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View Full Version : Why do we feel the need for redundancy in fandom?


Kaijugal
06-13-2005, 11:10 AM
Observation time.

Why do we feel the need for redundancy in fandom? Everyone feels the need to branch off from everyone else instead of using good systems which are already in place. Why not create a strong, supportive, overall community rather than some weak, struggling, partisan ones?

Recently my attention has been directed to this site: http://oacs.theanimecafe.com/

This idea in of itself is a good one, however, there is already such a conference in exsistance, and in close proximity to the two member groups already stated.

http://www.icomm.ca/tcon/ccc1/

Were they unaware of the CCC#'s exsistance? Or would OACS been formed anyhow? From experience I know that conrunners need not be 100% dedicated to the same fandom to benefit from each other's experience.

Also the glaring omission of certain anime conventions is odd.

Just on my mind, thought I'd open it up to the general memebership here, for opinions and a fuller story since I know many of you are involved.

Cheers!

Lyulf
06-13-2005, 11:46 AM
O_O I never knew about that one last year, as I live close to where they had it. I would be helping wiht the cons if they were closer to my local. I guess unless they promote it with the communities that attend the cons, there will be redundances .

Squall1882
06-13-2005, 01:28 PM
I completely agree with everything that has been said. From a con attenders stand point there is too much rendundancy in conventions these days. Not only that.. but too much everything as far as I'm concerned.

Cons are popping up like mushrooms all over the place. As anime has become more popular, more and more people are infused with the idea to create a convention, or something to do with anime to show their love and support of the hobby (whether for cosplay or not). This is amazing that soo many are showing such a passion in one area, and are coming together to express it.

BUT....

As with everything in this great world of ours cons are starting to experience the effects of pollution. All of this passion is branching out and creating more and more smaller things, and more and more ways for people to spend their money. If this continues then people are just going to boycott the smaller cons altogether and just aim for the bigger ones (on a general level.. especially those that don't cosplay). This will be detrimental to any future cons wishing to gain the capacity and resources of something like AN.

Keep it clean

Genki de!!

Mekou
06-13-2005, 04:01 PM
Post removed for the time being. I may repost it when I'm not paranoid that it'll cause unneeded drama. ;_;

Kaijugal
06-13-2005, 05:13 PM
It's the younger people who are going off and creating thier own things because they are unhappy with how things are currently run. Most people think "Well why can't they just bring in the new ideas to the people who are already running such things?". IMO, the reason that this doesn't happen is because the new organizations feel intimidated by the older organizations. Like a mouse going to pull a whisker off a lion and hoping that it won't get eaten.



I'm really tired of the whole repeated perception of the 'young people' vs. 'the old people'.

I know it may come as a shock to you, but I was younger than most of you here when I first became involved in fandom and I'm still considered 'young' and 'new' to many people in fandom who have been doing these things since the 60's and 70's. (Most of my Non Cosplaying/Anime Fan friends are 10 or more years older than me).
I still pushed my ideas, and now contribute wholeheartedly for the good of the community even tho there are others who don't always agree with me.

You may not know, but in most circles I am considered the voice for 'the young people', that's why I'm always so shocked after fighting so hard to make you feel included and have you heard that you want to turn your backs on the opportunities already available. It's not impossible to change things, or to participate it just like anything else takes work and dedication. That's why I ask these questions.

More often than not these days I find the committes of the more established cons asking repeatedly "why do we have such trouble attracting young people to our staff?"," Why would the prefer to try and start a fledgeling convention rather than run thier programming, event, etc, in league with a convetion that can give them the type of support and backing they need?" They do not understand the WHY, because no one is telling them, how can you expect people to fix something if they dont' know it's broke? Unless that isn't the real reason at all.

I repeatedly hear rumbling of "we're not happy", and "we want things to be different", but never, WHY. Just alot of generalizations without explaination..

Personally I run several large and distinct aspects of major conventions and I have rarely, (to a point of not even being able to remember a specific incident), been approached in person with anyone saying , "I'm really unhappy with the way things are run can I help change it?".

On the ConComs and Execs I serve on I rarely see solid proposals for new programing. (Proposals meaning : This is what we would like to see; this is how it can be achived; this is where we expect to find the manpower to run it; this is how much we estimate it will cost the convention in money and resources; this is what we expect the end result to be.) You'd be suprised how open conventions are to at least considering that type of proposal.

Yes I'm sure things do seem intimidating, but that is a lousy excuse not to try.

Anyhow I'm not down on the idea of new conventions or organizations, not in the least. I do think it's good to have a testing ground to try all the ideas that others tell you, "won't work". You'll see that alot of the time they are right, but you'd also sometimes be able to prove that they are wrong, and both those things can be a good thing. :)

I am completely down on the US vs. THEM mentality, ESPECIALLY when it is linked to age. I've always felt it's and uncool attitude now matter which end I'm percived to be on. Always have, always will.

Just as a curious, based on one of your comments, what parts of NAF and GCAF are so dramatically different from those of Anime North and why? Also, why do you feel they would not have been accepted as part of the programming at another convention?
i.e. If you wanted to do a different sort of Cosplay Masquerade, Toronto Trek was, desperately looking for someone to run thier Friday Night Cosplay Masquerade, that would have been an excellent opportunity right there.

Thanks for your input Mekou-chan , Lyulf, and Squall. I'll be interested to hear more.

Cheers!
~Dawn

P.S. If you pulled my whisker off, I'd be a might ticked too, I mean , 'OW!'. ^_~

SimiHe
06-13-2005, 06:25 PM
HiHi, NOW I know that this is. Question that I want answered is what does this have to do with Cosplay? So what if people want to do their own thing, the thing is the people who are mentioning it are either offended or becoming defensive every time a con does something they don't like. The thing is, If it doesn't affect you, it shouldn't matter.

Stop being on the defensive people. Let people do what they want if they feel that is best for them. The thing is every con is different just like the people who run it, they will know what is best for their con and if this is what they choose, shouldn't be a matter of conversation wether you like it or not. Because wether you like it or not, it's not gonna change that fact that all these cons exisit for their own reasons alone, that OCAS exists.

Plus why start a thread which we all know will turn into tears and bloodshed. Not very professional.

Mekou
06-13-2005, 06:42 PM
I'm sorry Dawn if I offended you somehow. It seems like I did. I didn't mean to make my post sound so harsh.

Tsukasa_1
06-13-2005, 06:52 PM
-removed-

OACS: A gathering of Anime Event Organizers and General attendance in a public place to exchange concerns and ideas in person and to recieve feedback on their ideas- The site will within the next week to incorporate these objectives.

Kaijugal
06-13-2005, 07:30 PM
Question that I want answered is what does this have to do with Cosplay?

It has to do with events that service the cosplay community, that makes it relavent.


So what if people want to do their own thing, the thing is the people who are mentioning it are either offended or becoming defensive every time a con does something they don't like.

Appearently you need to read my post a little closer. The matter of 'like' never came into it.

Anyhow I'm not down on the idea of new conventions or organizations, not in the least. I do think it's good to have a testing ground to try all the ideas that others tell you, "won't work". You'll see that alot of the time they are right, but you'd also sometimes be able to prove that they are wrong, and both those things can be a good thing. :)


The thing is, If it doesn't affect you, it shouldn't matter.

To the point once again, it DOES affect me, just as it affects everyone else running a con.

In my case I'm on the concom of several cons who want to know what they are/aren't doing that is causing groups to break away. (It matters to them, and they care to know, far the opposite of not giving a rats butt, which I would have thought was a good thing). We cannot know these things without bringing up topics like this in various ways until we get ideas and answers. I run several notable cosplay events, if people aren't enjoying themselves or are going elsewhere, I'd like to know why. If I help run a convention and can't get young people involved I'd like to know why. If there are no new people to take over who will run our masquerades? Who will participate in them?

You saw yourself, when I asked about the CCC1 at the top of the page Mekou said "because nobody told us". It's obviously that there are certain groups that need to communicate more, in every and any way they can. Why do you complain about that?.


More often than not these days I find the committes of the more established cons asking repeatedly "why do we have such trouble attracting young people to our staff?"," Why would the prefer to try and start a fledgeling convention rather than run thier programming, event, etc, in league with a convetion that can give them the type of support and backing they need?" They do not understand the WHY, because no one is telling them, how can you expect people to fix something if they dont' know it's broke? <~~ Reposted becase obviously the point was lost.

In the case of people starting new conventions it affects them because it is important for thier views to be heard as well which is why I ASKED.
Plus why start a thread which we all know will turn into tears and bloodshed. Not very professional.

'Tears and bloodshed', how dramatic! :thumbsup: I belive that most people here can manage to discuss topics like this maturely. So far YOU are the one who contributed nothing important to this conversation and have gone out of your way to be accusatory. Was that your intention?



:bigtu: Mekou-chan no worries! You didn't offend me one bit. Yeah I get touchy about the age thing, (it's a sore spot because I feel it's currently the single most counterproductive thing in this fandom ), ^_^", and I may have come on strong, I apologize about that. ! I know that one day you'll be in my shoes and you'll understand *wry grin* I did thank you for your input and I'm glad you posted. You always handle things maturely. No Worries!

I'm sorry you deleted your post there was no need, but I understand. I know you're also feeling down about recent events so that's bumming you out.

Cheers!
~Dawn
[/QUOTE]

Ochika
06-13-2005, 08:10 PM
after talking to you and getting to know you i found your just like everyone else... not some man eating scary 'old lady'. i think alot of 'younger' people dont try to join cause like me they dont feel like they have enough experiance. i know i was THRILLED when you approched me, kaijugal, and asked me to join staff.. i was squeeing most of the night. i was also excited because i would be able to learn something new and hopefully apply it to my own con's masqurade in hopes to make it better, and hopefully through leaning and working under you maybe ill be the masqurade wiz you are one day. i agree that different cons should communicate more and be as 'one'...insted of..like 100. we should all stop making cons in hopes of becoming better then the others. and focuse on making one the best there is, so everyone will find something there they'll enjoy

theres Oki's 2 cents...of course Oki's poor and doesnt have 2 cents...so theres my two peices of lint ^_^

Nagii
06-13-2005, 08:21 PM
The only thing I am gonna say is that OACS is not a convention, conference, large gathering of bodies, army of gundams or anything that huge as many of you are thinking. It is just society for get togethers at Tim Hortons and whatnot to discuss the future of each other's cons.. Non-profit cons. So please stop blowing this into space, getting your panties in a tight-ward and start panic-ing.

As well if I might add respectively this is a con concern between con people, we do not need to show the public our problems. Things like these should be kept between convention organizaters inless it is a desperate need to tell the public. In a way by doing this your almost like some kind of Justice League, getting ready to point fingers at anything to make another guilty and look bad. But in reality, it's just called jumping on the bandwagon abit too early. Tsk Tsk

TamaraMacDonald
06-13-2005, 08:25 PM
Ok-
I am going to make this short and sweet- I was well aware of Concom months before oacs formed- and this society formed on the objective of meetings, not a convention for conrunnings- there is a big difference.

Now to why it was formed- let me say it in an easy way- I was told from ConCom members themselfs that they where UNSURE IF THERE WILL BE ANOTHER CONCOM. so before you go and tare apart people from trying- do the research because I know that I sure have. (hey I think someone said that to me last year)

So let me make it clear again, OACS is not a CONVENTION, its more of a group gathering in a public place for open discussions.

Oh before I forget- let me state this, if in fact you are RIGHT and that this isnt going to work out, then it isnt going to work out- we didnt invest any money in oacs, so with Nothing to gain and Nothing to lose- if it fails we WILL just walk away and work our own ways again. but hey atleast the coffee was good! XD

** If I have to edit this one more time I am going to go insane.

Mark- i think you missed Dawn's key messages here.:) We know it is not another convention but if you are looking for a venue where con organizers get together and share ideas, whether it is virtual or static- those places already exist and beyond the organizer group that Dawn has suggested.

We all share in our experiences- and there are already a few venues and opportunities to do that and to share resources (and not just in Ontario).

You are welcome to attend - though i dont know when the next get-together is...but it does include people that help out other events that are connected someway in fandom whether it be cosplay or other aspects.

Its just a suggestion from Dawn that you should also check out what has been established for networking opportunities and shared resources vs. setting up something new at the same time of trying to establish a new event.

But hey- if it is only a meeting of the minds of two newer events and that is all- so be it. I think Dawn just wanted to share with everyone , that there are other resources and other places to tap into- whether within in the cosplay or not. And if you make it into a public area that is open to discussion- then maybe membership should be based on individuals vs. groups, as the title (Anime Convention Society) and current membership indicates. I also hope you open it up to anime clubs too. Western Canada has an excellent model on how they bring their clubs together (LOVE their tshirts too! Go Mo-chan!)

Tamara

Kaijugal
06-14-2005, 10:36 AM
Ok-
I am going to make this short and sweet- I was well aware of Concom months before oacs formed- and this society formed on the objective of meetings, not a convention for conrunnings- there is a big difference.

Now to why it was formed- let me say it in an easy way- I was told from ConCom members themselfs that they where UNSURE IF THERE WILL BE ANOTHER CONCOM. so before you go and tare apart people from trying- do the research because I know that I sure have. (hey I think someone said that to me last year)

So let me make it clear again, OACS is not a CONVENTION, its more of a group gathering in a public place for open discussions.


It was short, but not in the least bit sweet. *wry grin*

If you read carefully you will find that I never anywhere in my original post suggested that OACS was a convention. I asked a few simple questions, i.e. "Were they unaware of the CCC#'s exsistance? Or would OACS been formed anyhow? "

I gave you an opportunity to explain your reasons, to say, "hey this is what we're doing, this is what we hope to achieve", to explain that OACS is meant to be less formal than the Canadian Conrunners Conference, or that you spoke with the organizer and had doubts, etc.

Instead of deciding to answer politely you decide to answer with vitrol and false accusations. Nice.

On a side note, you seem to have Con Com;(CONvention COMmittee. The group of volunteers that do the work of making a convention happen.), and Conference;( meeting of two or more persons for discussing matters of common concern ), confused.

As for research. I know the organizer of the CCC. Thanks.




Oh before I forget- let me state this, if in fact you are RIGHT and that this isnt going to work out, then it isnt going to work out.

Once again if you read my posts I NEVER state anywhere that OACS "isn't going to work out". You're putting words in my mouth again. I don't know why you a reacting like I am your enemy.

The only thing I am gonna say is that OACS is not a convention, conference, large gathering of bodies, army of gundams or anything that huge as many of you are thinking. It is just society for get togethers at Tim Hortons and whatnot to discuss the future of each other's cons.. Non-profit cons. So please stop blowing this into space, getting your panties in a tight-ward and start panic-ing.

Wow if you had dropped that last sentence, you may have almost sounded like you were giving a polite, rational reply to the question I originally put forth. I find it dissapointing that you are both leading memebers of your organizations and you both decided to reply to my questions rudely and nastily rather than just politely and constructively, making an attempt to explain.
As well if I might add respectively this is a con concern between con people, we do not need to show the public our problems.

There is no "con concern", whatever that may be.

I asked a question based on a website available to the public. I was trying to point out that there is a larger community you could be part of as legitimate conventions., however I was aware that you may have decided to do something else for any number of reasons, which is WHY I ASKED THE QUESTION. >_< To repeat ad nauseum I did ask "Were they unaware of the CCC#'s exsistance? Or would OACS been formed anyhow?" You could have just politely replied to those points without all the snarkiness.

As for problem, the only problem I see here is two people being rude for no reason, and one of them being the director of a convention that I may have considered attending at one time. -_-"

Anyhow, it's become rapidly appearent that a good number of people cannot discourse on this subject maturely so I withdraw my questions.

Thank you for your gracious pointing out of the obvious Tamara. It's appriciated. Thank you to everyone who provided positive input and worked towards mutual understanding.

Cheers!

Schubuttercup
06-14-2005, 11:33 AM
Oh wow..this hasn't got all scary yet, I am amazed, I really think people are starting to learn how to be cizivalized, yippie ^^

Now...I do think this shouldn't be in the public view..wait. Okay this reminds me of Hollywood. See in Hollywood your always under the public eye though cameras, news reports and so forth and this is also similar. As I sit in front of the tv, watching it I think, now why do I care if so and so broke up or in this case why do I care if some cons made their own social gathering?

I think the only reason people bring things like this up is to stir up trouble or cause a bad face, as you see in Hollywood. To me, it's annoying...it seems no matter how many times it's been said, no one seems to listen. Topics like these should stay out of public view and put into phone or email between convention organizaters. If OACS was a public gathering I would understand it showing up here as a topic, but OACS isn't.

It is not for us con goers and so it shouldn't be here and shouldn't concern us at all. Both parties have stressed that this gathering is private. Also because this is a private thing that gathers no money or does anything in that sort, there really isn't way it can fail inless parties involved stop showing up to these gatherings.

Now you all talk about making con commuities stronger, but really telling on each other to the public isn't gonna make it stronger, you all need to stop getting in the public's face and start talking to each other without public even knowing because it looks bad on all parts, espically the poster.

But other then that, thanks for not turning this into a war against wars.

Tsukasa_1
06-14-2005, 11:49 AM
-removed-

Tamara- I value your advise and input like always, I've taken note of your suggestions and look forward to implamenting them.

** here i go again with editing

Kaijugal
06-14-2005, 11:56 AM
If OACS was a public gathering I would understand it showing up here as a topic, but OACS isn't.

There was nothing on this site, http://oacs.theanimecafe.com/ (my only reference), to indicate that it was private. It does not say PRIVATE anywhere. As a matter of fact there is a link for "Joining OACS", which lead me to belive it was open to any con organizer.

The fact that it wasn't, (if that is the case), could have been mentioned politely Is it a, private, closed membership, or by invitation only? As of yet you are the only one who had even mentioned that it might possibly be. Are you one of the organizers?

It is not for us con goers and so it shouldn't be here and shouldn't concern us at all. Both parties have stressed that this gathering is private.

No they haven't.

As a matter of record, not one of the organizers that posted in this thread said that OACS is private. They have actually indicated very little about it.

As a matter of fact Tsuaska_1 said, "its more of a group gathering in a public place for open discussions." which doesn't sound very private or secertive.

And if it was not to be public information why make a website dedicated to it open to the public view? You can see my conundrum.

Once again people "in the know" could just politely explain instead of flying off the handle.

Anyhow. Thank you for your post and approaching this is a pleasent manner.

Cheers!

Tsukasa_1
06-14-2005, 12:16 PM
I dont think this thread needs to go on any further.

Squall1882
06-14-2005, 12:18 PM
?? I didn't find Kaijugal's posts to be provoking an argument.. they were simply asking a question. I think when reading the post people see what they want to see and may not first ask the question.. why is this person writing this in the first place. I don't think a post would be started as a blatant attack on others, especially not one by a masq. director/organiser!

As for the matter that this should be kept private, yes in certain cases it should be. But if cosplayers aren't exposed to the internal struggles of running a Con, how can the Con organizers ever hope for future generation/cosplayers to step up to the plate and fix the problems of the past and continue a convention on it's evolutionary path. If everyone is in the dark to the problems that go on, then a convention can never grow?

In this was I think it's perfectly appropriate for a public forum.. and to be included under the broad topic of cosplay, as it is directly linked to the cons, which without cosplay wouldn't exist.

Kaijugal
06-14-2005, 12:20 PM
I dont think this thread needs to go on any further.

Agreed. ^_^