph is good for me, plus i can get up a hill if need be.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:23 PM
well i'm worried about torque..i wanna use them at the skatepark in my hometown, so i need torque up the butt..(but not really...ewwwww)

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 02:28 PM
i just got done checking out the motosk8's, and they say that the motor they use has 1.5 hp@8,000 RPM, and the hpi engine has 1.2 hp@29,000 RPM, so i think itll work out. nad im thinking about using these around the neighberhood, or maybe if theyre allowed, on the college campus (gonna be at the community college next year!) and maybe just to have fun qwith, but not at a skatepark.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:34 PM
also just wanted to use them for transportation...cuz i hate walking, and i don't have a bike...

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 02:41 PM
i hate walking too. and i use my dads bike.
and i found this motor http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXRYV3&P=0. if it wasnt so tall, id use it (look at the amount of horsepower!)

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 02:58 PM
gosh, that's powerful...y don't u just lay it over on it's side?

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 03:04 PM
cause then ill need to find a way to hook it up to the wheel. what im thinking about doing is buying a cheap RTR and ripping it apart for parts, after i play with it a little that is. unless buying all the parts seperately is cheaper.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 04:57 PM
if ur using gears it would be the same...from this (http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2097/uprightvt3.jpg) to this (http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/9616/layingdownhl5.jpg)

prismswordsman
07-19-2007, 05:23 PM
If you're going to be using an actual gas motor, why don't you the motor skates that are already made by a company?

SunSurfAndAnime
07-19-2007, 05:53 PM
If you're going to be using an actual gas motor, why don't you just buy the one that already exists?

Because they are using nitro motors that fits inside the design. The key difference in all these designs is that they are attempting to conform to the style of Air Trecks from the Air Gear anime.

The gas powered inlines already in production neither conform to the style or attempt to follow any of the basic functionality. In a perfect world the final product from this project would incorporate:

A two wheel skate (with wheels on average the size of scooter wheels)
An attached boot with clean lines (no large clunky motor visible coming off the back)
A control apparatus in some form in the boot itself instead of a hand or other type of control
A comfortable top speed with the ability to push someone up a small to medium incline at some type of nominal speed without human help

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 06:04 PM
exactly...the ones already made a bulky, and look nothing like Air Trecks...

prismswordsman
07-19-2007, 06:15 PM
I wasn't previously aware of how small nitro engines were. Still, with such an advantage it must come with a heavy price. For one, it seems the motor will take up the bulk of the skate, leaving nearly no room for significant amounts of fuel. Secondly, the average lifespan of nitro engines (from what I can tell) is very short... only between 5-12 gallons of fuel, if you give proper maintenance.

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 06:24 PM
they aren't that big, or that expensive...

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 06:33 PM
i think theyre lifespans longer than ten gallons of fuel. i have to go back and check on that. and i was thinking about putting a little platform behind my trek (yes, it kindave takes away form the trek design) and ill have the tank underneath the trek. i actually found a nitro powered car on ebay for a little over $40 and if i remember correctly it has a .28 engine. unfortunaelty, the shipping is something like $30. oh, and i was thinking about using a pistol grip so that that way i can control my speed better along with braking.

chris-chan
07-19-2007, 06:34 PM
the biggest ones i saw were about 4.5" tall. so yeah, theyre pretty small. (that one also had 3.5 hp)

Q-Tron
07-19-2007, 06:50 PM
yea exactly...

chris-chan
07-20-2007, 06:08 PM
i think im gonna put my main part out of a pair of old skates that im gonna pick up from play it again sports. that way i have good ankle protection and a cheap base. still gonna use a nitro engine though.

chris-chan
07-23-2007, 08:13 PM
alright, i went to play it again sports today (wonderful place by the way. been there a few times, great deals) and found the perfect pair of skates to use for the projesct. they were a pair of salomon (think i spelt that right) and were awesome! felt wonderful looked great, looked like something a stormrider would alter for air treks. unfortunaetly, they were $60, but if i went to a online store or a sports store and bought them new, they would be about $120 (i went to sports authority and found a pair almost identical), so they were more reasonable priced. dont know how much longer theyll be at there though, so i hope i hurry up and get some money to buy them soon. but, i figured id just give everybody an update as to how im coming along so far.

izzymaru
07-25-2007, 08:28 PM
hi im new as in i have no clue what im doing for the air trecks
so can some one walk my threw the steps of makeing one ?
so just send my a private message or add me to AIM or msn messenger
mt AIM screen name is takoon4
my msn messenger email is copycatninja@hotmail.com

chris-chan
07-26-2007, 05:33 PM
if you read through all the posts we made, youll get a good idea on how we plan on doing it. welcome to the site by the way, but please read before you post. (even reading a few by one of us would probably help)

Q-Tron
07-26-2007, 09:37 PM
wow, haven't been on this site in a while...for now, i'm gathering used parts from skates i already have...took out some wheels and axles of old skates! i also am gonna buy some cheap, used skates for the base...after that, i go to my aunts to customize the frames for the motors, gears, and what not...then hook it all up, and tweak it to the way i want it...shouldn't be done for about a month though

izzymaru
07-27-2007, 03:30 AM
oh and u can often find small engins and midofy them for more power
at radioshak
hope it helps
im not trying to make my AT's look like ikki's
and how do u get skates that are only on 2 wheels
???
do i have to make them ?

prismswordsman
07-27-2007, 07:51 AM
^^ It should be fairly obvious what you need to do. Read the posts...

SushiKuroneko
07-27-2007, 12:49 PM
instead of actually going through the pains of making actual ones, although that'd be really cool. And the pain of getting yelled at by con staff while wearing these...and having to them take them off.

You might want to consider buying some "Kick Rollers" they're pretty much like wheelies here, just with for wheels and so much mor ehigh tech. They're the closest you an get to the Air Gear shoes without having to make them...besides, they double as actual shoes too.

chris-chan
07-27-2007, 05:17 PM
oh and u can often find small engins and midofy them for more power
at radioshak
hope it helps
im not trying to make my AT's look like ikki's
and how do u get skates that are only on 2 wheels
???
do i have to make them ?

the ones from radioshack wont be good enough, ive already checked them out. wont have the power output you need even after you gear them, thats why im saying rc car motors, way better. and yeah, youll have to make a frame and all so that the skates are two wheeled instead of four, but weve already discussed that in the posts.

sushikuroneko: i think i know what youre talking about, i think i saw them at sports authority, and they dont have any my size, not like id want a pair though.

izzymaru
07-27-2007, 07:10 PM
what type of engin should i use since im a beginner
cuz i dont wanna blow off my ankels
lol

SunSurfAndAnime
07-27-2007, 08:38 PM
what type of engin should i use since im a beginner
cuz i dont wanna blow off my ankels
lolIzzymaru, I understand that you are a beginner and are looking for help to create airtrecks.

None the less, this is a discussion thread, not a tutorial thread.

Further, Q-tron began this thread as a discussion on creating working ATs, not props - if you are looking to make those then use source images from the anime and manga - all available via simple Google searches - and modify a pair of skates yourself. You should be able to find two wheel skates already made which will only require some aesthetic modifications.

We haven't even created a working prototype yet. If you would like, all our discussion is available and you are welcome to go back and read what we have thought up but we can not provide a tutorial, if only for the simple reason that we don't know exactly how to make a pair yet either!

Lastly, I would ask that you do your best to use proper spelling and grammar including completely spelling full words such as "cause" instead of "cuz".

I wish you the best of luck on your AT designs and hope that you have had the sense and patience to read through this entire post.

izzymaru
07-27-2007, 08:41 PM
ok.

chris-chan
07-28-2007, 08:14 PM
Izzymaru, I understand that you are a beginner and are looking for help to create airtrecks.

None the less, this is a discussion thread, not a tutorial thread.

Further, Q-tron began this thread as a discussion on creating working ATs, not props - if you are looking to make those then use source images from the anime and manga - all available via simple Google searches - and modify a pair of skates yourself. You should be able to find two wheel skates already made which will only require some aesthetic modifications.

We haven't even created a working prototype yet. If you would like, all our discussion is available and you are welcome to go back and read what we have thought up but we can not provide a tutorial, if only for the simple reason that we don't know exactly how to make a pair yet either!

Lastly, I would ask that you do your best to use proper spelling and grammar including completely spelling full words such as "cause" instead of "cuz".

I wish you the best of luck on your AT designs and hope that you have had the sense and patience to read through this entire post.

nicely put sunsurfandanime.

Satoshi-sama
07-29-2007, 01:24 AM
Well, moving back to the actual creation. Does anyone know how those batteryless flashlights work? How when you shake them up and down a piece of metal has it's electrons scraped and it goes through a long process of creating electricity which turns on the light? Well what if you could somehow incorporate this into the real version of an AT. That way the real AT would be constantly generating it's own supply of energy just by moving. If you don't understand, let me explain. There could be some contraption that is connected to the wheels so that when they turn, they cause a metal strip to have it's electrons removed and eventually created into electricity which in turns moves the motor which in turn turns the wheels, starting the cycle all over again. Of course you'd have to give it an initial push or something which could either be done manually like the way you use skates today, or you could incorporate a rechargeable battery that could be also be recharged by the electricity being made by the stripped electrons.

Sorry if that didn't make any sense. If you don't understand it I can easily explain it better. ;]

SunSurfAndAnime
07-29-2007, 02:50 AM
Satoshi-sama, it's a good thought but using a motor as a generator on one of the wheels would be more efficient then a magnetic slider like in the flashlights - and from your description it sounds like thats basically what you really meant.

Most of the preliminary electric designs on the first few pages contain some type of rechargeable battery like a Lithium Ion or other type of openly available battery and while being able to recharge it on the go is a good idea, we had decided that a working prototype is important first and then being able to charge on the go would be more of a luxury item later.

As a note, if you do some research on brushed dc motor generators, the slider inside of the flashlights work on the same exact principle and are exactly what you are describing.

prismswordsman
07-29-2007, 12:58 PM
As another poster said before, incorporating a system to recharge the batteries as you skate would not work, at least if you planned to recharge them while using the motors. The energy that should be used to move the skater would instead be looped back into the skate, making it fairly pointless. It's like sitting in a car and trying to make the car move forward by physically pushing against the steering wheel... it doesn't provide any net advantage. This concept really only works with braking, or if the skater uses his muscles to skate and recharge the batteries.

SunSurfAndAnime
07-29-2007, 01:15 PM
As another poster said before, incorporating a system to recharge the batteries as you skate would not work, at least if you planned to recharge them while using the motors. The energy that should be used to move the skater would instead be looped back into the skate, making it fairly pointless. It's like sitting in a car and trying to make the car move forward by physically pushing against the steering wheel... it doesn't provide any net advantage. This concept really only works with braking, or if the skater uses his muscles to skate and recharge the batteries.Not to come off as an idiot, cause if you explain the science and math I'll get it but if you have a motor on one wheel propelling and another on the other wheel generating power then, though it's obviously not going to be equal, won't it still prolong the life of the battery by using the wasted energy off the front wheel spinning to produce a bit extra battery life?

Q-Tron
07-29-2007, 01:27 PM
I agree with SunSurfAndAnime. You might not be able to collect all energy, but can't some of it still be recycled?

Also, the generator wouldn't be the only source of power for the motor.

prismswordsman
07-29-2007, 03:24 PM
Not to come off as an idiot, cause if you explain the science and math I'll get it but if you have a motor on one wheel propelling and another on the other wheel generating power then, though it's obviously not going to be equal, won't it still prolong the life of the battery by using the wasted energy off the front wheel spinning to produce a bit extra battery life?The only wheel generating the power is the one with the motor. However, the "generator wheel" will just absorb that energy and turn it back into electricity. Basically, you'll be looping energy from one wheel to the other while also losing out to friction. Your battery life will be extended, but your speed will be slowed proportionally. If you are willing to reduce max speed in order to extend battery life, you might as well just not use the regeneration system and instead choose to just not use the motors at their full strength and save space/weight in the skate.

If this system is used while braking, it would work. Recharging it via leg power would also make it work. However, recharging it while only using the motors would not give you a net advantage.

chris-chan
07-29-2007, 03:37 PM
actually, i agree with sunsurfandanime and q-tron. youd be converting kinetic energy to electronic energy which is already there, so it wouldnt be free energy. youre not going to get all youre energy back, but youd be able to extend the life of the batteries, making it useful. and i dont get where youre coming from where it would only work on braking then saying it wouldnt work. oh, and pretty much their idea is the same as that of a alternator on a gasoline engine. it uses kinetic energy put out by the motor and converts it to electronic energy and uses it to slightly replenish the battery in your car.

prismswordsman
07-29-2007, 07:09 PM
youd be converting kinetic energy to electronic energy which is already there, so it wouldnt be free energy.That's the point I'm making also. When I say "it won't work", I mean you won't be gaining any advantage, not that it is not possible. You would be turning kinetic energy (your speed) into 'electronic' energy (more battery life). You'd also be losing energy to friction and also moving the weight of the regeneration parts. If you just did not use your motors at full power, you would extend your battery life and reduce speed, but you would not lose out energy to friction or worry about the space/weight of the extra regeneration parts.

i dont get where youre coming from where it would only work on braking then saying it wouldnt work. oh, and pretty much their idea is the same as that of a alternator on a gasoline engine. it uses kinetic energy put out by the motor and converts it to electronic energy and uses it to slightly replenish the battery in your car.It only brings an advantage when used with braking. When you brake, you have the option to lose all your energy to friction or gain some of it back, which makes the choice to use regenerative braking a bit easy. A car engine can output alot of energy, most of which the average user will not need. Most people are willing to trade off a neglible speed increase for alternator luxuries like air conditioning.

chris-chan
07-29-2007, 09:30 PM
alright, you can call me an idiot or whatever, but i still dont understand what you mean when you say it will only work when braking. and i know a engine makes a lot more power than needed, im just stating an example. oh, and i almost never use my air conditioning. just thought id put that in.

prismswordsman
07-29-2007, 10:33 PM
A battery regeneration system will only be effective when braking. In essence, a regeneration system is just another type of brake. It will slow down the wheel just like any other brake. The only difference is that it's designed to generate electricity instead of losing energy to heat through friction. When you want to brake, the system works.

By using regeneration at the same time as motors, you will basically have your back wheels trying to accelerate while the front wheels are trying to brake, which is counterproductive. You will gain back some energy, but at the same time your motor will have to work that much harder to overcome the "brakes" of the generator wheel, which means you are not really saving any energy. Since your generator wheel can't be 100% efficient, you will actually be losing some energy.

izzymaru
07-30-2007, 03:34 AM
i found 2 sites on high voultage batteries
sunsurfandanime i know im not the best speller
i just needed a little push in the right direction so that i understood alittle more
and yes i know i mess up my spelling in almost every sentence...
but also thank u
now i know...
http://www.maxamps.com/
http://www.atbatt.com/battery.asp?ID=pd&src=goog&kw=batteries&gclid=CNjLouzxzo0CFR2NgQoddVBsRg
sorry if it dosent help.........

chris-chan
07-30-2007, 07:56 AM
alright, i understand it now. thanks prism. but, i wouldnt think it would produce that much friction so youre right when you say it will act slightly like a brake, and speed would be lower, but it would still work from what i hear.

cameronhirsch
08-06-2007, 12:07 AM
I know this isnt about Building them from scratch, but here (http://extremetoysforboys.com/index.php3/item/item/MotoSk8%C2%AE%20-%20Motorized%20Inline%20Skate.html)

They already have motorized skates, rather expensive, but if you got them, It most likely only accelerates 1 wheel, so it shouldnt be to hard to modify it to use say 72mm wheels or wheels from a foot powered scooter.

AznTranquility
08-07-2007, 12:04 AM
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2153/airtrekpt7.jpg

chris-chan
08-07-2007, 11:47 AM
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/2153/airtrekpt7.jpg

did you make those? and if so, how? they look just like ikkis too.

Q-Tron
08-07-2007, 08:32 PM
those r really good...if u made those u gotta tell how...

verdatum
08-08-2007, 12:26 AM
Thank you for taking over the cause prismswordsman. I never would've guessed I'd be arguing the laws of thermodynamics on a cosplay board ;-)

chris-chan
08-08-2007, 10:37 AM
verdatum, is there anything you realy dont know about science? cause everytime i see you on a board youre either pulling in how its made or some other discovery show and science.

chris-chan
08-23-2007, 03:33 PM
just found this pictre, figured itd help with skate wheels (if anyone is still working on these)
http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y183/mew_mewaddict/?action=view&current=wheel_profiles.jpg

kereneko
08-23-2007, 03:53 PM
currently Im modifying a pair of old rollarblades.

Im leaving the back wheel.. in the back. and im drilling a new hole and modifying the front so the front wheel is back a little bit further.
then im gonna paint it. They'll be close enough. Im not gonna try any thing with a motor. Im not skilled in that area. Plus I cant even bring them to the con anyway.

Maybe one day Ill find away to make some like the one's above, because wow those are amazing.

chris-chan
08-23-2007, 04:02 PM
yeah, they are. and i dropped the motor idea for now. l make them one day when batteries and motors a better. i still havent got started though.

ChrowX
08-24-2007, 05:18 PM
Uhg... I gave up on reading every page after you guys figured you could do a working pair at under 150$

I don't want to be mean, and I don't want to start flaming... But every Air Gear fan, including myself (and I'm a MASSIVE AG fan) thinks they know enough about electronics, engineering, and mechanics to build ATs.

About 90% of this thread has been Q-tron and chris-chan going back and forth with their ideas and that's always a good thing, but no one here has really taken the time to point out that Air Gear is set in the future and that much of the 'technology' used in the series and manga is all heavily sci-fi.

Over at Kuu-scans we've been discussion The same thing (http://www.kuu-scans.info/forum/index.php?topic=170.0)

Yes, it would be an awesome idea, but you wouldn't be able to buy commercial technology strong enough, compact enough, small enough, or even light enough to build something practical or even worth the time. On top of that, even in the series, AT's are not cheap technology. They're priced at a little over 100,000Yen which is about 800$ US.

If you want to just build cool looking 2-wheeled skates, I could support that and offer a world of suggestions, but this is just.. well, depressing. it's a nice dream, but there's no current technology that's available that could actually be used at Air Treck levels. Sure, you might be able to build something that can make wheeled shoes move, but it would probably just be quicker to walk.

Besides.. does anyone here have the experience, or the machining shop available to costom build the wheels, parts, materials, and everything else needed to build something of this scale?

This is a cosplay forum, so it's probably more worthwhile to discuss how to make authentic looking 2 wheeled rollerblades. Ya, it's nice to dream, but even people who know what they're doing still only come up with results like This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeAx-HqHiAY)

verdatum
08-24-2007, 08:10 PM
GWA HA HA HA! I knew someone would crack eventually. Yeah, the $150 was my personal favorite. As I said from the beginning, if you bother to do the math, you'll find that you're either going really really slow, or running out of energy (fuel, battery, etc.) really really fast, or it's really really big.

But I figured meh, it's fun to make props, and it's fun to play with stuff like motors and electronics. If it was people talking about seriously investing in this as though it were a business opportunity, then I would've stepped in and screamed a little louder. But with an average cosplayer's budget, they don't have too much to loose.

I think it's the right general mindset needed to come up with really neat and innovative ideas, just a bit impetuous with the design. That's just something best learned by experience.

If the thread goes on; if it cranks up to 500 posts, it's fine by me. I'm all for functional variations of cosplay props. I myself dream of making a functional implimentation of Ivy's Snake Sword (Soul Calibur). Likewise, I have very little doubt that it will be geeky cosplayer types who push the development of functional mecha armours.

If I were to make a pair of aesthetically dead-on unpowered ATs, it would include custom molded polyurethane wheels, carbon-fiber soled boots (modded from rollerblades or ice skates), and a composite fiberglass reinforced nylon wheelframe. It would take me about 8 months if I stuck to it, and cost me about 400$ in new tools and materials alone, taking into account that I already have a molding/casting workshop setup. Even then, the skates wouldn't be truely symmetrical, as that would require a CAD driven CNC device.

Thank God I can't skate ;)

chris-chan
08-24-2007, 08:50 PM
i just have to say that i dont remember ever saying $150 for a final price, and i also would like to note that we do include that that technology has to get better and how long we think we can get off of a single charge, which is why i personally decided that if im gonna make a pair, im going nitro engine.

verdatum
08-25-2007, 04:12 AM
Meh, Q-Tron mentioned around 150$ awhile back. It wasn't until the 17th of this month that anyone posted the 'oh wait, with a motor this will cost more' comments.

Chris-Chan, you talk about using an RC Nitro motor, but I haven't seen any mention as to the issue of heat. Nitro engines use a comparitively large heat sink that get up to a few hundred degrees F. As a poster on the first page commented, he tried nitro, and it melted the frame. Depending on engine position, I see you either melting the skate, burning yourself, or connecting it to something like a backpack with a drive-shaft that would be a giant pain in the butt....I guess you could mod it to use liquid coolant, and then like rig it to a radiator fixed to your chest (along with a coolant pump)...but that doesn't sound terribly stylish.

prismswordsman
08-25-2007, 10:29 AM
Nitro engines use a comparitively large heat sink that get up to a few hundred degrees F. As a poster on the first page commented, he tried nitro, and it melted the frame. Depending on engine position, I see you either melting the skate, burning yourself, or connecting it to something like a backpack with a drive-shaft that would be a giant pain in the butt....I guess you could mod it to use liquid coolant, and then like rig it to a radiator fixed to your chest (along with a coolant pump)...but that doesn't sound terribly stylish.I see that being an awesome Transformers cosplay XD.

On a more topic-related note, some guy on the following forum...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?page=16&tid=1623

... said he's basically created an AT. Somehow, he's developed/bought an in-wheel motor and is able to change gears wirelessly, achieving speeds of 40km/h on 3rd gear (out of 5 total gears). I have my doubts... especially considering how much that would cost, the fact that the project is less than 2 months old, and current lack of pictures.

ChrowX
08-25-2007, 12:21 PM
I see that being an awesome Transformers cosplay XD.

On a more topic-related note, some guy on the following forum...
http://www.mangaupdates.com/showtopic.php?page=16&tid=1623

... said he's basically created an AT. Somehow, he's developed/bought an in-wheel motor and is able to change gears wirelessly, achieving speeds of 40km/h on 3rd gear (out of 5 total gears). I have my doubts... especially considering how much that would cost, the fact that the project is less than 2 months old, and current lack of pictures.

One sec for me to look that over, cause it sounds like BS... considering in-wheels motors don't exist.. and to get up to 40km/h is ridiculous for a motor the size of a wheel (if that's how fast it goes with a human wearing it)

Now, the big reason I doubt this guy is because he just seems like some kid on the internet who can't even use proper capitalization and punctuation. I'm not trying to make this a personal attack, but 'in-wheel motors' don't exist, and here's the biggest nail in the coffin... He says this thing has multiple gears... Which would require some transmission or something that is generally much larger than a wheel. People like to lie on the internet, but what can you do?
Oh yeah, and he described his AT's as aggressive boots with bigger wheels with wires attached. El Oh El.

prismswordsman
08-25-2007, 01:12 PM
^^ Well actually, in wheel motors do exist, under the name of "hub motors". Most electric bikes use them, though no in-wheel motor exists (as far as I know) that can be scaled to a skate wheel size. I don't buy his story either, but at least people from here can see the work of other people working on the same goal (fictional or not).

chris-chan
08-25-2007, 02:59 PM
Meh, Q-Tron mentioned around 150$ awhile back. It wasn't until the 17th of this month that anyone posted the 'oh wait, with a motor this will cost more' comments.

Chris-Chan, you talk about using an RC Nitro motor, but I haven't seen any mention as to the issue of heat. Nitro engines use a comparitively large heat sink that get up to a few hundred degrees F. As a poster on the first page commented, he tried nitro, and it melted the frame. Depending on engine position, I see you either melting the skate, burning yourself, or connecting it to something like a backpack with a drive-shaft that would be a giant pain in the butt....I guess you could mod it to use liquid coolant, and then like rig it to a radiator fixed to your chest (along with a coolant pump)...but that doesn't sound terribly stylish.

i think i was the one whoposted the motor would cost more comment.

and i as going to use a metal frame instead of a plastic one. i was going to allow room for the heatsink, but i really didnt know how hot one of those would get. if i need to ad and intercooler or radiator of some type, then ill just go back and change my design.

and i found a perfect quote for these. the guy who made the tesla said this when he was describing it. "in order for this to work efficently, the technology's going to have to get better."

ChrowX
08-25-2007, 03:26 PM
Well then, I say we move onto the real goal here rather than crushing dreams and belittling random internet kiddies!

Building Air Treck Props for AG cosplay that look authentic, and damn cool, ya?

Here's what I've figured out so far for building what is essentially a stylish 2 wheeled pair of roller blades.
This fellow, (AKA The Evil One (http://members.cosplay.com/member/67388/)), was actually quite close with the most logical way to build them.
His big problem though was that he had issues with balance, and while looking over his creations I can see why: His wheel placement. He mentioned that he nearly fell on his face countless times while wearing them and I figure that's because the front wheel is under his toes where you have very little to balance on.

If changes from panel to panel, like with all Manga, but the designs of the ATs places one wheel under the heel and another right under the front end (can't remember the name). A modified shoe with two 100mm Wheels (http://www.skates.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KR&click=35) attached would look a lot more like an AT then. If you used The Evil One's method with the chopped up metal rectangular tracks then it would be even better (keeps the shoe stiff and doesn't mess up your balance more). All you'd have to add after words would be a boot cover made of your choice of materials.

chris-chan
08-25-2007, 07:00 PM
ah, i was having fun bringing down my dreams.

nice observation. personally, i was going to go with his second design, but i never thought of a boot cover.

ChrowX
08-26-2007, 10:14 AM
I'd suggest taking two wood blocks, roughly the size of each wheel and placing them under your foot with one directly under your heel (which you could potentially balance on alone) and one towards the front of the shoe. You'll see what I mean pretty quickly.

chris-chan
08-26-2007, 06:10 PM
i guess ill have to try that sometime.

Q-Tron
09-03-2007, 12:42 PM
so..u guys finally got rid of the idea of REAL AT's too huh? i gave up awhile back, but i never posted anything for a while...so now..how did that one guy in the pic chris-chan posted earlier make those incredibly realistic looking AT's...we should try to take apart his design piece by piece

chris-chan
09-03-2007, 06:44 PM
definately. i think i saw a reference pic of real looking ones (they were real two wheel at's, but they were look alikes from the show/manga) in one of the photobucket accounts posted on here. we could try to use those as well.

Q-Tron
09-03-2007, 07:57 PM
good idea o.O

Mr.?
09-04-2007, 10:49 PM
I MADE A WOKRING AIRTRECK!! Ends up the battery is energized by the heat generated in the motor.It looks Just like ikki's except for it is Black n WHITE.The Batterry Allows it to go 93mph at highest and the wheel has grip.I made 2 of them in the whole summer for 15 straight.All u need is somthing that makes the front wheel work while the other wheel Generates.U will need it to be cooled though so that it will not overheat!The Battery powers the moter and the moter powers the Battery. I trained for a month so i can use it well and ill be working on other versoins of it. o & the test drive was succecful

Mr.?
09-04-2007, 10:56 PM
Its simple realy, the alkaline in a batery works well when heated,thats y rechargable batteries are hot when they're recharged.the Moter generates heat when its on. and u start the moters by pushing the back of your foot to the back of the shoe. For the wheels i kinda made it on my own. I tried to make a week for 3 weeks and 2 days. The wheels have the same substances as those toys that stick to the wall.it also contains some oil so when in the road it won't tear up. It takes me 4 weeks to make em now!!

pearle
09-05-2007, 03:19 AM
Hey Mr.?, post a pic of ur Airtreck!

Kuddy
09-05-2007, 09:05 AM
i'm not so good in english so sry for some mistakes...

well i saw air gear(all episodes) last week and i must say i love it :)
i'm skating too but those air trecks are so cool that i want to have some

Mr.? can u tell me how do u get the power from the motor to the wheels? PLEASE!:bigtu:

spanner
09-05-2007, 09:57 AM
Its simple realy, the alkaline in a batery works well when heated,thats y rechargable batteries are hot when they're recharged.the Moter generates heat when its on. and u start the moters by pushing the back of your foot to the back of the shoe. For the wheels i kinda made it on my own. I tried to make a week for 3 weeks and 2 days. The wheels have the same substances as those toys that stick to the wall.it also contains some oil so when in the road it won't tear up. It takes me 4 weeks to make em now!!

Pics or it didn't happen

prismswordsman
09-05-2007, 10:47 AM
-- Deleted --

chris-chan
09-05-2007, 08:38 PM
I MADE A WOKRING AIRTRECK!! Ends up the battery is energized by the heat generated in the motor.It looks Just like ikki's except for it is Black n WHITE.The Batterry Allows it to go 93mph at highest and the wheel has grip.I made 2 of them in the whole summer for 15 straight.All u need is somthing that makes the front wheel work while the other wheel Generates.U will need it to be cooled though so that it will not overheat!The Battery powers the moter and the moter powers the Battery. I trained for a month so i can use it well and ill be working on other versoins of it. o & the test drive was succecful
two words. bull, and shit. theres no way you did this. really, you shouldnt have put this up when you have this many people working on it getting REAL numbers. oh, and verdatum's on here, so yeah, we got a science freak. someone mark this as spam.

elanems
09-09-2007, 05:56 PM
I thought this would be interesting to share :D I don't think it's been mentioned (Please don't pummel me if it has Dx )
http://blogfiles13.naver.net/data18/2007/7/27/268/roolcop_akffktyd.jpg
This is a Korean product, a two-wheel inline skate with foldable frame.
Apparently, it was sold over home-shopping, but it's discontinued :x
I've heard this rumor that they have a similar product in Japan, too... ;;;

I wonder if this would this be any better than just taking out the middle two wheels from a regular inline skate... u_U;;

EDIT: This link works: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/spoiledoe/roolcop_akffktyd.jpg

ChrowX
09-09-2007, 06:56 PM
Its simple realy, the alkaline in a batery works well when heated,thats y rechargable batteries are hot when they're recharged.the Moter generates heat when its on. and u start the moters by pushing the back of your foot to the back of the shoe. For the wheels i kinda made it on my own. I tried to make a week for 3 weeks and 2 days. The wheels have the same substances as those toys that stick to the wall.it also contains some oil so when in the road it won't tear up. It takes me 4 weeks to make em now!!

Haha... Everything about this post is so false it's HILARIOUS.
A few things wrong with your explanation.
First of all, physics would not allow you to make what you just described, which is free energy. You'd loose all energy in a short amount of time if that even worked. No, you cannot use engine heat to charge a battery to make it run.

Secondly, this who, 'sticky substance with oils' is even more BS. That doesn't even make sense at all.

I love the hell out of Air Gear, but with every discussion there's always that guy who proclaims that all by themselves they've made real AT's with ultra technology that doesn't exist. Likewise, there's also the same guy who claims that he programmed a full Air Gear game on his own or something similar.

chris-chan
09-09-2007, 10:01 PM
I thought this would be interesting to share :D I don't think it's been mentioned (Please don't pummel me if it has Dx )
http://blogfiles13.naver.net/data18/2007/7/27/268/roolcop_akffktyd.jpg
This is a Korean product, a two-wheel inline skate with foldable frame.
Apparently, it was sold over home-shopping, but it's discontinued :x
I've heard this rumor that they have a similar product in Japan, too... ;;;

I wonder if this would this be any better than just taking out the middle two wheels from a regular inline skate... u_U;;

i thank hose were on another forum on here. one of the guys is getting a set of shoes with foldable wheels to wear to nekocon in his spitfire costume. dont know for sure cause the picture wouldnt show.

AcuraRacer32tl
09-09-2007, 10:46 PM
Here you go. Problem solved.

http://www.fiveflagsmotorbikes.com/Motosk8.htm

elanems
09-10-2007, 01:37 PM
i thank hose were on another forum on here. one of the guys is getting a set of shoes with foldable wheels to wear to nekocon in his spitfire costume. dont know for sure cause the picture wouldnt show.
Wah, sorry. I uploaded it onto my own account: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/spoiledoe/roolcop_akffktyd.jpg
Now it's kind of small though Dx

chris-chan
09-11-2007, 03:22 PM
those werent the ones i was talking about. look cool though. where did you say you found those?

and acuraracer: we have already talked about that one. besides, it doesnt even look remotely close to an AT.

elanems
09-13-2007, 02:56 PM
^^^
I was searching for air-gear related stuff on naver (a Korean equivalent of Google xD ). I searched for 2 wheeled inline, and came across those.
I also found a Agito cosplayer wearing a pair: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v39/spoiledoe/npe7c_terucaru.jpg
*drool* Such a cute Agito btw >.<;;; Red eyes...

Hmm... They don't look bad. I want to get them now, if I can manage to find them x.X;;; But I was planning on cosplaying Kururu... ;;; (Why can't she have AT's too u_U )

chris-chan
09-13-2007, 03:23 PM
wonder where you can buy them. they look really cool. i want to get a pair now. and yeah, that is a pretty cute agito.

Q-Tron
09-29-2007, 10:26 PM
Okay guys, I saw this episode of Mythbusters (AKA the best show ever) today and it was a superhero myth. Adam and Jamie made a grappling hook that would pull them up with an electric motor (small enough to fit in a skate for sure.)
Now let me state some facts:
*The force of gravity is approximately 9.8m/s/s
*Jamie Hyneman weighs about 175 lbs, or 79.38kgs
*The grappling hook pulled Jamie straight up at about 3.2m/s/s
*The formula for finding acceleration is F=m(g+a). The answer is in Newtons.
*Torque is the measure of force applied to produce rotational motion.
*Newtons-Meter can be figured by multiplying the force by the distance from the pivot to the location where the force is applied.
*The distance from the pivot to where force is applied on this wheel is approx. 0.0381 meters.
*To convert Newtons-Meter to Foot-Pound, you can simply multiply by 0.7376.
*Foot-Pound to Joules, you multiply by 1.36.
*To figure how fast the motor can get you traveling you add your weight (in kilograms) and the Joules figured into the formula. E=1/2m(v^2).

I figured that one motor could push me about 1.27m/s (2.84mph), and two could push me 1.8 m/s (4.03mph.) But keep in mind that the Mythbusters had to have the motor customized to 1/4 the rpm that it originally had so they would have enough torque to pull Jamie up. If the rpm was 4x what they used, it may still be powerful enough to push a human being on land. In that case, the speed would be 4x greater.

So for all of those people out there saying we don't have the technology, you're way off. We DO have the technology, and at the rate technology is moving these days, it should be readily available in the next 5-10 years.

chris-chan
09-29-2007, 10:52 PM
seen that episode, it was a good one too. and mythbusters is definetely the best show ever.
butdid you see where he had his battery pack and how big it was? its been a while since ive seen the episode, but last i remember the pack was a pretty good size.
and youre right, we do have the technology to make it (like some of us have been saying) but we need to perfect the technology to make it better, and i dont think thats gonna take 5-10 years, unless youre talking about in wheel motors, which will take lose to 5 to get them small enough. but, look at Li ion batteries. when they first came out, they were real expensive, and they still are, but they are dropping in price everday as the technology to make them gets better and the factor costs get cheaper. tesla motor company is hoping to have a Li ion powered family sedan (or suv, cant remember which) out in a few years, so the factor costs are going down.

Rasend
10-08-2007, 07:50 AM
hey, im new to the threads here. big fan of AG. me and my friend were thinking of something simple for starters, just as a prototype. along the lines of..i believe is called a "chain drive". basically a small amount of chain connecting the front and back wheel on either side, connecting to the external powersource. possibly controlled by something like a metalic insulated pad near the toes, connected to the external powersource inside of the skate, and coming out of the rear. acting something like a "switch" to activate the motor or whatever. you'd most likely need two motors per skate, to generate enough power to move the chains. a breaking mechanism could be in the sole of the skate. it would be about proper weight distribution. sorry if none of it makes sense or sounds stupid, been awake a few days :P