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shiroi_yukiko
01-11-2003, 02:38 AM
Well, my friend and I were talking about Dir en grey cosplay and what we'd like to do in the future. And then we got to wondering, would people be offended if someone wore one of Die's "Nazi" outfits? The Nazi armband is there, loud and clear after all. Anyone have an opinions on this?

Recca-kun
01-11-2003, 05:33 AM
I've heard this conversation before on some MLs, and although some people may not be offended by it there are guaranteed to be some that will be and it could cause trouble...

Is there any way you could alter it so it wouldn't be as blatant?

moo
01-11-2003, 06:24 AM
I refer you to http://pub130.ezboard.com/fanimeexpofrm14.showMessage?topicID=680.topic

In summary, it's a very bad idea as there are people out there who will mistake your intentions and do something not conducive to your well-being.

DancingVampire
01-11-2003, 08:10 AM
I would'nt but Im sure some poeple would people who dont go to cons but are in the area where it occurs always seem to need something to rag on us for maybe you could replace the design on dies red armband with a ramen symbol or something like japans flag or even america's? it might save some nasty comments from non-otaku they really dont understand were as most otaku are open minded (come on we watch yaoi and listen to visual Kei) and wouldnt mind I hope this helped a bit ^_^

Koumori
01-11-2003, 08:52 AM
I find it offensive when he wears it (which I'm sure is his intention), so I'd prefer not to see it cosplayed. I have also seen it worn with different armbands, which is ... well, it's *better*, but the outfit is still very deliberately reminiscent of Nazi uniforms in specific, and you don't need a big swastika on the arm to see that.

I think as time goes on, sometimes people tend to forget or not be aware of the impact of Nazism, or why wearing Nazi insignia is not even remotely a matter of "open mindedness" on the same level as watching yaoi or listening to visual kei. Whether or not you mean it as a personal statement, it's symbolic of something deeply evil, deeply wrong and deeply divisive, and something about which many, MANY people have VERY strong feelings. I don't feel it's something that should be lightly incorporated into fashion. Any fashion. So I would prefer not to see it anywhere, and I doubt I'm the only one who might see you who has strong feelings about this.

shiroi_yukiko
01-11-2003, 11:25 AM
Yay! Thanks everyone. I was already 100% for just changing the thing on the armband to make it less... Nazi-ish. Well, a lot less. Probably put something rediculous there instead. I know it would bother me to see it, especially in respect to other people's feelings. And the last thing I would want beyond that is for my friend to get in trouble (it's for her... it just happens that the outift I wanted coincides with one of Die's).

The outfit itself is one of the less Nazi reminiscent ones, if you take away the armband (yes, he had more than one **; ), so it should be okay after we make the necessary changes.

Koumori
01-11-2003, 01:23 PM
Sounds good.

Cyber Wolf
01-11-2003, 04:03 PM
Actually, I've heard that symbol has a different meaning in Japan. I'm not sure what that is exactly, just heard that it does.

Sakura
01-11-2003, 04:36 PM
I wouldn't be offended at all. The past is the past. Every race has been discriminated against before so I don't see a point in people being so evil toward Nazis. There have been hateful acts toward Jews, African-Americans, Irish, Spanish- and so many more. I'm not Jewish and I understand that many people hate Hitler even now, but I'm part Polish and you don't see me spazing because Hitler murdered the Poles (although I'm mostly Italian and they were doing some killing at the time as well...) Even if you WEREN'T cosplaying Die and had a little swastika people shouldn't spaz because everyone has different beliefs. If only people could just respect the beliefs of others, then we wouldn't have so many problems in the world.

All in all- I would say "go for it" normally, but you'd have to be prepared for the reactions of some people who wouldn't understand WHY you're wearing it. There are a lot of people at anime cons who have no idea who Die is, let alone his outfits so you could definately run into some trouble. I guess it's decent of you to change the swastika to something else.

Blah ^.^;; I'm done now. Let's be happy, people.

Koumori
01-11-2003, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Sakura
If only people could just respect the beliefs of others, then we wouldn't have so many problems in the world.


Sorry. But I do not respect the beliefs of Nazis - and the fact that they sure didn't respect the beliefs of others had a lot to do with World War 2. The past is NOT "just the past." There are plenty of people out there today who share those beliefs right now and would love to see them put into action again. The past - history - is not a dead thing; it's something that informs and creates the present.

The swastika symbol is one that appears in ancient art and folklore from all over the world, often for good luck. Unfortunately, its use by the Nazis has given it a very specific association with that group and its ideals, and claiming that you are wearing a militaristic uniform with a folkloric good-luck symbol probably will not fly.

Yui
01-13-2003, 05:58 PM
Well, I think it makes more sense in Japan, because remember which side Japan was on...
So, yes, the symbol itself originated as a secret symbol of early Christians to put on their graves back in the days when they were persecuted and had to hide their religion. So it started out okay. Of course, it came to be associated with a new extreme connotation, and we know some people will still feel uncomfortable, so there is no reason to scare them away from j-rock all together when they have a predisposed opinion on a detail. To some people, it's just another part of the costume, but to others it will be offensive. So yes, I think this is one of those instances you can gloss over the details...because anyone who already is a Die fan will know why you did it and know what it's supposed to be, and you won't run the risk of inciting any violence from those who don't understand. (Tho, I do think it'd be cool to stick a random funny thing on the armband instead.)

officer_fujita
01-13-2003, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by Cyber Wolf
Actually, I've heard that symbol has a different meaning in Japan. I'm not sure what that is exactly, just heard that it does.

In many Asian countries, a reversed swastika is a symbol of many good things (luck, long life, prosperity, etc.), so it's pretty common in many places like temples. It's been used long before Hitler came into being.

Maybe Hitler knew about this so he reversed it? Mou... I don't really know. :confused:

Many people are not aware of this, and they tend to associate it with fascism and the nazi regime.

bANgZ
01-14-2003, 05:27 PM
HMM i would like to wear one of those uniforms, if you know where i can get one let me know k thanks

Koumori
01-14-2003, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by officer_fujita

Many people are not aware of this, and they tend to associate it with fascism and the nazi regime.

Yes. Because, like the language of words, the language of symbols changes. If you wear a big swastika, reversed or not, people WILL associate you with Nazis. Just don't.

soshi
01-14-2003, 08:41 PM
I agree with Koumori. even in Japan, seeing the swastika is offensive. seeing it ANYWHERE is offensive. while it may not be as much of a shocker in Japan because they're not properly educated on why that war went on, it's still Not A Good Symbol.

the swastika is also no longer used as a religous symbol in most areas that previously used it.

I suggest wearing one of the traditional Dir en grey "logo" arm bands that they wear when they don't feel like wearing their costumes.

die-sama
01-16-2003, 05:28 PM
i have planned that costume but instead of a swastika why not a red badge w/ something clever on it? like "Dir en grey" lol
even a red smiley face might work
I'm not offended by it
I'm rarely offendedby anything
the Swastika originally was a religious symbol, but in die's case i'm sure he's not showing off his "Buddhism"
So i'd suggest for your own good,, dont wear the Swastika badge
i've seen other ppl cosplay w/ different badges,,,then again i've seen ppl use the actual badge, but for the sake that this is the U.S. not everyone is as "unoffended" as people like me o,o;;

Rosiel
01-16-2003, 06:38 PM
> i have planned that costume but instead of a swastika why not a red badge w/ something clever on it? like "Dir en grey" lol

I would dispense of the armband alltogether. I encountered problems with convention attendees over my Angel Sanctuary Atziluth costume (at Anime Expo) and it's a military costume of a common design, with an armband adorned with an angel.

My advice is then 1) Axe the armband and 2) Do not wear this costume outside of the convention.

> i've seen ppl use the actual badge

As for this... do not do this unless you're willing to morgage your future because of cosplay. Once you wear such a thing in public, it means you endorsed the ideology, it means you're branded. This is /seriously/ something that you could lose a job over and is even illegal in some countries.

Koumori
01-16-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by Rosiel
This is /seriously/ something that you could lose a job over and is even illegal in some countries.

Clearly I am not the only one who feels strongly that there is NOTHING inoffensive about Nazism.

Rosiel, I would suggest that the AS military designs do indeed visually hearken back to Nazi uniforms, and I would suspect intentionally so. I don't have a problem with drawing design elements from them in that way, but to take something (like the armband that started all of this) that screams "HI! NAZIS-R-US!" is breathtakingly offensive to me. And I'm a little horrified that more people on this board seem to think it's A-OK as long as you don't mean it.

You can argue about swastikas as religious or folkloric symbols until you're blue in the face, but the reality is that that symbol is now the symbol of Hitler's Germany. That is the language that it currently carries. Don't wear it. Just don't.

They DO still teach world history in school, don't they?

die-sama
01-16-2003, 07:57 PM
>As for this... I would not do it unless you're willing to morgage your future because of cosplay. Once you wear such a thing in public, you're branded. This is /seriously/ something that you could lose a job over and is even illegal in some countries.

In that type of circumstance I say not to have the badge.....The costume in itself is already an uniform >_<

as in the people who acutally wore the badge , they were some cosplayers i used to know in japan who went - quite - far in all their costumes o,o, i must hand it to them that they were indeed good craftsmen

whatever the case good luck ^^b

die-sama
01-16-2003, 08:07 PM
>>You can argue about swastikas as religious or folkloric symbols until you're blue in the face, but the reality is that that symbol is now the symbol of Hitler's Germany. That is the language that it currently carries. Just don't wear it. Just don't.

Personally, I am very anti-nazi, i'm not racist nor do i believe in any type of Arian nation or SUpreme Race
BUT because of Hitler and Nazi Germany, a good symbol was indeed turned back
IT IS a pity that such a symbol was turned into an evil omen representing hate/prejudice/death/etc and etc
In a personal case scenario, my father is a buddhist, we do indeed have the buddhist -wheel- (swastika turned straight)
and sometimes when guests come to our house we do indeed get called nazis, i blame the lack of education. Its not just folklore, Hermes and buddha both used the symbol and they date back too many thousands of years
But because the symbol is used in representation of a costume used to symbolize hate and nazi I dont really truely believe its a good idea, but sadly WWII did happen, people did die, its a pity to bring all that back -but- i dont think its A -OK but plainly if you need a armband use SOMETHING else
In the case of Dir en grey, Macabre tour had the "deadly claris MACABRE 00-01" armband, and also the Japanese Zombie, and then the regular "Dir en grey" .
From your Icon i can tell that you are a Dir en grey fan, and most of -those- badges were worn by toshiya himself

arg i've lost my train of thought >_<;;;
Maybe what i'm trying to say is,,, i dont support wearing the badge on a daily basis and flaunting the fact ur cosplaying someone who idiotically used the nazi symbol has a costume accessory
BUT he did it,, and well its part of the costume,, x_x and some can argue it -makes- the costume, so if ur gonna use a badge use something else, if not, dont cosplay the /nazi-like/ costume at all o_o;

arg *goes stick head in a oven*

Koumori
01-16-2003, 08:40 PM
Originally posted by die-chan

In a personal case scenario, my father is a buddhist, we do indeed have the buddhist -wheel- (swastika turned straight)
and sometimes when guests come to our house we do indeed get called nazis, i blame the lack of education. Its not just folklore, Hermes and buddha both used the symbol and they date back too many thousands of years

I'm sorry that you've experienced misunderstanding of your use of the symbol. And you're correct that it's a question of people not knowing the entire history of it. My objection to it is based on the fact that it *has* been hijacked by the Nazi movement, and to the vast majority of people you're likely to encounter at a con or on the way to one, it's a Nazi symbol plain and simple.

From your Icon i can tell that you are a Dir en grey fan, and most of -those- badges were worn by toshiya himself

Sure. But I wouldn't wear them, and I don't like it that they wear them. (I'm actually not particularly a fan of Dir en Grey.) And I found Die's swastika armband as offensive as I'm sure he hoped I would. ;)

I'm sorry if I sound hysterical about this, but history and the meaning of history are things I have strong feelings about, and I get panicky when I start thinking people are forgetting or ignoring the past.

MargauxZ
01-16-2003, 09:11 PM
Yes. I'd kick "the cosplayer's" ass in public if I saw that.

I'm fucking serious.

die-sama
01-16-2003, 09:55 PM
so in conclusion i suppose most ppl agree " yes we woudl find it offensive?" o,o
so i suggest maybe not to cosplay w/ a armband or just not to cosplay it ~_~;

Rosiel
01-16-2003, 10:24 PM
> Rosiel, I would suggest that the AS military designs do indeed visually hearken back to Nazi uniforms, and I would suspect intentionally so.

In all fairness, it could be Nazi, it could be Italy under Mussolini, it could be Red Army... and a hundred other uniforms in history. Basically I think the point was to underscore the fact that the angels had become corrupted by using a uniform that reminded of totalitarian militaristic regimes.

That's what saved it for me. Had it pointed more closely to a particular regime I would have never worn it as it would have meant endorsing their ideals. I come from a country where it's illegal to possess WW2 memorabilia... so I think it's engrained in me. ^__^

And that's the main point... if it's a replica of something that existed... then to everyone who sees you, you are endorsing the history behind it.

Koumori
01-16-2003, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Rosiel

That's what saved it for me. Had it pointed more closely to a particular regime I would have never worn it as it would have meant endorsing their ideals. I come from a country where it's illegal to possess WW2 memorabilia... so I think it's engrained in me. ^__^


That's legitimate, sure. I know you always put a lot of thought into your cosplay choices, and your reasoning makes sense. I wasn't aware it was illegal to own WW2 memorabilia in France, though - in a way, that seems a little strange to me, too.. as if not having tangible reminders would make it easier to forget.

Rosiel
01-16-2003, 11:41 PM
And we veer off-topic!

> in a way, that seems a little strange to me, too.. as if not having tangible reminders would make it easier to forget.

Hmm... you have an interesting point here. I think the idea is more along the lines of the fact that these things are imbued with the aura, the ideals, of those who made them and used them. And that by "collecting" them, it would only bring the collectors closer to those times and those ideals we fought so hard to eradicate.

I'd have to think more about it to give you a meaty answer as the one above is really unsatisfying.

Koumori
01-17-2003, 07:37 AM
Originally posted by Rosiel
And we veer off-topic!

Heh. Yeah, sorry about that.

Hmm... you have an interesting point here. I think the idea is more along the lines of the fact that these things are imbued with the aura, the ideals, of those who made them and used them. And that by "collecting" them, it would only bring the collectors closer to those times and those ideals we fought so hard to eradicate.


Well, I certainly understand the impulse to try to make it all go away. Certainly it was a horrible time for France, and I can see why you would have the instinct to want to put it behind you, and make it difficult for someone to profit off the remains of the war in general and the Vichy occupation in particular. I just wonder how big the underground market must be. This is one I can see from a number of angles.

Chosuke
01-17-2003, 08:11 AM
In my honest opinion I will go totally with Rosiel and Koumori about the arm band thing.
Not only would it be alarming to other cosplayers and congoers who may not recognize it as J-rock costume,Imagine the parents or guardians of those bringing children to conventions.

I don't think my guardian would ever EVER let me go to another con if he saw a group of people bearing what looked to be a wartime insignia and in full uniform.

I've noticed though lately that it -is- quite common to see various Manga/Anime characters in nazi apparel.
Like in my newest Fushigi Yugi graphic novel I bought Nakago was drawn as a Nazi general,riding crop and cap included.

Though I am quite sure that Yuu Watase was only experimenting with styles.

John Booty
01-17-2003, 08:14 AM
I agree with what Koumori, Chobrat, and Rosiel have said.

I'm just chiming as one more voice saying, "don't do it!"

Side note: The Nazis definitely had the coolest-looking uniforms, insignias, and such. I sort of kick myself everytime I notice this, though, considering the sheer triviality of their uniforms next to their horrible deeds.

Koumori
01-17-2003, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Chobrat

Like in my newest Fushigi Yugi graphic novel I bought Nakago was drawn as a Nazi general,riding crop and cap included.

Though I am quite sure that Yuu Watase was only experimenting with styles.

Nnnnnooooo, I'd say she was trying to tell us something about that character.

JB, unfortunately they ARE good-looking, flattering uniforms. Which is part of the problem, and the reason they keep getting resurrected in various fashion incarnations. If they were practical, yet ugly, as most of the other nations' WW2 uniforms were, we'd never see them again. I hope.

Kitanyo
01-17-2003, 02:33 PM
The symbol used represents the sun I believe. The only thing is, the nazi's reversed it to represent power... Something like that anyway. If I saw it, I wouldn't be offended, but I'd be worried for the life of the person wearing it ;.;

As for the costume -- it's up to you to do what you want. There was one guy I saw a picture of who dressed up as a nazi. No J-rock theme or anything. He cosplayed as a nazi, complete with swastika arm band. @_@ Perhaps for moral reasons it would be wise to use something that "looks" like it, but doesn't mean the same thing.

Remember, the swastika is a paradox, like the figure eight design. ^.~

Kitanyo
01-17-2003, 02:42 PM
Ah, pardon the double post --

Rosiel, it is illegal to own WW2 "stuff"? Interesting! In Canada, it's legal to have it, but if you wander outside with say... A Canadian Airborne beret and capbrass on, somebody walking by who happens to be in the airborne won't be removing just your beret, they'll probably remove your entire head with it. ;.;

Koumori -- Simmer down, girl. ^_^; *hugs*

Koumori
01-17-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Kitanyo

Koumori -- Simmer down, girl. ^_^; *hugs*

No. Nazis bad. Bad, bad, bad. *sulk* ;)

Thanks for the hug, though. Clearly I needed it. :)

MargauxZ
01-17-2003, 03:42 PM
Thank you Koumori for saying like, everything I woul have said.

die-sama
01-17-2003, 05:26 PM
>>The symbol used represents the sun I believe. The only thing is, the nazi's reversed it to represent power... Something like that anyway. If I saw it, I wouldn't be offended, but I'd be worried for the life of the person wearing it ;.; <<

In other cases i would have probably drawn out the design (but here i might be shot). anyways the Swastika is the Tilted symbol of the Buddhist "wan zi"(chinese) or "manji" (japanese) symbol of power/domination/ but in a sense of celestial GOOD...
Hermes Messenger God of Greece/ Mercury messengrey god of Rome (same). has the "swastika" on the back of his throne, like Bacchus with his grapes and whine and tigers and such.
From what i remember, herme's symbol the wheel spins clockwise, while buddha's spins counterclockwise
Nazi germany did indeed use the "swastika" or "spider" on purpose X_X to represent their power and "greatness"
It was a evil thing to do
there are a lot of symbols that has have their symbols messed up
the whole thing w/ the symbol is controversal
like the upside down crusifix = antichrist
Though those aren't really that badly disliked since there are atheists >_< blarg

Chobrat >> I agree w/ your argument based on the fact that its a convention and well people might have heart attacks...
But I also like to sort of bring up that in the case of ANIME characters, some of them are purposly made to look that way<
nazi japan is//apart of Japan's history (though i've heard they dont really teach it anymore (??))) and the character is supposed to look -evil- -bad- and -discriminating-

and if we were really to get into the whole "military governmental history" (excuse me for saying this) cr*p (veering a little off subject i suppose), there are many countries who did much bad deeds to others.
China would probably hate Mongolia, france, germany, japan (espcially), USA. (dont know if anyone knows about the time of the "six big countries" time when villages were pillaged and women were raped by european countries and japan) and of course people probably knew about teh nanjing invasion when Japan came, burned down houses and put people on stakes?
(heck my grandma can't stand to look at a japanese person to this day >_<)
And USA would still probably hate the "red" countries, and if it wasn't for the whole "teach the US to hate Germany" back in WWI, the new KKK (W.A.S.P.s) probably wouldn't be here >_<
I blieve bringing up the past in reminder to what -had- happened is a good thing...but maybe just DONT bring it to a Anime convention that s"family friendly" ^^

I hope its not illegal to have pocession of WWII things..i know people w/ badges from -back then- of both sides...some ppl just collect things ^^:;; (or is it all underground?)

>>As for the costume -- it's up to you to do what you want. There was one guy I saw a picture of who dressed up as a nazi. No J-rock theme or anything. He cosplayed as a nazi, complete with swastika arm band.

Ok see..now thats different. THAT guy needs a good kick somewhere in the south pole X_X


>>@_@ Perhaps for moral reasons it would be wise to use something that "looks" like it, but doesn't mean the same thing.

I think this whole discussion has been about "morals" >_< that i think people just think if someone were to be 100% "morally" right, then just -dont- wear the costume. at all. o,o i think

*falls over exhausted*
*waves a little white flag* hehe

Psychotic Jei
01-17-2003, 08:47 PM
History note about the two symbols. First, the one that was mainly used in Japan was the sauvastika. Which is the symbol that the arms move counter clockwise. And tis a symbol of health and welfare. The one that was corrupted was generally considered a solar system. Two seperate symbols.

There's a manga called Blade of the Immortal. The main character wheres a huge sauvastika on his back. I thought it was very good of the people who published it to explain the meanings.

It's all a matter of respect and consideration. ^____^;

And another note I thought Rosiel's costume was very nice. Of course, I'm a huge fan of Angel Sanctuary and knew what it was about.

die-sama
01-17-2003, 10:44 PM
>>History note about the two symbols. First, the one that was mainly used in Japan was the sauvastika.<<

o_o i never knew there was any original japanese words such as "Sauvastika"

bascially the way i see it.. because of nazi regime, whether it be "sauvastika" or buddhist or hermes or whatever. it was corrupted

heck if we wanna really talk about corruption, some can argue harry potter is a nazi *stares at the gay who said Tinky Winky was gay* X_X;; sure two of his scars . turn it sideways and you got ureslf a swastika *falls over*

oiiii >_<;;

moo
01-17-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by die-chan
*stares at the gay who said Tinky Winky was gay* X_X;;

FYI, the idjit who said Tinkywinky was gay was Jerry Falwell. What this has to do with the topic at hand, I don't know.

Psychotic Jei
01-18-2003, 12:08 AM
Thats not the Japanese term. The term is Manji. But..yeh...what I was saying, is that they didnt change the symbol...they just took the one with the solar meaning and corrupted it ^^

MargauxZ
01-18-2003, 02:35 AM
Yeah. So just don't wear an armband with the swastika on it.

RoMayDrako
01-18-2003, 03:38 AM
I know I shouldn't be sticken my nose in this but ain't wearing a sauvastika now day in age like wearing a big beat the sh!t out of me sign on yourself. Or at least it is here. Cause things have changed from Hitlers day, and those damn b@stards found more people to discriminate then Hitler did. Sorry dug my head to much into sociology and not I'll shut my mouth.

RoMayDrako

Kitanyo
01-18-2003, 10:12 AM
To address the WW2/WW1 posessions stuff -- don't worry. As far as I know, in the US you can pick up these sorts of things at your local army surplus store. Mind you, if you dare to wear a beret with a regimental cap brass/cap badge (we use cap brasses :P) that somebody who happens to be from that regiment will simply walk up to you and remove your beret -- with your head along with it. ^^;

Surplus stores -TECHNICALLY- aren't legal, since it's the reselling of government property, however, after WW2/WW1 they had a bunch of outdated uniforms that they needed to get rid of some how since every now and then they are "new and improving" everything and re-issuing stuff, so there is no point in keeping old stock on hand. Kind of like a clearance sale, I guess. *^.^*


Koumori -- No problemo, chicka. =)

die-sama
01-18-2003, 10:09 PM
sadly not everywhere is wearing a German -nazi- uniform a sign to say "beat the sh*t out of me"

Where i used to live, i was 20 minutes from the "main" headquarters of the "new" kkk, in my school we had a bunch of "neo nazis" and kkk people >_<
Its sad really. so i've put up w/ a lot of discrimination
Weird thing is, they still let them into school even w/ a -Swastika- tattoo on the back of their necks and a "white knights of Camela" tattoo on their ankles
Blarg discrimination sucks, its everywhere, and not all of it is 'taken care of' and not every gets beat up for it
funny how in KKK rallies, the *new* (not so violent) Black panthers show up, and the cops are there to protect the KKK
.......hmmmmmm......

RoMayDrako
01-18-2003, 11:09 PM
As I said a million and one times, Welcome to America

XLainoftheWired
01-18-2003, 11:23 PM
no matter what you do, someones going to get pissed off, I wouldnt give a crap, but you never know who will try to beat the cra out of you..

John Booty
01-19-2003, 02:28 PM
I'm fully aware of the original history of the swastika and related symbols, but I personally would be pissed if I saw somebody wearing a Nazi-ish uniform with that symbol anywhere near it. Because for all practical purposes, a swastika means "Nazi" in today's world and by wearing that symbol you appear to be giving a vote of support to those ideals.

Wearing a costume like the one in "Blade Of The Immortal" would be pretty bad in my eyes too. I just don't think that's a symbol that should be paraded around. It's fine in the BotI manga, which I love, but that's just a different story to me because it's not "parading around in public". Also, hopefully anybody reading the American edition of those manga would also read the notice in the beginning of the books explaining the use of the swatika in this case. A luxury not present when you're walking around with one on your clothing!

Momoko
01-20-2003, 01:09 AM
A costume is a costume right? I mean, people walk around in bondage because it's a costume. Just because the nazi symbol may be there doesn't mean you support it 100% like some others may do. I mean, personally, I would make it because Die's outfits are pretty shibby. Sure, some will not like your choice, but hey, it's YOUR choice, not theirs. Maybe you hate their costume because of their choice of it. You can't help it, they can't help that you choose what you want, so my opinion is that it's stupid to argue over this and make Die's nazi outfit =D

Koumori
01-20-2003, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by Momoko
A costume is a costume right? I mean, people walk around in bondage because it's a costume.

Yes, but walking around in bondage isn't making an implicit moral and political statement and you know what? I give up on this thread. I've stated my position clearly. Either you understand where I'm coming from, or you don't, and I doubt I'll be able to make anybody who thinks this is even remotely OK change their mind. This post has rendered me absolutely speechless.

moo
01-20-2003, 10:34 AM
Originally posted by Momoko
Just because the nazi symbol may be there doesn't mean you support it 100% like some others may do.

How exactly would you convey this to the public? Carry a sign that says, "Just cuz I look like a Nazi doesn't mean I'm one"?

All of you who are in favor of wearing Nazi costumes, would you care if I made and wore a KKK bedsheet outfit to a con? After all, it's just a costume and I don't support the KKK's ideas 100%. That makes it ok, right?

Why in hell would you ever want to glorify the symbols of one of the most evil regimes that ever existed? Just because some rock band wore the bloody outfit does not excuse it. You wear it, my first inclination is to believe that you support the Nazis in some way, shape, or form. This makes you no different than the revisionists and neo-Nazis, for you are helping make the Nazis' image and the ideologies that go along with it okay for public consumption and mainstream acceptance. At the very least, you are trivializing the death and destruction of millions of people by turning Nazis into pop culture.

Rosiel
01-20-2003, 11:06 AM
> Just because the nazi symbol may be there doesn't mean you support it 100% like some others may do.

So how much do you support it?
Does dressing as someone dressing as a Nazi make you only a part time Nazi? Is that better than being a full-time Nazi?

Do you realize what you are saying?
A costume is NOT just a costume when it is a replica of something real and carries with it its ideology. Think further than the tip of your nose, to all the people present who remember friends and family who died in that war. Think of how you disrespect the dead. And we're not talking only Europeans here, many Americans died in Normandy to stop the war.

> You can't help it, they can't help that you choose what you want, so my opinion is that it's stupid to argue over this and make Die's nazi outfit =D

You CAN help wearing the thing as it was originally intended, by toning it down to a military uniform by not wearing any insignia.

This post just boggles the mind.

shiroi_yukiko
01-20-2003, 09:46 PM
*peeks out from under rock* Wow... this thread got long while I wasn't paying attention!

Anyway, as I said earlier, -I- would definitely change it. Even as a costume, I think its highly inappropriate to keep the Nazi swastika there. It's really a judgement call, but I think that most people agree: the costume can survive just as well without the symbol. As far as judgement goes, if you think about what exactly the history of the thing is... well, even if you (and that isn't really directed at anyone) aren't offended by it, someone surely will be (and has every right to be!). Most of this had been said already, ne? Me thinks I am done with this thread now. *coughcough*

*returns to hiding place*

die-sama
01-20-2003, 10:35 PM
>>All of you who are in favor of wearing Nazi costumes, would you care if I made and wore a KKK bedsheet outfit to a con? After all, it's just a costume and I don't support the KKK's ideas 100%. That makes it ok, right? <<<

acutally on the "lighter side of things" since we're talki about these costumes. there is a Jrock video w/ some people in it walkin around sort of like that...but just acutally w/ white bedsheets over them and stealing a cat ^^;;; (omocha no miisha -noir fluerir)
Ok just wanted to make that statement cuz i thought it was funny ^^;;;
*runs away*

TheLoneWolf
01-21-2003, 12:08 AM
It's all about the abuse of views,man!
You're doing this for some J-rock costume,right?

You think: "It's a J-Rock cosplay"
Others think: "It's a Nazi-Symbol thing....Nazi=Bad.....you=dead"

(Yes,I know that I will be snapped at for this......)

Nazi's were a twisted bunch,no doubt about that and hating them for killing lots of Jews saying they were crimes against humanity IS deserved,but let's be honest here: I'm typing this post living in a country that dropped two nuclear devices in the hearts of cities in Japan.Not army bases.Not research facilities.Neither Naval nor Air bases,but CITIES: centres of population and commerce,to ensure that it won the war......and has slapped umpteen sanctions on a country that can barely feed it's own people,(North Korea) for developing a nuclear program (and mind you,since i AM studying Nuclear Engineering,i DO know what I'm talking about by saying that developing a nuclear program is ridiculously simple,and again,no country really has a say in ANY sort of world politics without a nuclear program.Let's face it,the only time we saw N.Korea on the telly when it had suspended it's nuclear program was in the humanity features.) and is now on the brink of war with a country that is pretty much on it's knees after the previous round of sanctions we slapped it with.
My point being,every country has committed *MORE* than it's fair share of bloodshed.Before condemning a race/country for their ideologies,look at what your own have done to achieve theirs.

In closing,I'd like to say,go for the swatsika at your own risk.....my personal opinion keeping your safety in mind if you must keep it,would be to get the armband,and rather than having a Swatsika,get an X on it.....you know,Metal Slug style!

TheLoneWolf
01-21-2003, 12:10 AM
Whoops.....post ended......disregard all of the above then!

Rosiel
01-21-2003, 10:49 AM
> My point being,every country has committed *MORE* than it's fair share of bloodshed.

That's just insane. You're legitimizing bloodshed because others did it too? O_O So by your thinking there is nothing that can be frowned upon and denounced since you can always find someone else who did the same thing. Then why Nuremberg? They did not commit war crimes, they did what everyone else would have done and has already done at one point in history... maybe we should have decorated them for being more efficient than their predecessors?

Great revisionist history, batman!

> Before condemning a race/country for their ideologies,look at what your own have done to achieve theirs.

This is /highly/ insulting.

There is a difference between being forced to enter a war because you were attacked treacherously and deciding who is allowed to live and who has to die based on whether or not they conform to your ideal of a perfect race.

And I'm not even American.

Moreover your argument is confused. Compare ideologies to ideologies, not methods to ideologies.

THEIR IDEOLOGY WAS ETHNIC PURIFICATION.
Ours at the time was democracy and right for all to be free.

Do you even /realize/ what you are defending?

Anyway, this is so preposterous I'm following Koumori's example and getting out of this thread.

John Booty
01-21-2003, 12:51 PM
My grandfather worked in a Nazi forced labor camp.

Wouldn't it suck to be him and see a bunch of kids walking around in Nazi costumes for fun?

TheLoneWolf
01-21-2003, 04:26 PM
Forget it....I wash my hands of the matter.

Yui
01-21-2003, 05:45 PM
surplus stores...yep, that's right. We have WWII stuff. Anybody want a gas mask?

Yui
01-21-2003, 06:05 PM
Okay, well I think you've gotten plenty of input. I personally am more offended when I see hoochie cosplay chicks who decide to use real skin instead of flesh-colored fabric - for that speaks directly of a present lack of morals instead of some nostalgia of one. That's certainly not something for a family con, yet there are lots of them at every one.
I say, do Die. Do him as well and accurately as you can. Keep the armband, but either do the standard dir en grey text or the smiley face or whatever. Or write "there is supposed to be a certain symbol here, but uneducated people will misinterpret it, so it is omitted." Unless you are at a j-rock con only, where everybody there will understand, I think you should avoid bringing up the issue. People will take any reason to cause violence for the sake of revenge. No one deserves to be beat up because of what they're wearing. (Maybe what they are physically doing or saying...but not what they look like.)

We cosplay to support the messages of characters or j-rockers (who have made themselves into characters) that we find entrancing. We are not supporting nazism, we are supporting the fact that a really great band made a song involving the emotions induced from history - which removed from present day becomes dramatic, nearly fictious...to most people. We are not being insenstive of the past, but we also are not being squimish of it. We learn things more fully by re-remembering them. But this is too many layers of symbolism to explain quickly and is so easily blown out of reason.

I don't want anyone to be sad or shocked or pissed off because of someone's cosplay. That's a sad thought. You obviously got enough negative response to leave it out. But whatever you do, I'd give you a hug and a cookie if I saw ya. Good luck.

Yui
01-21-2003, 06:09 PM
One more thought...

Since symbols change with the times...maybe in a hundred years from now, the armband will stand for Die instead. ^_-

I think that's about it. I'm glad that people did get passionate here in this thread, though. You see, we're keeping history in mind by discussing it so actively by debating such a small aspect. Thank you, Die.

soshi
01-21-2003, 06:36 PM
We cosplay to support the messages of characters or j-rockers (who have made themselves into characters) that we find entrancing. We are not supporting nazism,

but by wearing a Nazi armband, you are saying it's OK to mimic a group of people who committed genocide. by wearing a Nazi armband, Die is supporting Nazism. it's probably a bull headed shock-rock publicity stunt, but it's still a stupid thing to do. it has nothing to do with religion, as he's wearing a military uniform with it.

and I hope this thread dies or someone closes it. -_-

RoMayDrako
01-21-2003, 11:14 PM
One thing you got to look at. Once a symbol has a history of blood behind it, there's no turning back for tht symbol. The only group to get away with blood shed unnessisarly is the Roman Cathlic Church. But the ideals now days are differnt then what they were years ago. So in the sence they were aloud to be seen as good agian. The natzi's how ever continue to shed blood needlessly and who once were there allies I seen them discriminate agianst. The whole situation is like a thorn in our side, proof of how idotic the human race can be. And if you had a thorn in your side, would you not want someone poking at it? Short if your not a rasist don't wear the symbol, it's been tainted, and it keeps getting worse.

Yui
01-22-2003, 12:20 AM
Ack, people think I'm supporting it just by saying wearing it doesn't necessarily hold that connotation to me. I do not presume that it doesn't mean anything in everyone's case - I actually am very impressed that so many people have discussed this intelligently...emotionally, but with very real and valid considerations. If someone gave the finger, that wouldn't necessarily mean anything to me either. (Great...now everyone's gonna flip me off at cons ^_-*) If I saw someone being beat up or sexually harrased or some physical act against them, I'd get pissed off and sickened and try to get help. But, even though I believe greatly in the power of object language, I would know not to assume anything from a detail from a person in a cosplay.

Anyway, -please- leave it off cuz now I'm dragged into this too much myself. O_o Maybe I'll have to be Kyo or Kaoru for ya so you've got some protection if anyone has any problems with the rest of the outfit now.

Kinda as an aside...I was just thinking it's weird that so many people -want- to dress up as storm troopers from Star Wars, too. I mean, to go see the movies, at the mall, at sci-fi cons...they even invaded AX last year, which I didn't care for. I know that's fictious, but they're supposed to be the same concept based on the bloody past. Mindless generic drones wrecking prejudiced, violent havoc. There's really nothing glamorous about it.

soshi
01-22-2003, 01:42 AM
... what?


(and just because apparently that's too short to post: woo haw, I'm getting my teeth drilled tomorrow. joy of joys.)

Yui
01-22-2003, 01:51 AM
counter-what I guess.

But you've given me an urge to go brush my teeth. Thanks for the hygene update.

Anyway, I just checked out my references from that set of costumes, and I do like Kaoru's (of course) and Kyo actually looks...pretty. So now, I'm leaning towards yet another DeG cosplay. That's what....# 6 on the line-up? Dang.

(Silly, silly Die. I have to say....it -is- mega-obvious. Must've been drunk when he planned that one. Oh wait, that's always ^_-)

avagoyle
01-28-2003, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by soshi
I agree with Koumori. even in Japan, seeing the swastika is offensive. seeing it ANYWHERE is offensive. while it may not be as much of a shocker in Japan because they're not properly educated on why that war went on, it's still Not A Good Symbol.


I don't know about this. I haven't been to Japan, but I have been to Little Tokyo and the swastika is everywhere.

Where it if you want, but don't be surprised if people throw things at you or call you bad names.

HuongStar
01-28-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by John Booty
Wearing a costume like the one in "Blade Of The Immortal" would be pretty bad in my eyes too. I just don't think that's a symbol that should be paraded around. It's fine in the BotI manga, which I love, but that's just a different story to me because it's not "parading around in public". Also, hopefully anybody reading the American edition of those manga would also read the notice in the beginning of the books explaining the use of the swatika in this case. A luxury not present when you're walking around with one on your clothing!
I plan on making a Manji costume for my boyfriend. Due to popular misconceptions regarding the swastika, he will have handouts with the preface from the Blade of the Immortal manga:MANJI WEARS A BLACK AND WHITE KIMONO with a sauvastika or crux gammata on its back. The swastika is an ancient symbol with unclear origins, although its name comes from the sanskrit words "su", meaning "well / good", and "asti", meaning "he is." The symbol symbolizes the sun, fire and strength, and is thought to be a simplified picture of the act of rapidly rotating a wooden stick while pressing it into a small cavity in a piece of wood, thus making fire. Hitler's Nazis used the swastika, whose arms points in a clockwise direction, as a symbol of the Aryan race. The sauvastika, a mirror image of the swastika, with arms pointing in a counterclockwise direction, symbolizes night, magic and mystery. It has also been used as a symbol for Buddhism in Japan, and is called "manji" in Japanese. It is this symbol Manji has on his back.
The sauvastika has no connection with Nazism or anti-Semitism, and Manji's having one on his kimono is not an anti-Semitic message. The sauvastika and the swastika have honorable origins and were symbols of prosperity until Hitler perverted their meaning.

Yuna
01-28-2003, 06:38 PM
=/

To leave this on a good note;

The masses say YES, they would be offended if a cosplayer was sporting a swastika, costume or nay.

The arugment whether or not it's ok to be offended by it is NOT the topic of this thread, therefore not a valid point with in this thread. If you wish to debate whether or not it is ok to be offended by Die where a pro Nazi armband, take it to the Serious Dissucsion forum.

Also, the discussion of whether or not it is ok because it is also a Buddhist religious symbol can also be taken to the Serious Disscusion forum because that was also not the point of this thread.

Again, for reiteration:

- The point of this thread was to find out if you, con goers, would be offended by a cosplayer who cosplayed Die in his Nazi regailia/military uniform WITH a swastika on it. -
That has been established. Yes, they would be offended. Where it at your own risk.