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Unread 07-16-2007, 12:50 AM   #31
Q-Tron
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i've got the electronic part figured out in my head...once i get the parts that i need it will be a simple design.....
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Unread 07-16-2007, 01:11 AM   #32
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heres a buncha things to think about

cpu
pressure control system
shock absorbtion
water resistance
overheating
plating for grinding
bases
wheel composition more importantly its not the motor that will be affected but the energy source

all these play a part

personally instead of using a motor and adding weight I constructed my own diagram of how the wheel would function

all thanks to this little tamiya car

although I'd like to talk about Air Treks (mobile ones)
im kinda iffy about competition xD
but if interested drop me a pm and aim and we'll share ideas
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Unread 07-16-2007, 03:22 AM   #33
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Just got back from live free, die hard - AMAZING MOVIE - but don't let me derail:

Okay, I'm most definitely described as jack-of-all-trades master of none so bare with me (and I see I've missed...a lot o.o)

I'm definitely going to be working from concept forward, and then probably using a hobbiest fabrication shop to get the things I want made for me since the prices can usually be pretty reasonable.

I'll draw up some plans and upload the images in the next few days (and/or PM them to both/all of you) but as it stands the current -main- design (cause believe me I have more then one running around up there) has some of the following components / features:
  • In-Wheel, integrated motors:

    Brushed, super-torque, variable speed, reversible DC motor with double sided hollow (for wiring) axle (i.e. motor has powered bar coming out of both sides) obviously made out of something strong enough to bare the weight and design (steel / titanium maybe).

    The body of the motor is actually attached to the wheel which is formed out of a hard resin of some kind - and if I can manage it - contains red LCDs with control wiring piped through said axle so that the braking effect seen in the show can be achieved.

    The axles themselves would be secured to the hard suspension structure (hundreds of pounds tolerance - making it solid except during extreme conditions like large jumps / falls seen in the series) while the motor and attached wheel would spin, instead of the typical motor spinning an axle attached to a wheel.
  • Electronics and battery area

    A raised foot base along with an added Heel of about 1 inch (typical male dress shoes have about this) would provide a thin area to contain the following parts:
  1. printed circuitry so that all wiring is about as thick as a piece of laminated paper
  2. Thinner Lithium Ion Batteries on top of circuitry from heel to toe
  3. soft suspension in heel (creating the slight heel but adding comfort for typical bumps/curves/etc)
  4. pressure pad with heel (probably more integrated with the soft suspension since that would effect any attempt at a proper sensor in the heel) and ball variable sensors for speed control and a big toe 0/1 sensor for "options" control - integrated into the typical comfort pad
  • a hard press sensor in the outer front toe of the shoe would act as a hard off

    Normally you put them on and stand up and as is seen in the series, your weight brings them out of "sleep mode" and you begin going. By kicking the toe of the shoe against the ground once you turn off the motors and allow for normal human propulsion and the circuitry flips so that both the front and back motors charge the batteries.

    Another kick or 0 pressure on the pad for a certain amount of time resets them to normal
  • the side of the skate would obviously be where the indicator LCD would be located as is also seen in the series
  • maintain inline rear rubber brake in the design for when under human propulsion preferably in a way thats less obvious so as to maintain the Air Trek look
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Unread 07-16-2007, 03:25 AM   #34
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I do hope you decide to do the math on this project before generating the prototype. A bit of basic physics and electronics calculations are much cheaper than the parts and labor needed to build something like this. Prove it completely on paper instead of buying stuffz and testing it out. If it doesn't work, consider perhaps just building a nonpowered version of the air treks. It may be that their design is completely impractical in regards to control anyway.

I suspect you'll find that either the battery size becomes unreasonably large or the battery life becomes unreasonably short for what you intend to do.

I'm completely confident that there are dozens of patents on the books for motorized skates (skateboards, skooters, etc), and you'll find that none of them are terribly practical. Without some particular technological innovation, you are bound by the same laws as those before you. But full text searches of the US patent office exist back to 1973, so check it out.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 03:33 AM   #35
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Quote:
I'm completely confident that there are dozens of patents on the books for motorized skates (skateboards, skooters, etc), and you'll find that none of them are terribly practical. Without some particular technological innovation, you are bound by the same laws as those before you. But full text searches of the US patent office exist back to 1973, so check it out.
For this particular issue, I've done some searching (though not an extensive one just yet) and there in fact does exist said patents and working gas powered motorized skates exist on the market.

What is / would be unique is the way in which Air Treks are designed. So far as I can tell all current designs are built using external additions to typical inline skates. Between the unique, hands free control system, and the unique propulsion designs that any practical (so far as that word can be used) working Air Treks would use - I'm fairly confident that it would not infringe on any currently active patents.

Battery consumption is a concern though luckily micro technology has been producing smaller, more powerful batteries every year with the increasing demands that mobile electronics have been placing on the industry so i'm also not as worried about that. Further, by using one wheel for propulsion and the other as a DC generator the battery life is substantially extended in any design.

None the less - they are all great points, and like you said - working from paper up is always best.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 05:02 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SunSurfAndAnime View Post
What is / would be unique is the way in which Air Treks are designed. So far as I can tell all current designs are built using external additions to typical inline skates. Between the unique, hands free control system, and the unique propulsion designs that any practical (so far as that word can be used) working Air Treks would use - I'm fairly confident that it would not infringe on any currently active patents.
I wouldn't worry too much about patent infringement during early development of a product. I was mostly suggesting patent searches as a source of inspiration and education on what does and does not work. You really don't have to worry about patent infringement until you have a successfull product that people are willing to buy. To reach such a stage from scratch could easily take a decade.

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Originally Posted by SunSurfAndAnime View Post
Further, by using one wheel for propulsion and the other as a DC generator the battery life is substantially extended in any design.
I'm afraid Newton works against you on this idea. You're trying to produce free energy. A generator converts kinetic energy into electrical energy. But since that kinetic energy is generated from the battery in the first place, you merely sap power from the battery which is then lost in things like heat.

The best you can have is a generator linked to the breaking system, wherein instead of using frictional force to stop the moving body, you use the work of the generator to lower the kinetic energy, thus bringing you to a stop while charging the battery. This is exactly the principle innovation of hybrid vehicles.

However, adding bells and whistles like dynamo generators takes up space, which is your most precious commodity in this particular design challenge.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 05:18 AM   #37
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Well I definitely don't assume that I could create unlimited power, I just saw it as a way to reclaim some of the power and recycle it by using a brushed dc motor as a generator. As for braking, the current idea for the design has mechanical braking via the motor and so uses energy instead of reclaims it =/ obviously counterproductive.

With current technology within the look and feel of Air Treks, so far as electrical motors are concerned I highly doubt that something which can pull you up hill without any human propulsion is possible - but something that uses the inertia generated by a little forward movement and supplements it to increase you to much faster speeds - I think might be - though in the end the numbers will out.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 10:59 AM   #38
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^^ Well, according to the company Steorn and their Orbos product, they've figured out a way to create infinite energy. Unfortunately, their demo this month failed due to "overheating".

Also, there is a company that is also designing electric skates. It is still in production, but the picture says it should be finished "soon". I can't remember the exact company though...
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:00 AM   #39
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You both have good points about the generator, but I'm afraid that
SunSurfAndAnime came fully prepared. I'm aware that using a generator will not give us unlimited energy, but merely recycle some of it. Much energy in the motor is lost to thermal and sound energy, therefore not all of the energy can be fully recycled. The generator can only give the rider a little extra time to ride.

The main concern in the electronics department for me, is the motor overheating and causing the components to break easier/quicker. To solve this, i suggest putting a small, energy efficient cooling fan near the motors on both AT's. It basically does the same job as a processor fan, or a system fan in your computer.

I think I've basically got the electronic part worked out, though when working with the AT's I may need to do some tinkering.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:06 AM   #40
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As far as I can tell the electric skates that you are referring to are seen here.....Also, infinite energy, I don't believe is possible considering every single joule of energy (thermal, potential, sound, light, kinetic) would have to be recycled. As far as I'm concerned, infinite energy is just a hope and dream of many physicists.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:11 AM   #41
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sunsurfandanime: i would try making it simpler. yeah ts noce to have all that and they might work like the real AT's, but think about practicality and space. do you really need a fancy braking system or a sensor in the shoe or in wheel motors? it all sounds fine a dandy, but what about the final price and product?
and battery life is are main problem here. thats why i was thinking Li ion batteries cause they last longer so maybe we could get a decent life span out of them. i like sunsurfandanimes generator idea, but i dont know if it would be fully practical or just a nuisance. and yeah, i know im personally drawing it on paper and working it out before i go out and buy stuff. i dont want to buy stuff and not start the project again.
pooru:we dont need a cpu for this kind of project, if we keep it simple. with my plans its pretty much just a motor, battery, speed control, and switch. nothing fany like sensors in the shoe or anything. keeps it nice ans simple and cheap(er). and for the grinding, you could use regular fiberglass like on the boby. you dont need metal so that theres a lot of sparks flying and a risk of people getting hurt.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:18 AM   #42
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once i get the styrofoam today and carve a model of the frame, what i think i'll do is just cut a little more into the styrofoam then cover it with wonderflex. after that i'll paint it and have a final cover of some sort of resin...
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:21 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-Tron View Post
infinite energy is just a hope and dream of many physicists.
kindave like world peace to politicians.
oh, and im scrapping my design and redoing it. i didnt like the final outcome or how everything was placed inside the drawing (praise the lord i drew it) and i have a list started of possible supplies and should have that up by this afternoon, so ill pm yall with that when im done. remember though, this is just a list of what ill be using, not a definitive list of what yall have to use. fell free to pm me yalls list if you have them.
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:23 AM   #44
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dude i totally forgot to compile my list of parts...i'm gonna get started on that right now...thanks for reminding me dude!
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Unread 07-16-2007, 11:26 AM   #45
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no problem. mines almost done, now i just have to find prices to get a rough estimate of the price. and do you have any pics of agitos treks? im thinking about basing my design off of his, but i need a reference pic.
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