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Maryssa
01-06-2003, 04:59 PM
Okay since to start with, I know 99% of the people on this board have a problem with the way I word my opinions and take them way too personally, so I would like to say this is not directed at ANYONE. This is my observation of this art forum. MY opinion and thats all.

I think it was a wonderful idea to include an art forum here because many cosplayers extend into other artistic areas.

However, I also think this forum should be used in a *beneficial* manner rather than what it is now, which for the most part is a "Hi this is my art and i want you all to give me tons and tons of compliments even though i suck at drawing" place.

Yep. I see next to no criticism. Criticism is how we artists HELP each other. It doesnt mean to say something like "oh her hair sucks I hate it you should go back to drawing school." I think this forum could be a great method of helping each other IMPROVE their already "beautiful/pretty/kawaii/etc" work if people would maybe think a little when looking at someone's work, and take a little more time to give them some real feedback other than "its cute!"

There is nothing wrong with letting someone know you like thier drawing. But that person put a ton of effort into it, and I think would appreciate effort in suggesting how they could improve even more. I know most of you probably think I'm like, the bitch of this forum or whatever because I actually DO criticize the work I see here. But its totally pointless to be posting 39857245 drawings of anime characters that all look the same with no sense of improvement; by just saying 'thats nice!' you arent helping the person, rather hindering them from making a piece that is even NICER.

I understand there are also people who dont really know a lot of technical things about art like the terms for things, but I encourage you all to at least try to say things like 'her arm might look a little bit better if it was bent a little less' or something like that... its not technical, its just a matter of looking at it.

Sidetrack for a second: I have a personal pet peeve when people just post things like HOLY CRAP THATS AWESOME just because this particular person doesn't have any artistic ability... some people have it and some dont, thats it... but dont praise people just because they have it and you dont. I personally don't really take that as a compliment; to me it just sounds like you are putting yourself down.

I know this is a big mouthful for just a tiny part of a big cosplay forum... but I know many of you really enjoy art and even sell your work at cons as I do... hell, by doing this I may be even stiffening the competition for myself at the artist alleys =p But its just something to throw on the table here. From one artist to another kind of thing. There is more to art than just showing off your pretty pictures. There is ALWAYS room to grow!

Sami
01-06-2003, 05:26 PM
I don't visit this forum much because I have little to no artistic talent or knowhow, but I do know that I can agree with Maryssa 110%. Criticism doesn't have to be harsh, but friendly suggestions go a long way.

Something that is a MAJOR pet peeve of mine (and is on a related note to this) is when person A makes a new webpage, and granted it's okay, but there are design flaws and it's really not the best page.. They post the link on their journal or messageboard or what have you asking what people think, and all of the friends of person A take it upon themselves to gush, "OMG THATS SO COOL!!!!!!!" even when it's not the most stellar thing in the world. And they only do it because they're buddies or whatever, but still. I think it's because a lot of people are worried about hurting other people's feelings on their work, but if they word it nicely and don't come off all rude and such, it shouldn't be a problem.

I personally welcome other people's views on my work, because everyone sees things differently, and the more opinions the better. ^_^

Yuna
01-06-2003, 06:13 PM
Thank god you finally got that out of your system sweetie. Yes, I believe art is 10% skill and 90% ambition; that being said part of ambition is taking and aplying constructive critisisim. Mau.

KANEDA
01-06-2003, 07:24 PM
well, i know one problem is that most of the people here (about all of 'em probably) don't have an education in art history or art theory. soooo.....

Spooky Brew
01-06-2003, 07:33 PM
I know many people put the 'that's cute' and 'that's awesome', to tell you what I do it to. I don't do it because I feel like a total loser and everyone else is better than me, I do it because it is my sincere opinion. I like cute things, so if it's cute, it's cute. If it's awesome, it's awesome. If there is something for criticism, then I will surely voice my opinion. But, just because someone says 'that's one cool drawing' just don't rip that person to shreds because of what they just posted, they might be sincere!

Maryssa
01-06-2003, 07:50 PM
But if you read that part of my post you would have seen I suggested at least trying to make an effort to write something more.

WHY do you think it is cute? What do you like most about it? Is the detail nice? Does it have a great composition? Does the shading totally blow your mind?

Kaneda: please reread the 3rd to last paragraph.

Spooky Brew
01-06-2003, 08:00 PM
For me, cuteness is something that speaks to me. Sometimes, it dosen't really take much at all to speak to you. Mostly, I love things that have the out of bound details, such as everything that character could possible have is shown and the drawings usually have wonderful shading, or maybe just a tint od colour, I'm not really very complex when it comes to art, I really just like what I like. I like things especially when it reminds me of what I like to draw or how thier drawings have the same aspect of mine. It's usually all about person taste.

KANEDA
01-06-2003, 08:01 PM
hmm O.K I read it....
and?

I'm not just talking about having the abillity to crtique things intelligently. I mean.. most of these people's minds aren't opened to the universe of art.. and philosophys of it....
It's not like that is causing a problem so much.. as it just makes it less exciting...

Maryssa
01-06-2003, 08:06 PM
well i'd hope as costume creators, the people in this forum would have somewhat of an appreciation for any kind of art. As i said, its just a matter of looking at the picture and telling us or the artist what they like or dont like about it.

KANEDA
01-06-2003, 08:08 PM
yeah, totally.

Spooky Brew
01-06-2003, 08:10 PM
I appreciate art, but everyone has the forms that they do and do not like. Some may say that the Mona Lisa is one of the best paintings in the world, I say it sucked! When I actually saw it in person, there was nothing that really sparked me as 'OH God, it is the greatest painting in the world!' but again it's all about perspective and personal opinion. When you look at something such as a building, ask another person what they see, and everytime you do, most all the people will say something different about it because of they wa they see it, it's their perspective. All I'm saying is don't knock other people's opinions because that's what they see as a person with thier own perspective.

diqitaldreams
01-06-2003, 08:12 PM
Aah...art is something that's very entertaining and yet, criticism is harsh sometimes -- but needed! I always look for people to criticize my work because I want to get better so I don't believe that people would tell me that it's cute and I'd just stand for it... I usually need an explination!

Maryssa! I agree with you totally and I think that people on the board should be less on the offense! I've noticed that lots of people get on the edge for no reason -- but voice your opinion when it's needed! Mmhmm! ^_^

Yuna
01-06-2003, 08:51 PM
Originally posted by KANEDA
hmm O.K I read it....
and?

I'm not just talking about having the abillity to crtique things intelligently. I mean.. most of these people's minds aren't opened to the universe of art.. and philosophys of it....
It's not like that is causing a problem so much.. as it just makes it less exciting...

OMG, I need a degree in Art history and such to have an opinion now?

sailor-moon
01-06-2003, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by Maryssa


Yep. I see next to no criticism. Criticism is how we artists HELP each other.

yesh! :bigtu: i put some of my stuff up here that i think is worth peoples time, and i like the critisism, its helps A LOT ^.^ ...maryssa!!!!!>< your helping me with drawing wings this weekend!^.^ :razz:

Alisa
01-06-2003, 09:54 PM
I also agree with Maryssa. :crylaugh: I am guilty of the short comments, but I did that for I saw other people do it. I now know better. This is a great forum and a great tool for improving artists. I had posted a picture that I am currently working on and I was so happy when Maryssa replied to it. Not only was she the first and only so far, but she actually commented, to help me better finish the picture. I had posted "comments appreciated" after it, but I guess people were scared of it. I don't care of people nit-picking, that is the point. *goes off to work on some drawings*

Tenshi
01-06-2003, 11:55 PM
I don't post much in this forum (because I'm too lazy to scan and such XD) but I greatly prefer constructive criticism to "omg that's so coooooool!" I want to become a better artist, so give it to me like it is! Err. . .if I ever post anything, that is :P.

Coffin
01-07-2003, 12:14 AM
i noticed that most people are either assertive,aggressive, or just plain assholes. why? i dont know but for whatever the reasons, ever comment is the same. i too also noticed that people get pissed when u do tell them something of a constructive note. i thing you must understand is that to expect critics to be in your face;

you cant be a graphic artist and your client says,"what the hell is this? if i wanted crap ill look in a toilet" (dramatization)

you cant be like," well screw you man!*<sob sob!>*


what im trying to say is that if someone says something that u dont want to hear, dont snap, walk w/ pride, because you know how much effort you put into your work.

and assholes(you know who you are), stop being assholes.
one day you'll be an asshole to the wrong person, therefore being shot in the face(rotten.com).

'nuff said, out.

videogirlc
01-07-2003, 12:24 AM
I so agree with Maryssa. Main reason I don't put my opinions in most of this forum is because of the fact that I can critic a piece to death, can give suggstions but I'm afraid that the person will take it the wrong way. I can even critic my own stuff up to the point where I think it sucks. Also some of the artists here just do it for a hobby I don't want to discourage a great hobby as art.

KANEDA
01-07-2003, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Yuna
OMG, I need a degree in Art history and such to have an opinion now?

no... and I didn't say that. ^_~;``
I wasn't saying that at-fuckin-all.
Just that opinions ...are kinda better when they're educated opinions...
like a hillbilly probably can't critique victorian literature or classical music very well... IF they really dunno the field.

of course they'll have an opinion.. but one should have as much info and knowledge as possible before really picking stuff apart too much.

Miyu
01-07-2003, 12:37 AM
and the art god speaketh! XD lol

KANEDA
01-07-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Coffin
i noticed that most people are either assertive,aggressive, or just plain assholes. why? i dont know but for whatever the reasons, ever comment is the same. i too also noticed that people get pissed when u do tell them something of a constructive note. i thing you must understand is that to expect critics to be in your face;

you cant be a graphic artist and your client says,"what the hell is this? if i wanted crap ill look in a toilet" (dramatization)

you cant be like," well screw you man!*<sob sob!>*


what im trying to say is that if someone says something that u dont want to hear, dont snap, walk w/ pride, because you know how much effort you put into your work.

and assholes(you know who you are), stop being assholes.
one day you'll be an asshole to the wrong person, therefore being shot in the face(rotten.com).

'nuff said, out.



also though,... there is a difference between a graphic artist.. and a fine artist. a graphic artist is basically selling his skill. NOT his essence...
I mean, he is payed commercially.

Yuna
01-07-2003, 02:11 AM
so those of us who have no educated background on art shouldn't really voice their constructive critisisim? I'm just trying to understand the point here.

Miyu
01-07-2003, 02:19 AM
Nessa, we are not worthy. *LE SIGH* ;_;

Yuna
01-07-2003, 02:43 AM
just cause I'm stoooooopid... ._.

Evinrude
01-07-2003, 04:19 AM
so those of us who have no educated background on art shouldn't really voice their constructive critisisim?

Hmm...I can't read his mind, but I don't think that's what he's saying. However, having a background in art and art history can give you an understanding of the techniques used, historical background, methods of improvement, and, if the piece warrents it, a socio-political background in which to judge it.

<edit to add>
Think of it this way. Which of the following critiques would be more useful:

1. "Dude, that's cool!"

2. "I like this, but you could do more with the body, it seems to be lacking in depth."

3. "I like this. The body is lacking depth however. Perhaps, you could use more shadowing. You might want to look into some pieces done by <insert artist name here>. Your pencil sketching might benefit from <insert technique here>."
</edit>

That said, my only background in art comes from an artist sister, and my own dabblings, which is why you won't see me criticizing much art here. I will admire it though. :)

Miroku
01-07-2003, 04:23 AM
Maryssa I kinda agree with what you are saying. Ive only posted a couple of pieces on this board, and encouraged people to critique my work, but there is a problem. If you have talent, people dont want to critique you becasue they are either 1.) Jealous of your work, or 2.) Dont think you need it.

For example: Imagine if Picasso showed up in the Member Artwork section and said "Hey look at my cool new pic!" Of course it would be fantastic, especially compared to the pics of those who have no formal art training. But people would more than likely ignore him becasue why would this guy who can create these incredible paintings need help.

Now Im not saying Im Picasso, nor am I saying Im a great artist, or beyond criticism, but I am a decent artist considering I dont know that much about art, or the Manga/Anime style.

Ive seen this same thing happen to friends of mine. They post artwork(on a different board) and its good, and it goes virtually ignored. People would rather revel in someone elses work, who is not as good. I had another friend who entered a piece of his in an art contest, and his piece was far superior to the piece that won. He got cheated out of his award cause people didint like the fact that he had talent and they didnt. Its why you have so many fanboys in this world who can only critisize others works. They have no real creative prowess, and therefore must tear down everyone elses work.

Now, Im not sure if anyone has accused you of being like that, but I would assume so considering this post. But that is more than likely what people assume you are doing, just tearing down. I can tell by reading your comments in other posts that you are just lending them a hand, but that is usually not the way it seems when you read it cause well, hey, a bunch of typed words cannot convey emotion as well as the human voice can.

Most of the people here are nice enough to give positive feedback to whoever is posting, whether the artwork that is posted is good or not. Personally, I think that I would have a hard time telling someone to change their drawing, that they think is good. Mainly because I remember the days when I was no where as good as I am now, and how long it took me to complete a drawing just to have someone look at my efforts and give me an unimpressed shoulder shrug. That can hit you right in the heart. I still get that today. I think the best thing for an aspiring artist is to get praise for their effort, because you know they worked hard to achieve it, but at the same time a constructive critique of their work. You want their effort to pay off for them, becasue you can see in them the soul of someone who truely cares for their art.

I had an art teacher like that in high school. She was a very nice lady, and she was critical in a very supportive way. She wanted you to do well, and would sit down beside you and show you how to improve your drawing.

I guess what Im saying is that we all should strive to achieve that goal here. All of us artists should stay true to the best within ourselves, so that we can stay true to each other.

Maybe we should start having our own drawing contests. We could also have tutorials from the more experienced artists, and maybe some art exercises, or something. Im sure that every artist here has something to contribute, whether they have been drawing for two days, or ten years. We can give it a try if you guys want. I'll leave it to you.

Im done

Miroku-

Evinrude
01-07-2003, 04:29 AM
Maybe we should start having our own drawing contests.
Heh, I'm far from artistically inclined, and I still think that sounds like fun. :D

Bobbi
01-07-2003, 04:54 AM
I've been taking art classes in college for about 3 years now, and I totally agree with what you're saying Maryssa. It's not criticism, doesn't have to be harsh at all. I donno how many of you are art majors, but one thing we do in college art classes is after a project is over, we all sit around infront of a board, and everyone puts their project up and we critique it. Everyone has a chance to say something about his or her own peice, then the teacher and other students say what they like and what could be improved. It's not criticism like, "I don't like the program you used" or "I hate that angle, you should've picked another one". It's constructive criticism, where you say "I think your peice could be improved by adding a bit more shadow and highlight", or something like that.

Most people who don't have any experience in art will make comments like "oh that's cute!" or "wow, I can never do something like that, that's so awesome!" Yeah maybe they can write a bit more, but without a whole lot of experience it is kind of hard to critique somoene's work. You know what I'm saying?

It's not that everyone here nessicairly needs to take art theory or art history classes. I still have to take those. XP Gotta take them next fall. Heh, should've done that my first semester. We don't need to critique anime art from the perspecitve of piccasso or something, but yah... hehe. :)

Kataiya
02-02-2003, 10:39 AM
Thank god for this thread. I totally agree with most of ya. Thats what I try to do. Dont be harsh, cuz that will only cause anger. This is what we do, it goes back to the 5th grade speech class thingy. First praise, what they did right and what they should keep doing, not like "THATS COOL" but more "I liked this because the colors are vibrant" or "There's so much emotional appeal to this picture..." . Encourage them to do what they're doing right in the future, cuz if they dunno what they ARE doing right (maybe due to a fluke) its good to let them know. I know that helped me alot. Next, criticism. Tell them what they did wrong (if at all) and try not to be harsh like "Oh it sucks" be like "However, the arm looks stiff" or "the hand looks a bit animalistic" and, the most crucial point, tell them how to IMPROVE. If you just cut them down, they just go away hurt and with no idea of how to improve it. For example "The background is a bit too harsh and takes away from the actual picture. What I suggest to do is to soften it, maybe using some white (or such) so it doesnt take away from the figure".

I try to do that, and if you see my posts at the end saying "not saying I can do better", is so I wont get angry threats saying "Like you can do better?!" No, Im not saying I can, but I know how professionals do it and to get yours more professional looking you do this or that. I hate it when people accuse me of being a snot just because I offer some constructive critisism. Most of us our trying to help you, not looking to put you down, so dont take it so offensively and actually consider what we have to say.

Also, I think an art background helps in critiquing art, but you dun necessarily need one. For example, your going shopping and see a shirt you like but wont buy due to some pattern or something on it. You go, I like this shirt because its soft or the color, but the design really turns me off. Perhaps if they took it off or offered a new design Id buy it. Thats basically what art critiquers (that word?) do, cept using words like "Color" and "Contrast" and "Composition".

One more thing (god, my post is too long x.x) I hate it when people say "GOD IT SUCKS CUZ ITS ANIME" . Just because you dislike the style, doesnt mean its a bad piece of artwork. If the style does not appeal to you, but the artwork is actually well crafted, just leave it be. My friend in AP Art 2, constantly draws horse. Her horses are beautiful, well rendered and detailed. However, her former teacher was like "I dislike this one" because the lady did not like horses, and gave her Cs. If you are going to critique, PLEASE have an open mind, and accept other styles of art. Many people do not like Picasso, his art is too abstract for them, but you have to admit the man is talented and portrays emotion very well in his pieces.

Thats all, sorry for the long post x.x

StereoLab
02-03-2003, 03:53 AM
i think the problem with "anime style" fanart on this forum is that there's really not a lot to critque, except for certain techinical things. it really just comes down to whether the characters look enough like the original or if (you're going for a different style) the character is proportioned. i think its safe to say most fanarts have no deeper meaning or message (of course the artists will have to tell me if im wrong on this one), hence you can't have a long interesting debate over it.

don't get me wrong, im not saying an artwork has to convey some kind of emotion and that fanart art is not art, in fact i have a lot of manga/anime style artworks in my gallery. its just that, for me personally, there are a lot of times when there's really not much to say about a picture of sailormoon.

or...maybe im just bitter because im no good at working with pen and pencil

Morbius
02-06-2003, 01:42 PM
I agree with Miroku 110%. I used to post here a lot but when Maryssa came along I got a cold shoulder from her to the effect that "hey I'm going to an art school and I know much more then anyone here". I have nothing against her. It just came off that way. She might be the nicest person in the world; unfortunately text has a hard time conveying emotion. So I don't pass judgment just impressions.

I don't think I'm a great artist at all. Even with the fact that I've been drawing my whole life, I've taken a few art classes and I've been a professional commercial artist for 9 years working with the likes of Nike, AAA, etc. etc. I don't give criticism for the reason that I don't feel I know what they are shooting for. What level they are at and how dedicated they are. Some just want so show a picture off and that's all. If they ask for a critique then give it. But do tone it down a bit. Be detailed but be kind. Egos are very fragile. If you really truly want to help them then I think you will know how to say it nicely. If you have been ripped apart yourself then you should realize how it feels.

Many people on these boards are young or are just starting out or do this just for fun. Then there are those that are very serious about what they are doing, either for money or whatever. This creates a clash of interests. I agree with Maryssa that helping out those that do this for money etc. is a good thing. That is why I post here sometimes.

But the reality is this is usually an ego trip for some people and there are those that will rip apart something just to feel better about themselves and that is the wrong motive to critique anyone. I don't feel the need to do that. I think everyone is good at his or her own level and everyone is at a different level. SO you should adjust your critique accordingly. Which is hard to do generally.

I have nothing again critiques. But I don't think there should be this automatic assumption that everyone posting here is looking for a "real" detailed critique. On other art forums I have seen a standard started where people will place "Critique: Here's my pix of..." or something in the heading of their post. That way people know right away this person is looking for feedback to improve. Feelings are hurt less that way and people enjoy the forum more. Just my feedback. Hold back the ego and be kind. We can all get along.

Good idea to get this in the open Maryssa. :)

KitsuNessa
02-06-2003, 02:52 PM
eh, my gripe is that ppl only seem to post on stuff that belongs to someone they know...

it'd be a lot better and more constructive if it were more anonymous...