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Unread 09-04-2012, 02:38 PM   #16
Mesoian
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You all beat me to the rage table.

Heh, I did the same thing.

Also, if today's next gen specs rumors are true, we're not getting Versus until 2015, which sets the development time of that game at nearly 9 years.
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Unread 09-04-2012, 02:51 PM   #17
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Sure Zwei wants some more Nier, and I'm sure there's like maybe 50 people outside of Japan who agree.
I'm one of them!

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But that game tanked review and sales wise in the US/Europe markets, where MOST games need to succeed in order to become franchises. Say what you will about 13, but I'm fairly certain that game sold more copies in it's first 2 weeks of release than Nier will see in it's lifetime.

Given the current state of the game industries, taking risks with cult-classics/new IPs is a bold move, and can be damning. Especially with J-rpgs, which outside of "main" Final Fantasies, don't do too well outside of Japan.
Yeah, and it is a shame. I enjoyed XIII despite its many (many, many) flaws but Nier was close to brilliant. Not that Nier didn't have its flaws as well, but most of them felt like the result of a too small budget. :/

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I know Persona gets a lot of internet/press love (well deservingly), but those games don't do the same sort of sales figures, which like Hag said, is the important thing in the end.
Well, the important thing for the company anyway! I mean, yeah, if you don't make money you go out of business. And a company can get too greedy - charging for shitty DLC, &etc. But like I said - if it's not worth it to you DON'T BUY IT. What with demos, YouTube, blogs and so on, it's not that hard to get a pretty good idea of what a game is like before you buy it. If I'm not sure a game is going to be worth $60 to me, I wait for the price to come down.

And guys, how do you know that Versus won't suck? Maybe the reason that it's not out yet is that it's a mess. Or they've run into serious technical problems implementing all the new stuff. Or maybe it's turning out to be really really expensive and they need to churn out some more run of the mill stuff to fund it.

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You all beat me to the rage table.

Also, if today's next gen specs rumors are true, we're not getting Versus until 2015, which sets the development time of that game at nearly 9 years.
IDK, I just don't see it as being rage-worthy. The game companies dole out smallest amount of real info to keep people talking and hype the "buzz". And here we all are - talking about it. If they can keep us talking about it for 9 years - they win.

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XD I probably bought your copy.

Last edited by The Hag : 09-04-2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Unread 09-04-2012, 03:10 PM   #18
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IDK, I just don't see it as being rage-worthy. The game companies dole out smallest amount of real info to keep people talking and hype the "buzz". And here we all are - talking about it. If they can keep us talking about it for 9 years - they win.
No, they don't. It's actual a really serious problem. SquareEnix has, with Versus 13, taken a massive section of their normal production team and sent them onto a task which cannot be profitable until, at the earliest, 2016. It makes no difference whether or not the game makes money in 4 years, they have denied themselves profit for 10 years with this project. That's HORRIBLE mismanagement, the same mismanagement which which forced firings and layoffs during the development of the original final fantasy 13. FF13-2 and now 3 are (actually somewhat interesting) ways of minimizing the loss that versus is taking on the company.

And let's remember, if it wasn't for Square posthumously buying Eidos, square would be DEAD right now.
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Unread 09-04-2012, 03:32 PM   #19
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No, they don't. It's actual a really serious problem. SquareEnix has, with Versus 13, taken a massive section of their normal production team and sent them onto a task which cannot be profitable until, at the earliest, 2016. It makes no difference whether or not the game makes money in 4 years, they have denied themselves profit for 10 years with this project. That's HORRIBLE mismanagement, the same mismanagement which which forced firings and layoffs during the development of the original final fantasy 13. FF13-2 and now 3 are (actually somewhat interesting) ways of minimizing the loss that versus is taking on the company.

And let's remember, if it wasn't for Square posthumously buying Eidos, square would be DEAD right now.
Thank you for making a reasonable argument instead of boo-hooing about how Square ignores their fans. If your information is correct then it seems to me that the smart thing to do is cancel Versus, as I guess was rumored last month, then quickly un-rumored. Or at least shelve it indefinitely and reallocate resources.

I'm enough of a free-market capitalist to believe that if you can not manage your company profitably, then you deserve to go out of business. I am also enough of an optimist to believe that there will always be talented and creative people who will manage to get their games made. If Square goes under (or EA or Nintendo or whoever) I won't shed any tears. I will just find something else to play. Nostalgia is for suckers.
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Unread 09-04-2012, 04:43 PM   #20
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FF13 was good, dunno about 13-2. I do find the move to multiple-iterations-of-the-same-universe kind of odd for the FF series, but they've done with with FF10-2 (Which I didn't like), they made an offshoot of FF12 on NDS and it's becoming apparent with Dissidia and other remakes that they're trying to profit from existing stuff by adding/remaking rather than making an entirely new universe. They're also milking Kingdom Hearts for as much as possible.

I find it odd it's bad news --- there's hundreds of games out there to play, skip on that one if you don't want it. Until they finally complete Versus, there's no telling if it's going to be good or bad.

As a fan, knowing that I'll get Hitman somewhere in the future, that I got Human Revolution and there's *rumors* of a new Thief game. That makes me plenty happy, and chances are I'll enjoy this installment just as much as the original XD

I'm pretty sure Squareenix knows how to run themselves better than I do (Or their fans do).

PS: Also want more Nier.

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Unread 09-04-2012, 05:07 PM   #21
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PS: Also want more Nier.
So that's three of us! Think that's enough to make it a money maker?

Oh and in all likelihood, the countdown timer for TWEwY is for an iOS port, not a sequel. Oh well. Oops, I mean, Square YOU SUCK! Why do you hate your fans!?

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Unread 09-04-2012, 05:36 PM   #22
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So that's three of us! Think that's enough to make it a money maker?
Yes, obviously Square is digging itself in a hole for not listening to their whole 3 fans.

I wonder if Namco turning around and localizing Graces and planning to bring Xillia will turn out to be great for them instead of outing yet another Naruto title. (I sure hope it does!)

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Oh and in all likelihood, the countdown timer for TWEwY is for an iOS port, not a sequel. Oh well. Oops, I mean, Square YOU SUCK! Why do you hate your fans!?
That's always disappointing.

Even if Heavy Rain was kickass (for me), I wonder how many ended up disappointed when the scenery of a storm over a prairie with some flashes of Metal Gear stuff was mostly about Heavy Rain and some few previews of next gen games we haven't got on hands on yet.

---

For the record, I'm happy with Square so long as they keep making things I'm interested in. FF13-3 or Versus, it's all the same to me.
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Unread 09-04-2012, 09:32 PM   #23
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For the record, I'm happy with Square so long as they keep making things I'm interested in. FF13-3 or Versus, it's all the same to me.
So much truth behind this ,I'm happy people can genuinely make a real argument about why they don't like how a company is managing their projects as opposed to the "oh so popular bash and hate " that's so prevalent these days
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Unread 09-04-2012, 09:44 PM   #24
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It's a shame that Square hasn't released anything here that interest me lately that isn't a remake or more of an Enix game.

My point is, that's great, people like FF XIII, but it's time to move on. The only new game I have any interest in from Square Enix is Dragon Quest X, and even then it hasn't been announced for North American release.

That's another thing, I've been putting up with Square's localization bullshit for too long. They have kept too many good games over there out of fear of losing too much profit. I get it, the market here now doesn't lean towards RPGs anymore, but at least give us something different. I'm sick of relying on fan made translations, emulation, and modding systems to play Square games these days, I shouldn't have to.
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Unread 09-05-2012, 08:30 AM   #25
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And guys, how do you know that Versus won't suck? Maybe the reason that it's not out yet is that it's a mess. Or they've run into serious technical problems implementing all the new stuff. Or maybe it's turning out to be really really expensive and they need to churn out some more run of the mill stuff to fund it.



IDK, I just don't see it as being rage-worthy. The game companies dole out smallest amount of real info to keep people talking and hype the "buzz". And here we all are - talking about it. If they can keep us talking about it for 9 years - they win.


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Originally Posted by Mesoian View Post
No, they don't. It's actual a really serious problem. SquareEnix has, with Versus 13, taken a massive section of their normal production team and sent them onto a task which cannot be profitable until, at the earliest, 2016. It makes no difference whether or not the game makes money in 4 years, they have denied themselves profit for 10 years with this project. That's HORRIBLE mismanagement, the same mismanagement which which forced firings and layoffs during the development of the original final fantasy 13. FF13-2 and now 3 are (actually somewhat interesting) ways of minimizing the loss that versus is taking on the company.

And let's remember, if it wasn't for Square posthumously buying Eidos, square would be DEAD right now.
Keep in mind, while Squenix showed off pre-render footage for Versus 13 hojillion years ago, the game wasn't actually in development until maybe 2 or 3 years ago? And it's definetly not a problem unique to Square-also see Sony & Last Guardian. It's almost as if developing games in Japan is toxic or something......oh wait....it is. Regardless Sqaure made some decisions both wise and stupid, like nearly every other company on the planet. It happens, get over it, cause in the end, how much does their Q2 profits from 2013 affect your life?

Moinvg on let us not forget Duke Nukem, Prey, Resident Evil 4 & Borderlands, not to mention other countless games that were delayed for whatever reason. Personally I was never excited for v13, and really there's an average of 3-4 amazing games per year, not including indie stuff and stuff I already missed. Hell look at the next 6 months of releases- Borderlands 2, Ass Creed 3, RE6, Bioshock, HOPEFULLY Anarchy Reigns, MG Revengenance, Dishonored...and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

TLDR: Seriously why get mad over 1 game when the industry has so much more to offer.


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So that's three of us! Think that's enough to make it a money maker?

Oh and in all likelihood, the countdown timer for TWEwY is for an iOS port, not a sequel. Oh well. Oops, I mean, Square YOU SUCK! Why do you hate your fans!?
I think that was confirmed last week when it was accidentally leaked to the internet-computers. And read talk, that thing looks AMAZING on the ipad from the screenshots. The wife just grabbed Bastion for the ipad, which looks great, so hopefully when she's done with that I can nudge her into picking up TWEwY.
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Unread 09-05-2012, 11:28 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by TheAnarCHris View Post
Keep in mind, while Squenix showed off pre-render footage for Versus 13 hojillion years ago, the game wasn't actually in development until maybe 2 or 3 years ago? And it's definetly not a problem unique to Square-also see Sony & Last Guardian. It's almost as if developing games in Japan is toxic or something......oh wait....it is. Regardless Sqaure made some decisions both wise and stupid, like nearly every other company on the planet. It happens, get over it, cause in the end, how much does their Q2 profits from 2013 affect your life?
Well, it sort of does matter, mostly because it's this type of super poor management that is keeping Square, and like you said, most japanese development, in this odd nebulous sinkhole where they're spending a ton of money with no return. It's only going to be a matter of time before Square finds itself in a THQ position, and they are burning the clout that final fantasy has which can pull them out of the garbage. I don't want to see Final Fantasy go away, I want it to be engaging again, and this formula that they've created which is nothing but constant backpeddling from previous horrible decisions isn't the proper way to go.

Quote:
Moinvg on let us not forget Duke Nukem, Prey, Resident Evil 4 & Borderlands, not to mention other countless games that were delayed for whatever reason. Personally I was never excited for v13, and really there's an average of 3-4 amazing games per year, not including indie stuff and stuff I already missed. Hell look at the next 6 months of releases- Borderlands 2, Ass Creed 3, RE6, Bioshock, HOPEFULLY Anarchy Reigns, MG Revengenance, Dishonored...and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

TLDR: Seriously why get mad over 1 game when the industry has so much more to offer.
There's other stuff to play, but those studios are the ones that "get it". They're the companies that aren't in trouble and have lucrative licences which is going to make them a lot of money over the course of the next few years. Maybe it's just the evolution of things though. But in the end, Tomb Raider and Dues Ex 2 will keep Square afloat while SquareEnix Japan continues to make horrid decisions and squandering their licences until they shut that Japanese studio down for good.


Part of why I look so closely at all this is because I find it really sad that the bottom is falling out of the Japanese game dev situation and they don't seem to realize it. The decisions being made by Capcom and Square are very akin to 38 studios or Bioware, which result in layoffs and firings and lost jobs and talent and very few people (in Japan) seem to care. It makes me wonder if an industry exodus is gonna happen in the next few years.

In other news, Sega's 2012-2013 line up seems...shockingly amazing. But for-realz, if they're not sure about Anarchy Reigns in North America, they should just throw that stuff up on XBLA and be done with it. Charge 30 bucks, let the people who want it buy it and stop pretending that they're going to do anything with it.

And I am 100% convinced that the Last Guardian is cancelled and Team ICO is dead. I expect a full disbanding/restructuring in the next 6 months.
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Unread 09-05-2012, 01:06 PM   #27
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For the record, I'm happy with Square so long as they keep making things I'm interested in. FF13-3 or Versus, it's all the same to me.
For the record - I really don't have much loyalty to any publisher or developer. It's a business relationship. All a business owes me is to not lie to me about what their product is and state the total price. Then it's up to me to decide if it's worth my money or not. And this is something where I think the XIII haters may have a legitimate gripe. Full disclosure - the only FF game I have played is XIII. I tried a DS port of, er, IV? maybe? and lost interest after about 5 minutes. BUT - I heard a lot of complaints about the linearity and lack of towns in XIII and unless that was all widely publicized beforehand (which maybe it was? IDK) people have a right to be pissed. If you have played FFI-XII, I think you have the right to expect something similar from XIII or be given plenty of warning so you can decide whether or not you want to buy it.

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My point is, that's great, people like FF XIII, but it's time to move on.
I don't think that having three games in one universe is that big of a deal. Honestly, that's pretty standard. The more important thing is that a game is good. Or, well, let's say enjoyable. Like I said, I enjoyed XIII despite its problems. It just seems weird to me that here's one game we know almost nothing about - XIII-3 - and everyone's going IT SUCKS!!! Then there's another game that we know almost nothing about - Versus - and everyone is screaming because Square is refusing to release this AWESOME game. And yeah, the Versus graphics look great and it sounds amazing from what's been said, but so what? Talk is cheap. It could still suck.

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That's another thing, I've been putting up with Square's localization bullshit for too long. They have kept too many good games over there out of fear of losing too much profit. I get it, the market here now doesn't lean towards RPGs anymore, but at least give us something different. I'm sick of relying on fan made translations, emulation, and modding systems to play Square games these days, I shouldn't have to.
Yeah, that's a drag. But what's the answer? "Shouldn't have to" doesn't even enter into it. If they thought they could make money with an official NA release they would. So they should localize these games, lose money and go out of business? Yeah - maybe they could try improving their marketing, but can they create demand where there is none? Maybe look at it this way - at least in the digital age you can get fan translations, emulators and mods. Who knows - maybe this is an opportunity for a smaller start-up company. Find a way to translate and digitally distribute niche titles. I don't know nearly enough about programming or the industry to know if that is financially feasible.

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It's almost as if developing games in Japan is toxic or something......oh wait....it is.
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Well, it sort of does matter, mostly because it's this type of super poor management that is keeping Square, and like you said, most japanese development, in this odd nebulous sinkhole where they're spending a ton of money with no return.
I think it was the guy who made Fez (too lazy to google) who stirred up a minor controversy by saying that the Japanese don't know how to make modern games. Since my two favorite games last year (Dark Souls and Catherine) were both from Japanese companies, I just shrugged it off. But you know, when I was playing XIII I thought, "Ohhhhhhh. Maybe this is what he means?" I'm not going to claim that I know a lot about game design, but in what world is 10 chapters of "walk forward and press X" followed by 1 chapter of ball-busting enemies in a giant open world, most of whom you're not supposed to fight yet, followed by 2 chapters of mostly walking forward and occasionally doing something other than press X, considered a good idea? I won't go into the whole laundry list of minor things that made no sense. IDK, it seemed to have a lot of the basics down - solid battle system, potentially interesting characters and story, snazzy graphics - but couldn't manage to put them all together and develop them in a coherent way.

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I don't want to see Final Fantasy go away, I want it to be engaging again, and this formula that they've created which is nothing but constant backpeddling from previous horrible decisions isn't the proper way to go.
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Maybe it's just the evolution of things though.
Well, you know, nothing lasts forever. Even if it is nearing the end, 25 years is a good run.

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And I am 100% convinced that the Last Guardian is cancelled and Team ICO is dead. I expect a full disbanding/restructuring in the next 6 months.
You may be right, but either way, I've decided to stop caring. Announcing a game and then not delivering in a timely manner screams "problems". Even if it does end up getting made it's likely to be a mess. Out of curiosity - what are some games that were years in the making that people think were worth the wait?

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Unread 09-05-2012, 01:24 PM   #28
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Out of curiosity - what are some games that were years in the making that people think were worth the wait?
For me, Alan Wake was one.

There's plenty of complaints out there about the long development time, "dated" (I'm using quotes here for a reason) graphics and stuff like that.

But for me, it was an epic. To be honest, I didn't even know it took that long to come around, I barely bother keeping up with upcoming releases until about a week from when they become actual goods to be bought. It's also partly due that I discredit any mentions of "long development cycles" as a criticism, what, did they want developers to make more crunch shifts? Who are these people, managers?

I watched the Watch Dogs stuff from E3 and I think it's awesome. I'm just not following it until it actually comes out, unless I got actual stock bought in the developers, whatever I think is irrevelant for them XD
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Unread 09-05-2012, 01:33 PM   #29
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Well, it sort of does matter, mostly because it's this type of super poor management that is keeping Square, and like you said, most japanese development, in this odd nebulous sinkhole where they're spending a ton of money with no return. It's only going to be a matter of time before Square finds itself in a THQ position, and they are burning the clout that final fantasy has which can pull them out of the garbage. I don't want to see Final Fantasy go away, I want it to be engaging again, and this formula that they've created which is nothing but constant backpeddling from previous horrible decisions isn't the proper way to go.



There's other stuff to play, but those studios are the ones that "get it". They're the companies that aren't in trouble and have lucrative licences which is going to make them a lot of money over the course of the next few years. Maybe it's just the evolution of things though. But in the end, Tomb Raider and Dues Ex 2 will keep Square afloat while SquareEnix Japan continues to make horrid decisions and squandering their licences until they shut that Japanese studio down for good.


Part of why I look so closely at all this is because I find it really sad that the bottom is falling out of the Japanese game dev situation and they don't seem to realize it. The decisions being made by Capcom and Square are very akin to 38 studios or Bioware, which result in layoffs and firings and lost jobs and talent and very few people (in Japan) seem to care. It makes me wonder if an industry exodus is gonna happen in the next few years.

In other news, Sega's 2012-2013 line up seems...shockingly amazing. But for-realz, if they're not sure about Anarchy Reigns in North America, they should just throw that stuff up on XBLA and be done with it. Charge 30 bucks, let the people who want it buy it and stop pretending that they're going to do anything with it.

And I am 100% convinced that the Last Guardian is cancelled and Team ICO is dead. I expect a full disbanding/restructuring in the next 6 months.
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Originally Posted by The Hag View Post
For the record - I really don't have much loyalty to any publisher or developer. It's a business relationship. All a business owes me is to not lie to me about what their product is and state the total price. Then it's up to me to decide if it's worth my money or not. And this is something where I think the XIII haters may have a legitimate gripe. Full disclosure - the only FF game I have played is XIII. I tried a DS port of, er, IV? maybe? and lost interest after about 5 minutes. BUT - I heard a lot of complaints about the linearity and lack of towns in XIII and unless that was all widely publicized beforehand (which maybe it was? IDK) people have a right to be pissed. If you have played FFI-XII, I think you have the right to expect something similar from XIII or be given plenty of warning so you can decide whether or not you want to buy it.



I don't think that having three games in one universe is that big of a deal. Honestly, that's pretty standard. The more important thing is that a game is good. Or, well, let's say enjoyable. Like I said, I enjoyed XIII despite its problems. It just seems weird to me that here's one game we know almost nothing about - XIII-3 - and everyone's going IT SUCKS!!! Then there's another game that we know almost nothing about - Versus - and everyone is screaming because Square is refusing to release this AWESOME game. And yeah, the Versus graphics look great and it sounds amazing from what's been said, but so what? Talk is cheap. It could still suck.



Yeah, that's a drag. But what's the answer? "Shouldn't have to" doesn't even enter into it. If they thought they could make money with an official NA release they would. So they should localize these games, lose money and go out of business? Yeah - maybe they could try improving their marketing, but can they create demand where there is none? Maybe look at it this way - at least in the digital age you can get fan translations, emulators and mods. Who knows - maybe this is an opportunity for a smaller start-up company. Find a way to translate and digitally distribute niche titles. I don't know nearly enough about programming or the industry to know if that is financially feasible.





I think it was the guy who made Fez (too lazy to google) who stirred up a minor controversy by saying that the Japanese don't know how to make modern games. Since my two favorite games last year (Dark Souls and Catherine) were both from Japanese companies, I just shrugged it off. But you know, when I was playing XIII I thought, "Ohhhhhhh. Maybe this is what he means?" I'm not going to claim that I know a lot about game design, but in what world is 10 chapters of "walk forward and press X" followed by 1 chapter of ball-busting enemies in a giant open world, most of whom you're not supposed to fight yet, followed by 2 chapters of mostly walking forward and occasionally doing something other than press X, considered a good idea? I won't go into the whole laundry list of minor things that made no sense. IDK, it seemed to have a lot of the basics down - solid battle system, potentially interesting characters and story, snazzy graphics - but didn't seem to know how to put them all together and develop them in a coherent way.





Well, you know, nothing lasts forever. Even if it is nearing the end, 25 years is a good run.



You may be right, but either way, I've decided to stop caring. Announcing a game and then not delivering in a timely manner screams "problems". Even if it does end up getting made it's likely to be a mess. Out of curiosity - what are some games that were years in the making that people think were worth the wait?
1) Square really didn't say anything about towns when the game launched in Japan,, but when it did, the internet blew up. Then the game came out in the US/Japan and sold a million+ copies. Square LISTENED to the fans and brought towns and sidequesrs back in XIII-2, which, from outside of the plot, I heard is a better game than XIII on a technical level. It also sold well and hence the announcement of Xiii-3 or whatever it's called.

2) Remember the FFVII spin-off fest? Remember how that nearly killed Sq-NO WAIT, IT PRINTED MONEY FOR THE COMPANY! Granted the quality of the products vary, finanically it made sense. Also see Kingdom Hearts. The fans bitch about the hojillion spin offs, but SOMEONE'S buying. That and 2 of them are actually better games than KH2 (which ain't saying much, but you knoq $$$). Bottom line- this isn't a new thing, I wish peole would stop acting like it was.

3) Most US games are move left and right and shoot brown people/aliens/Russians/zombies. I think there's a major creative rut globally, but the gaming media is doing a fine job on blaming Japan so they don't lose the right to cover "Call of Madden Halo Warfare."

4) Square has made some progress over the last few years. The Edios buy-out paid off, Sleeping Dogs is solid, there's that downloadable game that the lady who co-created Portal, and their iOS ports/games are pretty good overall. They're learning at the least, although I imagine their big bucks comes from KH/FF/DQ. There's also their animation/manga division (FACT: Square's always turned a profit on their anime stuffs), and various mercandise outlets. And FF11 is STILL profitable (somehow). Not to mention they do publish a lot of western game in Japan, which may not be the most lucrative thing in the world, but it's something. And their PS1 ports are STILL selling digitally.

5) As for Last Guardian-man don't get me started on what Sony did wrong this generation. Aside from....mostly everything.
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Unread 09-05-2012, 04:01 PM   #30
The Hag
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Originally Posted by TheAnarCHris View Post
3)I think there's a major creative rut globally, but the gaming media is doing a fine job on blaming Japan so they don't lose the right to cover "Call of Madden Halo Warfare."
You know, I'm gonna have to disagree. I can remember, maybe 10-12 years back standing in front of a rack of games and thinking, "I just don't see anything that looks worth $60." That is absolutely not a problem now. Also XBLA and PSN have really opened things up for smaller developers. Journey? Fez? Two of my favorite games this year. I don't play most of the big US franchises - your "Call of Madden Halo Warfare" - but I loved Mass Effect 3. ACIII is going in a new-ish direction. The new one from Quantic Dream the name of which I forget sounds interesting. Watch Dogs doesn't look like the kind of thing I'd like, but it does look different. IDK - I'm sure that I don't play as many games as most of you guys, but I don't have any problem finding new stuff to play that is actually new and not just part of my backlog.

Last edited by The Hag : 09-05-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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