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Unread 08-20-2012, 10:23 AM   #166
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I want to clear up my example about the please thing because I don't think I explained it as clearly as I should have. Obviously, if your friend ask you to pass them their bag, and you say no, nothing much is usually going to happen. In most daily uses with people you know, please is generally a request. But when you get in to situatrions where authority or legality can be involved, please is usually an implied order. For example, if you ignore a sign that says please wash your hands before returing to work, you can be fired. If you ignore a sign in a public park that says please pick up after yourself, you can be fined for littering. The defence "but it said please, so I should be free not to without consequences" isn't going to save you. This can also happen when please is used in conversation as well. If your boss tells you to please restock the paper towels in the bathroom, and you choose to ignore it, what do you think is going to happen? You could be fired, he could dock your pay, and at the very least you won't be on his good side and your up next if layoffs happen. That's why in the case of those convention rules where con staff is the authority and you could possibly run into a legal disagreement if you ignore their rules, I'd take the please to mean "Ask before taking photos, or risk being thrown out."

I also want to adress the point about the English language meaning what it means. Usually this is true. But as I have shown in the examples above, it is not always the case. Another good example of when you shouldn't take the English language litteraly is sarcasm. Just by changing the tone of your voice, you can change the meaning of the sentance, "You're smart" to "You're an idiot." I also want to point out that the English language isn't always clear, as can be seen with the word "You." "You " can refer to either just one person or a whole group of people, but which one the speaker means isn't always clear, and it can make a huge difference to the sentance. For example let's say I post in a Texas cosplay thread, "I hate you." I have never posted in this thread before. The post above mine says "Texas cosplayers are the best." I did not quote that nor any other post. You could take my post to mean I hate the person who posted above me, or that I hate Texas cosplayers in general. Which one I meant makes a huge difference, but unfortunatly it is not clear. Let's say I meant I hate the person above me for making that comment, but the people in that thread took it to mean I hate Texans, and I get horribly bashed for being a discriminatory elitist. You can easily take it either way, and because those convention rules weren't worded to be specific, I take it as "Please ask, because you risk being thrown out if you don't."

I think I can see where you're coming from with the must ask thing, so is "must ask or risk being thrown out" a better way to put it? Again, I just wanted to clear up the statement and example I made so you can hopefully see where I'm coming from. (And to anybody reading that Texas example, I don't hate Texans, and I get that a post like "(whoever) is the best" is uasually made jokingly, but I needed somthing to show an example with, so for the example's sake, I asumed when I posted that the person who posted it meant it negativly towards other people. I didn't pick Texas for any special reason, I'm sorry if I offended people with that.)
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Last edited by Chiagirl : 08-20-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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Unread 08-20-2012, 01:29 PM   #167
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Yes, it is a better way to put it, don't forget it only applies to "Some" conventions. There is ambiguity in the english language but that's why we have logic and reason to discern meaning. Generally in terms of conditions a company can't afford ambiguity or else risk getting sued. So terms and conditions are written very specifically. The whole terms of conditions of AX are a "follow these rules or risk being thrown out," and every rule is clearly stated. You still haven't addressed why they would suddenly say "Please ask permission," while every other rule is clearly stated and holds the punishment of having your admission status removed. It doesn't logically make sense to make a whole list of rules in the form of statements then insert one in the form of a request. The only reasonable conclusion is that the statements are rules and the latter is just a request, and therefore doesn't violate the terms of conditions.

Have you really not considered how impossible asking for permission can be? So many people take pictures with 20-40 people in them that it would be nearly impossible to get permission from them all before taking the shot. By the time you do get permission, all of the people you asked first have probably moved out of the frame and more people have moved in to the frame (yes, we're talking about people in the background). I'm sure AX understands how unreasonable it is to get permission from 30 people before taking a photograph, therefore only listed it as a request which means it doesn't hold a consequence. If they threw a person out because they didn't ask for permission first, then they would lose that lawsuit in court based on the line we're referring to. Of course, they probably have another part of the TOC that says AX staff can remove people for any reason, blah blah blah, but that doesn't mean you have to ask permission first. Even many cosplayers in this thread, hypocritically so, disregarded the need to ask people in the background, which by your reasoning would get you kicked out because you didn't ask every person that appears in your shot for permission. Makes no sense to require that from anyone.

I'll also note, those signs you refer to serve as a reminder to something that is listed as a "rule" elsewhere. This is why they use "please" on these signs. I can guarantee you that where these rules are actually stated, it doesn't say "please". When you get hired at a restaurant, it will clearly state that you "must wash your hands" after using the restroom in contract you'll have to sign before being hired. The sign in the bathroom is just a reminder of this rule, it is not a representation of the rule itself. Same thing for the littering example. The sign is just a reminder of something that is actually a law. Notice how no laws use the word "Please" in front of them. So your examples are good, but they are not an accurate representation of what a TOC is, which is a list of rules. Signs are just reminders of rules and are often placed as a courtesy for others and are therefore courteous themselves in their phrasing.

Edit: This is a good conversation we're having, so thank you for addressing something new for a change.

Last edited by TykeJack : 08-20-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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Unread 08-20-2012, 02:06 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by chiagirl View Post
If you ignore a sign in a public park that says please pick up after yourself, you can be fined for littering. The defence "but it said please, so I should be free not to without consequences" isn't going to save you.
elitist. You can easily take it either way, and because those convention rules weren't worded to be specific, I take it as "Please ask, because you risk being thrown out if you don't."
One thing about those signs -- A sign is not the law, nor does the sign create the law.
A sign's purpose (like that) is to remind you of some existing law -- ie. the given examples 'please wash your hands before returning to work' or 'please do not litter' or such. Often times these signs will list a specific ordinance and sometimes a penalty/fine if you read them in their entirety.

If there was no actual law on the books about washing your hands before working, or littering, or such, the sign would be a simple request or rather meaningless.

Also I think it's really rare to get thrown out of a con, especially just for taking a few photos without asking. If it's repeated harassment, yes, I've heard of people get thrown out for that. But I've also observed pervy photographers doing much worse, and at least nine times out of ten, they still get away with it. Like in one particular convention center where the sides of some of the escalators are clear -- pervs will stand below the escalators and shoot up -- trying to capture panty shots with their long lenses or super-zoom cameras. About the worst that happens to these guys is every once in a while, a staffer shows up and tells them to cut it out, makes sure they stop, and then moves on.

As for asking for (and obtaining) permission, I don't remember if I said it or not, but I think there are lots of times when it is implicit, unspoken, or such.

Like when I see someone from an anime that doesn't speak (and they are in character) often times it's just a look in their direction and reaching for the camera to get them to pose. Likewise if someone were deaf or hard of hearing, or there is a great deal of background noise, asking might be difficult and writing out the request might get you into trouble due to AX's policy against the use of signs by attendees.

Last edited by Access : 08-20-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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Unread 08-24-2012, 10:48 PM   #169
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Personally, people have taken photos of my stuff and not asked but I don't mind. It might be because I'm used to it. (My parents are photographers and I act) But I like people to ask so that I can see the photo or get a copy if I really like it.
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Unread 08-25-2012, 10:13 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Surfsama View Post
Interesting...utilitarianism is not a philosophic belief I would ascribe myself.

Let me put it another way:
A unique image opportunity presented itself.
A photographer had to decide whether to capture it or lose it forever.
The photographer captured it.
The photographer posted it.
Having been in this situation, I personally run up to the person and show the picture, explaining the reasoning behind it. If they like it, I give my information and where to find it.. if they don't like it, delete it right there. Easy.

I personally try to ask for permission as much as possible. While most cosplayers expect their photo to be taken, some are there just for fun and dressing up with their friends. They may not want their shot to be put up for fear of family, employers, or unfavorable parties in general, you never know. Besides, it's just common courtesy.
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Unread 08-26-2012, 09:21 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by cactusmomma View Post
Besides, it's just common courtesy.
Sometimes that can be an oxymoron. Courtesy is not always common...The same goes for
"common sense."
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