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Ami
02-02-2004, 08:14 AM
I was wondering when your in full costume and you have to use the faclities at a con or party or whatever, depending on if your a guy crossplaying as a girl char or a girl crossplaying as a guy char, which bathroom do you use and how do you decide..... I was just wondering because that little issue lodged in my head this morning when I was thinking.......

Sala
02-02-2004, 09:11 AM
Um, for the sake of decency, please use the bathroom assigned to your physical gender. I think people of the opposite gender who have nothing to do with crossplay would be quite put-out if someone of the opposite gender were using their restroom...
As a woman I would feel much more uncomfortable using a men's restroom, because little/no privacy is offered to those using the urinals. I would feel very pervy going into the men's restroom as I am a woman. For men using the women's restroom, it's not so big a deal, because the stall doors shield most outside influences. Unfortunately, there's also the issue of men dressing like women just to get inside the women's lavatory to peep on the girls. I know that the chances of this happening are slim-to-none, but it could happen...

KuroBara
02-02-2004, 09:18 AM
*laughs* A friend's mother, who is an excellent costumer, wore a Jack Sparrow costume to the school she teaches at for Halloween. It was excellent, even I didn't recognize her in the photos or think she was a woman. The kids loved it, but when she went to the ladies room a first grader gasped and told her teacher "A man just went into the girls room!" That was probably the biggest compliment she could receive.

Despite your outward appearance, always use the bathroom that matches your physical gender, as AnimeRei3 said.

dani
02-02-2004, 09:41 AM
I was wondering when your in full costume and you have to use the faclities at a con or party or whatever, depending on if your a guy crossplaying as a girl char or a girl crossplaying as a guy char, which bathroom do you use and how do you decide..... I was just wondering because that little issue lodged in my head this morning when I was thinking.......
The issue is a complex one, and it has many factors.

I happen to know a bit about it, because I've been participating for years in gender related organizations. The issue has been debated at length with lawyers and lawmakers and it has even brough to court more than once.

The basic elements IN CANADA are:

- There is NO LAW requiring someone to use a specific washroom. Trying to enforce it has been challenged as a cosntitutional issue.

- There ARE laws about public disturbance, harrasment and proper behaviour.

- The safety of ALL is the goal, including the crossdressed person and other washroom patrons.

Considering all that, the rules I (and many knowledgeable people I know) follow are:

- When at a con or other gathering where crossdressing is expected, I'd use the male washroom.

- When the aspect and behaviour is unmistakeably a joke, a parody or a performance, I'd use the male washroom.

- At a public place where the aspect and behaviour would be similar to any other female, I'd use the female washroom. Some might not like it but it's the safest course of action, and sanctioned by the court to boot.

The final question is: in which washroom would I cause the least disturbance ot others, and less potential for danger to me? Only you can answer that, and the law (at least here in Ontario) will support you in your decision.

As a reference, here is the POLICY ON DISCRIMINATION AND HARASSMENT BECAUSE OF GENDER IDENTITY of the Ontario Human Rights Commission.
http://www.ohrc.on.ca/english/publications/gender-identity-policy.shtml
Does it apply to you? it might, it might not, but you can see it is NOT a cut-and-dry issue as having certain surgery or not.

Enjoy....
Dani

neko rinchan
02-02-2004, 10:55 AM
i personally don't see a problem with the bathroom thing. i'm a girl, and when crossplaying a guy i use the girl's bathroom. even if i *look* like a guy, there isn't a problem because there are stalls for privacy, and if i weird some people out, who cares.
i won't use a boy's bathroom because of the urinals (tht would weird me out walking in and somebody was using one) unless there's a really long line to the girl's bathroom, the boy's bathroom is empty and i don't feel like waiting... but i digress...
if a guy is crossdressing as a girl, and is comfortable using the male bathroom while in costume, go for it (even though they might weird out the other male occupants). but if they want to use the girl's bathroom, i still don't see a problem, because there are still stalls for privacy. if i saw a crossplayer in the "wrong" bathroom, i wouldn't be offended, i'd find it funny.
people should stop being anal and uptight about things that don't really matter. who cares what bathroom you use, because it is not a big deal and should not be a big deal.

Mizuno Tenshi
02-02-2004, 12:53 PM
I'd have to agree with Neko_Rinchan. While it may seem sexist, it makes more sense for a guy dressed as a girl to be able to use the female washroom than for a girl dressed as a guy to use the male one. Female restrooms don't have the "exposure factor", and for a crossdressed male, a bunch of females are less likely to give a beating. But at a con or such, where crossplay is expected, I'd suggest using the appropriate washroom. ^__^

Tenshi

Gren
02-02-2004, 02:36 PM
At a con, use your appropriate bathroom. I don't care how much you look like the opposite. If it's really really something you agonize over, find a friend with a room.

chibi_kitsune
02-02-2004, 02:43 PM
Well if your really a girl then use the girls bathroom and if your really a guy then use the guys bathroom. A lot of people at cons crossplay so I think they would understand.

Ragresen
02-02-2004, 03:00 PM
When Crossplaying if you have to go just take a break back to your room and deal with it. But if an Emergancy go to the restroom of your gender not the gander you are crossplaying.

Lyn
02-02-2004, 03:32 PM
I must admit, I've had times where I was going to the girls' room and felt almost guilty about it because of my attire. lol Always makes for a good laught amoungst my friends whenever I have to use the bathroom.

But I would NEVER use the men's bathroom. o_o Even if the ladies room has a really long line, I wait my turn instead of going into the men's like some girls will do when they're impatient. ^^;

Starlit Rose
02-02-2004, 05:37 PM
Heh, I myself would never use the men's restroom when cosplaying (unless I REALLY had to go and there was a long line for the women's and the men's was empty =P then I'd have someone watch out for me XD). It would be too akward for both me and the guys standing at the urinals. o.O; So yeah, hehe. Always the women's for me otherwise, no matter now convincing I looked. =P Now, I don't have a problem with a guy crossplaying coming into the girl's restroom since we have stalls and such. I think it would be amusing more than offending.

And just a note - the picture of me in the men's restroom in my gallery WAS checked by a (guy) friend before entering. XD

L to the 3rd
02-02-2004, 06:30 PM
crossplaying or not i say use the restroom that u would normally use outside of costume.. usually when 'm crossplaying as a male, i try to go
in my hotel bathroom.. but if i really have to go go, i take off a my jacket or some part of my costume prior to entry, to show my feminity.

Ami
02-02-2004, 07:39 PM
wow thats alot of different opinions.... ok so the general idea is that some people like it the same some dont care some prefer it safe the other way.... I my self dont have to worry about ill go wherever its convient... so yeah alot of opions and i thank everybody and look foward to the rest of your comments, im also guessing the same laws appy for washington state.. i got some research to do....

Skullez
02-02-2004, 07:39 PM
heh i use the girls bathroom even when i cros play a dude.
lol ppl seem to get a kick outa it =^.^= ! lol but at the awa9 this year i had to have my frien mike help put on my costume for Suu from clover cuz of the damn wings!!! we had alouta tape! all cuz the harnest broke!!!

Cait
02-02-2004, 08:15 PM
That's one of the taboos of Western Society, isn't it? Honestly, its just another room. I'll automatically go to the girls restroom, but if dared, or if the line was trajicly long, I'd use the mens. I don't care if I was in costume or not, let alone crossplaying.... ^_^'''' We do this all the time at work with the staff bathrooms. Forty girls and three boys... you kind of have to! Its not like you're going to be shot on site, you know? I've even casually walked into the men's locker room in a low traffic time. Most people don't really care.

Karisu-sama
02-02-2004, 08:56 PM
I'd usually only use the men's restroom under circumstances where the rooms have been designated "anyone's use" - and I have been to places where that has officially happened, because when you have 100s of people and 2 little restrooms with 3 stalls each, it becomes ridiculous.

People expect crossplay at conventions. Therefore, it is generally assumed that when you see a "man" enter the women's room or a "woman" enter the men's room, that person is probably just a very convincing crossplayer using their regular room (an upclose study will usually give the illusion away for all but the most successful "passers".)

And if a crossplayer actually DOES completely pass - who's going to care about what they don't even know? The crossplayer would probably keep a real discreet profile to maintain the "pass" anyway, not reveal themself. Women are more likely to have a "fear of a guy seeing them in an indiscreet moment" - but women's rooms have all stalls anyway.

Ami
02-02-2004, 09:46 PM
ah that makes sense to me... come to think of it.... both bathrooms have stalls I know ive had to clean both types, so unless you have a very close preference it doesnt really matter, unless like everybody said the line is to long......... am i close?

AlikNyankoChan
02-02-2004, 10:36 PM
A toilet is a toilet...who cares. What the hell is the point of the urinals anyway...men can go sitting down just as well, last I knew. Crossplaying or not, again, who cares...go in whatever bathroom you like.

~Alik

neko rinchan
02-02-2004, 10:41 PM
A toilet is a toilet...who cares. What the hell is the point of the urinals anyway...men can go sitting down just as well, last I knew. Crossplaying or not, again, who cares...go in whatever bathroom you like.

~Alik

Exactly. 'Nuff said.

Ami
02-02-2004, 11:28 PM
amen to that ill take that as an answer any day good job AlikNyankoChan

vyrax778
02-02-2004, 11:50 PM
I just use the regular restroom unless ihave to really go and theres the rare line for the mens room.

Kuri-chan
02-03-2004, 10:56 AM
Legally in the United States, if the restroom is designated for a particular gender, you must use the restroom designated for the gender you legally match. That means crossplaying or not, no matter how well you pass, you are still obligated by U.S. decency and privacy laws to use the gender appropriate restroom.

Transsexuals are the only acception to this rule, as a pre-op may go with the gender listed on their legal ID. I know this as a dear friend is a pre-op transsexual, and has had to jump through all these hoops.

I’m not saying I agree with the law, but that’s the way it stands in the States, to my most recent knowledge.

When in doubt, go with what it says on your drivers license. ^^;;

-Kuri

Ami
02-03-2004, 12:35 PM
this stands to reason and I can see how it would seem but I think even though its law breaking i'd rather take the chance of getting cited for going into the wrong rest room rather then taking a chance of getting the @#$% beat out of me if i go into a guys restroom.... plus its a very slim chance that you'll get caught for a couple reasons..

A. If your that good at crossplaying whos gonna know
B. Whats the chances that a cop is gonna steak out a bathroom to catch people
c. Even if I did get caught it would be somthing like a small misdemeander not that big
d. Unless someone askes me to go to the other rest room its really not that big of a thing
e. and if somebody does ask its ok id go no prob...

so yeah thats my opinion on the whole its against the law thing

chibi_kitsune
02-03-2004, 02:12 PM
this stands to reason and I can see how it would seem but I think even though its law breaking i'd rather take the chance of getting cited for going into the wrong rest room rather then taking a chance of getting the @#$% beat out of me if i go into a guys restroom.... plus its a very slim chance that you'll get caught for a couple reasons..

A. If your that good at crossplaying whos gonna know
B. Whats the chances that a cop is gonna steak out a bathroom to catch people
c. Even if I did get caught it would be somthing like a small misdemeander not that big
d. Unless someone askes me to go to the other rest room its really not that big of a thing
e. and if somebody does ask its ok id go no prob...

so yeah thats my opinion on the whole its against the law thing

Well I pretty sure that you won't get beaten up at cons since alot of people crossplay their anyways so people are more understanding their but not all people are I guess but nothing to really worry about at least I don't think so.

Reno_kun
02-03-2004, 02:31 PM
I have cross played before and it's really not a big deal to me wich bathroom i use, i'm a guy by the way, all in all wich ever has the shorter line when crossplaying as a girl i use.

Ami
02-03-2004, 03:12 PM
lol very well put and most likeley true but one of my fav sayings just because your paranoid doesnt mean they arent after you lol.... yes i am just a bit crazy...

Hikaruchan
02-03-2004, 03:16 PM
I know I have gotten strange looks before going into women's room even just when crossplaying guys, til I have said hello so other women could tell I was a girl and relaxed. So, just because its a con - a crossplaying guy going into women's room could weird some female attendees out.

Ami
02-03-2004, 05:10 PM
lol in that case we be descrete and try not to make to much ruckus.... so what im gathering is its differnt for every person

RHIshida
02-03-2004, 05:54 PM
Here's how it works. In restrooms designated for sexes, you have to go to the restroom of your sex. (Obviously, transsexuals who have been legally declared the opposite sex are the opposite sex therefore they can go to that restroom.) A man (whether or not he is crossplaying) that goes into the women's restroom can be charged with sexual harassment charges, and may even be considered a sexual predator. The rule applies vice-versa. The better thing to do is to just ask a friend to use the restroom in their hotel room, because if you get caught and somebody feels like pressing charges, you could get into serious trouble.

Ami
02-03-2004, 06:06 PM
very true but if you are that confident of your abilites you'll be ok but on the flipside sombody beats the @#$% because they think your a pansy or fag when you go into your desiginated restroom is just as bad as getting charged so its a a double edged blade either way.... (edit) sorry that sounds a bit one sided i just find it some what incorrect that we have been divided this much over the years this is a differnet version of segration but not into that subject, im just sayin if it sounds like im flammin at anybody I apologize i am just very opinionated

CapsuleCorp
02-03-2004, 08:54 PM
Trust me, at cons, you stand little to no chance of suffering bodily harm. There's lots of people in costume and a fair number crossplaying, so even if you somehow manage to pass 100% convincingly as a member of the opposite sex, which few of us do, no one's going to beat you up for going into the bathroom. You're in a costume, they'll know you're okay. Relax!

Ami
02-03-2004, 10:30 PM
lol thanks capsule best advice ive heard yet...... im just thinking im gonna go to a couple restarants between the convention and if it takes me an hour and half to get ready another half hour to get undone and i have to be constintly on the run case they need me on staff or some reason.... it would just be better not to worry about having to change back and forth.... you are right though just go with it its gonna happen one way or another...

Nine
02-04-2004, 02:57 AM
When you're at a convention, regardless of what costume you're wearing,

If you're a male, use the male washroom
If you're a female, use the female washroom

That's how I see it. *shrugs*

If you are transgendered, then that's a different topic that I don't want to touch, because I know nothing about it. All I know is that my transgendered friend female>male uses the guys washroom. ^^;

Kuri-chan
02-04-2004, 09:35 AM
The point is not to try to put you into an uncomfortable situation, but to protect others from an uncomfortable situation. Your safety and comfort is important, and so is theirs.

Confidence in passing is great. You might be one of the lucky few who can do it, and get away with it. However, just because you can doesn’t mean you should. It is not as minor of an offence as you or others here make out.

Personally, I am of the opinion shared by most people here. It really shouldn’t matter! Where I lived Japan it was fairly acceptable to use whatever public restroom was available, however you happened to be dressed. No big deal. In an ideal world, no one would make any fuss about it. (But then, in an ideal world you wouldn’t feel threatened for dressing however you like.)

However, if you’re going to a convention in the States it’s another story. You are obligated by U.S. laws that, as Jazon pointed out, govern sexual harassment and privacy.

Here’s the thing: If you walked in on any of us, whatever gender, crossplayed or not, most of us here in the forum would shrug or smile and go on with our lives. No biggie! We don’t care, because we don’t automatically associate gender with sexual activity. But what about the mother who’s never been to an anime convention before, and is bringing her daughter who is cosplaying for the first time? What do you think she’ll think about anime conventions in the future if you don’t pass?

You can turn that around and say “Well what about the father who’s going beat me up for wearing a skirt in front of his son?” What about him? What can he do beyond a few scathing remarks? You are legally protected from assault. The worst he can do is talk, and even then you are still in the right. If he tries to touch you, you’re not just going to sit there and take it, then walk out like everything’s okay, are you? No one is going to tolerate violence at a Con. If someone harasses you, go to security!

If you don’t think about yourself, think about whom you represent. Crossplayers are on the bottom of the fandom and social totem pole. We have more stupid myths perpetuated about us because of confused mundanes who “just don’t get it”. Male crossplayers have it the worst. Please don’t perpetuate the myth that we are somehow freaky or fail to be law abiding by making a bad example for the rest of us.

The only way crossplay will become more accepted and eliminate the need to feel threatened just for going to the bathroom in a costume is by being seen.

So go be seen! If someone doesn’t get it, that’s their loss. Just please, be polite about it, and have the courtesy to not go freaking the mundanes who still tend to get upset at silly things that shouldn’t bother them.

If nothing else, grab a friend to go to the (appropriate) bathroom with! There is not only safety in numbers, but conformity as well! One person is weird. Two people are odd. Three? That makes it downright mundane.

-Kuri

Rosiel
02-04-2004, 10:24 AM
Everyone, please stick to FACTS.

This is not "serious discussion", to ponder your own opinions of the world or in this case bathroom use, this is the crossplay forum, and someone was asking for advice.

Legislation changes from state to state, and legislation won't care whether or not you think it's "a big deal" to use the bathroom that matches your character's gender over your physical gender. So what you need to do if you foresee not being able to use your hotel room's bathroom (or the con's, since cons are crossplayer friendly) is to look up the laws in the state you are currently in. From what I read Oregon is more progressive than states like Texas. There are precedents of people being arrested and charged for using the wrong bathroom so this isn't a joke.

Thank you, Dani, for a thourough explanation of the laws in Canada.

Ami
02-04-2004, 12:58 PM
wow....maybe I should get a mod to shut this thread down.... I was just wondering and it got a bit out of hand.... so it stands we all vary on our opinions and that as they say is that..... so I guess i can have a mod shut this thread down.... ill see in a little while...

Alexia Ikyu
02-04-2004, 11:10 PM
I would loved to move to Ontario. ;)

There was a recent law passed in (State name slipped my mind!) that says that men and women can use either bathroom. The law also says though, if you are found to be in the opposite gender's bathroom for the intended purpose of taking advantage of the cituation, you face high fines. Great idea and good protection against sexual predators, but the high fine could used rather viscously against someone.

dani
02-04-2004, 11:23 PM
I would loved to move to Ontario. ;)
There was a recent law passed in (State name slipped my mind!) that says that men and women can use either bathroom. The law also says though, if you are found to be in the opposite gender's bathroom for the intended purpose of taking advantage of the cituation, you face high fines.
One interesting thing here, is that the rules have never degraded into an epidemic of "peeping toms in skirts". Somehow the system has found a kind of equilibrium that works.

Over the years I must have visited hundreds of washrooms while out en-femme and have yet to receive even one negative word. Of course, I have my lawyer on speed dial just in case and it would be like winning the lotto after the dust settles.

Have fun...

Dani

Karisu-sama
02-05-2004, 12:28 AM
Ami: If you think there's enough advice (which seems to be, IMO) & it's closure time, just say the word.

Ami
02-05-2004, 04:53 PM
your on Karisu-sama..... so my final words i thank everybody for your advice and hope us all the best.... word Karisu-sama take it into the final run later all!