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Unread 02-19-2013, 02:39 PM   #20056
jukebox
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^ what he said.

There is a level at which human beings all deserve a fundamental respect unless they've done something really horrible and harmful to revoke it.

But when you're talking about recognition for the effort someone has made on a project or costume, that's a different story.

At the end of the day, you will still look good and nobody in their right mind will harass you for commissioning or buying a costume. But if you expect the same level of recognition as people who can do their own work, you are the one being disrespectful IMO.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 03:22 PM   #20057
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Having the perfect piece of clothing for a cosplay...but in the wrong color.

One of my shirts would have worked PERFECTLY for fem Gilgamesh...if it wasn't orange.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 05:00 PM   #20058
Tak-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by double00beaver View Post
Agreeing completely with Cole. This is a hobby built around costuming and thus, your costume is the main focus. If you wore the exact same costume as someone else with the only difference being that yours is bought and theirs is handmade, they're going to get more respect. They put more time and effort into every single step in the costume making progress while you either bought yours as-is or had it commissioned. You had absolutely nothing to do with making the costume other than funding it.

If it seems unfair to you that someone who made a costume from nothing gets more respect than someone who bought theirs, then you'll just have to get over it, sorry. No one is going to look down on you for buying a costume, just don't expect people to treat you like you're utterly amazing for managing to find it online for sale.



You should probably rethink that stance because there is something glaringly wrong with it. Congratulations, you've gone to a convention five years in a row with a costume commissioned/bought. That's five years worth of wearing someone else's hard work. On the other hand another cosplayer comes to the same convention five years in a row, each time with a costume they made by themselves. Who's going to get more respect? They are. That's five years worth of hard work and dedication to making costumes compared to five years of spending the same amount of money on waiting for a package to arrive in the mail.
Thanks for the input, but I'm not going to be rethinking any of my stances, whether you think there's something glaringly wrong or not.

It's actually people like you that make me have this argument.
I'm sorry that when my genes were assigned (which I had no control over) I wasn't given any artistic or crafty genes. I'm sorry that my job and school ties up much of my time, so even if I did have a crafty gene, I wouldn't have the time to put it to use. I'm sorry that if I want to indulge in this hobby I have to get it commissioned or bust. But that isn't a reason for me to be looked down upon. "Congratulations, you've gone to a convention five years in a row with a costume you commissioned/bought". Gee, thanks for the extreme glaringly obvious sarcasm. Would you like me to add in an eye-roll on your behalf? Because that's the exact type of shit I get that makes this a peeve to begin with..
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Unread 02-19-2013, 05:36 PM   #20059
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I think people need to take in the fact that just because someone bought their costume DOES NOT mean that they didn't put in additional effort. Think about all the time some people might spend on their makeup. Think of all the people that have lost weight just so they can feel a bit more confident at the convention they are going to. Sometimes just earning money so you can buy the costume takes a lot of work too.

What I'm trying to say is sometimes it's not all about the costume. Cosplaying takes a lot more than that. Do I think that people who make their own things from scratch deserve a ton of praise? Of course. Do I think people who don't have those skills and buy their costume deserve less respect? No way.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 05:43 PM   #20060
LluviaSarcasm
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Wow, everyone went out of their way to say that buying is nothing to look down upon, and that every person deserves a base respect.

I think cosplaying in a way is acting, modelling and for some people crafting. (I say this as someone who sews and crafts, but also buys, so quite a few of my things are not self made.)
If you craft, you get some credit for that along with modelling and acting.
If you buy, you don't get credit for crafting, but still for the other two things. Simple. No looking down upon.
But if you also expect the same amount of credit as someone who put in more work and skill (be it at make up, wig styling, sewing, props...), whyever they could and you couldn't, it just gets silly.
It's like a fashion model expecting to get praised for the job of the seamstress and designer, instead of what they are really doing: presenting.

Why should I expect people to fawn over something I pulled out of my closet when they can also do the same with a bank account and some money in ten minutes?
They can still admire me for how it looks on me and how I look as the character though, obviously.

Remember: This has nothing to do with having base respect for another human being whatsoever. Being curteous is an obvious must in any case.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 06:22 PM   #20061
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LluviaSarcasm View Post
Wow, everyone went out of their way to say that buying is nothing to look down upon, and that every person deserves a base respect.

I think cosplaying in a way is acting, modelling and for some people crafting. (I say this as someone who sews and crafts, but also buys, so quite a few of my things are not self made.)
If you craft, you get some credit for that along with modelling and acting.
If you buy, you don't get credit for crafting, but still for the other two things. Simple. No looking down upon.
But if you also expect the same amount of credit as someone who put it more work and skill (be it at make up, wig styling, sewing, props...), whyever they could and you couldn't, it just gets silly.
It's like a fashion model expecting to get praised for the job of the seamstress and designer, instead of what they are really doing: presenting.

Why should I expect people to fawn over something I pulled out of my closet when they can also do the same with a bank account and some money in ten minutes?
They can still admire me for how it looks on me and how I look as the character though, obviously.

Remember: This has nothing to do with having base respect for another human being whatsoever. Being curteous is an obvious must in any case.

This is the conversation I had with another cosplayer at a Con I went to last year. For years I have wanted to get into cosplaying because it looked like so much fun to be able to be my favorite characters and show my appreciation for my favorite characters. However, the one big thing that scared me off was the fact that I can't even sew a button on and I never knew anyone who could teach me. I always heard these scary stories of cosplayers looking down on, being rude, ostracizing , etc. those who didn't make their own costumes. The thing that made me be positive about trying is that cosplayer, Riddle, encouraging me to go for it and ensuring me that it will be fun and the majority of cosplayers out there don't care about such things because there are a ton of others in the same boat as me (no time, no sewing skills, etc.)

I finally live closer to my mother-in-law, who said she would be willing to teach me later this year, but until then, I commissioned my first costume for an expo in September just in case I wouldn't have time to make it myself.

For me personally, I wouldn't feel right going to the different cons or posting my cosplay pics online without at least mentioning who made my costume. Like you said, I would like to at least get some appreciation for the work I put into the makeup, working out, hair, etc., but I always give credit where credit is due. I have even been thinking about making business cards with my name/web address on it with a mention of my costume maker and her contact info to pass out at the cons in case anyone wanted that info.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 09:37 PM   #20062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak-kun View Post
Thanks for the input, but I'm not going to be rethinking any of my stances, whether you think there's something glaringly wrong or not.

It's actually people like you that make me have this argument.
I'm sorry that when my genes were assigned (which I had no control over) I wasn't given any artistic or crafty genes. I'm sorry that my job and school ties up much of my time, so even if I did have a crafty gene, I wouldn't have the time to put it to use. I'm sorry that if I want to indulge in this hobby I have to get it commissioned or bust. But that isn't a reason for me to be looked down upon. "Congratulations, you've gone to a convention five years in a row with a costume you commissioned/bought". Gee, thanks for the extreme glaringly obvious sarcasm. Would you like me to add in an eye-roll on your behalf? Because that's the exact type of shit I get that makes this a peeve to begin with..

But no one is looking down on you? Not a single person has said that and my reply to you even outright said "No one is going to look down on you for buying a costume, just don't expect people to treat you like you're utterly amazing for managing to find it online for sale."

So what you can't sew and don't have time? I can barely sew and simply choose to buy my costumes because I know they'll look better. In the seven years I've been cosplaying at conventions no one has looked down on me for buying my costumes.

Basically no one is going to look down on you and the longer you try to go "Well I deserve as much respect as this person who made theirs!" just paints you in a negative light. Not getting as much respect as someone who makes their costume doesn't mean you'll be treated like dirt, which is what you seem to be thinking we're all saying.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 09:42 PM   #20063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tak-kun View Post
It's actually people like you that make me have this argument.
I'm sorry that when my genes were assigned (which I had no control over) I wasn't given any artistic or crafty genes. I'm sorry that my job and school ties up much of my time, so even if I did have a crafty gene, I wouldn't have the time to put it to use.
See, I find this rude. No one is born with an innate knowledge of sewing/crafting. Those of us who can have built those skills. Unless you have some kind of condition making your hands completely useless, you can develop those skills. My hands shake constantly. I can't draw anything even closely resembling a straight line. I can still make costumes without much hassle (unless, of course, it's some crazy OTT design). Saying "LOL IT'S JUST A CRAFTY GENE" dismisses the time and effort others have put into building skills, which is disrespectful.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 10:22 PM   #20064
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^Yeah, pretty much that. I find that I tend to pick up different crafting disciplines easily, but it takes work to get good at them. My first sewing projects kinda sucked, but I was able to look at those pieces and figure out how to do better next time, how to improve. I may actually possess a "crafty" gene, but it doesn't replace work and practice.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 10:27 PM   #20065
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Originally Posted by Shana05 View Post
Crap! I just missed a Simplicity pattern sale at Joann. I have several patterns I need to buy from them. Now, I have to wait for the next sale. Since I currently don't have classes on Mondays, I completely forgot it was President's Day.
I didn't need simplicity, but I just missed a sale at Joanns for something I desperately needed. It was half off on button things, and I needed an eyelet/grommet tool for a corset/dress I'm going to be working on. HALF OFF.

FML. Better find a coupon.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 10:36 PM   #20066
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I had no idea this would go on for so long. Kind of surprised.

Also, peeve: I found a perfect pair of pants in the depths of my closet that could be altered to be Sheik's pants-stuff, but I don't want to not be able to wear it anymore. I want two of those pants. One for me and one for Sheik. Needy bastard ninja-thing.
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Unread 02-19-2013, 11:06 PM   #20067
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Immature homestuckers. URGH! Stop ruining my convention experience!

Also, Hetalia flag-draggers....UUUUUURRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHH! You don't need that massive flag. Get a more portable one.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 12:19 AM   #20068
jukebox
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@ Unaki - Not to mention how phenomenally disrespectful it is to carry a flag around and not do it properly. :/

Also, as for the respect argument in terms of buying vs. making costumes: what on EARTH is a "crafty gene"? Seriously. I would love to see you say that to a student or expert in the field of biology and genetics and see how long they keep a straight face for. Sure, some people are more inclined to creativity in their genetic coding, but that bit of DNA is meaningless if the skill and interest are not also nurtured and developed by practice.

Cosplay is a pretty damned privileged hobby, so it does take a considerable financial investment to keep up with it, so I'm not entirely sure I buy the school of thought that someone whom buys or commissions might not have the means or opportunity to make their own stuff.

Some of the costumes I wear and make involve very little sewing from me. Some were things that I bought pre-made and modified, and some of my costumes were things I "designed" or visualized and ended up buying the necessary pieces in different times and places. I'm not going to take credit for other people's work, and if someone who's done more work than I have comes into the room, you bet your foot that I'll step aside and let them have their moment.

That, and if you have to compare yourself to others to illustrate a (false) notion of why you deserve the same level of recognition as someone who has objectively done more work than you, you're honestly going to sound miserable. Just be happy with how you look and don't walk into the room feeling more entitled to things than you actually are.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 03:21 AM   #20069
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..Well honestly, the phrase "respect" is rather vague in and of itself. Just what does respect as a cosplayer mean? In my opinion, comparing a person who sews their costumes to someone who commissions them is comparing apples and oranges.

As someone who commissions cosplays, do I deserve the same sort of recognition as someone who spent weeks, months, or possibly more on working and hand making their costume? Of course not.. Hopefully the only thing I'll get recognition for is looking good! (hah hah...just kidding, kinda) Does a person who spends endless hours in front of a sewing machine deserve praise and recognition for their hard work? Hell yes. They've EARNED it.

As someone who commisions cosplays, I'm perfectly happy with people saying I make a great insert character here, and asking for my picture. So what does respect mean to me?

It means not being insulted, it means not being told that I'm not a "real" cosplayer, it means people not scoffing or walking away in disdain when I mention that I got my costume from so and so. And that's all I ask for. You made your costume, I bought mine. You're an apple, I'm an orange. We're different, but we're both fruits. GLORIOUSLY NERDY FRUITS GALLIVANTING AROUND A HOTEL OR SUCH FOR 3 OR SO DAYS.


As far as the whole "crafty gene" thing goes. I think it's a matter of some people just get discouraged more easily than others. We're told that "Practice makes perfect!" "Anyone can do it!" "I learned by myself just messing around!" etc. However it's hard to focus on ourselves. Some people have a habit of always zeroing in on and comparing themselves to the person who "learns more quickly" or "catches on easier". It's like crying in frustration because after weeks of practice you still can't thread a sewing machine, or figure out patterns and your fellow cosplayer is already making a wedding dress. Okay, so wedding dress is an exaggeration, but you get the idea.

I once told someone that I found sewing to be hard and frustrating, and thus for my own sanity would rather avoid it. I get discouraged easily, I'm hard on myself, and I, despite being a full grown woman, have a tendency to break down in tears and curse myself over every mistake I make. Do I still have moments where I go "learning to sew might be fun!" of course. Do I believe that there's some sewing gene that I'm lacking and thus I could spend a life time trying and never even thread a needle? Of course not. However I -do- know how easily frustrated I get. I do know that I would most likely call myself stupid because I'm not catching on quickly enough. I do know that I would get worried about whether or not my instructor thought I was too slow, or being annoying for not getting something. But that's general fear and anxiety, not belief that I lack some crafty gene..! Or that I haven't been blessed by the sewing fairies.

...Damn fairies.
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Unread 02-20-2013, 06:44 AM   #20070
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When someone wants to commission from you, but won't make the effort to get in touch with you. I am a busy person, especially when it comes to sewing. Expecting -me- to chase -you- down is ridiculous. I do not need to make you anything. I'm not going to beg you to know what it is you want me to make. If you want it, put in the effort to get in contact with me.
I just file away their information and keep it around for up to a year, depending on where we are in the process. It's just a few bits of data on my hard drive. If they can't be bothered to contact me after the time has passed, I just delete the information and move on with my life. No need in obsessing over someone that's probably not serious about commissioning you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jukebox View Post
That, and if you have to compare yourself to others to illustrate a (false) notion of why you deserve the same level of recognition as someone who has objectively done more work than you, you're honestly going to sound miserable. Just be happy with how you look and don't walk into the room feeling more entitled to things than you actually are.
I think this is the crux of the problem right here: We are confusing "recognition" with "respect". I believe that buyers are "respected" just as much as makers. But makers are usually recognized more than buyers, and deservedly so. While anyone can save up $500 and buy an awesome costume, the ones that make their costumes have to do that and still put in hours of labor to make it. So those that make their cosplays often get recognized more than those that buy them.

Make sense?
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