PDA

View Full Version : Cultural Context (Nazis and Blackface at Comiket)


kiratsukai
01-04-2011, 06:44 PM
Yeah, another of these!

But hey, it's been awhile since we've had a decent debate about this sort of thing and it's a little slow.

So the background:

This year at Comiket, there were quite a lot of nazis (http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/)!! Day 2 there was a particularly notable and scary chap in an SS uniform who was terribly good at being nazi-esque and apparently even answered a friend's inquiry with "Heil Hitler". He had a group of 3 or 4 other Nazi armband-wearing fellows with him, too. I was a little uncomfy around them.

On Day 3, another nazi came to photograph our Kuroshitsuji group and I immediately turned the tables: "I want a picture with the nazi!!!" He covered his armband with one hand and looked incredibly embarrassed, "I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I'm so sorry!!!!" I laughed it off and assured him that I really did want a picture with him on the condition "No salutes... that's not cool." Afterward I gave him a handshake and told him I was okay with fake nazis and that I only hate real ones :P

Comiket also had at least 4 or 5 Japanese dudes in blackface with fake afros, a handful of outrageous gay stereotypes, and at least one Kim Jung Il.

Politically correct? Certainly not.

Offensive to anyone around me at Comiket? Seemingly not.

But I'm curious to know what a tourist at Comiket would have throught of the nazis. Or what someone online might think seeing my photo posed with one.

Are nazi uniforms and armbands automatically offensive? Or do cultures with virtually no holocaust education in their history cirriculum, no Jewish population and a backwards swastika as a common map symbol get a free ride?

On the converse: have you ever wondered what people from other cultures might think of common Halloween costumes parodying their race or history? Or what a Japanese attendee to Anime Expo might think of a white girl in an over-the-top geisha costume?

Are we obliged to protect travellers from our own institutionalized notions of race and propriety?

Axelai
01-04-2011, 06:52 PM
All i can say on this topic is that i know Japanese people in particular aren't offended on Nazi-esque things. And i hear its common to wear Nazi themed clothing.

And honestly, Nazis knew how to dress. Sexy clothing for sure.

But i know a lot of western people would be offended. After all, its a touchy subject to us.

But thats all i'm going to say on that subject.

Kildread
01-04-2011, 06:52 PM
Honestly, it kinds of carries a prejudice, the insignas and nazi 'attire' will be seen offensive by some.

Though as your post covers, it's clothing, and a costume is a costume. In a way, some of us cosplay fairly disgusting chaps (Pyramid Head, Hunter zombies, bad guys/girls in games?) although all fiction, the ideals and actions they commit in fiction seem like an odd choice for a costume.

A lot of it goes to a question of assuming the person in costume makes a statement of being just like that character (Fictional or not). Considering the place and time, I don't see costuming as nazis on convention grounds being offensive, just like being an actor who fills in the role of Hitler in those many WW2 movies...

On the cultural thing --- myself, I want to check out conventions in different countries, just ot see different places and different 'atmospheres', as I'm sure conventions are different from country to country :)

kiratsukai
01-04-2011, 06:55 PM
And i hear its common to wear Nazi themed clothing.

Not really, no.

Something being relatively inoffensive doesn't make it common.

I've never seen anyone on the street wearing nazi or ss insignia in 6 years living here.

Most events, including Comiket, also encourage guests to be mindful of costumes that are potentially offensive to visitors of other cultures and races. It isn't a hard and fast rule per se, but nazi uniforms have been mentioned specifically by extremely visible events like Tokyo Game Show as "unwelcome".

doxiequeen1
01-04-2011, 07:01 PM
It really doesn't bother me...It's JUST a costume

I mean Rena is a supposed to be psychotic murder; but it's just a costume it's not like a I run around killing people..

As long as it's just as the person isn't actually a nazi I don't see any harm :P

jukebox
01-04-2011, 07:08 PM
The uniform itself is one thing, since they certainly are impressive feats of tailoring and historical costume, but walking around with the armband or swastika visible is incredibly inconsiderable. I think for the whole costume itself, individuals and conventions ought to use their own discretion. For me, the line is certainly having the symbol on display. If I were on staff at a convention and heard someone deliberately spouting out "Heil Hiter" on top of the costume more than once or twice, I'd throw him out of the con. :/

Ignoring the hurt that's been done to millions of people's families just because "it's in the past" and you want to feel entitled is rather selfish, in my opinion. It marginalizes those who have already been made victims.

Shana05
01-04-2011, 07:13 PM
It is touchy. Like others said, I personally know it's a costume so it doesn't bother me. But it can be problematic when encountering people who aren't with the con and don't know that. Even if these people know it's a costume they may still have a problem with it as the outrage over Prince Harry's Halloween costume years ago. Although, I believe part of the outrage was in relation to his royal status.

The only suggestion I can give for people who choose to wear Nazi costumes is to remove the armband when leaving the con area. I've also seen some people omit the swastika and simply have a red armband with a white circle.

Axelai
01-04-2011, 07:17 PM
Not really, no.

Something being relatively inoffensive doesn't make it common.

I've never seen anyone on the street wearing nazi or ss insignia in 6 years living here.

Most events, including Comiket, also encourage guests to be mindful of costumes that are potentially offensive to visitors of other cultures and races. It isn't a hard and fast rule per se, but nazi uniforms have been mentioned specifically by extremely visible events like Tokyo Game Show as "unwelcome".

Well, like i said, it's what i "heard". I've never been to Japan to see it myself.

Yukikittie
01-04-2011, 07:19 PM
I....I don't really know.... WHY would you dress like a Nazi is my main question. They were horrible people. After I went to a Holocaust museum a few weeks ago, I really have no respect for them, at all. :| Even if they aren't in your schools curriculum, wouldn't you at least have an IDEA of what those guys did?
Black face and gay stereotypes kinda bug me as well...not as bad as the Nazi thing but still...
Oh well, to each their own. I don't have to like it, but a person can dress however they want and shouldn't have to face any discrimination for it. :)
If I ever went to Comiket, I would be shocked when I first saw it. (If I hadn't read your post at all first. xD) I wouldn't know what to think, if they were actual Nazi's showing their pride or people just dressing up. All I would do would be ignore them though. Looking at your picture though, I wouldn't think much of it. Since I've seen your posts and you don't seem to be pro-Nazi at all.
I sure as hell would not get my picture taken with them though. :p

Lovelychristina
01-04-2011, 07:21 PM
And honestly, Nazis knew how to dress. Sexy clothing for sure.
You aren't kidding.

Basically people have their own opinions. I don't see a Problem with anyone wearing anything they want as long as they aren't purposely using those outfits to make threats or attacks against other. IMO almost Everything is up for cosplay, If people don'i like it then they don't have to take photos.

Axelai
01-04-2011, 07:27 PM
You aren't kidding.

I'm not. Hugo Boss designed the SS Uniforms... and they're an awesome designer company thingy. I bet if the Nazis weren't so not politically correct, it'd probably be fashionable to dress like them. http://samods.org/staff/magic/articles/bw_campaign/uniform-ss_officers.gif C'mon, you have to admit thats pretty sexy. As not politically correct as it is.

I also fear this thread going into a... Nazi rage thread. I'll hold my tongue on that subject.

Yukikittie
01-04-2011, 07:28 PM
I'm afraid of this too. X__X I basically did a small rage in my post and I agreed with how they shouldn't be harassed for it! D':
PLEASE THREAD. PLEASE DON'T BE A SHITSTORM.

Avatar Alvaang
01-04-2011, 07:28 PM
It really doesn't bother me...It's JUST a costume

I mean Rena is a supposed to be psychotic murder; but it's just a costume it's not like a I run around killing people..

As long as it's just as the person isn't actually a nazi I don't see any harm :P

Problem is that Nazis are REAL and many people have been affected by it. Yes it is a costume but that outfit has a long history of violence making it unfortable to others. Like others said I do not care as long as they don't shout offensive remarks but the armband of the swastika is taking it a bit too far. Would make me feel better if they were Nazi zombies

Tonyu
01-04-2011, 07:35 PM
Funny, this sort of thing happened to me just this weekend.

I was at a cosplay chess panel and I looked at the person next to me and saw a swastika on his arm band. Just assumed he was from Hellsing or something, until someone asked for a picture and he did the nazi salute (and I saw his face). :/

It makes me more uncomfortable than offended, as I don't know why they chose to cosplay as that person. That and I think dressing up as a figure from a well known real life hate group is poor taste.

On the flip side it is just a costume.

Yui
01-04-2011, 07:45 PM
But hey, it's been awhile since we've had a decent debate about this sort of thing and it's a little slow.

But...it was so peaceful. ;_;
(And it's actually only been about 2 days from the last mention of this.)

Are we obliged to protect travellers from our own institutionalized notions of race and propriety?

...But in answer to your actual question, I believe it is the duty of a traveler to be prepared for all possible elements of culture shock - and should they find certain local viewpoints offensive (especially within the context of non-standard conduct, such as imaginary cosplay in a contained space) they need to keep their cool and/or remove themselves from the event if necessary.

Axelai
01-04-2011, 07:52 PM
But...it was so peaceful. ;_;
(And it's actually only been about 2 days from the last mention of this.)



You referencing the nazi talk that happened in the Off Topic? (I was so glad that ended... and then we get another one. Bring on the Axelai!Uncomfortableness).

/love peace

Flora88
01-04-2011, 07:59 PM
I'm certainly bugged by all of it. I may be acting a bit sensitive, but the gay stereotypes = intolerance. The Nazis = ignorance/intolerance. The blackface = racism (yet another form of intolerance.) In the end, regardless of what country you're in, it's making yourself a caricature-ish image of another race. That's...ugh. So tacky. And offensive.

HOWEVER, it's just not smart, as an outsider, to try and tell a bunch of people in another country how wrong something they're doing is.

Would I throw a fit if I was at Comiket and saw a bunch of people in blackface? No.
Would I be quietly offended? Certainly.

So I suppose the answer to this, as far as I am concerned, would be: Don't hold other countries to your own country's standards. But you certainly have the right to politely disapprove.

saiyamanmasenko
01-04-2011, 08:08 PM
"It's just a costume" is kinda similar to "I was just following orders." (sorry, had to make a bad Nazi reference in there)

Actually, I am on the opinion that people are probably gonna dress however they feel like dressing at a con. It would be nice if people would actually try taking others' feelings into account sometimes, though.

Axelai
01-04-2011, 08:16 PM
"It's just a costume" is kinda similar to "I was just following orders." (sorry, had to make a bad Nazi reference in there)

Can't keep quiet on this one, sorry. Just going to make the comment that if you disobeyed orders, you'd be shot. While in this case, you'll only get shot if you're wearing your costume outside the convention itself.

/shuts up now

EDIT: My mom is reading this over my shoulder, and she would like me to comment that she agrees with everyone who is offended, though she wouldn't be offended herself.

sam vimes
01-04-2011, 08:23 PM
I just....

I got nothin'. Have fun with this one.

Eurobeat King
01-04-2011, 08:35 PM
kiratsukai: Do you have any pictures of these cosplayers that you mention? I'm sure with all the photographers there, pictures have to have been taken. I'm curious to see.

Pokeboy
01-04-2011, 08:52 PM
I'd definetly be creeped out. I mean, someone spent the time and effort to create a Nazi uniform...I certainly wouldn't want to go up and chat with them.

Codename Otacon
01-04-2011, 09:20 PM
(Going to hated for saying this)

I saw a few photos of the Japanese Nazi Cosplayers last month...and I have to admit...they look pretty cool. I didn't know they were suppose to be Nazis since the uniforms look so different, something that you see in Trinity Blood. Very fancy and beautiful. Don't know if those cosplayers are the same ones that you seen...how did they look like?

Axelai
01-04-2011, 09:23 PM
(Going to hated for saying this)

I saw a few photos of the Japanese Nazi Cosplayers last month...and I have to admit...they look pretty cool. I didn't know they were suppose to be Nazis since the uniforms look so different, something that you see in Trinity Blood. Very fancy and beautiful. Don't know if those cosplayers are the same ones that you seen...how did they look like?

(hey, like i said, Nazi uniforms are sexy. Just not PC )

Ritsu H Saotome
01-04-2011, 09:31 PM
"I....I don't really know.... WHY would you dress like a Nazi is my main question"

Germany Cosplay maybe? (he does wear the Gestapo uniform).

alpha_helix
01-04-2011, 09:32 PM
I'm certainly bugged by all of it. I may be acting a bit sensitive, but the gay stereotypes = intolerance. The Nazis = ignorance/intolerance. The blackface = racism (yet another form of intolerance.) In the end, regardless of what country you're in, it's making yourself a caricature-ish image of another race. That's...ugh. So tacky. And offensive.

HOWEVER, it's just not smart, as an outsider, to try and tell a bunch of people in another country how wrong something they're doing is.

Would I throw a fit if I was at Comiket and saw a bunch of people in blackface? No.
Would I be quietly offended? Certianly.

So I suppose the answer to this, as far as I am concerned, would be: Don't hold other countries to your own country's standards. But you certainly have the right to politely disapprove.

QFT, this is basically what I was going to say.

It's OK to be offended by these sorts of things (and it's a bit ridiculous to expect even the most open minded traveler to shrug off ALL of their home culture's views and ideals), but it's just as ridiculous to throw a stink about it and expect the citizens of another country to conform to the traveller's ideals just so they don't get their fee-fees hurt.

Axelai
01-04-2011, 09:38 PM
"I....I don't really know.... WHY would you dress like a Nazi is my main question"

Germany Cosplay maybe? (he does wear the Gestapo uniform).

Correction: Germany wears a mish mash of a bunch of different German uniforms, as Himaruya's way of (making it difficult to cosplay him) keeping it politically correct and not offensive. His uniform is a mix of a Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, Waffenrock, and Schutzpolizei administration uniform.

...i wonder if i spelled all that correctly.

Celia Rose
01-04-2011, 11:08 PM
(Going to hated for saying this)

I saw a few photos of the Japanese Nazi Cosplayers last month...and I have to admit...they look pretty cool. I didn't know they were suppose to be Nazis since the uniforms look so different, something that you see in Trinity Blood. Very fancy and beautiful. Don't know if those cosplayers are the same ones that you seen...how did they look like?
I seem to remember reading an article about a Nazi-styled costume that was becoming a popular costume in Japan. I don't remember where it was at (or, frankly, how long it's been since I read it "Orz), but I do remember reading it and seeing a picture or a video clip accompanying it.

I agree with Alexai's statement that the Nazi uniforms are incredibly sexy. Take away the swastikas, and BAM. Hotness, bby~ :heart:

Lithium Flower
01-04-2011, 11:17 PM
Considering that there's some great debate among Hellsing cosplayers on replacing the swastika symbol on Schroedinger's band with the typical 'kitty face' I am going to anticipate some great amount of differentiated opinions in this thread. derp.

Anywho;
It can be offensive yes, but this can also heavily depend on how the cosplayer BEHAVES. The same way a girl dressed as thief Rikku can be modest in the way she holds herself or a cosplayer dressed as Snow White can be whorish if she behaves like a giant slutopotamus. Someone in a Nazi uniform can be tacky as hell if they walk around like Erik Cartman or can simply be wearing some historical crap that may or may not have been the wisest of choices.

People can, and will be, offended by someone somewhere regardless of the culture they come from. And it's their goddamn right to dislike something. So go ahead and feel whatever feeling comes naturally to you. But just as someone has the right to dress up in a possibly culture shaming example of a geisha, a slutty nipple-tassel and thong wearing anime babe, or a fully clothed nun with unshaved legs and a wicked unibrow, it means that others can cosplay something you might find offensive. It is the nature of the world we live in for us to disagree with the choices of others, as we are so wonderfully different.

And occasionally people do something just to get a shit out of you anyway.

An Asian dude in blackface will not hurt me anymore than a Ganguro girl's dayglo tan.

/end my sleepy half Nyquil fulled response/

Axelai
01-04-2011, 11:21 PM
Anywho;
It can be offensive yes, but this can also heavily depend on how the cosplayer BEHAVES. The same way a girl dressed as thief Rikku can be modest in the way she holds herself or a cosplayer dressed as Snow White can be whorish if she behaves like a giant slutopotamus. Someone in a Nazi uniform can be tacky as hell if they walk around like Erik Cartman or can simply be wearing some historical crap that may or may not have been the wisest of choices.


This reminds me... i have knee high black boots i got from Designer Shoe Warehouse... when i pull them all the way up (they can be wrinkled and halfway down my calves, or pulled up and straight) they look sort of like German Jack Boots. And make me feel like walking more confidently.

Not sure if thats good or bad

Lithium Flower
01-04-2011, 11:24 PM
This reminds me... i have knee high black boots i got from Designer Shoe Warehouse... when i pull them all the way up (they can be wrinkled and halfway down my calves, or pulled up and straight) they look sort of like German Jack Boots. And make me feel like walking more confidently.

Not sure if thats good or bad

Clearly you where a Nazi in a past life and you've yet to give up your love for Hitler in this one. You are a danger to us all.

Elf Lady
01-04-2011, 11:31 PM
But again, why would someone choose to cosplay as a Nazi? The Nazi's exterminated millions, caused unbelievable suffering. I don't see any reason to glorify or pay homage via costume to that in any way. I can understand taking elements of the uniform and creating something new but to cosplay as a Nazi? I'm sorry, but I would be very offended. I wouldn't say anything to the cosplayer or lecture them, but I would definitely not like it.

Just like I would be equally offended if someone cosplayed as a KKK member. What are they trying to say? I don't get it. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

Axelai
01-04-2011, 11:35 PM
Clearly you where a Nazi in a past life and you've yet to give up your love for Hitler in this one. You are a danger to us all.

Hide your jews.

Sorry if i offend anyone XD; <3 you all

mitsuki_sairen
01-04-2011, 11:44 PM
@Elf Lady: seconded.
Why would you want to do that in the first place, really?
One thing is a fictional character, this is a whole another matter.
And I don't get how people can even like hellsing in the first place. :/
I've read the first two volumes because of a friend who likes it and the dominating feeling for me was simply disgust.

Eau de Decus
01-04-2011, 11:50 PM
It really doesn't bother me...It's JUST a costume That's kind of my stance on the whole thing. I really don't care if people cosplay in such ways, as it really doesn't bother me. I don't find any of it offensive in the slightest.

IAmShorty
01-04-2011, 11:54 PM
Hide your jews.

Sorry if i offend anyone XD; <3 you all

You have just offended the part of me that is 1/16 jewish


I dont think it would be that big of a deal if I ever saw a Nazi cosplayer. I's just wonder why they chose that in the first place, but it is just a costume.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 12:06 AM
You have just offended the part of me that is 1/16 jewish


So the 1/16th German part of me offended the 1/16th Jewish part of you? I bet our ancestors were like, mortal enemies o u o

Elf Lady
01-05-2011, 12:12 AM
Slightly OT and perhaps I'm too PC but I also hate it when I see fans abbreviate "Japanese" as "Jap". Really?! That was such a derogatory term for the Japanese during WWII. Now perhaps some fans may not realize that the term is offensive, perhaps they are not familiar with that part of 20th century history but ignorance (and I mean that in the sense of lack of education, not as a disparaging term) of historical context can lead to offense (even if unintentional). It's a bit of a slippery slope. Yes, the Nazi cosplay may be just a costume but the message that the cosplayer may be inadvertently broadcasting is "look how cool the Nazi's were, I admire them so much I'm dressing like one". At least that's how I would interpret it.

Again, I do apologize if I've offended anyone with this. I guess I feel pretty strongly about it.

sam vimes
01-05-2011, 12:19 AM
So let me get this straight:

If someone in Europe , the U.S. or Canada wears a Nazi costume it's verboten.

If someone from a country that was allied with Nazi Germany does the same, then that's perfectly fine.

/facepalm

Axelai
01-05-2011, 12:20 AM
So let me get this straight:

If someone in Europe , the U.S. or Canada wears a Nazi costume it's verboten.

If someone from a country that was allied with Nazi Germany does the same, then that's perfectly fine.

/facepalm

Sounds about right.

More like that its not offensive to them, since they don't see it as horrifically evil as the average American does.

sam vimes
01-05-2011, 12:21 AM
I don't want to post in this thread any more.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 12:24 AM
I don't want to post in this thread any more.

I'm sorry.

Soku
01-05-2011, 12:27 AM
Honestly, when it comes to nazi and communist outfits and the like, I'm not really offended. And this is coming from a person who's family saw the horrors of Nazi occupation and Communist occupation with pretty much no break in between. (Polish by the way) I just think the outfits are cool, really. I OWN a military jacket that is German, while it is not specifically nazi, it still bewilders people. It's like they think I should hate Germany or something.

But back on the subject, I wouldn't be offended by the outfits, however if they shared the attitude, well then I might get really argumentive. I can't say the same for black face, it makes me feel uncomfortable, and I don't like it, but for some reason I can't really be "offended" by it because it is not directed to me. It's not like I don't care, but I don't share the same prejudice? I hope this isn't making me sound like a racist cow T_T

Amanita
01-05-2011, 12:49 AM
Why would anyone cosplay a Nazi? Historical re-enactment aside, just look at how Nazis have been woven into our popular culture and entertainment. Video games, movies, comics, the list goes on. So somebody in Nazi garb may actually be cosplaying a movie, TV, or videogame character, as opposed to the actual historical Nazis.

I agree with those who say that when it comes to controversial or offensive subject matter, behavior can make it or break it. If you are conducting yourself civilly, then you are much less likely to be taken for a troll or a troublemaker. On the other hand, running around acting like a douche just makes you look like you're itching for trouble.

And I also agree with those who say that while they may be offended by somebody's cosplay, it's not worth a confrontation. If the person IS dressed that way to stir up drama or get attention, then you just give them what they want by getting confrontational. If you're at a con, and you believe that person's attire or behavior violates con rules, then get con staff to handle it- it's their job.

As for the "blackface" costumes, When it comes to dressing/cosplaying outside your race or ethnicity, I draw the line at mockery. Using theatrical makeup or self tanner to darken your skin is one thing. "Blackface" is another. Doing a little homework and dressing up in a reasonable facsimile of Geisha costume is one thing, wearing an ersatz kimono that your T&A hang out of, and calling yourself a geisha is another.

x-Steffi-x
01-05-2011, 04:58 AM
Well, see this is a hard topic to come by. Since I'm half German, the topic of Nazis with me is pretty iffy. The way I see it as turning up specifically as a Nazi is quite distasteful, however if someone were to cosplay a character from an anime who happens to wear Nazi uniform then I think it's better, but as long as their actions are done in consideration and are mature about it then I won't have a problem.
I can take a joke, but when it turns extremely racist, I won't be afraid to step in and have a go at them.

On the matter of someone who is dressing up as a black person, wearing black make-up and wearing afro's, isn't necessarily bad. If you know they are doing it out of racism then it is, but if it's just for fun then I don't see what's wrong with it.

My overall thought is that, even though some people view it as harmless, some others may not, especially the general public who have no idea what's going on. If you are going to be an ass about it then people are going to dislike you and probably take some action, but if you are mature and considerate and are prepared as to what could be coming, then go ahead, cosplay a Nazi character or whatever.

Cherazor
01-05-2011, 06:06 AM
I'm going to jump in with Steffi on the topic of "using make-up to look 'black'". I remember reading somewhere that this is a bit of a European/not American thing, but we generally don't see "changing your skincolor" as something racist unless the person doing is doing it for that specific reason. of course, I fully admit I have no idea if that's exactly true or not, I must admit that I (and here I want to make clear that this might just be me, I can't speak for everyone in Europe :p), was very surprised when I saw a cosplayer who'd done a wonderful job on a cosplay got ripped to pieces online because of the simple reason that she'd used makeup to look darker than her natural skincolor. I've spoken to some of my friends about this, and they were as surprised as I was because we just don't see it as being racist. Just like some people paint their skin blue when cosplaying a character with blue skin, we think it's pretty natural some would do the same if they'd cosplay a character with a different natural skincolor.

*scratches head* I really hope I didn't offend anyone now, because that's definitely not what I was meaning to do.

SourCherryTwist
01-05-2011, 06:24 AM
time for my .02....

ok. as for nazi uniforms, I think there is a time and place for everything, including historical uniforms (and lets face it, they WERE pretty stylish) as long as the person IN said uniform doesnt go around committing hate crimes, I really dont see the issue. And this is coming from an Israeli Jew.

ladyxzeus
01-05-2011, 06:32 AM
A costume is always a costume, be it here, on comiket or anywhere else.

Nobody is offended when people dress up for historical movies either.

It all depends on the situation.

nannyogg
01-05-2011, 07:16 AM
I'm going to jump in with Steffi on the topic of "using make-up to look 'black'". I remember reading somewhere that this is a bit of a European/not American thing, but we generally don't see "changing your skincolor" as something racist unless the person doing is doing it for that specific reason. of course, I fully admit I have no idea if that's exactly true or not, I must admit that I (and here I want to make clear that this might just be me, I can't speak for everyone in Europe :p), was very surprised when I saw a cosplayer who'd done a wonderful job on a cosplay got ripped to pieces online because of the simple reason that she'd used makeup to look darker than her natural skincolor. I've spoken to some of my friends about this, and they were as surprised as I was because we just don't see it as being racist. Just like some people paint their skin blue when cosplaying a character with blue skin, we think it's pretty natural some would do the same if they'd cosplay a character with a different natural skincolor.

*scratches head* I really hope I didn't offend anyone now, because that's definitely not what I was meaning to do.

I think this old thread: http://www.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=181433 sums up the difference between darkening your skin tone with makeup (not offensive) and blackface (very offensive). Do a google images search for "blackface" to see what that term refers to.

kiratsukai
01-05-2011, 07:24 AM
kiratsukai: Do you have any pictures of these cosplayers that you mention? I'm sure with all the photographers there, pictures have to have been taken. I'm curious to see.

As requested ~

Day 2 Comiket Nazis: http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/
Day 3 Nazi (http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813192/)


I saw a few photos of the Japanese Nazi Cosplayers last month...and I have to admit...they look pretty cool. I didn't know they were suppose to be Nazis since the uniforms look so different, something that you see in Trinity Blood. Very fancy and beautiful.

I think you may possibly be mistaking cosplayers from a series like DOLLS (http://www.naked-ape.net/works/), 07-Ghost (http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/6600000/07-Ghost-07-ghost-6627391-1751-1169.jpg), Litchee Hikari Club (http://hox.fluffypress.com/archives/721) or Togainu no Chi (http://mangaworld.ca/images/699788821404.jpg) as "nazi cosplayers". It's true that nazi uniforms have had an obvious influence on comic and game art and that ocaisionally real uniforms or insignia make their way into media (Hellsing, Persona2, etc.) but for the most part the inspiration stops short of swastikas and nazis who do appear are almost always the "bad guys". Indiana Jones and the Inglorious Bastards also beat up on fictional nazis... Why should Japan get a bad wrap for doing the same?

Granted, I can think of 2 or 3 comics or games that feature nazism that would definately be deemed offensive in the West. But America's got some embarassing crap, too ~ like a real white supremacist movement and all the media (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR76l9mWVow) they produce.

I don't think nazis are "cool" here. I think people think their uniforms are cool and as a result, draw inspiration for them when it comes to intimidating military uniform design.

Junior high and elementary school kids carry marajuana leaf pencilcases and bags here and have no idea what they mean. They just think it looks cool.

doxiequeen1
01-05-2011, 07:45 AM
As requested ~

Day 2 Comiket Nazis: http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/

See..I think those are really regal neat uniforms despite what they were involved with.


I can easily understand someone wanting to wear one to a convention because of the beauty to them.

*flails* I'd take a picture with them if i saw them xD It's not like i'd ever cosplay one but I kinda respect people willing to. Takes balls dude.

MissLunatic
01-05-2011, 07:55 AM
"If someone from a country that was allied with Nazi Germany does the same, then that's perfectly fine." (sorry don't know how to quote correctly atm^^'')

Maybe I overread the irony. But it is clearly not.
Here in Germany all Nazy symbols and attire are clearly forbidden. We are still very sensitive about our past and even wearing something like Schroedinger's batch or what it is exactly or even other anime symbols that resamble clearly nazy symbols is a big taboo.
You might really get into trouble if you try to wear these.
Although personally I wouldn't really be offended by this kind of real Nazy costumes if they go as already discussed with a behaviour that shows the person isn't really supporting their cause I would feel at least a little awkward around them I guess.
The real anime costumes are another matter. I wouldn't mind them at all and sometimes I think that our history should be settled by now and not be mixed up with things that aren't really linked to it.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 08:10 AM
@kiratsukai Nice picture :D. (Only 3 of those guys are in actual nazi uniforms. The other two are the Military uniforms of Germany (not affiliated with the Nazi Party). :)

koi-ishly
01-05-2011, 08:11 AM
As requested ~

Day 2 Comiket Nazis: http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/

I gotta say that is visually quite intimidating... Even with the text and knowing the context that it's for. I think the intimidation that I'm feeling does have to into the fact that the USA culture studies WWII history extensively.

I don't think for our culture and I'm assuming for Europe, there is nothing that is going to be PC about a Nazi. Yes it is a costume, and it's not harming anyone to wear the clothing... but it is the symbolizism of the costume.

I'm 75% German, my dad lived in Europe, grew up with the war, spent some years in a refuge camp and fled to America. There's a lot more history to my Dad's story... but I'll spare you. I have family in Germany that I've never met. And there's only 10 people in the USA with my german last name. My Grandpa was the youngest of 12 siblings. Only with in the past 10 years has my dad gotten in contact... but I don't know much about it.

While I'm not offended by the cosplay, this is something in my opinion should be avoided. While I love to see me a good Germany from Hetalia, his clothing is not similar to the SS uniform.

Amanita
01-05-2011, 08:13 AM
I commented on Kiratsukai's photo- Those guys did do an amazing job on their costumes- I'm no expert, but they look practically re-enactment grade. I'm left to wonder- were these guys doing historical re-enactment cosplay, or did they get the idea from one of the countless fictional media which have featured Nazis?

Cherazor
01-05-2011, 08:33 AM
I think this old thread: http://www.cosplay.com/showthread.php?t=181433 sums up the difference between darkening your skin tone with makeup (not offensive) and blackface (very offensive). Do a google images search for "blackface" to see what that term refers to.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up to me. I must admit that I'd gotten impression from other threads where a lot of people have discouraged others to darken their skincolor because of it being racist (and in the photo I spoke of the person was called 'blackface' despite the fact that she'd just darkened her skincolor). So I sort of assumed it was considered the same thing. My apologies.

Kildread
01-05-2011, 08:36 AM
Personally, the uniforms look really good. It might be because I have some sort of dissociation between reality/fiction, but I don't see the costuming of a nazi any different than cosplaying murderous monsters.

As far as we're talking about the symbols and vibes given by our costumes, is it truly different to cosplay a fictional murderer over a real one?

The line should be drawn on the acts of a person, not the clothes they wear, that applies outside costume too...

Alexander VI
01-05-2011, 08:53 AM
In my country. Nazi uniforms or swastikas are not offensive. Some people even wear it as fashion.

If they are just portraying Nazis and are not really Nazis then it's fine with me.

Pocketfightr
01-05-2011, 09:14 AM
I'd probably feel uncomfortable being around the cosplayers in nazi outfits because of the stigma, but I would just move on. I figure it's up to the con to monitor what is and isn't appropriate, if the staff deems it ok it's not my authority to give anyone a hard time.

On the blackface subject, again it goes back to whether it looks mocking and the behavior of the person. If I thought it was tasteless, again, I would just move on. It's not in me to be confrontational.

lostsummoner
01-05-2011, 09:42 AM
I married into a Jewish family, originally from Israel. My family is originally from Germany. [[Yea, I got the 3rd degree questioning from my mother-in-law about it, not that I can blame her]]

I personally have no problem with historical reenactments, like if they're doing a presentation or whatnot, nor do I have a problem with someone wanting to make the costume just because of the challenge of it. I have a friend of mine who wears a similar outfit to the club, but with no nazi symbols what so ever. So no pins or swastikas or anything else to clue folks in that it's a nazi uniform. He just liked the style of the uniform itself. That too, I don't have a problem with. [[my friend is extremely open to everything, and will hold a religious meeting of sorts discussing different aspects of different religions. It's a lot of fun and informative at the same time]]

My wife however, is extremely uncomfortable when she sees them. Which makes sense as she has had family die in the camps and such. [[I don't ask for details and she doesn't give them to me]] But, she doesn't hold it against folks who decide to do the reenactments. We talked to one chap who did it, but he said he felt disgusting in the outfit, but the money he was getting paid to do it, was enough to deal with it.

Long story short, as long as you're not really a nazi, but dressing up and being polite and courteous and understanding if someone asks you to cover it up momentarily, then okay then.

Yea, I'm not sure where I'm going with all of this.

SweetOcarina
01-05-2011, 09:55 AM
History nut person speaking here.

I think it's highly inappropriate to dress up in Nazi uniforms at conventions. The uniforms are sexy, certainly, and for photoshoots or historical enactment purposes they are beautiful. But it also does show a certain degree of idolisation of the Nazis to go so far as to create those costumes. I would feel incredibly uncomfortable stood next to someone dressed as an SS Guard who was 'in character'. But why would you choose to cosplay those particular characters? Because you admire them? To make yourself look cool? Why do those costumes when there are a myriad of copy cat designs in various anime/manga/computer games that are less offensive?

This may also be due to the warped history that is taught in Japanese schools that focuses less on the European side of WW2 and more on the Pacific, only sanitising certain events for the masses (I believe Manchuria and Nanking are still not taught in Japanese schools, but feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

As for 'blacking up'... There are tons of black cosplays I would love to do, but I won't. I am a pasty white girl, and there's no way I would 'tan' myself black to do a costume. To me the act itself isn't the problem, but the cultural perceptions of it is. I don't want to be associated with minstrel shows or the like.

As someone in a relationship with a girl myself, I always find it amusing to see the stereotypes of gay people. I, personally, am not offended by them. I know plenty of people who live up to that stereotype perfectly, even if I am not one of them. I guess it's because I personally am not offended by things like Hard Gay that I see no harm in it. It's funny. Stereotypes are often funny because they're just a little bit true. Of course, I haven't seen the specifics of what you're talking about, so I can't comment explicitly.

I find it far more offensive when fanboys/fangirls do 'yuri' or 'yaoi' shoots just for attention and the +fav factor.

Codename Otacon
01-05-2011, 09:56 AM
I think you may possibly be mistaking cosplayers from a series like DOLLS (http://www.naked-ape.net/works/), 07-Ghost (http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/6600000/07-Ghost-07-ghost-6627391-1751-1169.jpg), Litchee Hikari Club (http://hox.fluffypress.com/archives/721) or Togainu no Chi (http://mangaworld.ca/images/699788821404.jpg) as "nazi cosplayers". It's true that nazi uniforms have had an obvious influence on comic and game art and that ocaisionally real uniforms or insignia make their way into media (Hellsing, Persona2, etc.) but for the most part the inspiration stops short of swastikas and nazis who do appear are almost always the "bad guys". Indiana Jones and the Inglorious Bastards also beat up on fictional nazis... Why should Japan get a bad wrap for doing the same?

All I can remember was that their costume was like J-Rock style. Man...should have save those photos!!

Also...did these people went:

http://tokyo-bittersweet.com/pics/10081333.jpg

Never seen a white Nazi uniform...

Lady Marionette
01-05-2011, 10:19 AM
Indirectly, as a DOLLS cosplayer, this thread is kind of turning me off from cosplaying Rami again for ALA since I never really connected the series to any kind of nazism. If people get offended enough, it can turn into irrational physical violence and that for me is a no-no. :/

Directly, costumes are costumes. If it looks cool, I wouldn't bat an eyelash. However if someone decided to do some 'Heil Hitlers' or salutes, THAT'S when I facepalm and shake my head in pity. So it all comes down to the attitude and the behavior behind it.

Lithium Flower
01-05-2011, 10:48 AM
Hide your jews.

Sorry if i offend anyone XD; <3 you all

I R OFFENDED >:|!!!!1111BBQ


I bring up the Hellsing subject again. People will change the swastika on Schroedinger's uniform (http://gallery.fanserviceftw.com/_images/f2f8944b5067909a7e36ee402b706dca/101%20-%20animated_gif%20hellsing_ultimate%20schr%C3%B6di nger.gif)to have a cat face (http://www.deviantart.com/download/137389981/Guten_Tag_Schrodinger_by_Xx_TragicPrince_xX.jpg) in place of the swastika. In some of the manga art the band has no insignia (http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:7uKbUK9G2ysA3M:http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t208/Deidara_arts_a_bang/Hellsing/Millennium/Schrodinger/Hellsing_Manga___Schrodinger_by_pho.jpg&t=1) at all. But one could argue, removing the swastika from the uniform doesn't make it any less true that Schroedinger is wearing a Hitler Youth get up.

So what is it that would offend someone, the image of the swastika? Or just knowing that the uniform is based off Nazi garb?



I don't even know why I am pretending to be half-assed meaningful and all.

Nazi cat just because (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaARSfKu3MU)

shadowbeam
01-05-2011, 11:20 AM
[QUOTE=MissLunatic;3746933
Here in Germany all Nazy symbols and attire are clearly forbidden. We are still very sensitive about our past and even wearing something like Schroedinger's batch or what it is exactly or even other anime symbols that resamble clearly nazy symbols is a big taboo.
You might really get into trouble if you try to wear these.[/QUOTE]

Although in the UK stuff like this isn't forbidden, it would probably be looked at pretty seriously, and imo, rightly so.

If someone is doing a cosplay of a Nazi character then fair enough, thats cosplay. Alot of people have said this already but in any other situation I'd be thinking 'WHY would you want to dress like this?'. Yeah fair enough just the uniform, but once you add the symbols for it on....just no.

If i saw someone dressed as a Nazi that wasn't a direct cosplay of a character i'd be really angry about it, i wouldnt say anything probably but i'd be really annoyed about it. I can't understand why people would think it's ok the dress as a Nazi for no other reason than to look like a Nazi.

I think for me the important difference is sadistic anime characters or similar are just that -- character, they aren't real. Nazi's were real, and what happened was horrendous, for prisoners and Nazi's themselves (already been said it was follow orders or be shot).

Maybe it is a more lenient thing in USA than UK perhaps?

koi-ishly
01-05-2011, 11:30 AM
Maybe it is a more lenient thing in USA than UK perhaps?

I don't think it's more lenient in the USA. We do have the KKK and the Skin Heads... which idolize Hitler and his beliefs. Granted that's a whole other topic...

Personally, I'm going to stay away from anything that is associating with Hitler. I stated it before, there is nothing PC about what he did. I understand that it is a costume, but you can't be blind to it's symbolizm and the outcome of Hitlers reign.

doxiequeen1
01-05-2011, 11:33 AM
why would you add the symbols?


Accuracy...Sorry but it's true, you went to all this work to make a stunning uniform and that's just it they symbols are part of the costume. And it is JUST A COSTUME!

Yes, Nazis DID exist but they don't anymore. I don't understand how people are so upset or angry about something that is just a costume :s

And the people about anime characters, their are people being horribly murdered everyday. So why would cosplay a murder (from a series but still) be any less offensive then cosplaying something involved in something horrible more then 50 years ago?

But everyone can have opinions, it's not like I have to agree with them xD

ToroSonyCat
01-05-2011, 12:09 PM
I would be a little shocked to see people dressed as Nazis and is in bad taste to dress as one for a convention but really as long as they are being mature about it, it really is just something that some people like to do without the intent of offending anyone and it doesn't mean that the person themselves believes in the ideals. History reinacting and all.
If they're immature and disrespectful about it, it's a whole different issue.

The whole blackface thing on the other hand is just generally offensive.

Yes, Nazis DID exist but they don't anymore.

There are people who do still believe in the ideals.
Also, I'm pretty sure some of the actual Nazis will still be alive.

nannyogg
01-05-2011, 12:31 PM
Yes, Nazis DID exist but they don't anymore. I don't understand how people are so upset or angry about something that is just a costume :s

Nazis do exist, and they are recruiting, right here in America: http://www.americannaziparty.com/
That there are still people who believe in that and fan the flames of hatred is a reason so many feel very, very uncomfortable with anyone who gives any sort of pro-nazi appearance in the present.

Volnixshin
01-05-2011, 12:36 PM
That's kind of my stance on the whole thing. I really don't care if people cosplay in such ways, as it really doesn't bother me. I don't find any of it offensive in the slightest.



completely agree. Also like Kira said, from what I understood, people have not been highly educated on the holocaust over there, and there are little to no jews in her country, and therefore things americans or jews would find highly offensive have little to no meaning

Rose of Battle
01-05-2011, 12:37 PM
I think the problem is that most of the Hitler cosplayers I see at conventions just do it purely for shock value. It seems very immature to me. (Though, I'm sure that there are some very mature people who dress up in Nazi garb. I've just mostly come across those who have been rude about it.)

This is a really sensitive topic, especially in Germany. I wrote an article in my college's magazine about some people in the world who actively deny that the Holocaust happened. Most of these people (or at least the ones I saw most actively publicized) were American and English.

As someone stated earlier with immature fanboys and girls posing for yaoi and yuri shots for attention, I am equally offended by those who just do the sieg heil pose or show off the symbols of the Nazi reign for attention. I am personally not offended when a mature cosplayer dresses up as Hitler and conducts him/herself appropriately. It takes balls to do that and a hell lot of maturity to do it right.

The main problem is that the Holocaust and Nazis were real. What they did directly affected people. Fictional characters are just that--fictional characters. Sure, I find some disgusting people in fiction fascinating, but I'm not going to idolize them.

x-Steffi-x
01-05-2011, 12:48 PM
I'm going to jump in with Steffi on the topic of "using make-up to look 'black'". I remember reading somewhere that this is a bit of a European/not American thing, but we generally don't see "changing your skincolor" as something racist unless the person doing is doing it for that specific reason. of course, I fully admit I have no idea if that's exactly true or not, I must admit that I (and here I want to make clear that this might just be me, I can't speak for everyone in Europe :p), was very surprised when I saw a cosplayer who'd done a wonderful job on a cosplay got ripped to pieces online because of the simple reason that she'd used makeup to look darker than her natural skincolor. I've spoken to some of my friends about this, and they were as surprised as I was because we just don't see it as being racist. Just like some people paint their skin blue when cosplaying a character with blue skin, we think it's pretty natural some would do the same if they'd cosplay a character with a different natural skincolor.

*scratches head* I really hope I didn't offend anyone now, because that's definitely not what I was meaning to do.

Bold: Agreed, it's like really white people want to have nicely dark, tanned skin to look more "healthier", in some countries, such as Africa and the like, it's become a trend to bleach their skin to look more "lighter". If people think that having darker make-up just to become more accurate to the character is wrong, then they need to seriously open their eyes. What about Ganguro or Manba? Does that make the Japanese (or anyone else persuing the fashion) racist? Not much different to cosplay really, except that it's a fashion.
It's obviously not wrong for people to become so tanned they are a completely different skin tone, so why should using make-up be? I'd rather use make-up or fake tan (or the like) to make myself more accurate to a character than properly tan or bleach my skin (if I were to be a darker skinned person). I like my pale skin and I wouldn't change it for the long term.

I really feel for that poor girl that got ripped apart from some stupid closed-minded people.

I can't stress this enough: If it's not done for the intentions of hurting other people's feelings then don't give a second thought on it. If it is then by all means rant about it to the offender.

kyuubified
01-05-2011, 12:55 PM
Honestly, I don't like it. I usually am really liberal and not easily offended, but I think people, especially those who are not very educated on the matter, will think it's okay just because it happened a very long time ago. And cosplaying stereotypes just seems very ignorant to me.

Ultimately though, even though I do not agree with it and it makes me uncomfortable, I wouldn't say/do anything about it; it is their choice, and who am I to tell them what is right or wrong? (asuming from the picture, they are adults and can make their own decisions).

I would hope the person who is cosplaying isn't actually a neo-nazi, racist, and/or homophobe, and they're only cosplaying, just as we don't actually believe we are the character we cosplay.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 01:10 PM
As requested ~

Day 2 Comiket Nazis: http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/
Day 3 Nazi (http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813192/)



I'm gonna have to say. Told you so. Those uniforms are damn sexy. Take off the armbands, and i'd fap to that.

...okay i honestly wouldn't "fap" to anything (i'm a girl) but you get my point. They're sexy uniforms. So, if i were in a country and culture where that was acceptable to wear, i'd do it. Its just a sexy uniform.

I R OFFENDED >:|!!!!1111BBQ

I'M SORRY /wrists

Okay, I'm going to say this right now: This entire thread is making me personally extremely uncomfortable.

But thats due to my own views on this entire subject clashing greatly with everyone else's.. and it just... makes for umcomfy. I personally think everything that can be said, has been said on the subject already now...

Some people think its okay, some would get offended. Sounds like thats all there is to the fact.

I personally don't mind it. Its just a costume.

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 01:26 PM
Okay, I'm going to say this right now: This entire thread is making me personally extremely uncomfortable.

Me as well, but in a different way. ^^;;

Axelai
01-05-2011, 01:29 PM
Me as well, but in a different way. ^^;;

*brofists for uncomfortableness*

If you ever want to hear my views, btw, you can PM me. Since you said once before that you did. *too lazy to pm*

alpha_helix
01-05-2011, 01:33 PM
Re: skin darkening and blackface

Ok, I know this may run the risk of derailing this thread, and I know it's been discussed several times before in other threads, but I do feel the need to address it.

There is a humongous difference between giving yourself a bronzed glow/getting a tan and trying to adopt the appearance of a whole other race. In the US at least, deliberately trying to look like you're another race (usually black) is still linked to blackface and all of the messed up stereotypes and mistreatment of people of color that came with it. No, professionally done makeup is not the same as blackface, but they're still linked, and some people may take offense. It's perfectly fine for people to take offense, given the history of whites masquerading as black caricatures in minstrel shows and the like, and I do think that anyone who makes a controversial costuming choice like this needs to understand the full scope of the issue.

And as far as intentions go, honestly, they don't mean squat. Nobody knows your intentions unless you explain it expressly. Even then, they probably saw it first and got offended before you had the chance to explain, and by then the hurt has already been done, and the best you can do is offer a sincere apology (and please no, "...but it's ok because I was trying to be a specific character, and that makes everything fine and dandy!") and hope they accept it.

However, all of this (and in, pretty much everything past page two...) is getting really far from the point of this thread, which is how these controversial things relate in cultures where they aren't such a big deal. I stand by what I said earlier, it's fine to be quietly offended, but there's no need to go and cause a stink lest you look like a close-minded tourist forcing your ideals on people who don't live with the same cultural norms.

MissLunatic
01-05-2011, 01:55 PM
Yes, Nazis DID exist but they don't anymore. I don't understand how people are so upset or angry about something that is just a costume :s


Well, the problem is partly that some people would take it for real especially if a German wore a Nazi uniform regardless of his or her intention. (I think mostly of ppl who aren’t into cosplay themselves and possibly don’t even know the concept at all.)
And I can’t really blame them particularly if the person was one to be directly or via family involved in that matter. Besides as already stated it would play down a part of history and possibly make ppl less sensitive towards that topic.

Btw what is so sexy about those uniforms? xD Maybe I’m just not that attracted by military style or the fact that they aren’t exotic at all from my point of view xD.

PS: I don't want to flame, just to state my own opinion^^.

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 02:24 PM
*brofists for uncomfortableness*

If you ever want to hear my views, btw, you can PM me. Since you said once before that you did. *too lazy to pm*

*brofists back*
TOTALLY AM. INFORMATION HERE I COME.

koi-ishly
01-05-2011, 02:32 PM
why would you add the symbols?


Accuracy...Sorry but it's true, you went to all this work to make a stunning uniform and that's just it they symbols are part of the costume. And it is JUST A COSTUME!

Yes, Nazis DID exist but they don't anymore. I don't understand how people are so upset or angry about something that is just a costume :s

And the people about anime characters, their are people being horribly murdered everyday. So why would cosplay a murder (from a series but still) be any less offensive then cosplaying something involved in something horrible more then 50 years ago?

But everyone can have opinions, it's not like I have to agree with them xD

I think you missunderstood my term of symbolism. Symbolism is when you take and object and it takes on a definition of something. Like Mikey Mouse, what do you think when you see the mouse? Disney. It's the icon/symbol of Disney.

The Nazi uniform symbolizes horrible acts that went with it.

Now why this isn't just a costume...
My family is from Germany. I'm 1st generation American. My father lived in a refuge camp for a good 2 years of his life in deplorable conditions, his older sister did not survive. He left the camp at age 7 to the USA. I techniquely could not be here if he had not survived.

Do you understand why now people can take this and say, "IT"S NOT JUST A COSTUME?"

Nazi's do exist still. The KKK aren't nazi's? So, that statement is invalid.

My dad is living proof the war, and there are others who survived. You can't say that something that happend more that 50 years ago makes it ok. If you're read a previous post, Germany is against portraying the Nazi uniform. The country where the Nazi's came from will not support it for the fact of the history.

So, I will not defend anyone wearing a Nazi uniform and the comments they will recieve.

You are in titled to your opinion, but please do not degrade my opinion.

*** For me I'm going to stop reading this thread. It is an uncomfortable subject. And I'm sorry if anything that I have said offended anyone, but this topic I'm getting me emotional so, I'm done.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 02:48 PM
"The KKK aren't nazi's? So, that statement is invalid"

Correction:
Sharing same some or most of the same views =/= same organization or group.

There is about a 60 year difference between the foundations of each group.

The statement is invalid because of existence Neo-Nazi groups.

Avatar Alvaang
01-05-2011, 02:59 PM
For the people saying "it's just a costume" what if you saw a kkk outfit at a convention? Is it still just a costume?

I just dont understand how someone would want to Cosplay a member of a REAL LIFE hate group. People do not get offeneded when people wear death eater costumes (Harrry potter bad guys) because they did not affect anyone in RL. So there is a MAJOR difference...

Axelai
01-05-2011, 03:08 PM
The statement is invalid because of existence Neo-Nazi groups.

Except the Neo Nazis are nowhere near the existence of the original Nazis. They're not billions with power. They're in the hundreds at most.

For the people saying "it's just a costume" what if you saw a kkk outfit at a convention? Is it still just a costume?


I'd think they look damn silly wearing white sheets on their heads.

The difference in that, is that the KKK wore unattractive outfits, and were all more of a tight knit group of hate.

The Nazis, on the other hand, had sexy clothing. As weird as that is for a lot of people, its a huge deciding factor.

Once again. In a culture where thats NOT POLITICALLY INCORRECT, why not wear an outfit thats so sexy?

By western standards, we recount too much on the Holocaust to wear anything Nazi-esque. But in eastern standards, they weren't so much connected to it (as in, they're all asian, not jewish, and don't have jewish friends, etc), so its seen more as a distant chunk of history than a terrible recent event.

Think like, someone like myself cosplaying as a Civil War soldier. Many people died in that. More people than any other American war. But no one is offended by it (at least where i live) because no one is connected emotionally to it anymore. Now, if i were to wear a Nothern side of the Civil War costume in the South, i might get some hate.

Its a matter of culture and perspective. What we're offended by isn't offensive in Japan.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 03:17 PM
Except the Neo Nazis are nowhere near the existence of the original Nazis. They're not billions with power. They're in the hundreds at most.
True, but the ideas of Nazism still exist and the fact the people still consider themselves Nazis invalidates the statement "Nazis no longer exists".

doxiequeen1
01-05-2011, 03:21 PM
The Nazis, on the other hand, had sexy clothing. As weird as that is for a lot of people, its a huge deciding factor.

Once again. In a culture where thats NOT POLITICALLY INCORRECT, why not wear an outfit thats so sexy?



this. <3

doxiequeen1
01-05-2011, 03:22 PM
Okay on my "nazi's no longer exist" comment. Okay; they do exist. But not in the powerful mass-murdering way they used to. Now they are a group that have beliefs and discriminate against a certain group of people. Not really something to fear anymore.

I don't have any personal ties in with the holocaust I can understand it offending some people but just because they dress up as something doesn't mean they share those beliefs. And I think it's rude to assume the person wearing a fancy uniform is a bad hateful person when maybe they just wanted to wear a fancy uniform.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 03:24 PM
True, but the ideas of Nazism still exist and the fact the people still consider themselves Nazis invalidates the statement "Nazis no longer exists".

And still people consider themselves KKK members.

And a lot of people consider themselves Prussian even though Prussia doesn't exist anymore.

Fact of the matter: They don't exist anymore. All of the people who say they still do are pretty much a joke. Nazi Germany is long gone. They lost power a LONG time ago.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 03:32 PM
And still people consider themselves KKK members.

And a lot of people consider themselves Prussian even though Prussia doesn't exist anymore.


Fact of the matter: They don't exist anymore. All of the people who say they still do are pretty much a joke. Nazi Germany is long gone. They lost power a LONG time ago.Nazism doesn't need Nazi Germany to still exist.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 03:34 PM
Nazism doesn't need Nazi Germany to still exist.

You're not really understanding what I'm saying.

Their numbers are so small, its not as big of an issue. And they're not Nazi Germany, which is what the uniforms are from.

The point of this thread is on whether wearing the uniforms is okay or not. Considering Neo Nazis these days are racist skinheads with no fashion sense, i don't see Nazi Germany's uniforms in any way connected to Neo Nazis.

EDIT: Wording differently.

Neo Nazis =/= Nazi Germany Nazis in any way. They're not the same thing. At All. IN ANY FORM other than their want for a single, Aryan race. Which, if you aren't educated, may seem like a huge factor. But its not. The Neo Nazis are stupid, and do not understand the original Nazi Germany in any way other than thinking its "cool" to want to kill people.

So saying they're the same thing is like an insult to Nazi Germany. Which i know a lot of you wouldn't mind doing, but the point is still valid. Neo Nazis are NOT Nazi Germany Nazis. Nazi Germany's Nazi regime is LONG GONE, and is NOT COMING BACK.

Neo Nazis are NOT Nazis. They are a joke.

And before any of you ask: I'm neither. I love all. I'm just trying to explain here... Neo Nazis aren't Nazis. End of story.

(I think people forget to realize that Nazi Germany was an entire country, with its good and bad points, with its citizens... with everything. No one remembers that. So saying that Neo Nazis, a group of stupid white supremists, is anything similar to an entire country of power... that feels wrong to me )

Arieru
01-05-2011, 03:34 PM
For the people saying "it's just a costume" what if you saw a kkk outfit at a convention? Is it still just a costume?

I just dont understand how someone would want to Cosplay a member of a REAL LIFE hate group. People do not get offeneded when people wear death eater costumes (Harrry potter bad guys) because they did not affect anyone in RL. So there is a MAJOR difference...

This is how I feel. Why would you want to parade around in a costume with negative connotations and expect everything to be ok? I personally wouldn't. I can understand if you're cosplaying a character that happened to be associated with it (like Germany from APH), but just to wear the uniform because it looks cool?

I think if you are dressing as character with a nazi costume, then leave the swastikas and nazi salutes out. As for the blackface, tans are ok, but minstrel-style blackface? Just no.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 03:41 PM
You're not really understanding what I'm saying.

Their numbers are so small, its not as big of an issue. And they're not Nazi Germany, which is what the uniforms are from.

The point of this thread is on whether wearing the uniforms is okay or not. Considering Neo Nazis these days are racist skinheads with no fashion sense, i don't see Nazi Germany's uniforms in any way connected to Neo Nazis.

That's because my first post was correcting how A maybe similar to B, but that doesn't mean A = B. Then I'm correcting why the statement "Nazis don't exist" is false. Both statements are logical fallacies that I made correction to.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 03:43 PM
That's because my first post was correcting how A maybe similar to B, but that doesn't mean A = B. Then I'm correcting why the statement "Nazis don't exist" is false. Both statements are logical fallacies that I made correction to.

Nazis don't exist anymore.

A stupid group of white supremists with a similar name and skewed intentions vaguely resembling the actual nazis do.

Nazis were an entire political group, not just a white supremist group.

EDIT: Think of it this way. Neo Nazis are as much of Nazis as Olive Garden is Italian.

Angathol
01-05-2011, 03:48 PM
Except the Neo Nazis are nowhere near the existence of the original Nazis. They're not billions with power. They're in the hundreds at most.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

It's also silly to act like they're powerless and benign, let alone restricted to only a few hundred people, when they still have related active political parties today. Some of these parties can actually seat state parliament members in Germany.

The difference in that, is that the KKK wore unattractive outfits, and were all more of a tight knit group of hate.

The Nazis, on the other hand, had sexy clothing. As weird as that is for a lot of people, its a huge deciding factor.

Once again. In a culture where thats NOT POLITICALLY INCORRECT, why not wear an outfit thats so sexy?

http://i51.tinypic.com/mvrg1z.jpg

Please stop using your uniform fetish to justify this kind of garbage.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 03:51 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

It's also silly to act like they're powerless and benign, let alone restricted to only a few hundred people, when they still have related active political parties today. Some of these parties can actually seat state parliament members in Germany.

I stand corrected.

I had only been thinking of the US groups, not other countries. As i have faced many... many Neo Nazi groups here on my own, and they all seemed damn pitiful. Excuse me for believing the other countries were the same way.

Disregard my earlier comments, then.

Though it doesn't stop the uniforms from being damn sexy.



Please stop using your uniform fetish to justify this kind of garbage.

Its not a uniform fetish. And i'm not justifying it. I hate how i can't speak my mind without people making it personal.

What the nazis did was WRONG. It was a TERRIBLE POINT IN HISTORY. And i too, have had family members die in the Holocaust.

But that doesn't stop the point that the uniforms look good. And in a country where its not seen as horrific as we see it as, they don't see it as a problem.

Would i dress in a Nazi uniform? HELL NO.

Would i be offended if i saw someone in the US in a Nazi uniform? YES.

Would i be offended if i saw someone in Japan in a Nazi uniform at an Anime Convention? NO.

Because, simply, its not politically incorrect there. Who am i to judge what they want to wear?

Don't make this personal. I'm not in favor of anything the Nazis did. I'm just speaking my mind here. Then you people have to go make it personal against me.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 03:57 PM
Nazis don't exist anymore.

A stupid group of white supremists with a similar name and skewed intentions vaguely resembling the actual nazis do.

Nazis were an entire political group, not just a white supremist group.
There is the American Nazi Party (a third party in the United States), so they are a political group. Also the American third position party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Third_Position_Party), another political party.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 03:59 PM
There is the American Nazi Party (a third party in the United States), so they are a political group. Also the American third position party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Third_Position_Party), another political party.

*points to previous post* I stand corrected on that topic. You're right. They exist.

Though the point still stands that they are nowhere as powerful as they used to.

Ineedaname9
01-05-2011, 04:03 PM
Am I the only one who thought "I would totally do that."?

I'm sorry but I am a history buff and those costumes put sparkles in my eyes.

I mean if you really get down to it as long as I am not costuming as Hitler (or any known figure of Nazi Germany) then how can it be offending? He is the one who take majority of the blame for it and a lot were just 'following orders.' There are also several other things that lead to the holocaust that were not 'we hate jews' but evidence that explain why the german people followed Hitler.

I'd probably take of the swastika though. That has way to symbolic of a meaning, i.e religious and historically.

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 04:04 PM
Kinda makes me irritated though how our world's education system is. Why wouldn't you talk about the Holocaust, and every other genocide, even if it related to almost none of your countries people? I know here in America there are genocides that I have probably never heard of, or rarely heard of. :(
It sucks because learning about genocides teaches everyone how horrible the human race can be, and how today we can prevent such a thing from happening again. (Or at least, when it does happen it's stopped rather quickly.) Hell if I could be leader of the world and my word was law, (COSPLAY ITEMS FOR EVERYONE!) I would require in every single school that there was a class just about the genocides of the world. :\
.....ANYWAY. We should get back on topic. .w.

Angathol
01-05-2011, 04:06 PM
Its not a uniform fetish.

I'm gonna have to say. Told you so. Those uniforms are damn sexy. Take off the armbands, and i'd fap to that.

uhhh

And i'm not justifying it. I hate how i can't speak my mind without people making it personal.

Don't make this personal. I'm not in favor of anything the Nazis did. I'm just speaking my mind here. Then you people have to go make it personal against me.

You've been derailing this thread by babbling about the uniforms being sexy from your very first post and now any references to that are "making it personal?" It's kind of hard to have a serious discussion about this sort of thing when this thread is rife with Nazi humour and uniform fangirls.

And then people wonder why Hetalia fans get so much flack for cultural insensitivity.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:13 PM
You've been derailing this thread by babbling about the uniforms being sexy from your very first post and now any references to that are "making it personal?" It's kind of hard to have a serious discussion about this sort of thing when this thread is rife with Nazi humour and uniform fangirls.

And then people wonder why Hetalia fans get so much flack for cultural insensitivity.

Ew. Come on. This is why i didn't want to get involved in this anyway. You're making it 100% personal against me.

And now insulting me due to the fact i watch Hetalia? Come on. How rude can you get?

My entire point is that Nazi uniforms, designed by a designer label in Germany, are sexy. If you don't want to go that far, then say that the people wearing them thought they were visually attractive and wanted to wear them. And, as its not politically incorrect there, they wore them. You're 100% ignoring any points i have made and are just taking jabs at me personally. As stupid as it is, the uniforms are visually attractive, regardless of if i think so, or if the cosplayer thinks so, or whoever. And i'm not the only who believes that. Look at the other posts.

This has nothing to do with the fact i like Hetalia. I was a WW2 buff before Hetalia was even created :'|

No offense. But you're kinda being a douche. I know i screwed up on the Neo Nazi thing. And i admitted i was wrong. But taking jabs at me for pointing out the uniforms are sexy (designed by Hugo Boss, people) is really really rude.

uhhh

*eye roll* I put right after that i was joking. Geez, can't take a joke?

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 04:16 PM
uhhh





You've been derailing this thread by babbling about the uniforms being sexy from your very first post and now any references to that are "making it personal?" It's kind of hard to have a serious discussion about this sort of thing when this thread is rife with Nazi humour and uniform fangirls.

And then people wonder why Hetalia fans get so much flack for cultural insensitivity.You created a strawman. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 04:18 PM
There are also several other things that lead to the holocaust that were not 'we hate Jews' but evidence that explain why the German people followed Hitler.


Yes. The Holocaust started because Hitler blamed Germany's economic problems on mainly the Jews (Because many were wealthy. I'm not an expert on Judaism, but they kinda have some sort of code to aim for the best. Because of that pressure from their parents and religion, Jews often got top grades and went to good schools to become bankers, doctors, other successful jobs.) and other races that were 'invading' Germany and ruining the 'pure German blood.' And then of course there is eugenics.... I could seriously go on for paragraphs and paragraphs, but I'm already a flaming hypocrite from my last post, "Now, let's all get back on topic".
Ever gone to a Holocaust museum? Totally recommend Skoki's in Illinois. Best. Place. Ever.
Until my sister broke into tears the last five minutes we were there. @.@

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:19 PM
You created a strawman. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man)

Ooh, theres a term for it?

Srsly.

x-Steffi-x
01-05-2011, 04:19 PM
I think you missunderstood my term of symbolism. Symbolism is when you take and object and it takes on a definition of something. Like Mikey Mouse, what do you think when you see the mouse? Disney. It's the icon/symbol of Disney.

The Nazi uniform symbolizes horrible acts that went with it.

Now why this isn't just a costume...
My family is from Germany. I'm 1st generation American. My father lived in a refuge camp for a good 2 years of his life in deplorable conditions, his older sister did not survive. He left the camp at age 7 to the USA. I techniquely could not be here if he had not survived.

Do you understand why now people can take this and say, "IT"S NOT JUST A COSTUME?"

Nazi's do exist still. The KKK aren't nazi's? So, that statement is invalid.

My dad is living proof the war, and there are others who survived. You can't say that something that happend more that 50 years ago makes it ok. If you're read a previous post, Germany is against portraying the Nazi uniform. The country where the Nazi's came from will not support it for the fact of the history.

So, I will not defend anyone wearing a Nazi uniform and the comments they will recieve.

You are in titled to your opinion, but please do not degrade my opinion.

*** For me I'm going to stop reading this thread. It is an uncomfortable subject. And I'm sorry if anything that I have said offended anyone, but this topic I'm getting me emotional so, I'm done.

I completely agree with this statement. During World War II, one of my Polish relatives (not by blood but my Mom [who is German] has a Polish stepfather and his father was this certain relative) helped bring food and bread to Jew refugees, one day a Nazi approached him, and if he wasn't a convincing liar, he would have been shot right there and then. But luckily he got away with it with the Nazi soldier being none the wiser.
I was told that story when I visited Poland with my parents.
I admit, our trip to Poland was mostly visiting our Polish relatives, however, we did go to Auschwitz, and since that day at the concentration camp, made me despise the Nazi's and the history of Germany even more. I hate it even more when people mock Germany and blame every single person for the death of the Jews without hardly any knowledge of what truly went on.

I for one am a person who is interested in the facts of World War II but the reason why I am iffy on the subject of dressing up as a Nazi is just not right... Whether the person in costume is sophisticaed and mature about it, it just reminds people of what happened more than 50 years ago and that can have really bad and difficult effects on people. The amount of times I was called a Nazi or Hitler at school was unbelievable, I'm not proud of what happened, heck no German is. But it's just annoying to see it all being brought up again due to a single costume.
I think another reason for hating the use of dressing up in a Nazi uniform is all thanks to little Prince Harry - You can all imagine why.
I find it distasteful and think there are plenty of other characters or things to dress up in or cosplay, why do people have to pick a Nazi uniform. It's not creative at all.

It's not just the person dressing up as a Nazi that will have problems, but the fact it will start a debate and at a con where a lot of the people are immature will start making mockery and racist jokes about World War II and Germans and that for me, would be the final straw.
It will create unnecessary controversy and debates which could have all been avoided if that person didn't dress up as a Nazi.

Some other people may think, hey, it's no big deal, but to other people like me, many Germans and others it does matter.
You wouldn't understand if you aren't in our position.

History is history, it remains in the past, it's for education purposes not cosplay.

That's what I think.

Angathol
01-05-2011, 04:20 PM
But taking jabs at me for pointing out the uniforms are sexy (designed by Hugo Boss, people) is really really rude.

Not when you've brought it up at least six times in this thread alone and won't drop the subject. You may have made some other valid points but this one is highly opinion based and tacking it on after what would otherwise be a valid point (i.e. BUT THEY'RE SEXY) just kind of degrades whatever point you're trying to make.

For the record, the Hetalia reference wasn't even directed at you, but there's a whole other can of worms right there.

My opinion is that Nazi uniforms really have no place at anime conventions. What's their purpose there anyway, besides cosplaying a specific character who would wear that uniform? I've seen my share of ~edgy~ folks going around with swastikas - or even doing skits with them - and it makes my stomach turn.

Avatar Alvaang
01-05-2011, 04:21 PM
Man this thread is heating up! But im glad we are all doing it in a mature way for the most part.

So far what I got from this thread is that if a costume is stylish and offensive it is cosplayable to the people saying it's just a costume vs a ugly costume that's still offensive is not cosplayable at all. Just bc something is good looking makes it ok? Sorry but I'm
A little confused? There are many stylish uniforms that are not offensive so why choose to be a Nazi? The attention one recieves is not going to be positive or the most part or they are RL trolls?

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:22 PM
Not when you've brought it up at least six times in this thread alone and won't drop the subject.

For the record, the Hetalia reference wasn't even directed at you, but there's a whole other can of worms right there.

I was being playful. Learn to take a joke.

And read more posts than the ones you can use against me. After all, you're 100% ignoring every other valid response.

This is why we can't have nice things.

Man this thread is heating up! But im glad we are all doing it in a mature way for the most part.

How is ANYTHING Angathol saying mature? :'| Its jabs at me personally, not even the topic at hand.


So far what I got from this thread is that if a costume is stylish and offensive it is cosplayable to the people saying it's just a costume vs a ugly costume that's still offensive is not cosplayable at all. Just bc something is good looking makes it ok? Sorry but I'm
A little confused? There are many stylish uniforms that are not offensive so why choose to be a Nazi? The attention one recieves is not going to be positive or the most part or they are RL trolls?

Well, like i said, its offensive in the west. Its not offensive in Japan. So its on the same level as any other uniform.

Hence why i said if i saw someone in the US cosplaying a Nazi, i'd probably be uncomfortable with that. Its offensive here.

sam vimes
01-05-2011, 04:29 PM
How is ANYTHING Angathol saying mature? :'| Its jabs at me personally, not even the topic at hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV5qqhisaEw&feature=related

I just had to.

SweetOcarina
01-05-2011, 04:29 PM
Well, like i said, its offensive in the west. Its not offensive in Japan. So its on the same level as any other uniform.

Hence why i said if i saw someone in the US cosplaying a Nazi, i'd probably be uncomfortable with that. Its offensive here.

I'd say Japanese people would be bewildered/offended to see Nazis at a con as they aren't characters... Unless we're saying that this is meant to be Himmler and Goebbels and Hess or something. Because then it's idolisation of war criminals.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:30 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pV5qqhisaEw&feature=related

I just had to.

Inorite? I knew i should have stayed out of this thread XD;; I didn't think anyone would get so offended at me for saying the uniforms are sexy.

Especially since its obvious he be trollin. I gotta learn to stop feeding trolls.

I'd say Japanese people would be bewildered/offended to see Nazis at a con as they aren't characters... Unless we're saying that this is meant to be Himmler and Goebbels and Hess or something. Because then it's idolisation of war criminals.

Obviously not if the people are cosplaying them openly... I know theres a fashion trend in Japan to dress somewhat Nazi-ishly (minus the Swastikas, mind you). If it offensive there, its to a much less extent than it is here.

Even mentioning nazis can get you in huge trouble here in San Fran. Wearing those costumes openly at a con without getting tackled? Must be way less offensive.

Ritsu H Saotome
01-05-2011, 04:37 PM
I actually don't care what people think on the uniforms, If the person is willing to take a risk, that's his or her's decision.

note: Didn't know you can get in trouble mentioning Nazis in San Fran.

yamibakura03
01-05-2011, 04:38 PM
Obviously not if the people are cosplaying them openly... I know theres a fashion trend in Japan to dress somewhat Nazi-ishly (minus the Swastikas, mind you).
You mean this? (look at the bottom part of the Page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_chic

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:42 PM
note: Didn't know you can get in trouble mentioning Nazis in San Fran.

I mentioned them to a friend of mine (an SF native) and they stared at me like, "Dude don't talk about that." and i'm like "...what?"

SF is crazy Politically Correct sometimes.

You mean this? (look at the bottom part of the Page)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_chic

Yeah, that.

Clyde_2.0
01-05-2011, 04:44 PM
For some reason this thread makes me want to invite Meg back...

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 04:44 PM
Just saying, I am loving this thread. ^.^
Different viewpoints where both sides both hit the heart and make sense....Yet you must only choose one! Riding the fence is weak! Truly, my opinion from my first post has changed to something different! I have a new perspective and new light on this issue.
Bwahahaa, SCIENCE!
No I am not a freak. Just amazed at how such a thread is making me THINK.
And the pm convo I'm having with Alexai is making me pumped. I'm thinking like a fiend even though my brain is practically dead today! I's stupendous, makes me adore history even more than I usually do. (Even though Alexai probably thinks I'm retarded. I swear to you I am not! Just stubborn and stupid! Annndd I keep forgetting to read things out fully and think before replying...T__T ((Wait...)) )
^^

aoisakura
01-05-2011, 04:46 PM
Though it is rather interesting to see that people would find someone putting a ton of make up on to look black offensive (not saying all, saying some) like they do on some japanese TV shows, however it's not racist to try to look asian or white out and look more caucasian. :\

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:49 PM
For some reason this thread makes me want to invite Meg back...

Inorite? Meg was quite the... nazi themed fellow.

Just saying, I am loving this thread. ^.^
Different viewpoints where both sides both hit the heart and make sense....Yet you must only choose one! Riding the fence is weak! Truly, my opinion from my first post has changed to something different! I have a new perspective and new light on this issue.
Bwahahaa, SCIENCE!
No I am not a freak. Just amazed at how such a thread is making me THINK.
And the pm convo I'm having with Alexai is making me pumped. I'm thinking like a fiend even though my brain is practically dead today! I's stupendous, makes me adore history even more than I usually do. (Even though Alexai probably thinks I'm retarded. I swear to you I am not! Just stubborn and stupid! Annndd I keep forgetting to read things out fully and think before replying...T__T ((Wait...)) )
^^

Hahaha thats okay XD;; I gotta learn to stop expecting you to know what i'm talking about when i go on a tangent. I should like... stop quoting things in our PMs, too, and just say it in my own words. ^^;; <3

Though it is rather interesting to see that people would find someone putting a ton of make up on to look black offensive (not saying all, saying some) like they do on some japanese TV shows, however it's not racist to try to look asian or white out and look more caucasian. :\

Micheal Jackson <3

Remember how things can be racist from one side and not the other? Like how white people can't be racist against blacks, but blacks can be racist against whites?

Funny world we live in.

Ion
01-05-2011, 04:50 PM
I'm not an expert on Judaism, but they kinda have some sort of code to aim for the best. Because of that pressure from their parents and religion, Jews often got top grades and went to good schools to become bankers, doctors, other successful jobs.) and other races that were 'invading' Germany and ruining the 'pure German blood.'

Meh, since this is way off topic anyway:

I can kind of fill in some things for you. For what it's worth, in the Middle Ages, the Jews were barred from certain trades while money-handling occupations were left wide open as governments deemed these types of jobs as immoral or unfit for Christians. It goes back to usury etc. and how they could not charge interest to fellow Jews but there were no stipulations about interest charges to anyone else.

Regardless, they worked where they could in other fields and excelled in the financial trades as there was very limited competition from Christians and others. This is part of how the whole stereotype of Jewish people and money came to be. Obviously times have changed and there are many different people working in finance, but you can see how it was easy for Hitler to point them out and blame them for the country's financial and economic woes as they have had a long history of handling money (because that was more or less where they were pushed).

SweetOcarina
01-05-2011, 04:51 PM
No one would condone dressing up as the atomic bomb and going to a convention. That killed less people than the Nazis. Guess the costume just isn't 'interesting' enough.

x-Steffi-x
01-05-2011, 04:51 PM
Though it is rather interesting to see that people would find someone putting a ton of make up on to look black offensive (not saying all, saying some) like they do on some japanese TV shows, however it's not racist to try to look asian or white out and look more caucasian. :\

It depends. I dont' personally find that offensive, but on the matter of dressing up as Nazis I do find offensive.

In conclusion to this thread, I think there is no right or wrong opinion/answer. To some it is offensive whilst to others it's not.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but one shouldn't rule out another persons opinion just because they simply don't agree.
It's a sensitive subject which shouldn't be taken lightly and therefore should be discussed in utmost maturity.
Otherwise I'm going to assume you are just another one of those closed minded people who think it's okay to be racist or an ass.

(This wasn't directed at you btw Aoisakura, just to the whole thread in general).

Axelai
01-05-2011, 04:52 PM
No one would condone dressing up as the atomic bomb and going to a convention. That killed less people than the Nazis. Guess the costume just isn't 'interesting' enough.

Like i said a million times before...

...How is cosplaying as an Atomic Bomb visually appealing?

In more... politically correct terms. Nazi uniforms are just... visually appealing to people. Designed by a designer fashion label. They're just attractive.

I highly doubt they're cosplaying the outfits outright to offend people. Maybe thats part of the appeal (kinda like a troll) but its not the 100% appeal.

sam vimes
01-05-2011, 04:55 PM
Remember how things can be racist from one side and not the other? Like how white people can't be racist against blacks, but blacks can be racist against whites?

Funny world we live in.

Thank you, every right wing talk show pundit ever. I did not realize you had an account on this board.

If this thread is still around at 10 PM EST, I am going throw myself into it, merrily drinking as I go.

SweetOcarina
01-05-2011, 04:58 PM
Like i said a million times before...

...How is cosplaying as an Atomic Bomb visually appealing?

In more... politically correct terms. Nazi uniforms are just... visually appealing to people. Designed by a designer fashion label. They're just attractive.

I highly doubt they're cosplaying the outfits outright to offend people. Maybe thats part of the appeal (kinda like a troll) but its not the 100% appeal.

Visually appealing or not, the thread asks if it's offensive. I wouldn't dress up as a Japanese soldier, though I might cosplay a Japanese soldier from a series. I wouldn't do their WW2 uniforms as some kind of homage to them because they murdered more Chinese than Nazi's murdered Jews. Hence why these men don't use their own historical costumes from that era I'm guessing.

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 05:00 PM
Meh, since this is way off topic anyway:

I can kind of fill in some things for you. For what it's worth, in the Middle Ages, the Jews were barred from certain trades while money-handling occupations were left wide open as governments deemed these types of jobs as immoral or unfit for Christians. It goes back to usury etc. and how they could not charge interest to fellow Jews but there were no stipulations about interest charges to anyone else.

Regardless, they worked where they could in other fields and excelled in the financial trades as there was very limited competition from Christians and others. This is part of how the whole stereotype of Jewish people and money came to be. Obviously times have changed and there are many different people working in finance, but you can see how it was easy for Hitler to point them out and blame them for the country's financial and economic woes as they have had a long history of handling money (because that was more or less where they were pushed).
Yes! Thank you for your post, I never knew that! ^^ How interesting!


Hahaha thats okay XD;; I gotta learn to stop expecting you to know what i'm talking about when i go on a tangent. I should like... stop quoting things in our PMs, too, and just say it in my own words. ^^;; <3
I'm just pleased that I get to hear someone Else's different views and knowledge. Really most of what I hear is the same, it's nice to hear other things, more information for me!! <33

Axelai
01-05-2011, 05:03 PM
Thank you, every right wing talk show pundit ever. I did not realize you had an account on this board.

If this thread is still around at 10 PM EST, I am going throw myself into it, merrily drinking as I go.

What? I'm just saying. Its political correctness. Girl in my health class, black, called me "cracker" on a daily basis. Only person who cared was the teacher, whom asked her to stop as it was rude.

Yet we all know what would happen if i called her anything.

Not saying its right. I'm just saying its how it is *shrugs* I personally don't care she called me that, though. I'm not even white.

Visually appealing or not, the thread asks if it's offensive. I wouldn't dress up as a Japanese soldier, though I might cosplay a Japanese soldier from a series. I wouldn't do their WW2 uniforms as some kind of homage to them because they murdered more Chinese than Nazi's murdered Jews. Hence why these men don't use their own historical costumes from that era I'm guessing.

All i'm saying is that the people aren't trying to be offensive. Well, maybe they are. I can't read minds. But some of them probably aren't. Like that sweet guy she got the picture with, who apologized when she remarked on his costume.

Its just not "hitting home" to them like it does for western society. We get offended because we know people who have ties to the Holocaust, etc. Japan is (primarily) full of Japanese people, not Jewish people, or whomever else died in the Holocaust. So its not as offensive.



I'm just pleased that I get to hear someone Else's different views and knowledge. Really most of what I hear is the same, it's nice to hear other things, more information for me!! <33

Oh its always more fun to have a different point of view, especially on really... taboo topics XD

aoisakura
01-05-2011, 05:07 PM
I think it's more... If you find the Nazi uniform sexy, go ahead, wear it do what you like roleplay it if you like, but not in public. There are society norms and values you have to follow...and not going out of your way to do something to offend people is one of them....and dressing that way is being anti social. But then it's a slippery slope I guess as to where you draw the line as to whats socially offensive and what's just someones pet hate.

SweetOcarina
01-05-2011, 05:08 PM
All i'm saying is that the people aren't trying to be offensive. Well, maybe they are. I can't read minds. But some of them probably aren't. Like that sweet guy she got the picture with, who apologized when she remarked on his costume.

Its just not "hitting home" to them like it does for western society. We get offended because we know people who have ties to the Holocaust, etc. Japan is (primarily) full of Japanese people, not Jewish people, or whomever else died in the Holocaust. So its not as offensive.

I'm pretty sure any intelligent Japanese person can work out that the mass murder of millions isn't a good thing to portray at an anime convention. I wasn't affected directly by the Holocaust either, my family hasn't been involved with any Jews and none were killed in WW2 either. I still wouldn't do it.

Why is okay to cosplay a Nazi but if I did a historical 'blackface' cosplay it would be considered offensive? Are we really saying that because something is 'pretty' it should be allowed?

Axelai
01-05-2011, 05:13 PM
I'm pretty sure any intelligent Japanese person can work out that the mass murder of millions isn't a good thing to portray at an anime convention. I wasn't affected directly by the Holocaust either, my family hasn't been involved with any Jews and none were killed in WW2 either. I still wouldn't do it.

Why is okay to cosplay a Nazi but if I did a historical 'blackface' cosplay it would be considered offensive? Are we really saying that because something is 'pretty' it should be allowed?

Well, according to that Wikipedia article at least, WW2 is taught from more of a "like any other war" standpoint than "horrible atrocity" standpoint.

And once again, i never said what they're doing is right. I'm simply pointing out why they do it, and why its not offensive from their standpoint.

I'd never do it myself.

Yukikittie
01-05-2011, 05:14 PM
True. Someone taping an atomic bomb to their shirt and attacking people while screaming "Die Nagasaki!!" probably wouldn't offend me as much as a dude in a Nazi out heiling would. Just saying.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 05:21 PM
True. Someone taping an atomic bomb to their shirt and attacking people while screaming "Die Nagasaki!!" probably wouldn't offend me as much as a dude in a Nazi out heiling would. Just saying.

I'd probably laugh to the first one, and shift my feet uncomfortably to the second.

Unless the second was like... skipping around as they did it. Then i'd laugh too.

penny_dreadful
01-05-2011, 05:22 PM
It's probably not that politically incorrect to wear Nazi uniforms in Japan because they were an Axis nation and the Germans were their allies in WWII. It'd probably be more politically incorrect to wear a WWII-era U.S. military uniform in that context.

However aesthetically pleasing the designer Third Reich uniforms may be, they still symbolize the oppression, torture, and murder of millions of civilians at the behest of the Nazi party. In the same way costumes depicting racial stereotypes are offensive and insensitive, wearing a Nazi uniform for kicks and giggles (and not, say, historical reenactment or a theatrical production) says to people who see you that, if you don't outright support and celebrate the damage done, then you just don't care about those millions of people. I'm aware that mileage may vary depending on where you are and what the culture is like there, but I don't believe that just because it's "cultural" makes it condonable.

The Zwarte Pieten of the Netherlands, to use an example, may simply be white people dressed as black people. While this is considered taboo in the U.S. due to the negative history of blackface and minstrel shows, it becomes problematic in the context of Dutch culture if it is meant to portray people of African heritage as inferior.

On the other hand, while most white people who wear Native American war headdresses think they're honoring and celebrating Native American culture, it is cultural appropriation: often the people wearing them are ignorant of the cultural significance of the headdresses (wearing a warbonnet is typically an honor bestowed only on chiefs and warriors of a tribe, and women almost never wore them), not to mention how insensitive it is for a white person to casually wear an object with such importance to those of Native American heritage after the systematic destruction of native culture by white people since the 1400s.

I don't really care where you are in the world. If you are depicting another race or culture as inferior, or sporting symbolism that represents something hurtful and offensive to the people around you, you are either ignorant or a massive douche. While the internet and reality television may be trying to prove me wrong, as far as I'm concerned those are still attributes that are to be avoided by members of polite society.

SweetOcarina
01-05-2011, 05:24 PM
Penny_dreadful, you said that so eloquently. I agree with everything you said.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 05:30 PM
Insert Post Here

Wow, well stated.

Wish i could write that well :'| Thats pretty much what i was trying to say. Pretty much, at least. Everything but the last part.

While i do believe they are being ignorant, i don't believe we can blame them for that. But thats my only disagreement with your statement.

*gives thumbs up*

yamibakura03
01-05-2011, 05:36 PM
Penny_dreadful, you said that so eloquently. I agree with everything you said.

I second this~

kiratsukai
01-05-2011, 05:37 PM
It's probably not that politically incorrect to wear Nazi uniforms in Japan because they were an Axis nation and the Germans were their allies in WWII. It'd probably be more politically incorrect to wear a WWII-era U.S. military uniform in that context.

However aesthetically pleasing the designer Third Reich uniforms may be, they still symbolize the oppression, torture, and murder of millions of civilians at the behest of the Nazi party. In the same way costumes depicting racial stereotypes are offensive and insensitive, wearing a Nazi uniform for kicks and giggles (and not, say, historical reenactment or a theatrical production) says to people who see you that, if you don't outright support and celebrate the damage done, then you just don't care about those millions of people. I'm aware that mileage may vary depending on where you are and what the culture is like there, but I don't believe that just because it's "cultural" makes it condonable.

The Zwarte Pieten of the Netherlands, to use an example, may simply be white people dressed as black people. While this is considered taboo in the U.S. due to the negative history of blackface and minstrel shows, it becomes problematic in the context of Dutch culture if it is meant to portray people of African heritage as inferior.

On the other hand, while most white people who wear Native American war headdresses think they're honoring and celebrating Native American culture, it is cultural appropriation: often the people wearing them are ignorant of the cultural significance of the headdresses (wearing a warbonnet is typically an honor bestowed only on chiefs and warriors of a tribe, and women almost never wore them), not to mention how insensitive it is for a white person to casually wear an object with such importance to those of Native American heritage after the systematic destruction of native culture by white people since the 1400s.

I don't really care where you are in the world. If you are depicting another race or culture as inferior, or sporting symbolism that represents something hurtful and offensive to the people around you, you are either ignorant or a massive douche. While the internet and reality television may be trying to prove me wrong, as far as I'm concerned those are still attributes that are to be avoided by members of polite society.

Wow! Someone actually made an eloquent on-topic reply!

*points up* More like this, please!


Also ~ some people are thinking of Comiket as an "anime convention" and are questioning the place of the costumes there. Some clarification might be in order: Comiket is not an anime convention. It's a small-press media market. All sorts of otaku go there to peddle their wares, meet other dorks and dress up. There are anime geeks, manga geeks, game geeks, train geeks, plane geeks, lolicons, shotacons, furries, mech-heads, gore-hounds, horror fans, people into RPS and fanfiction, superhero fans, papercraft artists, crafters, sommeliers, potters, glass-workers, chefs, and any other kind of anything-fanatic you can imagine. There are quite a few military-otaku out there, too. This group attends every year dressed as a different WWII unit from around the world. This just happens to be the first time I've seen them do nazis ^^;;;

Angathol
01-05-2011, 05:58 PM
Also ~ some people are thinking of Comiket as an "anime convention" and are questioning the place of the costumes there.

With reference to my post, I didn't refer to Comiket in particular - I actually have seen photos of Nazi costumes (legitimate ones, not just say, Hellsing members) at anime conventions. There was a pair dressed as Hitler and Eva Braun (or some kind of femme Nazi) at a Texas convention last year. I really don't know what their reasoning was other than "lol Nazis," trying to be edgy or the fetishization of the uniforms. Oddly enough, this incident got far less exposure and cosplay community backlash than the Hetalia cosplayers' saluting incident at Anime Boston.

I wish I could say I only saw offensive costumes in places where they wouldn't be considered offensive, but this definitely isn't the case. There was a Louis from Left 4 Dead at a US con last year in blackface (textbook blackface with offensive intentions, not just dark makeup). It's shameful to see this sort of thing in places where people should certainly know better, but some people enjoy being "THAT guy."

Shifty Llama
01-05-2011, 05:59 PM
Being Jewish i have tried to stay out of this for a while but I just have this to say

If you are seeing costumes at a con expect to see anything, I am not going to be offencded by anything really if it is a costume,It is my feeling personaly that i would never dress as a nazi because that character isnt somehting i would wish to portray but if somone else wants to it is a costume. If it more than a costume and the individual also believes in nazi veiws this may be someting that this individual is uncomfortable with but it is their opinion to have these views and it would be just as wrong of me to judge them for it so i dont and simply decide not to cosplay things which i am uncomfortable with and let people do as they wish.

Verdhandi
01-05-2011, 05:59 PM
Girl in my health class, black, called me "cracker" on a daily basis. Only person who cared was the teacher, whom asked her to stop as it was rude.

Yet we all know what would happen if i called her anything.


You didn't just bring that into this thread after you practically derailed it already with the constant repetition of your same highly subjective argument.

Oh wait. You did.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 06:17 PM
You didn't just bring that into this thread after you practically derailed it already with the constant repetition of your same highly subjective argument.

Oh wait. You did.

I was merely pointing it out that what she said was offensive :'| You only quoted like, half of what i said and took it out of context. I made the comment directly after that it isn't right for her to call me that, nor for me to call her anything, especially since i'm not even white.

And on my other stuff: Learn to take a joke. I wasn't being wholy serious with my whole "sexy nazi" argument. I was saying it was an attractive uniform, albeit in a playful manner.

Geez. Stop making things so personal :'| Can't we be civil here without taking cheap shots?

kiratsukai
01-05-2011, 06:21 PM
Learn to take a joke.

There's a time and a place for joking. A serious, inherently-offensive discussion thread where emotions are obviously running high is a crappy place to practice your comedy skills.

Axelai
01-05-2011, 06:24 PM
There's a time and a place for joking. A serious, inherently-offensive discussion thread where emotions are obviously running high is a crappy place to practice your comedy skills.

I also apologized to anyone i offended, and made it obvious i didn't mean to offend anyone.

Some of the other comments in here are far more ridiculous than anything i said.

My entire point is that the uniforms are visually appealing, and in a culture where thats not 100% offensive, i can see why they'd wear it. I never once said it was right, nor did i say i'd do it myself.

Everyone is just enjoying taking what I'm saying out of context and trying to make me seem like some twisted individual :'| I mean... really.

Again, sorry if anyone is offended by what I'm saying. But the point still stands.

EDIT: At this point, I'm sorry to anyone who was honestly offended by my points. I was being playful for like, 90% of it, honestly not thinking anyone would seriously get offended. But whatevs. Apologies to you all, i never meant to offend. I'll leave the thread now and you can all continue your debate on the topic. Since I've made my point already

*waves and goes back to work*

Avatar Alvaang
01-05-2011, 07:40 PM
I have to admit I want to Cosplay the black guy from tropic thunder tho! Not to offend anyone but it's just for the sake of comedy

Kildread
01-05-2011, 08:17 PM
Maybe I'm more into ideals than 'What really happened'. I don't see dressing up as nazis as any worse than, say, Rail Tracer from Baccano.

Yeah, that one is fictional and didn't kill anyone really, but he's still pictured as a psycho who does so. If you dress up as him, does that mean you represent the same ideals, that you want to be a psycho?

There's no question that it's iffy to dress up as real hate groups and the impact is more present (BECAUSE IT REALLY HAPPENED!) and it's one of those things that really shouldn't be seen anywhere in public (Public cosplayers --- that's a bad idea right there).

...but on convention grounds? I'm as offended by those costumes as the ones promoting 'comedy pedophilia' via those pedobear memes.

...it's not because it's a fictional character than the idea isn't there.

What's offending to you, the costume, the symbols, the message it sends, the ideals behind them?

If it's the ideals, there's already plenty of people dressing up in iffy costumes in that case. Just not 'real hate groups', so that's fine for everyone.

Additionally, there's the whole 'In-character' bit that seems popular amongst many, I find the uniforms very sharp and well made, but anyone acting 'in-character' would make the thing kinda off-putting to me. Because it crosses my personal line between dressing up and taking on the ideals.

Nikomarete
01-05-2011, 10:02 PM
A cosplay I've been thinking about for the future (like wayyy future) is dressing up as a Grammar Nazi. I figured it might be kind of funny, seeing as I'm an English Education major and all. :3 I'm just afraid of offending the hell out of people here if I had the uniform and the armband displaying the Grammar Nazi "G." For those of you who don't know what it looks like, here's a reference:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Grammar_Nazi_Icon_Text.svg/500px-Grammar_Nazi_Icon_Text.svg.png

Do you think I would piss anyone off in a Nazi uniform and this on an armband? ^ ^;

Volnixshin
01-05-2011, 10:20 PM
`Gonna just drop this here, because it made me chuckle. Several people have stated

"dressing like a nazi/cosplaying a nazi is not acceptable to most people in the social norm" or something along those lines. I find many, many people find cosplay itself to be unacceptable in the social norm

Quote me, flame me, I don't give a shit.

Amanita
01-05-2011, 10:36 PM
I remember somebody posting on another message board, admitting that they had cosplayed as a Nazi, along with several of their friends at a sci-fi con. They were recreating the procession from "Indiana Jones and the Raiders of the Lost Ark". They had the uniforms, ark, banners, the works. Into the hotel lobby they marched, only to realize that their hotel was hosting not only the con, but a gathering of WWII vets. They didn't want to ruffle the vet's feathers, so they went over to a group of vets sitting in the lobby, explained what they were doing, and apologized in case the vets were offended. The vets and the cosplayers actually ended up having a good chat, with the vets remarking on how accurate the cosplayer's outfits were. I guess it shows the importance of good behavior when cosplaying as anything controversial or offensive.

As for Axelei's story about being called racial slurs, if I were her teacher, I would have shut that crap down the first time it happened, and I would have had words for the girl throwing "cracker" around. Something like "I don't care whose mouth it comes out of or what color they are, racism is racism, and I will not have anyone using racial slurs in my classroom, period."
I guess I'm an equalist- if it's wrong for one race to insult or make fun of another, than it's wrong for everyone, no double standards.

As for the question somebody asked about modifying behavior in order to appease visitors, I say no to that. When you're visiting some place else, it's kind of arrogant to insist that things be just as they are back home. Rather, visitors should educate themselves, or somebody should educate the visitors, even if it's as simple as telling them "It's normal to sunbathe topless here" or "people have been known to cosplay things here that would be considered really un-PC back home".

Eau de Decus
01-05-2011, 11:44 PM
Do you think I would piss anyone off in a Nazi uniform and this on an armband? ^ ^; As for me, I would love to see that, but apparently everyone is overly offended by even the thought of anything Nazi related. Just know you may or may not get people who hate you, but you're free to do it if you want to. All I know is I'd get a picture for sure, but that is me.

Kildread
01-05-2011, 11:46 PM
Do you think I would piss anyone off in a Nazi uniform and this on an armband? ^ ^;

I'm thinking you'll likely have at least someone annoyed/pissed/angry about it.

I would totally request a picture!

Yukikittie
01-06-2011, 06:30 AM
Do you think I would piss anyone off in a Nazi uniform and this on an armband? ^ ^;
No, I would seriously like love you for that.

rubyspitfire
01-06-2011, 07:13 AM
the only time i would wear a german military uniform is if i were cosplaying... oh i dunno, germany from hetalia or something from hellsing, and then i would probably opt for leaving the swastica armband out or substituting a german flag in it's place. i've actually considered cosplaying germany but 1) it's offensive to some people (not that it's stopped me before, i've seen amestris/ishval likened to nazis/jews by overly serious cosplayers) and 2) i'm having trouble getting into the fandom

people forget that the nazis were a political party and not the entire german military. and yes, they are sexy clothes and well-made too

vampricyoda
01-06-2011, 07:23 AM
Yes, the Nazi's were a political party. But when Hitler was "elected" the Nazi's became the Military. They had mass purgings of their political enemies.

As far as cosplaying Nazi charactors or Germany from Hetalia. . .So long as you have some common sense it's not bad. Common sense being don't goose step, wear a swastica, or really do anything that can be taken as Nazi in any context. Heck, Germany's only really raciest (in Hetalia) in the US dub in my understanding. I've heard they've actully made him worse?

I've not seen most of the show but there doesn't seem to be much in his costume in and of itself that's offensive.

Nikomarete
01-06-2011, 10:04 AM
....I think I have just been inspired to be a Grammar Nazi for a con one day. xD Thanks, guys!~ <3

(If anyone ran up to me and was like "O_O ARE YOU SERIOUSLY A NAZI?! [insert angry historically rich rant here] You're so heartless!" I suppose I could just point to my armband and say "It's.. a G. G for Grammar Nazi. Not a freakin' swastika. Calm the eff down. :sunny:"

hollowchrist
01-06-2011, 10:59 AM
For the people saying "it's just a costume" what if you saw a kkk outfit at a convention? Is it still just a costume?

I just dont understand how someone would want to Cosplay a member of a REAL LIFE hate group. People do not get offeneded when people wear death eater costumes (Harrry potter bad guys) because they did not affect anyone in RL. So there is a MAJOR difference...

I would probably think they were ghosts until someone else pointed out that they weren't ghosts. :/ I doubt that my first impression would be KKK.

Just like I would assume those guys where just military men, up until I saw the swastika. Then I would mull it over and wonder if the swastika was the right way until I completely confused myself on which way means peace and which way means warnazihitlers.

By then the convention would be over, so... I'm just gonna say I doubt I'd be offended, because I feel that life is far too short to be offended by things so trivial.

If they went around randomly killing people that didn't have blonde hair or blue eyes, then I'd be offended.

penny_dreadful
01-06-2011, 01:12 PM
`Gonna just drop this here, because it made me chuckle. Several people have stated

"dressing like a nazi/cosplaying a nazi is not acceptable to most people in the social norm" or something along those lines. I find many, many people find cosplay itself to be unacceptable in the social norm

Quote me, flame me, I don't give a shit.

Most people I know consider cosplay "weird," it's definitely not socio-normative, but very few would describe it as "unacceptable." For the most part, people seem to be able to make a distinction between the social implications of dressing as a Nazi and dressing as Hello Kitty.

rubyspitfire
01-06-2011, 01:39 PM
Most people I know consider cosplay "weird," it's definitely not socio-normative, but very few would describe it as "unacceptable." For the most part, people seem to be able to make a distinction between the social implications of dressing as a Nazi and dressing as Hello Kitty.

funny coincidence... Mosh just posted a pic on her dA of dressing like a nazi with a hello kitty armband

penny_dreadful
01-06-2011, 01:48 PM
funny coincidence... Mosh just posted a pic on her dA of dressing like a nazi with a hello kitty armband

On the other hand, dressing as a kawaiifascist will probably just leave people confused. At least the photographer helpfully places it in context (http://miss-mosh.deviantart.com/#/d36i0ll) with his comments.

shadowbeam
01-06-2011, 02:18 PM
Just to say, if the reason people want to wear it because of how it looks then go for it, but i don't see why this can't be done without the symbol? If the reason you like it is the uniform and nothing else then....symbol isn't needed surely?
I think it's the symbol that people would have the problem with.

On topic: I agree that it's probably just different cultures don't really see it the same way as others, and thats life so I don't think i'd be as offended as if i saw it at, say, a UK convention (which are the only ones i go to :P).

Arlette
01-06-2011, 02:49 PM
To go back to the main question being posed by the OP:

No, other cultures absolutely cannot be held up to western standards. To do so, or even consider the thought, would make us look even more self-absorbed than we already do to the rest of the world. Then again, nothing surprises me anymore. After all, we're the country that runs on hand sanitizer, has a Starbucks on every corner, and is hellbent on editing Huckleberry Finn...

sam vimes
01-06-2011, 02:58 PM
To go back to the main question being posed by the OP:

No, other cultures absolutely cannot be held up to western standards. To do so, or even consider the thought, would make us look even more self-absorbed than we already do to the rest of the world. Then again, nothing surprises me anymore. After all, we're the country that runs on hand sanitizer, has a Starbucks on every corner, and is hellbent on editing Huckleberry Finn...

Oh please. We're also a country that doesn't force female circumcision, jail critics of the government, or...

Okay, I'll agree with you on the Huckleberry Finn part. Well played.

If a culture doesn't hold up to my standards, then I judge and despise that culture. That's just who I am.

Nightwitch-Kat
01-06-2011, 02:58 PM
I'm not too crazy about it. I only find it acceptable (barely) in the case of Hellsing but as the neice of a man's whose parents BARELY made it out of a work camp, I'm not impressed with people just WEARING a Nazi uniform, no matter how well made it is.

toshirua3846384
01-06-2011, 06:35 PM
Yeah, another of these!

But hey, it's been awhile since we've had a decent debate about this sort of thing and it's a little slow.

So the background:

This year at Comiket, there were quite a lot of nazis (http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/)!! Day 2 there was a particularly notable and scary chap in an SS uniform who was terribly good at being nazi-esque and apparently even answered a friend's inquiry with "Heil Hitler". He had a group of 3 or 4 other Nazi armband-wearing fellows with him, too. I was a little uncomfy around them.

On Day 3, another nazi came to photograph our Kuroshitsuji group and I immediately turned the tables: "I want a picture with the nazi!!!" He covered his armband with one hand and looked incredibly embarrassed, "I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I'm so sorry!!!!" I laughed it off and assured him that I really did want a picture with him on the condition "No salutes... that's not cool." Afterward I gave him a handshake and told him I was okay with fake nazis and that I only hate real ones :P

Comiket also had at least 4 or 5 Japanese dudes in blackface with fake afros, a handful of outrageous gay stereotypes, and at least one Kim Jung Il.

Politically correct? Certainly not.

Offensive to anyone around me at Comiket? Seemingly not.

But I'm curious to know what a tourist at Comiket would have throught of the nazis. Or what someone online might think seeing my photo posed with one.

Are nazi uniforms and armbands automatically offensive? Or do cultures with virtually no holocaust education in their history cirriculum, no Jewish population and a backwards swastika as a common map symbol get a free ride?

On the converse: have you ever wondered what people from other cultures might think of common Halloween costumes parodying their race or history? Or what a Japanese attendee to Anime Expo might think of a white girl in an over-the-top geisha costume?

Are we obliged to protect travellers from our own institutionalized notions of race and propriety?

Heres my opinion on the whole thing and if there is any credit to be added i have lived in both countries.

I have been to comiket before so to a point i know what your talking about when it comes to the people there donning themselves in Hauptsturmführer garb,as well as seeing different types of "black face" there. I think it is the over all "allure" of the costume that attracts people to wear it, and this can be done without completely being racist. I also don't think nazi arm bands are offensive nor do i think their black face is, usually people mistake this for gangankuro or ganguro type people. The reason is because it is not like they are cosplaying me. And my family and i are not of jewish, polish, hungrian, african american, or afro-carribian decent. Also i regard myself as a person first rather than my race or skin color first. However with this said i can still see how people can get offended by this type of cosplay. Also i think depending on the mind set of the tourist; they may get offended if they are for example of Polish Jewish decent and see a cosplayer wearing a nazi uniform or a Sturmbannführer uniform, this said especially if the person who is doing this is doing this by choice and without any type of physical regret on their face.

Same with a person who is African american who will see a person doing a bad degrading parody of a "shaft like" character who is clearly asian. And it is by all means understandable. Truly think about it, if your family comes from a certain group of people who have been hurt, and i may add inhumanly in the past, they may be very offended, even though they were not personally hurt in that way themselves. I guess you can call them "over emotional or wanting to play victim," in this argument depending on how you yourself view the situation. I won't personally comment my opinion about this situation.

About what a Japanese native might think of a Caucasian or other type of race cosplaying as a geisha for example, i truly do not know, im a pacific islander, but im not japanese so i cannot give what a certain person of that race would think, but i would imagine that if they are traditional to a certain degree they might be offended that the person would cosplay as such a historical type of figure with, and in most situations, not know anything about the the cultural figure they are cosplaying as. I guess its like a "slap in the face" sort of speak because its like "hey this is cute, and pretty let me cosplay as this, and then not really give a damn about the whole thing. But this is for certain people, im not trying to call anyone out. Also a little trivia for those out there, there is a genuine caucasian geisha that have been through the appropriate training to even be noted as such for got her name though, but this was slightly recent.

I know that some people may think religious costumes or cosplay is offensive though, and that is because they are usually parodied in a very negative light. But some cultures may dismay the idea of this. Especially if their culture respects this icon. I know some people who become pissed if they see at a anime convention a halloween costume of the Pope or Jesus sometimes, because everyone knows that whenever some one is wearing such a controversial garb they are usually parodied with an alcoholic beverage or tacky and shameless women wearing next to nothing.

You ask "Are we obliged to protect travellers from our own institutionalized notions of race and propriety?," That will for a very long time be a yes and no answer. As long as there are people who get offended for either the "right or wrong" reasons then this will continue to be an issue.

So to sum up my "rant", I think people "choose" to accept what is offensive and what is not offensive, even if it is a costume. However; *puts on the neutral advocate's boulder hat* even if the people dressing in controversy cosplay were to think that it isn't offensive or on their part and lack to see how it can be offensive, there will be people who will take offense to what they are wearing. I am not one of those people who will take offense to a costume however i don't necessarily condone wearing anything like that. To me, when not represented well it can seem to be a weird masochistic thing people do to spark controversy with other people of converse cultures. And usually there is nothing positive that comes out of it.

Flora88
01-06-2011, 07:58 PM
As for the KKK thing, there's no possible way to mix up a KKK outfit with a ghost outfit. Just sayin'.
KKK outfits are way scarier than any ghost ever thought about being.

And, seriously, has anyone really dressed up as a "bedsheet ghost" since, like, the fifties?

Shifty Llama
01-06-2011, 08:17 PM
As for the KKK thing, there's no possible way to mix up a KKK outfit with a ghost outfit. Just sayin'.
KKK outfits are way scarier than any ghost ever thought about being.

And, seriously, has anyone really dressed up as a "bedsheet ghost" since, like, the fifties?

This made me think of the south park Halloween episode

Cartman's mom makes him a hitler uniform for a costume and he gets in trouble, so the school principal makes him a quick Ghost costume and it ends up looking like a KKK robe and he still offends people...Funny but proof both are usually seen as being innaproprite for random costuming

I feel like with a nazi uniform you can at least attribut it to particular genres such as Hellsing, or Indiana Jones or even historical and even though its somehting i would do its more justified than say a KKK robe which is worn for their ceremonies and have more specific connotations than an SS uniform, so to that effect i wouldnt say be offended but a nazi costume but maybe would be a bit troubled by someone being hitler as the ideals were his and many of the nazis didnt have a choice in things....

HeartlessNobody
01-06-2011, 10:33 PM
As far as cosplaying Nazi charactors or Germany from Hetalia. . .So long as you have some common sense it's not bad. Common sense being don't goose step, wear a swastica, or really do anything that can be taken as Nazi in any context. Heck, Germany's only really raciest (in Hetalia) in the US dub in my understanding. I've heard they've actully made him worse?

I've not seen most of the show but there doesn't seem to be much in his costume in and of itself that's offensive.

Yeah the dub made it more offensive then the show really is. =/ [I still laugh until I'm crying, watching the dub. Though, the couple lines that are offensive continue to make me facepalm or awkwardly shift in my seat.] Its a gagdub. And, Studio Deen [the anime distributor of Hetalia] changed the color of Germany's uniform and removed his iron cross he wore. They also changed Prussia's uniform. [though his has the same color, just some things are missing here and there.] But Studio Deen isn't the greatest when it comes to that, they made Seychelles [An African nation] white, same with Egypt. When they both are tan at the very least.

*goes back to lurking*

Tsumanne
01-10-2011, 03:45 AM
I'm one of the "Nazi" cosplayers in question. Comiket 80 Photo by starter of thread (http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/) Please read. There's a few things people need to understand about Comiket and Wonder Festival and not necessarily Japan, as it will explain why we wear WWII German costumes at those events in particular.

I'm an amateur historian and registered member of the American Historical Association. I've been a historical reenactor since elementary school and have done several time periods (Anglo-Saxon/Viking, American Revolutionary War, American Civil War, and World War II). I am a founding member of a WWII German living history group that does public educational events, costume work for museums, veterans associations, and have done work for both PBS and The History Channel. 90% of the WWII cosplayers at Comiket are amateur historians or dedicated history buffs. Many of whom have served or are currently serving in the real military or law enforcement (myself included). And just about every WWII cosplayer in Japan has at least one WWII Japanese military uniform. Some guys also have Russian, Chinese, American, you name it someone has it. I'm throwing together a 1944 US Marine gig for Summer Comiket to go along with the guys in Japanese uniforms. I think it's a good day when people who's nations fought one another can come together, wear the uniforms their grandparents wore, and shake hands. Let alone study and wear the uniform of another nation.

Also most of the German costumes we wear aren't actually Nazi, but are instead German military or civil police/firefighter (contrary to Hollywood, the German military was not overrun with Nazis). This Comiket was rather odd as a surprisingly large number of pre-war political uniforms were actually present, although mostly by people outside our usual history gathering and their costumes tended to be somewhat Hollywood in nature. So admittedly there is a small fraction of cosplayers at Comiket who wear a WWII uniform just simply because they think it looks cool.

Now on the subject of wearing WWII German costumes at anime conventions:

I have never and will never wear my historical costumes to an anime/game convention. It's just not appropriate. It's like wearing a Star Trek costume to a renaissance festival. It just doesn't fit in and will most likely bother other attendees even if you feel you can justify it. Bottom line is people don't go to Anime North, Otakon, or AX to see my historically correct 1944-45 German Civil Rural Police costume. Which is actually the costume I wore at Comiket the other week... But wait, didn't I just say I wouldn't wear something like that to an anime/game convention?

That's because Comiket isn't an anime convention. Comiket is an Amateur Comic Market (Comic Market ---> Comiket). Amateur comics of any and all kinds are sold as well as amateur art books (a much smaller doujin pc game section is now also held in a segregated area). In terms of military themes, there is an entire cult following of military specific doujin which has spawned a few military doujin circles. Likewise, Wonder Festival is not an anime convention. It's an amateur figurine sculpting market and military modeling is present. Any and all themes are encouraged at both events. Just, for obvious reasons, the vast majority of works at these events tend to be anime/manga/game inspired.

Another thing people need to understand about Comiket and Wonder Festival is that cosplay is not directly combined with the main event. Cosplay is a separate mini-event handled independently of the main convention. Cosplayers pay a special cosplay fee and are specially registered. There are designated cosplay areas outside the main convention area... literally outside. As in outdoors. Although you can wear your costume inside the convention, you are not to stop and talk about your costume or take photos inside the actual event or hallways. Photos are only permitted in the officially designated cosplay areas outdoors. You are also not permitted to wear your costume to or from the event and must change in the designated changing rooms where you register and receive your cosplay pass. And yes they check.

Cosplay is essentially a separate event. At Comiket I typically never even enter the actual event and only go to the cosplay area. Costuming of any form or kind is encouraged. People who go to the cosplay area expect to see costumes ranging from anime and games to history and amateur fashion design. It's not an anime cosplay event. It's for costuming in general. Just again, for obvious reasons, the vast majority are anime/game inspired.

The Tokyo Game Show however is an entirely different world. Tokyo Game Show is a professional exhibition for (you guessed it) games. Unlike Comiket and Wonder Festival, where there has always been a strong emphasis on amateur craftsmanship, the Tokyo Game Show is an expo for professional companies to market upcoming products on a global stage. WWII costuming is entirely inappropriate for such an event. The same goes for many other events in Japan where cosplay is permitted because WWII cosplay just simply has no place being there.

Ok, I'm going to stop now as this has drug on far too long... But that's the abbreviated reason on why we do what we do at Comiket and Wonder Festival.
If you actually took the time to read this I honestly thank you.

CodeShogun
01-10-2011, 04:37 AM
Tsumanne,

I read whole post that you wrote and I want to thank you for putting everything in context. I really appreciated how you clarifying most of the stuff that I was bit puzzled about. It's interesting to see how the cosplay operate in Japan and I understand the context bit better since I was able to understand what you wrote.

Keep up good work and have fun. :)

Amanita
01-10-2011, 09:54 AM
Tsumanne, thank you for that well written post, it was well worth reading!
I completely agree with what you've said in regards to history, historical cosplay, and how cool it is that we, descendants of those who fought against each other, can come together peacefully now.

With touchy subject matter like Nazi-ism, or costumes inspired by other aspects of history or current events, it's easy to dismiss the wearers as shock-jocks, just out to piss people off, start controversy, or worse. But your post shows quite well why such jumping to conclusions or making snap judgements is a bad idea. While some people may work with touchy subject matter in costuming, art, or any other media, it doesn' mean they're making fun of the subject in question, being disrespectful, endorsing bad things like terrorism or nazi-ism, or just out to stir up trouble.

And understanding just what Comiket or Wonder Festival are, and why "nazi" cosplays may appear there also helps. FWIW, those events actually sound pretty cool, although being the modest person I am, I don't think I would like changing in front of a room full of people in a communal dressing room. I imagine if cons here in North America instituted similar rules- (You can't wear your costume to or from, you have to pay extra to cosplay or use changing facilities, you have to use communal facilities to dress/do makeup/etc), a lot of con-goers would be rolling their eyes and WTF-ing, big time. I'm sure the con would be accused of greed or nickle-and-diming, for expecting cosplayers to pay an extral fee, and a lot of folks would be saying "How is it the con's business if I wear my costume to or from? They can't tell me what to wear when I'm not even on the con site!"
I guess it just goes to show the massive difference between Japanese and Western culture and attitudes.

SweetOcarina
01-10-2011, 10:24 AM
Thanks for explaining a few things Tsumanne.

Tonwari
01-10-2011, 10:41 AM
I sort of understand the Nazi costume from a historical/aesthetic perspective. I would be offended personally but I'd simply look the other way. I'm sure a majority of the people in those costumes aren't meaning to be offensive/don't subscribe to the Nazi beliefs but I think it's perhaps a bit tasteless.

As for the gay stereotypes and blackface... I don't understand that at all.

Axelai
01-10-2011, 11:58 AM
Just popping in to point out something someone said to me at ALA:

There was a girl there cosplaying some character that was a Nazi (i dunno who). She had the red armband on, but it was flipped inside out. I asked why, and she told me she'd probably wear the armband with the swastika at a larger con, but it'd be awkward at a small con.

I thought that was interesting and decided to share that here.

Flora88
01-10-2011, 12:11 PM
I'm one of the "Nazi" cosplayers in question. Comiket 80 Photo by starter of thread (http://www.cosplay.com/photo/2813183/) Please read. There's a few things people need to understand about Comiket and Wonder Festival and not necessarily Japan, as it will explain why we wear WWII German costumes at those events in particular.

I'm an amateur historian and registered member of the American Historical Association. I've been a historical reenactor since elementary school and have done several time periods (Anglo-Saxon/Viking, American Revolutionary War, American Civil War, and World War II). I am a founding member of a WWII German living history group that does public educational events, costume work for museums, veterans associations, and have done work for both PBS and The History Channel. 90% of the WWII cosplayers at Comiket are amateur historians or dedicated history buffs. Many of whom have served or are currently serving in the real military or law enforcement (myself included). And just about every WWII cosplayer in Japan has at least one WWII Japanese military uniform. Some guys also have Russian, Chinese, American, you name it someone has it. I'm throwing together a 1944 US Marine gig for Summer Comiket to go along with the guys in Japanese uniforms. I think it's a good day when people who's nations fought one another can come together, wear the uniforms their grandparents wore, and shake hands. Let alone study and wear the uniform of another nation.

Also most of the German costumes we wear aren't actually Nazi, but are instead German military or civil police/firefighter (contrary to Hollywood, the German military was not overrun with Nazis). This Comiket was rather odd as a surprisingly large number of pre-war political uniforms were actually present, although mostly by people outside our usual history gathering and their costumes tended to be somewhat Hollywood in nature. So admittedly there is a small fraction of cosplayers at Comiket who wear a WWII uniform just simply because they think it looks cool.

Now on the subject of wearing WWII German costumes at anime conventions:

I have never and will never wear my historical costumes to an anime/game convention. It's just not appropriate. It's like wearing a Star Trek costume to a renaissance festival. It just doesn't fit in and will most likely bother other attendees even if you feel you can justify it. Bottom line is people don't go to Anime North, Otakon, or AX to see my historically correct 1944-45 German Civil Rural Police costume. Which is actually the costume I wore at Comiket the other week... But wait, didn't I just say I wouldn't wear something like that to an anime/game convention?

That's because Comiket isn't an anime convention. Comiket is an Amateur Comic Market (Comic Market ---> Comiket). Amateur comics of any and all kinds are sold as well as amateur art books (a much smaller doujin pc game section is now also held in a segregated area). In terms of military themes, there is an entire cult following of military specific doujin which has spawned a few military doujin circles. Likewise, Wonder Festival is not an anime convention. It's an amateur figurine sculpting market and military modeling is present. Any and all themes are encouraged at both events. Just, for obvious reasons, the vast majority of works at these events tend to be anime/manga/game inspired.

Another thing people need to understand about Comiket and Wonder Festival is that cosplay is not directly combined with the main event. Cosplay is a separate mini-event handled independently of the main convention. Cosplayers pay a special cosplay fee and are specially registered. There are designated cosplay areas outside the main convention area... literally outside. As in outdoors. Although you can wear your costume inside the convention, you are not to stop and talk about your costume or take photos inside the actual event or hallways. Photos are only permitted in the officially designated cosplay areas outdoors. You are also not permitted to wear your costume to or from the event and must change in the designated changing rooms where you register and receive your cosplay pass. And yes they check.

Cosplay is essentially a separate event. At Comiket I typically never even enter the actual event and only go to the cosplay area. Costuming of any form or kind is encouraged. People who go to the cosplay area expect to see costumes ranging from anime and games to history and amateur fashion design. It's not an anime cosplay event. It's for costuming in general. Just again, for obvious reasons, the vast majority are anime/game inspired.

The Tokyo Game Show however is an entirely different world. Tokyo Game Show is a professional exhibition for (you guessed it) games. Unlike Comiket and Wonder Festival, where there has always been a strong emphasis on amateur craftsmanship, the Tokyo Game Show is an expo for professional companies to market upcoming products on a global stage. WWII costuming is entirely inappropriate for such an event. The same goes for many other events in Japan where cosplay is permitted because WWII cosplay just simply has no place being there.

Ok, I'm going to stop now as this has drug on far too long... But that's the abbreviated reason on why we do what we do at Comiket and Wonder Festival.
If you actually took the time to read this I honestly thank you.

Wow! That was super-informative, and awesome! Thanks.

Flora88
01-10-2011, 12:11 PM
I sort of understand the Nazi costume from a historical/aesthetic perspective. I would be offended personally but I'd simply look the other way. I'm sure a majority of the people in those costumes aren't meaning to be offensive/don't subscribe to the Nazi beliefs but I think it's perhaps a bit tasteless.

As for the gay stereotypes and blackface... I don't understand that at all.

^Agreed.

Emiko87
01-10-2011, 12:44 PM
Tossing in my two cents here (I'm 1/2 Jewish btw.) Seeing someone in a German uniform without insignia would not bother me. Seeing someone with a swastika on them, regardless of whether they had on a uniform of any kind or not, would get me upset. Germany =/= Nazi, German uniform doesn't automatically = Nazi. Be that as it may, Nazi insignia does tend to give the impression of Nazi sympathies. If I saw someone at a con with a swastika on them, I'd probably go over and quietly talk to them about it, ask them to remove it perhaps. If I saw someone giving the salute and saying "Heil Hitler" I would probably be a little more public about it, but still wouldn't make a screaming fuss, though I would make it very plain that I was offended. To sum up: German uniform, of any type, unless explicitly depicted as Nazi, =/= offensive to me. Making it clear that you are portraying a Nazi and without specific qualifiers, such as were given by Tsumanne, = offensive to me.

Spetsnaz
01-12-2011, 03:07 AM
Allllrighty.

I've glanced here and there through this thread, so, if I am making a point that has already been put into place I apologize.

I am a World War 2 Reenactor. (http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8562/conneautww2.jpg) and I reenact, as you could easily tell from the picture, the German side of the war.

That being said, I would like to bring up several points in reference to the discussions in place here.

1. Historical Accuracy and Swats.

All World War 2 reenacting units belong to some form of historical society. The unit I belong to is registered with the Tactical Studies Group, and there are several other groups and organizations that belong to this, they cater to both Allied and Axis units.

That being said, historical accuracy is usually a very big thing with WW2 reenacting, and any reenacting.

Every WW2 German Reenactor has the Swaz on them. Because that was the regime they fought under and commanded them. The tunics have the swaz on the breast of them and the field caps also have them. Although, they are not as prominent as the armbands, they ARE there.

Why? Because it is historically accurate. If you are going to reenact history, you have to be accurate. These icons are not easily seen and quite frankly, are not usually noticed. Just because there is the swastika, does not mean that the reenactor is a nazi. Period.

HOWEVER. There IS good taste involve. You will NOT see nazi salutes, hear heil hitlers, or see political flags at an event. We are accurate to a point, and we are VERY careful not to cross that line. None of us endorse nor have sympathy for the actions conducted by that regime.

2. German military and Nazi Party.

The German military and the Nazi Party are two different things, and people very often get them mixed up. I reenact a standard grunt in an engineer unit of the Wehrmacht. The boots on the ground and the men fighting were not Nazis. These were men fighting for their country and fighting because their leaders told them to. Although, I am not supporting anything they did. You have to understand that there is a difference between military units and political units. As a poster above me stated, the German military was not over run with "true nazis".

However, there were POLITICAL units that did fight. These include the Waffen SS and the SS units. These are the POLITICAL units and were part of the nazi party.

German Military = Standard military
Waffen SS and SS = Politically driven (and committed most of the atrocities).

All PUBLIC reenactors you see are NOT nazis nor do we agree with any of the absolutely horrible things that the nazi regime did in Europe. You can visit ANY website for reenacting and you will see that none of us support what happened. Our activity is for historical and education purposes only.

YES. There are some groups out there who are affiliated with neo-nazi groups. But you will not see any of those individuals at public events nor associated with any public groups. We simply do NOT tolerate it. Period.

3. Why reenact a German soldier?

It's a different story for many. But for me. It's simple.

To be different.

If the allied reenactors had no one to fight, the reenactments would be boring and you would get one side of the story. People also have a tendency to want both sides of the story. They want to see both sides of a conflict.

I also have an attraction to the weaponry the Germans used during WW2. The rifles, machine guns, tanks, etc. Their technology was fascinating and I enjoy being a part of that. For me, it is a learning experience...even as I teach.

I have also learned a LOT about all sides of the conflict. I have no regrets in my decision and I have learned a lot about the conflict and the men involved in it.

4. Reenacting and conventions.

For me. My WW2 Impression will never see light outside of a reenactment. In my opinion, a convention is not the place for a German WW2 soldier. First of all, due to the severe misunderstanding and the fallout involving that. For seconds, too much of a hassle.

But the biggest reason is this. People go to WW2 Reenactments expecting to see it all. Germans. Americans. British. Russians. People do not expect to see this at conventions. Thus, your risk of possibly offending someone or getting into a confrontation dramatically increases. It simply just does not belong. It has a time and a place, and in my honest opinion, a convention full of teenagers revolving around anime and video games is not that place. (And, no offense to you younger people out there at all. I am simply making a point.)

People expect to see historical accuracy at a reenactment. People do not expect to see German soldiers marching through the halls of a convention center.

In the end, you have to look at it in two ways. Is the person in the uniform wearing it for educational purposes, or to make a point?

That being said, you will find that all reenactors a part of a registered unit attending public events are there for education. We do well to keep the 'riff-raff' out. I've heard of many units giving people the boot after finding out about their histories a little more. Thankfully, we have not had any slip into our ranks of the unit I am in. Those people's faces and names become well known very quickly in the reenacting community, and they are kept well outside the gates.

I think that about wraps it up for me. :drink:

Emiko87
01-12-2011, 11:31 AM
Allllrighty.

I've glanced here and there through this thread, so, if I am making a point that has already been put into place I apologize.

I am a World War 2 Reenactor. (http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/8562/conneautww2.jpg) and I reenact, as you could easily tell from the picture, the German side of the war.

That being said, I would like to bring up several points in reference to the discussions in place here.

1. Historical Accuracy and Swats.

All World War 2 reenacting units belong to some form of historical society. The unit I belong to is registered with the Tactical Studies Group, and there are several other groups and organizations that belong to this, they cater to both Allied and Axis units.

That being said, historical accuracy is usually a very big thing with WW2 reenacting, and any reenacting.

Every WW2 German Reenactor has the Swaz on them. Because that was the regime they fought under and commanded them. The tunics have the swaz on the breast of them and the field caps also have them. Although, they are not as prominent as the armbands, they ARE there.

Why? Because it is historically accurate. If you are going to reenact history, you have to be accurate. These icons are not easily seen and quite frankly, are not usually noticed. Just because there is the swastika, does not mean that the reenactor is a nazi. Period.

HOWEVER. There IS good taste involve. You will NOT see nazi salutes, hear heil hitlers, or see political flags at an event. We are accurate to a point, and we are VERY careful not to cross that line. None of us endorse nor have sympathy for the actions conducted by that regime.

2. German military and Nazi Party.

The German military and the Nazi Party are two different things, and people very often get them mixed up. I reenact a standard grunt in an engineer unit of the Wehrmacht. The boots on the ground and the men fighting were not Nazis. These were men fighting for their country and fighting because their leaders told them to. Although, I am not supporting anything they did. You have to understand that there is a difference between military units and political units. As a poster above me stated, the German military was not over run with "true nazis".

However, there were POLITICAL units that did fight. These include the Waffen SS and the SS units. These are the POLITICAL units and were part of the nazi party.

German Military = Standard military
Waffen SS and SS = Politically driven (and committed most of the atrocities).

All PUBLIC reenactors you see are NOT nazis nor do we agree with any of the absolutely horrible things that the nazi regime did in Europe. You can visit ANY website for reenacting and you will see that none of us support what happened. Our activity is for historical and education purposes only.

YES. There are some groups out there who are affiliated with neo-nazi groups. But you will not see any of those individuals at public events nor associated with any public groups. We simply do NOT tolerate it. Period.

3. Why reenact a German soldier?

It's a different story for many. But for me. It's simple.

To be different.

If the allied reenactors had no one to fight, the reenactments would be boring and you would get one side of the story. People also have a tendency to want both sides of the story. They want to see both sides of a conflict.

I also have an attraction to the weaponry the Germans used during WW2. The rifles, machine guns, tanks, etc. Their technology was fascinating and I enjoy being a part of that. For me, it is a learning experience...even as I teach.

I have also learned a LOT about all sides of the conflict. I have no regrets in my decision and I have learned a lot about the conflict and the men involved in it.

4. Reenacting and conventions.

For me. My WW2 Impression will never see light outside of a reenactment. In my opinion, a convention is not the place for a German WW2 soldier. First of all, due to the severe misunderstanding and the fallout involving that. For seconds, too much of a hassle.

But the biggest reason is this. People go to WW2 Reenactments expecting to see it all. Germans. Americans. British. Russians. People do not expect to see this at conventions. Thus, your risk of possibly offending someone or getting into a confrontation dramatically increases. It simply just does not belong. It has a time and a place, and in my honest opinion, a convention full of teenagers revolving around anime and video games is not that place. (And, no offense to you younger people out there at all. I am simply making a point.)

People expect to see historical accuracy at a reenactment. People do not expect to see German soldiers marching through the halls of a convention center.

In the end, you have to look at it in two ways. Is the person in the uniform wearing it for educational purposes, or to make a point?

That being said, you will find that all reenactors a part of a registered unit attending public events are there for education. We do well to keep the 'riff-raff' out. I've heard of many units giving people the boot after finding out about their histories a little more. Thankfully, we have not had any slip into our ranks of the unit I am in. Those people's faces and names become well known very quickly in the reenacting community, and they are kept well outside the gates.

I think that about wraps it up for me. :drink:

See, that's what I'm talking about. Historical reenactment is a legitimate reason to wear such insignia, because it's necessary for accuracy. Especially in the context of an actual reenactment, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even if it's not for a reenactment, if the person is cosplaying a character who wears that symbol, I would personally feel a little uncomfortable seeing it, but wouldn't ask them to take it off if they explained to me that they needed it to be accurate to the character. It's the type who wear such things just to try and be edgy or to show they don't care what people think, or who think it makes them cool and rebellious or something, that get me upset.

AuroraCeleste
01-12-2011, 11:47 AM
Although the original post was about Comiket, a lot of the discussion has moved to cosplaying in other areas, so my comment is about all of them.

I am a believer that people should be able to make whatever costume they like. However, when you put on that costume and go out in public you have to realize that you're no longer operating in a vacuum. What you're wearing says something about you. Although a lot of cosplayers would like to think that they're saying nothing more than "I like Bob from the PlanetFred show!" there's really a lot more to it. What kind of person is Bob? Why do you like him/her? Your choices are always laden with meaning, intentional or subconscious.

That said, if I see a girl wearing a costume of a character whose vacuous and only lives to "find true love" I judge her internally. Perhaps it's harsh but I personally don't see why you would idolize someone like that. It's rather like judging someone who is wearing an unflattering outfit. That doesn't mean that I'm going to go over and tell that person my judgment of them, or even that I'm going to tell my friends. But it does play a factor in who I choose to speak to and get my picture taken with.

That said, I feel a Nazi uniform is an entirely different judgment. Nazis based their propaganda on fear, and that's what I feel when I see that uniform. I am afraid that the person in the uniform wants to kill me, or wants to kill my three year old niece, because of our religion or race. Or, maybe they don't necessarily want to kill me, but they'd stand by and laugh as someone else did because they're secretly anti-Semitic and are just couching that prejudice in a joke. At the very least I'll think they're stupid, ignoring or ignorant of all the history and lessons taught by the Holocaust because "they looked cool" (not a dig on Axelai, it's a common argument), which is threatening because these are exactly the kind of people that are susceptible to hate and propaganda like the Nazis used to commit horrible crimes. And then I have to ask myself why someone would put other people through that? At worst it's a kind of terrorism to make all the Semitic people uncomfortable and leave. At best it's a "haha I like to piss people off" third-grade form of bullying or a hurtful "I wanna do what I wanna do and I don't care who I hurt" ignorant selfishness. I wouldn't talk to or get my picture taken with any of them because I don't choose to associate with any of these kinds of people.

Spetsnaz
01-12-2011, 02:00 PM
I am afraid that the person in the uniform wants to kill me, or wants to kill my three year old niece, because of our religion or race. Or, maybe they don't necessarily want to kill me, but they'd stand by and laugh as someone else did because they're secretly anti-Semitic and are just couching that prejudice in a joke. At the very least I'll think they're stupid, ignoring or ignorant of all the history and lessons taught by the Holocaust because "they looked cool" (not a dig on Axelai, it's a common argument), which is threatening because these are exactly the kind of people that are susceptible to hate and propaganda like the Nazis used to commit horrible crimes.

Seriously?

No.

I recommend you read my post. If you're that paranoid about people. Seriously...

It's one thing if it's Nazis, but I can tell you're grouping everything into one. Which is a common mistake.

Waffen SS and SS, I see fear in that.

True 'skinheads', yeah. Not good.

But, I seriously have a feeling you're bridging everything together into one.

AuroraCeleste
01-13-2011, 09:36 AM
No, if I had meant German Military I would have said "German Military". I conflated "Military arm of the Nazi Party" to Nazi. I read your post, and as a historian I understand the difference.

I read your post. It doesn't state that 37% of hate crimes in New York State in 2009 were against Jews. That's more than blacks (21%), and homosexuals (12%). Anti-Semitism is still alive in the United States. Synagogues get bomb threats monthly. That makes me see the threat as real, since it's happening now.

And also, I read your post about reenacting. It doesn't say anything about cosplaying except "it doesn't belong". I think it would help if you would stop reading every post as if they were personally talking about and attacking you. You've already said that you don't wear your uniforms to cons, so my post doesn't apply to you at all.

Spetsnaz
01-13-2011, 10:33 AM
I read your post. It doesn't state that 37% of hate crimes in New York State in 2009 were against Jews. That's more than blacks (21%), and homosexuals (12%). Anti-Semitism is still alive in the United States. Synagogues get bomb threats monthly. That makes me see the threat as real, since it's happening now.

Why would I if this is not the point of this topic? I'm sorry, but what do these stats (If the numbers are even correct to call stats, since you lack a source. ) have to do with anything discussed. Are you, in some form, trying to play a card here? Because it sure seems like it. This portion I quoted has absolutely no bearing on this subject at all.

If we were talking about neo-nazism. Perhaps. But we're discussing uniforms at conventions. So. No.

AuroraCeleste
01-13-2011, 07:04 PM
I'm sorry, let me put that statement into context for you:

If you're that paranoid about people. Seriously...


And:

par·a·noi·a (pr-noi)
n.
1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.

I was pointing out the rationality of my fear and disproving your slur on me and dismissal of my point as irrational.

Spetsnaz
01-13-2011, 07:22 PM
I useda slur...? Where?

This is why no one can discuss. People come on here and begin a ton of drama and grasp at straws to "get at" someone.

I said what needed and I think that is that. I am just going to move on, since nothing rational is being achieved here and accusations are being thrown at me.

I tried to bring light of reenacting...but looks like the act of shooting at the hip about who reenactors are is still a common practice.

supergeekgirl
01-14-2011, 11:13 AM
I tried to bring light of reenacting...but looks like the act of shooting at the hip about who reenactors are is still a common practice.

I agree with you here. Remember the big news story about the politician in Ohio and his "Nazi" photos with his son? That pissed me off because it's the same crap reenactors have gotten for a long time from the media. Someone has to play the villains, and it doesn't mean that they really want to be villains. Still, while I believe the media ought to have a more correct portrayal of reenacting, we can't keep everyone in the world from being offended when they see Nazi uniforms.

I like you, Aurora, but I can't help but think that your posts in this thread are the sort of thing I see a lot on this site - people finding threads about something they have a "right" to find offensive and posting until it becomes somewhat of a flame war. Thank you, by the way, for your insight on my other thread. It was very much appreciated. I'm sorry that I didn't say anything there, but I didn't want to bump the thread with a "thanks" when there were more important threads about the Folio.

But yeah... I'm starting to think we as Americans have a desperate desire to feel persecuted and excluded and will dig not only into our family pasts but into our subconscious desires to find something "different" about ourselves. I used to do it too until I realized what I was doing. My family is German. My mother's family were German Jews, some of whom died in camps. Her family didn't move here until the 60s. Still, I won't use that connection to speak for everyone.

I guess, though, this entire thread stands as a warning to those of us who may do something offensive. We need to expect people to be offended, plain and simple. We can explain ourselves over and over, but in the end, those of us who dare to dress as villains, play the losing role in war reenactments, or generally do something that could be deemed offensive by someone (hint: just about everything) need to learn to take people's snap judgments and comments with a grain of salt. It's been hard to learn, and sometimes I want to explain, explain, explain, but eventually I realize that people all come from different backgrounds and cultures (even within the same country). Free speech is a right we have (usually), but we were never given the right not to be offended or disagreed with or disliked for that speech.

kaligoddess
01-16-2011, 03:56 PM
Ignoring my personal views on idividual Nazi cosplayers for a moment, I'm more concerned about me being accidentally associated with one. Going back to the OP:
But I'm curious to know what a tourist at Comiket would have throught of the nazis. Or what someone online might think seeing my photo posed with one.

How do Nazi cosplayers feel when their pictures are thrown up on the internet? (I'm assuming that these are truly cosplayers and not sympathizers.) How would you feel if you showed up in a picture with a Nazi cosplayer even if it's not posed? How would you feel if your family/friends found a picture of you near a Nazi cosplayer? How do people feel about searching for 'Whatevercon 20XX' and finding pictures of a Nazi cosplayer? How do you feel about non-cosplayers thinking that WhateverCon is associated with Nazis?

I'm picturing my boss googling me and finding out that I'm into anime and conventions, then whatever con I may mention on my homepage and WHAMO, pictures of Germany from Axis Powers or Hellsing or whatever.

In the context of me being a spectator to a historical re-enactment, I don't think I'd mind being associated with someone in a Nazi costume. I would probably be uncomfortable, but I'm a historian myself and discomfort is something I deal with all the time when researching all the horrible things humans have done to one another. However, I would be offended if I was all decked out as Rock Lee and find myself in the background of a shot of someone doing Nazi salute as it's completely out of context.

kiratsukai
01-16-2011, 05:03 PM
How do Nazi cosplayers feel when their pictures are thrown up on the internet? (I'm assuming that these are truly cosplayers and not sympathizers.)

I'm not sure how this would be the photographer's responsibility, seeing as the subject in question has deemed it a good idea to show up to a public event with an obvious photography element in a controversial costume.

Going to have to cry foul on this one :P

No one else is responsible to protect you from your potentially poor decisions, or to hide them from your employers. If you're worried about being photographed in nazi gear: don't wear nazi gear.

kaligoddess
01-16-2011, 05:51 PM
I'm not sure how this would be the photographer's responsibility, seeing as the subject in question has deemed it a good idea to show up to a public event with an obvious photography element in a controversial costume.


Where did I say it was the photographer's responsibility?

I'm asking how Nazi players feel when they see a picture of themselves. Do they think 'hey, I look awesome!' or 'I hope everyone sees this!' or 'oh crap, my grandma's going to kill me' or 'I hope my boss doesn't see this.'

yumedeli
01-17-2011, 05:37 PM
To be honest I don't think many cosplayers even care. I had a friend who cosplayed schrodinger from hellsing some years ago, and I was really uneasy about it, but she just didn't really care, it's just a character after all. I did notice that the pictures on her dA are made on a way you can't really see the red band easily.

And @ other people seeing this not knowing the context. With all the weird stuff out there nazi is only one of the many things that could freak them out, skimpy outfits Check, demons check, animals check. If you're afraid of what other people think of you (like your boss) and they use their google-fu, big chance you'll be screwed any way, nazi or no nazi's. Plus there are loads of military costumes out there which scream nazi(more then some of the supposedly nazi ones even), but aren't. What about those?

dreamsofnever
01-17-2011, 10:36 PM
Ignoring the hurt that's been done to millions of people's families just because "it's in the past" and you want to feel entitled is rather selfish, in my opinion. It marginalizes those who have already been made victims.

I think this says it all.

To me, the difference between portraying a bad guy/girl from a video game or comic, etc, is the fact that the person you're betraying IS fiction. There were no actual people harmed by this person. Whereas, many were harmed by the Nazis and so I think it is insensitive to wear a Nazi costume (or blackface, or a Ku Klux Klan costume). Also, there are still neo-Nazis TODAY. So this is not just a thing of the 'past.' The racism and hatred still continues today and there are those who continue to use that sign to signify that they still keep the Nazi ideals alive and well.

It's worse to be 'in character' as a Nazi I believe. Who's to say that the person described in the original post isn't a neo-Nazi who believes in white supremacist ideals? And even if he is not, I can imagine that there would be those who would be not only offended by his acting in-character, but possibly feel threatened if they were Jewish or of a race other than white. If a costume and acting in-character has the potential to make many people feel unsafe, I believe that it's not right to wear that costume. And again, I think there is a difference between portraying a fictional character and portraying a historical group of people that murdered so many.

*edit because I just read further and saw the part about reenactments and Tsumanne's wonderful post about the context in which people wore Nazi uniforms to this particular con:

I think reenactments are a very different case and as someone else mentioned, someone needs to play the bad guy in reenactments.

I think when wearing the costume to an event that is not a reenactment, the symbol shouldn't be worn and the person shouldn't be 'in character' because there should be some sensitivity to how others may feel in regards to this.

Ironhill
01-17-2011, 10:47 PM
It's not the anime or costumer community that I worry about. It's the mundanes. The people that call anime cartoons and make up 95 to 98% of the world that you can get in trouble with. It's when the con shares the hotel or convention center with other groups that could be offended that problems can develop. If a hotel rents a ballroom to a church group every weekend and then complains about a conventions behavor, then the con might need to find a new hotel the next year.

Remember, you are representing the anime community when you cosplay in public. What you say and do are the basis of what other people will form their opinion of anime fans. You should always try to present your best.

ashelia89
01-18-2011, 05:35 PM
I always separated historical costuming from cosplay,after all historical costuming is applying history and re enacting,I have always had a strong respect for those who do historical costuming because they are studying events that were once real and supplying the information with no bias towards one side or the other simple neutrality *as far as opinions go*as is meant to be shown.

As far as cosplay for "nazis" that don't fall into any category of "it's in an anime series or any game series of the like " what are people trying to say with that ? I always just wondered...another question I have is "do people who dress up as nazis without any historical or cosplay context realize that they are painting themselves a big red target towards many people ? maybe even the police and government ? "

Scorpion89
05-07-2011, 11:12 AM
First off a little historical background on the Arm Band is need. the only folks in Germany that could wear the Arm band were folks who actually belong to the NAZI Party that was the rule now as far as I can tell the German Characters from Hellsing have never stated they were part of the NAZI Party hence they shouldn't be wearing the Arm Ban. As far as I know it has never been stated by the authors of Hellsing that they belong to the NAZI Party so they are wrong to have them wearing the Arm Ban.

As far as wearing German Uniforms well I'm a WWII reactor who portrays a major in the Luftwaffe and have no issue with it at all.

tehkukikookie
05-07-2011, 11:25 AM
Well the thing is, Nazis are real and cartoon characters are...not. Comparing the two isn't really going to prove anything. However, this goes back to how the person in costume is acting. Are they doing heils? Are the people in blackface (which I don't care if it's a costume, I think it's offensive) saying racial slurs or doing overall racist things? If not, I'll be less offended by the latter and still not offended by the former.

Axelai
05-07-2011, 11:26 AM
First off a little historical background on the Arm Band is need. the only folks in Germany that could wear the Arm band were folks who actually belong to the NAZI Party that was the rule now as far as I can tell the German Characters from Hellsing have never stated they were part of the NAZI Party hence they shouldn't be wearing the Arm Ban. As far as I know it has never been stated by the authors of Hellsing that they belong to the NAZI Party so they are wrong to have them wearing the Arm Ban.

As far as wearing German Uniforms well I'm a WWII reactor who portrays a major in the Luftwaffe and have no issue with it at all.

Oh god, please don't revive a long dead thread. The drama of this had died down. x___x

Scorpion89
05-07-2011, 11:48 AM
Well the thing is, Nazis are real and cartoon characters are...not. Comparing the two isn't really going to prove anything. However, this goes back to how the person in costume is acting. Are they doing heils? Are the people in blackface (which I don't care if it's a costume, I think it's offensive) saying racial slurs or doing overall racist things? If not, I'll be less offended by the latter and still not offended by the former.

Actually yes it will because as I stated the folks who came up with Hellsing need to come out and stated if the character are part of thr Nazi party or not also as I stated only Nazi Party members could wear the Arm Ban. Also only certain German Military Personal wore the Arm Ban. Hence my first question to someone who is going to dress up as one of the Hellsing character would be do you know the actual history behind the uniform and Arm Ban your wearing if not may I suggest you go and learn.

Scorpion89
05-07-2011, 11:52 AM
Oh god, please don't revive a long dead thread. The drama of this had died down. x___x

Why it's something that should be discussed in the open and maybe if someone is thinking about dressing as one of the Hellsing German Characters they will rethink about should I be wearing the Arm Ban or not. Like I said I wear a German Air Force Uniform at allot of Airshows that I attend does that make me a Nazi no because I know the difference between the to most German Pilots didn't belong to the Nazi Party hell only 30% of the total German Military belong to the Nazi Party.

Axelai
05-07-2011, 12:01 PM
Why it's something that should be discussed in the open and maybe if someone is thinking about dressing as one of the Hellsing German Characters they will rethink about should I be wearing the Arm Ban or not. Like I said I wear a German Air Force Uniform at allot of Airshows that I attend does that make me a Nazi no because I know the difference between the to most German Pilots didn't belong to the Nazi Party hell only 30% of the total German Military belong to the Nazi Party.

Thats not the point.

The point is that this thread creating butt tons of drama between members, and I'm pretty sure everyone was happy it died down.

Reviving it makes me sense the drama returning. Which is no fun for anyone.

Also, please use the multi-quote tool or the Edit tool as to not double post.

Scorpion89
05-07-2011, 12:15 PM
Thats not the point.

The point is that this thread creating butt tons of drama between members, and I'm pretty sure everyone was happy it died down.

Reviving it makes me sense the drama returning. Which is no fun for anyone.

Also, please use the multi-quote tool or the Edit tool as to not double post.

Hmm I didn't double post if you look I answered two different post as for drama what drama if you sit their and question what and why your wearing such an uniform and if someone comes along and points out the truth behind the Arm Ban and Uniform and make all of us sit down and write the folks who came up with Hellsing to stated if these characters are really Nazi's or just German Soldiers then what harm is their matter of fact it's called be educated about history.

Axelai
05-07-2011, 12:23 PM
Hmm I didn't double post if you look I answered two different post as for drama what drama if you sit their and question what and why your wearing such an uniform and if someone comes along and points out the truth behind the Arm Ban and Uniform and make all of us sit down and write the folks who came up with Hellsing to stated if these characters are really Nazi's or just German Soldiers then what harm is their matter of fact it's called be educated about history.

You can put multiple quotes in a post. Thats what you're supposed to do. If you want to respond to multiple posts, there is a multi-quote option here. You're supposed to do that, otherwise a mod comes in and fixes it all (and thats really not fair to them).

And... dear god *facepalm* I honestly think you don't understand what I'm saying. I guess thats my own fault for sucking at English.

Go create drama. Your choice. I just hope no one brings it back at me like last time. *proceeds to leave thread again*

FalconW
05-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Hope this doesn't engulf into any flaming but what if you're cosplaying a WWII German soldier/pilot/tanker that isn't technically a nazi? I am aware that Nazis were the ones in power and most soldiers in the armed forces weren't nazi supporters and were just ordered to fight for their country. I kinda get bothered when I see on some documentaries that they call all German soldiers Nazis.

Scorpion89
05-08-2011, 04:42 PM
Hope this doesn't engulf into any flaming but what if you're cosplaying a WWII German soldier/pilot/tanker that isn't technically a nazi? I am aware that Nazis were the ones in power and most soldiers in the armed forces weren't nazi supporters and were just ordered to fight for their country. I kinda get bothered when I see on some documentaries that they call all German soldiers Nazis.

Their is a very big difference between being part of the SA or SS and the rest of the German Military. Oh and for the record I don't cosplay a German Pilot I'm a reactor who attends Airshows with other reactor who give a living history interpretation I'm also a pilot and I fly WWII aircraft including a few German aircraft.

I could go into the difference between the SA and SS and the Regular German Army if you like.

supergeekgirl
05-09-2011, 09:14 AM
Yes, I was happy this thread died. Please, let's let it die again and NOT bring the drama into the WWII Cosplay thread.

sam vimes
05-09-2011, 09:11 PM
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4006/4629559422_f42d99a4cc.jpg

herr_major_is_i
09-01-2011, 03:18 AM
I'm really in love with these debates, they offer an amazing variety of opinions and views unheard of that you could just not get by getting into the "offending party's" shoes and find out yourself. But really, I go to most of my conventions in German uniforms I put together all by myself, and i have literally only encountered one or two haters in over thirty conventions over a period of six years, and neither were violent. and to those worried about getting your ass beat at a con... that's very optimistic. If anyone ever walks up to me and asks "why?" I tell them it's a specific character from a specific show. I have a diverse array of very German uniforms in my closet, but I have never, nor will I ever, wear one to a convention that is just "a random Nazi." it HAS to be a specific, recognizable character from a specific show. (I have also been recruited for multiple themed costume groups for hogan's heroes, inglorious basterds, and nazi zombies, one i particularly look forward to!)

FYI, If you run into people in uniforms THAT authentic (the OP's photo), it's usually safe to assume that they are reenactors or historical enthusiasts. Especially if they look to be of that age. and yes, they make conventions for that too. one takes place half hour from my home every year and the displays are amazing, everything from Roman Empire to WWII is on display.

As far as cultural influence and debate, All I have to say, is that I would rather the responsibility to be placed on the person who chooses to attend what they are allowed to wear. the same goes for props. if you have a prop that looks like or can be used as a weapon, you should be allowed to carry it. if you USE it as a weapon in anyway, you should be kicked out. Permanently. no questions asked.

If I went to another country for a convention, I wouldn't expect those people to be ready to please me or suit my taste. THAT would be selfish. If i don't like it, I don't have to be there. Regarding our own culture? I adopt a "forgive and forget, and never say never" way of thinking. I do not hold anything against any one culture, and I am very polite no matter what I am wearing at a convention, and i do not do the "right wing" salute, however I DO do the standard military salute. I thank people for politely expressing their opinions, positive or negative. and I tend to stick around Hellsingers, Italys, Indiana Jones', or Captain Americas to emphasize the implication.

LadyGlitterbow
09-05-2011, 01:00 PM
I personally believe that dressing up and poking fun at each other is important. People have to loosen up, or there's no way the world's going to get over racism. I think it's healthy as long as you respect other people's personal space and act like a nice, normal human.
As for protecting travelers, it's not our duty to protect others from our culture. THEY are the ones visiting, after all! I went to Japan and saw some things that sure were different, but that just makes for a good story when you get home.

supergeekgirl
09-09-2011, 10:34 AM
If I went to another country for a convention, I wouldn't expect those people to be ready to please me or suit my taste. THAT would be selfish.

I can't say how much I agree with this. Because certain things offend a lot of Americans, we expect that everyone in the world finds those things offensive.

DannyJ72
11-04-2011, 02:43 PM
Whenever I see someone dressed in a uniform or so, I dont really mind or get upset, just a little uncomfortable sometimes. Im a history major and I just worry that the people who dress that way don't understand fully what they're dressing as. You can paint them anyway you want, but you can never really figure out their true motives unless you were someone living at that time. I dont mean this just for the nazi costumes, but any historically based costume. If you do, however, completely understand what you're doing, the person you're depicting yourself as, then I support your decision. Though I do get a good chuckle out of Abraham Lincoln's regardless.

I'd have to say the only thing that really upsets me is when someone is just walking around in an armband. At CTcon in 2011, there were a good bunch of people dressed in a weird amalgamation of items, from zombie contacts, to raver outfits, and nazi armbands. My friends and I were in a zombie group and had been approached by G4tv to do a little shoot with their correspondent. When we did it, however, one of these random people ran over into the shot, displaying the armband front and center. As a result the shot never left the cutting room floor.

I think if something like that happens again, I will make a stink about it to the person's in offense face. Like I've said before, if someone is dressed in a full outfit, fully aware of what they are doing, then fine. But if they're someone who thinks adding an armband on their outfit is just simply cool, they're going to get a history lecture from Professor J.

Edit: To add onto this, I recently heard a story, unsure if it's true or not, but the teller was convinced. Someone had dressed in a SS Uniform, but decided to leave the convention center for whatever reason. They took a Bus around Hartford to get to their destination, and on board an elderly lady began crying because she had been detained in a Concentration Camp during WWII. Like I said before, you have to understand what you emulate with these outfits was real. With other cosplays, its harmless since they are built on fictional events. When someone sees you wearing a German WW2 outfit, regardless if it is Nazi styled or not, they will relate you to the great pain and suffering caused by the regime as a natural human impulse.

Mr Oni
11-24-2011, 06:01 AM
Please remember that the japanese were every bit as bad if not worse than the Nazis doing world war2. Also remember the Nazis were there allies they share a common bond together. They don't have the same feelings toward the swastika people in the west have. Remember Japan is probably the most racist country in the world today and it has nothing to do with swastika wearing cosplayers.

Scorpion89
11-25-2011, 05:41 AM
Please remember that the japanese were every bit as bad if not worse than the Nazis doing world war2. Also remember the Nazis were there allies they share a common bond together. They don't have the same feelings toward the swastika people in the west have. Remember Japan is probably the most racist country in the world today and it has nothing to do with swastika wearing cosplayers.

Hmm that is a little more then a blanket statement you care to try to back that one up

Mr Oni
11-25-2011, 08:31 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan check out wiki go from there. Look for it japanese tv shows also.

Scorpion89
11-25-2011, 10:44 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_issues_in_Japan check out wiki go from there. Look for it japanese tv shows also.

First off I don't trust anything that Wikii has second have you every lived or worked in Japan I have and I can tell you this from my personal background that European Countries are far more Racist then Japan is.

If your going to throw crap out like you have better be prepared to back it up with real facts not some post on Wikii or TV Shows because hell i can point to all osrt of TV Shows in the USA that are just as bad.

Mangochutney
11-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Both of you--seriously, just stop typing and go away. Do it now.

Scorpion89
11-25-2011, 04:20 PM
Both of you--seriously, just stop typing and go away. Do it now.

In a word No last time I looked this was an open forum and I haven't put up anything that violates the TOS for this forum if you don't like the topic or discussion then don't open and read the thread no one is putting a gun to your head and making you do it.

Mangochutney
11-25-2011, 07:03 PM
Yes, this a public forum. No, there are no explicit rules against saying what you said. No, I don't have to read the thread. None of that is important.

You're being gross and exceptionally embarrassing. That affects everyone on this site. Knock it off.

Scorpion89
11-25-2011, 08:27 PM
Yes, this a public forum. No, there are no explicit rules against saying what you said. No, I don't have to read the thread. None of that is important.

You're being gross and exceptionally embarrassing. That affects everyone on this site. Knock it off.

far from from it I'm pretty sure my time in Japan out ways anything he can put up, he made a blanket statement and hasn't come back to show me or anyone else how Japan is a Racist Country have you lived or worked in Japan???

As for the Nazi stuff well I think it's safe to say you can call me an expert on this with over 30 Years of doing German Living History Units.