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Unread 11-27-2012, 11:42 AM   #16
nathancarter
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Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
While we're talking about reviews, why don't we have a "cosplayer review" thread as well? Here we can report incidents to other photographers so they can be sure not to work with said cosplayer. Like if the cosplayer seemed disinterested during the shoot, was unwilling to smile or try new poses or actions, had 0 poses of his/her own to offer, kept answering their cell phone during the shoot, was rude (highly subjective, BUT WHO CARES), demanded that you remove your work from the internet because they don't like being shot from that side, requested perverted poses, tried to force you to take pictures of their friends, edited your work without permission(removing watermarks or other enhancements), AND MORE!!!!!!!
If I was paying a cosplayer to model for me, sure, why not?
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Unread 11-27-2012, 12:13 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
While we're talking about reviews, why don't we have a "cosplayer review" thread as well? Here we can report incidents to other photographers so they can be sure not to work with said cosplayer. Like if the cosplayer seemed disinterested during the shoot, was unwilling to smile or try new poses or actions, had 0 poses of his/her own to offer, kept answering their cell phone during the shoot, was rude (highly subjective, BUT WHO CARES), demanded that you remove your work from the internet because they don't like being shot from that side, requested perverted poses, tried to force you to take pictures of their friends, edited your work without permission(removing watermarks or other enhancements), AND MORE!!!!!!!
Hahaha

I think if the cosplayer is paying the photographer, then starting a review section is a great idea. But attempting to review a photographer that is just at a con, might be a little hard. If sexual harassment is involved, notify staff and warn your friends. What some people find uncomfortable, other people don't.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 12:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
psyche and reasoning behind this, but you can look it up if you doubt it. Hell, even the first 5 or 6 actual reviews on the commissioner reviews forums are negative reviews. So, a photographer review will inherently become a thread for bashing.
This is why limit it to photographers who are paid for their services, it's honestly a subset of a subset. With commissioning, it's the norm -- in most transactions, money will be exchanged. With photographers, it is not the norm. Money is only very rarely exchanged for a shoot and most people already have ways to find photographers who will be glad to shoot for free.

When money is exchanged, people have the right to post their grievances publicly if they are unhappy with what was given -- the only question real question is _where_ to post those grievances (since forums like these are privately owned and run as such). This is one of the underpinnings of a free society, free market, and consumerism in general.

It may be more likely that people post about negative experiences than positive ones; and there are other ways to break the system (like having confederates post positive reviews), still I think you will find that this is still a helpful ingredient when it comes to the free market.

And word of mouth will always be preferable (IMO).

Last edited by Access : 11-27-2012 at 12:53 PM.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 01:41 PM   #19
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I was being vague about the situation because I didn't want to review someone in a nonexistent review thread? I was mostly trying to say "hey, bad shit happens, maybe we should have a thread for it, heres a general example". I wasn't trying to be all "pitch forks" or whatever you said.

Man, everyone in this forum is SO ACCUSATORY. No wonder I left this site years ago, jesus christ.

Alright, guys, nevermind then. I'll just have him reported to con staff, and ya'll can go back to your lives without feeling threatened by a user who is concerned about their best friend.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 03:31 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Axelai View Post
...I wasn't trying to be all "pitch forks" or whatever you said.

Man, everyone in this forum is SO ACCUSATORY. No wonder I left this site years ago, jesus christ.

Alright, guys, nevermind then. I'll just have him reported to con staff, and ya'll can go back to your lives without feeling threatened by a user who is concerned about their best friend.
Wow. Great ideas can fall on deaf ears. Many of us spent our good time trying to be helpful to your request or inquires, including whether we support your ideas, and how to protect cosplayers including your friend. Then your reaction for all that is put "everyone" down for it.

I don't see how "everyone" , or even most of us was being "accusatory" towards you. Since the reviews would include opinions from people other than you, some of us merely predicted that there is likely to be some people who would be unfair with subjectivity, and/or bash photographers. Some of the consensus wrote ways to protect your friend without having to post it here.

When you make blanket statements like this "everyone in this forum is SO ACCUSATORY", please look at who is being so accusatory.

Last edited by brucer007 : 11-27-2012 at 03:41 PM.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 03:47 PM   #21
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Unread 11-27-2012, 04:44 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Axelai View Post
Man, everyone in this forum is SO ACCUSATORY. No wonder I left this site years ago, jesus christ.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 07:38 PM   #23
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This site wouldn't let me post the comment I wanted. So I took a screenshot and posted it to imgur if anyone want's to read.

http://i.imgur.com/uqhib.jpg

@Alexai-just for the record, I don't really recall anyone making accusations here with the exception of you and the photographer you originally had a problem with. It wasn't a general example at all, it was very specific and you could have easily explained your ACCUSATIONS of perversion without identifying the accused.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 08:22 PM   #24
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Tykejack I think of it this way, when money is involved, it is a business relationship. When money is not involved, it is a friendly, personal, or purely casual relationship.

The who review thing is kinda a moot issue at this point anyways.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 09:25 PM   #25
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That was a pretty good read, TykeJack. I wholeheartedly agree that a TFCD shoot should (ideally) be conducted with the same level of professionalism and courtesy as a paid shoot. But the exchange of money is an easily defined demarcation between "business transaction" and "just for fun."

I guess I'm still a bit naive, in that I expect everyone to act like adults and, in general, just be nice. Most of my "real" photography clients are businesses, so it's rare to have a genuinely bad experience. Sometimes I don't get the rate that I want, or I have to do a reshoot on my own time/dime, or I just don't get the contract .. but that's just business. Everyone still acts like adults and we can work together again in the future.

I'm still new enough to the cosplay community that I haven't seen the seamy side that it seems some of you have: the sense of entitlement, or the emotional tantrums, or the unfounded accusations.

So, the issue still stands: There's no avenue for someone to warn others about a poor experience, especially sexual harassment or other egregious misconduct on the part of a photographer. The consensus seems to be "tell the con staff" and "warn your friends." Perhaps the risk of being publicly "outed" would encourage some overly-handsy GWCs to keep their paws to themselves.

The commission reviews section has some pretty specific guidelines on how to write a review, which could certainly be adapted for a photographer/session review.

Anyway, still just playing the other side of the argument. Not really expecting anything to change, nor a reviews thread/forum to actually be sanctioned by the cosplay.com staff. A nice review here and there would feed my ego, but I can build up references without it.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 09:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Access View Post
Tykejack I think of it this way, when money is involved, it is a business relationship. When money is not involved, it is a friendly, personal, or purely casual relationship.

The who review thing is kinda a moot issue at this point anyways.
You know, for the longest time I thought the saying was "mute point." Logically, it made sense because it could be interpreted as the point has no "voice" and is therefore not significant or worth pursuing. That was just one of my many "Rugrats" moments.

I will say that many businesses trade favors or services instead of money and it doesn't make them any less professional.
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Unread 11-28-2012, 01:35 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by nathancarter View Post
So, the issue still stands: There's no avenue for someone to warn others about a poor experience, especially sexual harassment or other egregious misconduct on the part of a photographer. The consensus seems to be "tell the con staff" and "warn your friends." Perhaps the risk of being publicly "outed" would encourage some overly-handsy GWCs to keep their paws to themselves.
Most people find photographers through word of mouth, that is: friends, friends of friends, people who friends can vouch for, and so on. Word gets around and this system works reasonably well already; people will honestly only choose to use the public reviews to find a photographer (or even pay for a photographer) in the absence of these things. It's still a special case of a special case. And purely theoretical but if you allowed reviews in this sense (shoots where money is not exchanged) then it just becomes a huge online popularity contest... who can get the most friends to post the most positive reviews not to mention shouting down anyone who says anything negative.

If TFCD (time for CD?) is between total strangers, you have to assume nothing and follow all the standard rules for meeting people from online. Several I know have had bad experiences with this type of thing... I honestly can't recommend it.

Last edited by Access : 11-28-2012 at 01:43 AM.
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Unread 11-28-2012, 02:03 AM   #28
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I've addressed threads like this before.
I won't cover old ground again.
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Unread 11-28-2012, 11:10 AM   #29
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I think that having a photographer review, especially for paid photoshoots is a great idea. It is a business transaction, and you should have the right to know if there are other people that have had problems with that person before. I also think that if you are paying the cosplayer, monetarily or otherwise, you should have the right to know if they are difficult to work with as well.

Is Cosplay.com the best place for it? Perhaps not, but I do think that when you are going to spend the money to work with someone that you do not know, you want to feel comfortable that you are going to be safe with that person, especially if you are going to be meeting at a Con. Since payment for photoshoots isn't allowed in most Con areas, you are likely to travel outside of the Con area to a less trafficked area to take the pictures so you want to feel safe.

In regards to word of mouth, people are now traveling farther to go to Cons, it's not just in your immediate circle. It's a lot harder to know if someone has a good reputation if they are on the other coast.

The word of mouth ties into the "tell the con staff" in that it's only a short term solution and unless you spend every waking moment telling everyone you know about the experience you had, it is likely to happen again some other time to someone else if you weren't just an isolated incident and there is no way to make the knowledge public in a lasting, searchable fashion.
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Unread 11-28-2012, 12:11 PM   #30
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unless you spend every waking moment telling everyone you know about the experience you had, it is likely to happen again some other time to
The basis of word-of-mouth is generally finding good people, not so much avoiding bad ones. With word of mouth you find people you know, friends of friends, people who friends can vouch for, and so on. If you rely on word of mouth, you are not going to do a photoshoot with someone that nobody knows, recognizes, or can vouch for in the first place.
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