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Unread 07-12-2012, 02:37 PM   #136
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As a cosplayer, I don't mind people taking random shots as I'm enjoying the convention. What I don't like are when these pictures are taken when I'm adjusting or fixing a piece of my outfit. A couple years back, a photographer posted a pretty awful picture of me in Hikaru from Angelic Layer fixing my Wizard's wig (as in, the clip holding it on broke and the entire wig came off). I'm all for "real life" shots, but it was pretty embarrassing to find myself tagged in a picture hunched over in the vinyl bodysuit (all the wrong creases) while my partner was sans wig with his normal hair sticking out from under the wig cap. It almost caused me to never wear that outfit again.

But if I'm just walking around or doing something random, have at! Take as many pictures as you like. I would like to see them (even just a few) eventually, though.
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Unread 08-04-2012, 09:50 AM   #137
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I'm not going to post a long response to this, because I'll admit that I don't know much about photography - though reading this thread has definitely broadened my knowledge.

At cons, I always ask for pictures, because, like others have previously said, it's a courtesy thing. It gives the cosplayer a chance to get into character, and create a photo that both the photographer and the cosplayer will like. Granted, I understand fully why photographers take candid photos, because there happens to be a "blink or you miss it" shot that they'd like to take. In that case, I definitely think they should be allowed to take it, but if they don't or can't ask the cosplayer if they're okay with their likeness being posted on the internet, they shouldn't upload it until they ask. It's the internet, if you go on Tumblr and track the tag of your con, you'll likely find your cosplayer.

As a cosplayer, I prefer it if people ask me beforehand for pictures, for all of the reasons stated in this thread. If candids are taken of me - and it has happened before, surprisingly often - I'd like it if the photographer asked me afterwards. I'd like to know that the photo exists.

Finding a picture of yourself that you didn't know existed is fucking creepy.
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Unread 08-04-2012, 09:25 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucilia View Post
Cosplayers are not objects. By suggesting we can and indeed should be treated in the same way as objects, you degrade and dehumanise us, and I find the suggestion to be deeply, deeply offensive.
This. Quoted for the truth.
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Unread 08-04-2012, 10:24 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Otaku View Post
This. Quoted for the truth.
Actually, that was quoted for false. She misrepresented my argument using a strawman fallacy, and I didn't compare people to objects, I compared photographing people to photographing objects, landscapes, etc. Photography is photography, regardless of what you're shooting. Likewise, I agree that people aren't objects. Photographers are people too and we have every right to pursue our art as cosplayers have to pursue theirs. To suggest otherwise contradicts your QFT and to argue that we need permission to pursue our art is where the real hypocrisy lies.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 12:52 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
Actually, that was quoted for false. She misrepresented my argument using a strawman fallacy, and I didn't compare people to objects, I compared photographing people to photographing objects, landscapes, etc. Photography is photography, regardless of what you're shooting. Likewise, I agree that people aren't objects. Photographers are people too and we have every right to pursue our art as cosplayers have to pursue theirs. To suggest otherwise contradicts your QFT and to argue that we need permission to pursue our art is where the real hypocrisy lies.
Actually, I wasn't quoting it for who it applied to. I quoted it for the sheer truth of the statement. So please don't be so quick to tell me I'm wrong for agreeing with an opinion.

And honestly, I don't think photographing a bowl of fruit is the same of photographing a cosplayer. That's just my opinion though.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 01:16 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
Actually, that was quoted for false. She misrepresented my argument using a strawman fallacy, and I didn't compare people to objects, I compared photographing people to photographing objects, landscapes, etc. .
Actually, she was quoting the sentiment, not necessarily the entire argument. So in that case, unless you want to tell her that she can't feel like more than an object, then yes, she was quoting for truth. In regards to your rebuttal, that's the whole point, isn't it? You're saying that it is okay to have the same regard and consideration for a person as you do for an object when photographing them. Which I completely disagree with for aforementioned reasons ad nauseam.

If that is the case, why have cosplayers as humans at all? Why not just put the clothes on a doll and position it correctly to exactly what you want and then take pictures of it? Why do you continue to take pictures of real people if you don't think that they bring something special to each photo that you take?

According to your own company's motto, "The most important part of Envisage U is you. You are the spark that enables us to build and help you realize the artistic demands that you require." But clearly, I am not important at all if there is nothing about me that influences your photos in any way. You might as well replace any picture that I appear in with a kitten for all that I really matter.

As a photographer at a convention, you have a unique opportunity to be able to ask the creator of the subject if it is all right to post what you made about them. Most cosplayers don't get to ask the source if it is all right that they make something new off of their art. I can tell you that most WILL if they have the chance. I had a rare opportunity to do so at Otakon when I dressed as Saber, from Gen Urobuchi's Fate/Zero to go to his autograph session. I got his seal of approval on my costume when he signed the inside of my armor. To be honest, I think it made the both of our's day.

Yes, Cosplayers have a bit of an entitlement issue with photos because to most of us, it's just a hobby, so we expect that photographers approach it the same way we do, with gusto and making the act itself to be its own reward. I know there is nothing that can be said that will change any way that anyone thinks about this because it is really only when you experience both sides that you truly understand.

In response to the initial question, as a fellow photographer and cosplayer, yes I find it exceptionally rude not to ask to take a picture of someone even if you ask if it is all right if you post it later, after you took the picture, due to a deep respect I have for the subject's own artistic sensibilities.

At this point, I agree with the Lols, this thread from earlier and I really think it's about time to let it die.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 01:34 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by brangienne View Post
Actually, she was quoting the sentiment, not necessarily the entire argument. So in that case, unless you want to tell her that she can't feel like more than an object, then yes, she was quoting for truth. In regards to your rebuttal, that's the whole point, isn't it? You're saying that it is okay to have the same regard and consideration for a person as you do for an object when photographing them. Which I completely disagree with for aforementioned reasons ad nauseam.

If that is the case, why have cosplayers as humans at all? Why not just put the clothes on a doll and position it correctly to exactly what you want and then take pictures of it? Why do you continue to take pictures of real people if you don't think that they bring something special to each photo that you take?

According to your own company's motto, "The most important part of Envisage U is you. You are the spark that enables us to build and help you realize the artistic demands that you require." But clearly, I am not important at all if there is nothing about me that influences your photos in any way. You might as well replace any picture that I appear in with a kitten for all that I really matter.

As a photographer at a convention, you have a unique opportunity to be able to ask the creator of the subject if it is all right to post what you made about them. Most cosplayers don't get to ask the source if it is all right that they make something new off of their art. I can tell you that most WILL if they have the chance. I had a rare opportunity to do so at Otakon when I dressed as Saber, from Gen Urobuchi's Fate/Zero to go to his autograph session. I got his seal of approval on my costume when he signed the inside of my armor. To be honest, I think it made the both of our's day.

Yes, Cosplayers have a bit of an entitlement issue with photos because to most of us, it's just a hobby, so we expect that photographers approach it the same way we do, with gusto and making the act itself to be its own reward. I know there is nothing that can be said that will change any way that anyone thinks about this because it is really only when you experience both sides that you truly understand.

In response to the initial question, as a fellow photographer and cosplayer, yes I find it exceptionally rude not to ask to take a picture of someone even if you ask if it is all right if you post it later, after you took the picture, due to a deep respect I have for the subject's own artistic sensibilities.

At this point, I agree with the Lols, this thread from earlier and I really think it's about time to let it die.
I must say, I agree with everything in this post. Very well stated.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 05:38 AM   #143
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@j_otaku - I didn't say "your opinion is wrong," I was just making sure you understood that what you quoted was originally a misrepresentation of an argument I made. My "quoted for false" was just an artistic reinterpretation of your statement to give what followed proper framing and more emphasis. It was not to demean or criticize your opinion.

@brang - "If that is the case, why have cosplayers as humans at all? Why not just put the clothes on a doll and position it correctly to exactly what you want and then take pictures of it? Why do you continue to take pictures of real people if you don't think that they bring something special to each photo that you take?"

1. There are photographers that photograph dolls with clothes and elaborate costumes.
2. I think that everything I shoot brings something special to the photo in the sense that it inspired me to shoot it, not in the sense that i helped create the photo. The photo is my artistic interpretation of something I experienced and want to convey to others, and if I experience something special enough, then I try to photograph it in a way that conveys the emotion I felt. I don't know exactly what you mean by "bring something special" but I know I've never said that what I shoot doesn't bring something special, so again you're trying to argue against something I never said or thought.


"According to your own company's motto, "The most important part of Envisage U is you. You are the spark that enables us to build and help you realize the artistic demands that you require." But clearly, I am not important at all if there is nothing about me that influences your photos in any way. You might as well replace any picture that I appear in with a kitten for all that I really matter."

1. The motto discusses the relationship between a client and the photographer. When someone is commissioning photography work, then generally there is a collaboration between what's to be shot and what the occasion is. In this example, clearly the client is both important and influential to the outcome of the work, and that is usually explained in a contract of what work is going to be done, compensation for said works, and ownership of said works. So I don't see how this quote is applicable to any argument you're making regarding people at a convention that aren't clients. It's clear that the quote says "demands that you require" which is an indicator that the commissioned work has some collaboration.
2. You're the only one making an assertion that the cosplayers I shoot aren't important because they don't influence how I approach and photograph things.
3.Influence definition. I don't know why you would draw a correlation between importance and influence. I shoot what I'm inspired to shoot and no one is secretly influencing how I crop,frame, or compose what I shoot, therefore are not influencing the photo. Of course, a person CAN influence a photo but just because they don't doesn't make them less important. Well, I mean, you think they are less important, but I don't.
4. You're the only one here that keeps advocating that cosplayers be replaced with dolls or kittens. I've never said this, only you have. I've merely stated that I take the same time, care and consideration for everything I shoot, in other words I treat the subjects of my photography equally.

"In response to the initial question, as a fellow photographer and cosplayer, yes I find it exceptionally rude not to ask to take a picture of someone even if you ask if it is all right if you post it later, after you took the picture, due to a deep respect I have for the subject's own artistic sensibilities. "

Your saber example actually contradicts your argument. You're saying you went ahead, without permission, and made a costume based off of Gen Urobuchi's design. You then wore that costume and displayed it in public before getting permission. So you're saying it's exceptionally rude for photographers to not ask for permission before taking pictures and displaying it to others, but it's ok for you to use another's intellectual design to create a costume and display it to others before you get permission yourself. That's hypocrisy, when ones own actions contradict what they say. There are only 2 differences between a photographer and a cosplayer in these examples.

The first difference is a matter of how much trouble an individual wants to go through to get permission. A cosplayer could find out what company a creator works for and obtain a phone number or email and try to obtain permission. A photographer would have to personally confront and possibly interrupt, bother, or disturb a cosplayer to get permission. Who's to say one requires more effort than the other? I know many people who are shy about speaking to others and would prefer the anonymity of email correspondence. So don't try and pretend that cosplayers don't have an opportunity to get permission, because they do. Realistically, you are probably not going to get a response, and if that's the reason you don't pursue permission through phone or email, then what you're really saying is that the bother of getting permission is not important enough to you, so you go ahead and make the costume anyway. This inconvenience just as equally applies to photographers in these examples.

The second difference is that a photograph doesn't infringe on or use your intellectual design or your costume and therefore a photographer doesn't need permission to take a photo.

I feel as long as people have new perspectives that they want to discuss then this thread should continue. In this post, I've rebutted some of the things you made up about what I think and what I've said and addressed a double standard you presented in your Saber example and assertion that photographers are rude when they don't obtain permission before pursuing their art. You say that cosplayers don't have an opportunity to get permission, implying that they don't need it, but the truth is they do have opportunities, they just may not be convenient.

I also have this to add. When you go to a convention, I'm sure many of you tell your friends and your family about it. You'll tell them how you saw a great Sailor Moon cosplay, and the girl had beautiful blue eyes and a great wig. You'll tell them about the people you met and the cosplays you saw. I'm sure many of you give a verbal record/description of what you encountered at a convention and I doubt any of you would try and prohibit others from experiencing and describing these encounters. With today's technology, not only can you give a verbal description of what you saw at a convention, but you can give a visual representation of it as well. That's what we call a photograph. Not only is photography a form of art, but it can also be a visual record of events that can be used to convey information to others. So for the same reasons no one should have to obtain permission before verbally sharing an experience with others, should no one have to obtain permission before visually sharing an experience with others. You don't need permission to see, hear, or experience public events, for the same reasons you don't need permission to record those public events.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 12:58 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
@j_otaku - I didn't say "your opinion is wrong," I was just making sure you understood that what you quoted was originally a misrepresentation of an argument I made. My "quoted for false" was just an artistic reinterpretation of your statement to give what followed proper framing and more emphasis. It was not to demean or criticize your opinion.

@brang - "If that is the case, why have cosplayers as humans at all? Why not just put the clothes on a doll and position it correctly to exactly what you want and then take pictures of it? Why do you continue to take pictures of real people if you don't think that they bring something special to each photo that you take?"

1. There are photographers that photograph dolls with clothes and elaborate costumes.
2. I think that everything I shoot brings something special to the photo in the sense that it inspired me to shoot it, not in the sense that i helped create the photo. The photo is my artistic interpretation of something I experienced and want to convey to others, and if I experience something special enough, then I try to photograph it in a way that conveys the emotion I felt. I don't know exactly what you mean by "bring something special" but I know I've never said that what I shoot doesn't bring something special, so again you're trying to argue against something I never said or thought.


"According to your own company's motto, "The most important part of Envisage U is you. You are the spark that enables us to build and help you realize the artistic demands that you require." But clearly, I am not important at all if there is nothing about me that influences your photos in any way. You might as well replace any picture that I appear in with a kitten for all that I really matter."

1. The motto discusses the relationship between a client and the photographer. When someone is commissioning photography work, then generally there is a collaboration between what's to be shot and what the occasion is. In this example, clearly the client is both important and influential to the outcome of the work, and that is usually explained in a contract of what work is going to be done, compensation for said works, and ownership of said works. So I don't see how this quote is applicable to any argument you're making regarding people at a convention that aren't clients. It's clear that the quote says "demands that you require" which is an indicator that the commissioned work has some collaboration.
2. You're the only one making an assertion that the cosplayers I shoot aren't important because they don't influence how I approach and photograph things.
3.Influence definition. I don't know why you would draw a correlation between importance and influence. I shoot what I'm inspired to shoot and no one is secretly influencing how I crop,frame, or compose what I shoot, therefore are not influencing the photo. Of course, a person CAN influence a photo but just because they don't doesn't make them less important. Well, I mean, you think they are less important, but I don't.
4. You're the only one here that keeps advocating that cosplayers be replaced with dolls or kittens. I've never said this, only you have. I've merely stated that I take the same time, care and consideration for everything I shoot, in other words I treat the subjects of my photography equally.

"In response to the initial question, as a fellow photographer and cosplayer, yes I find it exceptionally rude not to ask to take a picture of someone even if you ask if it is all right if you post it later, after you took the picture, due to a deep respect I have for the subject's own artistic sensibilities. "

Your saber example actually contradicts your argument. You're saying you went ahead, without permission, and made a costume based off of Gen Urobuchi's design. You then wore that costume and displayed it in public before getting permission. So you're saying it's exceptionally rude for photographers to not ask for permission before taking pictures and displaying it to others, but it's ok for you to use another's intellectual design to create a costume and display it to others before you get permission yourself. That's hypocrisy, when ones own actions contradict what they say. There are only 2 differences between a photographer and a cosplayer in these examples.

The first difference is a matter of how much trouble an individual wants to go through to get permission. A cosplayer could find out what company a creator works for and obtain a phone number or email and try to obtain permission. A photographer would have to personally confront and possibly interrupt, bother, or disturb a cosplayer to get permission. Who's to say one requires more effort than the other? I know many people who are shy about speaking to others and would prefer the anonymity of email correspondence. So don't try and pretend that cosplayers don't have an opportunity to get permission, because they do. Realistically, you are probably not going to get a response, and if that's the reason you don't pursue permission through phone or email, then what you're really saying is that the bother of getting permission is not important enough to you, so you go ahead and make the costume anyway. This inconvenience just as equally applies to photographers in these examples.

The second difference is that a photograph doesn't infringe on or use your intellectual design or your costume and therefore a photographer doesn't need permission to take a photo.

I feel as long as people have new perspectives that they want to discuss then this thread should continue. In this post, I've rebutted some of the things you made up about what I think and what I've said and addressed a double standard you presented in your Saber example and assertion that photographers are rude when they don't obtain permission before pursuing their art. You say that cosplayers don't have an opportunity to get permission, implying that they don't need it, but the truth is they do have opportunities, they just may not be convenient.

I also have this to add. When you go to a convention, I'm sure many of you tell your friends and your family about it. You'll tell them how you saw a great Sailor Moon cosplay, and the girl had beautiful blue eyes and a great wig. You'll tell them about the people you met and the cosplays you saw. I'm sure many of you give a verbal record/description of what you encountered at a convention and I doubt any of you would try and prohibit others from experiencing and describing these encounters. With today's technology, not only can you give a verbal description of what you saw at a convention, but you can give a visual representation of it as well. That's what we call a photograph. Not only is photography a form of art, but it can also be a visual record of events that can be used to convey information to others. So for the same reasons no one should have to obtain permission before verbally sharing an experience with others, should no one have to obtain permission before visually sharing an experience with others. You don't need permission to see, hear, or experience public events, for the same reasons you don't need permission to record those public events.
You do make some good points, but there's just one concern I have. Human rights. When you ask a cosplayer if you can take a picture of them, sometimes they will say no. Shouldn't that be okay? Shouldn't a cosplayer have the right to deny a photo? Maybe they're in the middle of doing something, or hurrying on the way to a panel, or maybe they're busy eating. If you capture a photo without they're permission, they're might not be ready to be photographed, and they might have said no had you asked them. That's my main problem with it. (I'm not saying you said we were, but) We're not a bowl of fruit. We are no the Grand Canyon. Underneath the often artistic and elaborate costumes, we're humans. You can make as many artistic comparisons to humans and other objects and how similar they are, but in the end I still think it's very rude to not ask before taking a picture.

If someone is shy about asking, wait until someone else asks them for a photo, then as they're posing for that photo, quickly ask "May I also take a photo?" They already said yes to the person about to take a photo, so I'd be very shocked if they denied you a picture.

Anyways, there's my main issue with it. XD You're entitled to your opinion, and like I said, you made some very good points. I don't expect your opinion to change (and hopefully you don't expect mine to), so ultimately I just hope you never see me at a convention/want to take my picture, lol.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 07:13 PM   #145
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*sighs* I promised myself that I wouldn't post any more, but really, I do feel I have to clarify. For Saber, that was the first thing that I did that day, when I was in that costume. Before I showed the public, before any pictures were taken of the final product, I asked if it was okay. If he would have said, oh god that is terrible how could you do that to my work, I would have changed, and respected his wishes, but he said I looked amazing, signed my armor and then I went out to show it to the public. I never said to ask before you created the art, but before you showed it to the public.

You answered your own question of why each and every cosplayer does not ask for permission for costuming in your answer, due to the fact that it is damn near impossible to do, so I'm not going to go into that.

I think that the subject is influencing the picture by being in it, because they are a human, interacting with the world in a certain way that you are capturing.

In regards to new news: Nerdcalibur posted this interesting article on their website recently: http://nerdcaliber.com/the-intersect...copyright-law/

And with that, I'm done.
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Unread 08-05-2012, 08:28 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brangienne View Post
*sighs* I promised myself that I wouldn't post any more, but really, I do feel I have to clarify. For Saber, that was the first thing that I did that day, when I was in that costume. Before I showed the public, before any pictures were taken of the final product, I asked if it was okay. If he would have said, oh god that is terrible how could you do that to my work, I would have changed, and respected his wishes, but he said I looked amazing, signed my armor and then I went out to show it to the public. I never said to ask before you created the art, but before you showed it to the public.

You answered your own question of why each and every cosplayer does not ask for permission for costuming in your answer, due to the fact that it is damn near impossible to do, so I'm not going to go into that.

I think that the subject is influencing the picture by being in it, because they are a human, interacting with the world in a certain way that you are capturing.

In regards to new news: Nerdcalibur posted this interesting article on their website recently: http://nerdcaliber.com/the-intersect...copyright-law/

And with that, I'm done.
Going out in public, is the same as "showing" it in public, which you did before obtaining permission. You could have dressed in casual wear, carried the costume in a bag, then showed it to the creator before you wore it. Wearing it in public is enough to qualify for showing it in public, it's not like you have to input a button command like up down left right before you're "officially" showing it in public and I find it hard to believe that you went to a public venue autograph signing at a convention and there was NO ONE THERE that could have seen you in your cosplay before you obtained permission.

Regarding permission, you actually said both. You said photographers should have to ask to take a picture before creating their art and before showing it to the public. I simply pointed out your double standard that you believe it's ok for you to create art and show it to the public (which includes wearing it out in public) before obtaining permission, but believe photographers have to get permission before hand. You essentially expect photographers to play by a different set of rules which is effectively a form of discrimination.

Finally, your link was an interesting read. I'm not sure if it was to prove a point, or was just for people to read. A lot of it reflected things we've already discussed in this thread, but it was more geared towards third parties creating fansites that uses other peoples' works.
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Unread 08-06-2012, 03:50 PM   #147
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I think what you want to avoid most is photography becoming (or being viewed as) a nuisance, because then it starts to affect the way that conventions, gatherings, and other events are run. If one is seen as conflicting with the other, or if the complaints start to roll in then the people who run conventions and other similar events might feel they have to choose between one and the other. Fortunately things are pretty far from this now, and there is no reason to think it will change anytime in the future. But if it was not the norm to ask for permission, things might have evolved or developed differently like the way some conventions are run in Japan.
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Unread 08-06-2012, 03:59 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by J_Otaku View Post
If someone is shy about asking, wait until someone else asks them for a photo, then as they're posing for that photo, quickly ask "May I also take a photo?" They already said yes to the person about to take a photo, so I'd be very shocked if they denied you a picture.
Please don't advocate this. If they wait on the sidelines until the other person is *completely* finished, then that's fine.
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Unread 08-06-2012, 10:25 PM   #149
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Please don't advocate this. If they wait on the sidelines until the other person is *completely* finished, then that's fine.
Sorry, that's what I meant. XD My wording was poor, though I definitely don't encourage interrupting another photographer.
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Unread 08-07-2012, 02:37 AM   #150
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I definitely don't encourage interrupting another photographer.
I'm glad you do. There are a lot of people at conventions, those who range from tourists to kids, from cell-phone users to DSLRs with big lenses, who like to come up while I'm doing a photo-shoot of a cosplayer, and will either shoot me shooting the cosplayer, shoot over my shoulder (I can hear the 10-frames per second going-off in my ear!), or interrupt my shoot just so they can get one picture of the cosplayer in a pose that I set-up. Very annoying..
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