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Unread 06-05-2012, 10:36 AM   #45511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
What upset me was the attitude given about having the female lead, which they where quoted as saying it was 'up in the air' for quite a while now. Indicating that she or another woman had consideration as the main lead.

I am not upset that a strong male character is the lead in a video game, I am upset with the attitude the makers of the game have towards putting a woman lead in their game.

Trust me, if a woman has a good backstory and is powerful in her role then her appearance shouldn't matter. I've done a lengthy discussion on why I love Skullgirls and that the appearance of the women isn't nearly as important as their roles. But it's undeniable that female characters are often made lesser and put into lesser games as leads and purposefully made hypersexualized. Would Bayonetta have sold as well if she had looked like AC3: Liberation's lead?



Possibly not.
And that's what game makers ENCOURAGE. When you tell the world that a woman isn't worthy of being in the leading game, you're telling the world that only hypersexualized woman sell games.

The gaming market is sold to and made for straight males, it shouldn't even be an ISSUE to make a female the lead in your game and NOT make her hypersexualized. It shouldn't be surprising to have a strong woman leading your game and she's of mixed race. This shouldn't be shocking, new, or unique. But it is.

This is what I have a problem with, and when people as influential as the AC cast flat out tell you "women don't belong" that demonstrates perfectly the attitude of the gaming industry.

I shouldn't have to listen to people saying that girls only watch or talk about E3 because they want to act like 'super hot gamer nerd girls' to get male attention and approval. But I do.

It's just a stark reminder of the fuckery that's all.
So...wait.

Your complaint is that Ubisoft is making a compelling game with compelling characters and an interesting storyline for the Vita, and that's somehow sexist?

Or your complaint is that Ubisoft complained about putting a female protagonist in their front running franchise, then proceeded to put a female protagonist in their front running franchise. I'm lost here..

You could buy a Vita. I'm sure both Ubisoft and Sony would appreciate it.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 10:42 AM   #45512
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...I think you might be reading a bit too much into what they said. "Up in the air" suggests to me (as a games developer myself...sort of) that they considered a female character in much the same way they might have considered making the character a clone or time traveller (whether the PC is male or female is a design decision in the end, after all).

I think it's far more likely that they had a side game where they could create a character who's completely different from the series previous protagonists or developed a character who happened to be feel and decided she didn't fit in the game (for non-her-being-female reasons) and decided to avoid wasting a perfectly good one. Not that they created a female character and decided "OMG! This'll give our game cooties!".

After all, if they really didn't think a non-attractive female character (from a game they had yet to announce; the game's existence wasn't confirmed until less than 15 hours ago) wouldn't work, they'd just not use her, not "hide" her in a lesser title.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 10:42 AM   #45513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mesoian View Post
So...wait.

Your complaint is that Ubisoft is making a compelling game with compelling characters and an interesting storyline for the Vita, and that's somehow sexist?

Or your complaint is that Ubisoft complained about putting a female protagonist in their front running franchise, then proceeded to put a female protagonist in their front running franchise. I'm lost here..

You could buy a Vita. I'm sure both Ubisoft and Sony would appreciate it.
No...I am complaining that the very influential makers of a very popular franchise told the world that the reason their leading game for the year is not featuring a female protagonist is because women wouldn't 'fit' into history.

The complaint is that she was added to the side line as a test subject to see how a female lead would sell on a device that has no where near the influence or users as the Playstation, Xbox or even PC gaming. My complaint is that I shouldn't have to go out and buy a completely new device just to play a game with a leading female. But I stated that in my first commentary on how I felt about it; which you apparently neglected to read.

My issue was the reasoning behind the makers of the game not using their leading platforms to introduce a female protagonist; which was a bullshit excuse about how the revolution is 'mans history' and putting a woman into the game as a lead character 'wouldn't feel right'.

I am completely indifferent to the AC franchise; I've watched others play it and felt no draw to it but I have no manic hatred of it. My beef is with the game makers and their silly bullcrap.


@Bisected; I don't think it's unreasonable to be upset that they blantanly said a female character doesn't belong in the leading game for the only reasoning of her being a girl. I don't care about 'up in the air' nonsense, it was in response to the previous statement that she was made that she seemed to be made later then AC3 was put into production. It was to show that a female lead had been under consideration before hand.

Seriously guys. I don't know how better to say this.

My issue was that the game makers said a woman wouldn't feel right as the lead. My issue was that they said the revolution was a man's history. My issue was with what individuals said on the matter. Not that I hate AC3. Or something was 'up in the air'. I seriously cannot possibly explain this any clearer.

I am mad because a group of guys didn't want a girl in the game and said so. It's that simple.

If it had just been a case of "Here's a side story" and the game was available on ALL platforms; I wouldn't give a shit.

It's just that simple. Seriously guys.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 10:43 AM   #45514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
What upset me was the attitude given about having the female lead, which they where quoted as saying it was 'up in the air' for quite a while now. Indicating that she or another woman had consideration as the main lead.

I am not upset that a strong male character is the lead in a video game, I am upset with the attitude the makers of the game have towards putting a woman lead in their game.

Trust me, if a woman has a good backstory and is powerful in her role then her appearance shouldn't matter. I've done a lengthy discussion on why I love Skullgirls and that the appearance of the women isn't nearly as important as their roles. But it's undeniable that female characters are often made lesser and put into lesser games as leads and purposefully made hypersexualized. Would Bayonetta have sold as well if she had looked like AC3: Liberation's lead?

[IMG][/IMG]

Possibly not.
And that's what game makers ENCOURAGE. When you tell the world that a woman isn't worthy of being in the leading game, you're telling the world that only hypersexualized woman sell games.

The gaming market is sold to and made for straight males, it shouldn't even be an ISSUE to make a female the lead in your game and NOT make her hypersexualized. It shouldn't be surprising to have a strong woman leading your game and she's of mixed race. This shouldn't be shocking, new, or unique. But it is.

This is what I have a problem with, and when people as influential as the AC cast flat out tell you "women don't belong" that demonstrates perfectly the attitude of the gaming industry.

I shouldn't have to listen to people saying that girls only watch or talk about E3 because they want to act like 'super hot gamer nerd girls' to get male attention and approval. But I do.

It's just a stark reminder of the fuckery that's all.
1) Bayonetta sold okay. Well in Japan, but it got CRUSHED in America and Europe upon release. Stating that games like Bayo and Japan sold well because of sex when they barely sold is just flat out incorrect. Mass Effect, L4D, Portal, Dragon Age all have female leads, and all sold better. Hell even "Beyond Good and Evil" which tanked at retail was re-released in HD and saw better sales thanks to work of mouth. These games may not be doing Call of Duty numbers, but then again, not a lot of games ARE.

2) Do you have any LEGIT sources on these interviews? Because again, this all sounds like bullshit and misquotes from unreliable sources.

3) No one of value says only girls watch E3 for any form of approval. I don't see how that even fits into the discussion.

4) Again, I'm not saying games are in any way shape or form 100% equal for all genders and lifestyles. I'm saying you're probably upset over a no-story in regards to AC3, and that there are probably other games more deserving of your rage.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 10:51 AM   #45515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
No...I am complaining that the very influential makers of a very popular franchise told the world that the reason their leading game for the year is not featuring a female protagonist is because women wouldn't 'fit' into history.

The complaint is that she was added to the side line as a test subject to see how a female lead would sell on a device that has no where near the influence or users as the Playstation, Xbox or even PC gaming. My complaint is that I shouldn't have to go out and buy a completely new device just to play a game with a leading female. But I stated that in my first commentary on how I felt about it; which you apparently neglected to read.

My issue was the reasoning behind the makers of the game not using their leading platforms to introduce a female protagonist; which was a bullshit excuse about how the revolution is 'mans history' and putting a woman into the game as a lead character 'wouldn't feel right'.

I am completely indifferent to the AC franchise; I've watched others play it and felt no draw to it but I have no manic hatred of it. My beef is with the game makers and their silly bullcrap.
...you don't understand how game development works, do you?

Just with the status quo, I can assure you, AC3 has been indevelopment for the past 18 months at the very least. AC3 liberation has probably been in development for 10-12. The comment that was said was more than likely a mistranslation stemming from the ideals that a female protagonist wouldn't work in the Bostonian revolutionary war setting that they were planning for AC3 (because honestly, did you SEE Ubisoft's presser? Barely anyone on their PR team can speak english. It's gotten them in to massive trouble before, see the Dues Ex Presser from PAXEast). Obviously they can't think that because they then made a spinoff game STARRING A FEMALE CHARACTER!

If anything, the point of your ire should be Sony for mismanaging the Vita so commandingly over the course of the past 12 months. Had that platform done well up till now, this be seen as a crowning achievement. It's not Ubisoft's fault that they decided to make, what looks to be, a pretty itneresting game and put it on a less than interesting platform in order to make that platform more interesting. I can tell you right now, Sony paid out the butt for this exclusivity, because you're right, it makes no sense to put this on the VITA when you could have put it on the 3DS, had it look relatively the same, and had it sell more. IN FACT, I would not be surprised if this time next year, we'll see this game on the 3DS after it flops on the VITA (because it will, because everything flops on the VITA by default because sony silently killed that platform last night).

But to claim sexism because of their choice of platform? Do you understand how crazy that sounds? That's like saying Qwenith Paltrow is racist because she tweeted "Niggas in Paris is for real" when attending a party with the "Watch the throne" guys. IT'S THE NAME OF THE SONG!

Just.....wow. No.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 10:54 AM   #45516
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Originally Posted by Starwind824 View Post
1) Bayonetta sold okay. Well in Japan, but it got CRUSHED in America and Europe upon release. Stating that games like Bayo and Japan sold well because of sex when they barely sold is just flat out incorrect. Mass Effect, L4D, Portal, Dragon Age all have female leads, and all sold better. Hell even "Beyond Good and Evil" which tanked at retail was re-released in HD and saw better sales thanks to work of mouth. These games may not be doing Call of Duty numbers, but then again, not a lot of games ARE.

2) Do you have any LEGIT sources on these interviews? Because again, this all sounds like bullshit and misquotes from unreliable sources.

3) No one of value says only girls watch E3 for any form of approval. I don't see how that even fits into the discussion.

4) Again, I'm not saying games are in any way shape or form 100% equal for all genders and lifestyles. I'm saying you're probably upset over a no-story in regards to AC3, and that there are probably other games more deserving of your rage.

That comment about E3 and girls was suppose to be a joke that fell flat >> sorry.

Here's the gamespot link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/assassi...eloper-6368577

An article discussing the female character as a whole; with some information linking back to the UK gamespot site: http://www.themarysue.com/assassins-...e-protagonist/



But seriously guys, I am trying to be completely clear in why this bothered me and I don't know if I can better explain myself then I have been but it feels like the entire point behind my anger is being completely missed.




Mesoian:

I will explain this is in as few words as I possibly can.

The following quotes are what I am mad about:

"It's always up in the air," Hutchinson said. "I think lots of people want it, [but] in this period it's been a bit of a pain. The history of the American Revolution is the history of men."



"It felt like, if you had all these men in every scene and you're secretly, stealthily in crowds of dudes [as a female assassin], it starts to feel kind of wrong," he said. "People would stop believing it."



This is seriously as clear as I can possibly be and perhaps I should have been simpler in my discussion previously.


That's it. Seriously. THAT.IS.IT


If someone hadn't said something stupid like that, I wouldn't have thought twice.

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Unread 06-05-2012, 11:00 AM   #45517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
@Bisected; I don't think it's unreasonable to be upset that they blantanly said a female character doesn't belong in the leading game for the only reasoning of her being a girl. I don't care about 'up in the air' nonsense, it was in response to the previous statement that she was made that she seemed to be made later then AC3 was put into production. It was to show that a female lead had been under consideration before hand.

Seriously guys. I don't know how better to say this.

My issue was that the game makers said a woman wouldn't feel right as the lead. My issue was that they said the revolution was a man's history. My issue was with what individuals said on the matter. Not that I hate AC3. Or something was 'up in the air'. I seriously cannot possibly explain this any clearer.

I am mad because a group of guys didn't want a girl in the game and said so. It's that simple.

If it had just been a case of "Here's a side story" and the game was available on ALL platforms; I wouldn't give a shit.

It's just that simple. Seriously guys.
...but my point was that they didn't say that at all. They no more didn't want a female main character in their game than they didn't want a space marine main character.

Anyways, Nintendo conference time!

EDIT: In fact, looking at the quote, they made quite a good point; they didn't not want their character to be female, a female character wouldn't have worked in the story.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 11:01 AM   #45518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post

But seriously guys, I am trying to be completely clear in why this bothered me and I don't know if I can better explain myself then I have been but it feels like the entire point behind my anger is being completely missed.
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one, for this reason. When you look at the AC3 coverage and what's been written about it, they're going for big bombastic figures of american history. George Washington, Ben Franklin, Layefatte, etc etc etc. I don't know of any female revolutionary war heroes that existed where this game is taking place, which seems to be predominately Boston, or up the new england coast. The only female revolutionary war heroes that I know of, are from the south, most of them in Virginia. That being said, it doesn't make sense for a female to take the lead roll when the setting is in the American northeast in 1776. That being said, I can assure you there will still be plenty of strong female leads in AC3, just as there were in AC2, just as there were in AC1 (in DLC, that's a different matter)

Nintendo's Presser is starting. We will discuss this later.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 11:04 AM   #45519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
That comment about E3 and girls was suppose to be a joke that fell flat >> sorry.

Here's the gamespot link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/assassi...eloper-6368577

An article discussing the female character as a whole; with some information linking back to the UK gamespot site: http://www.themarysue.com/assassins-...e-protagonist/



But seriously guys, I am trying to be completely clear in why this bothered me and I don't know if I can better explain myself then I have been but it feels like the entire point behind my anger is being completely missed.




Mesoian:

I will explain this is in as few words as I possibly can.

The following quotes are what I am mad about:

"It's always up in the air," Hutchinson said. "I think lots of people want it, [but] in this period it's been a bit of a pain. The history of the American Revolution is the history of men."



"It felt like, if you had all these men in every scene and you're secretly, stealthily in crowds of dudes [as a female assassin], it starts to feel kind of wrong," he said. "People would stop believing it."



This is seriously as clear as I can possibly be and perhaps I should have been simpler in my discussion previously.


That's it. Seriously. THAT.IS.IT


If someone hadn't said something stupid like that, I wouldn't have thought twice.

"Assassin's Creed III female hero would be a 'pain,' says developer March 28, 2012 6:33AM PDT" <- what the article said

"It's always up in the air," Hutchinson said. "I think lots of people want it, [but] in this period it's been a bit of a pain. The history of the American Revolution is the history of men."

"There are a few people, like John Adams' wife, [Abigail]--they tried very hard in the [HBO series John Adams] to not make it look like a bunch of dudes, but it really is a bunch of dudes," he added.

The Assassin's Creed franchise has bent the books of history before, but Hutchinson admitted that doing so in Assassin's Creed III could be problematic.

"It felt like, if you had all these men in every scene and you're secretly, stealthily in crowds of dudes [as a female assassin], it starts to feel kind of wrong," he said. "People would stop believing it."
<- what was actually said.

While Ubi said some things that were slightly whack, Gamespot took it another direction. Also this article was written on March 28, when the Vita game wasn't announced yet. Ubi can always claimed it was trolling to mislead people and then make the E3 announcement more of the surprise. But again, I would place MOST of the blame on Gamespot than Ubisoft.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 11:08 AM   #45520
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Originally Posted by Mesoian View Post
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt on this one, for this reason. /snip/ I don't know of any female revolutionary war heroes /snip/

Perhaps my initial explanation was lacking in clarity. My anger was directed at the men working on the game who said some very stupid things. If they had simply not said them, and offered the Liberation game as a side story on all platforms; this wouldn't anger me. The game itself looks fine. The Liberation game looks promising. I have no beef with the games themselves or anything like that. It's purely on the statements made by the creators of the game reflecting on their poor choices on how to handle the side story game and featuring a lead female.


Also, here is a comprehensive list of women involved in the Revolutionary War, all from various states.



On a completely unrelated note, who else thinks Mac&Cheese is a good lunch? You're all in agreeance? GOOD.
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Unread 06-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #45521
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Nintendo Press conference:

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Unread 06-05-2012, 12:14 PM   #45522
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...well Nintendo's conference was a bit dull, but Pikmin 3 was all I needed to see!
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Unread 06-05-2012, 12:19 PM   #45523
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Lithium- PUT HOT DOGS IN IT
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Unread 06-05-2012, 12:21 PM   #45524
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My beef with Ubisoft right now isn't that they put in a female as a lead... it's that they put in a spin-off before the core game is even out. I feel they'll drill this one into the ground just as much, if not more, than they did with Ezio.


For life here? My daughter will become a third grader on Thursday. We're going to make sammiches and mint cookies that night, then me, her, and her dad are planning on having a little picnic on Friday. On Sunday, my grandparents are flying in from California to pick her up and then they'll leave Monday morning. She spends a month out in Cali with my family every summer, since we live so far away (Us: Chicago). Gives them a chance to see her and bond/spend time with her. While she's gone, I get to have yet ANOTHER MRI on my back to make sure the nerves aren't damaged from the first surgery (car accident = whiplash to C5-C6 = discectomy + spinal fusion. I'll be heading to California on June 27th and will get to have a family reunion. I have brothers coming in from SoCal and Missouri for this. Totally excited to get to see my family, but sad that I won't see my little girl for 2 weeks. She's going to have tons of fun though, since my parents are bringing my cousins with on their camping trip. (3 8 year olds in one tent. This will be hilarious.) I'm kind of nervous too about this reunion. I will have 4 of my brother under one roof.. and I'll be the only girl... ugh.

Edit: Omg, my husband just surprised me with an unexpected foot rub.. I love this man. Just had to share it with you all.

Lithium: Bacon and brats into it, noooow!
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Unread 06-05-2012, 12:28 PM   #45525
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Re: female protagonist in Assassin's Creed 3.
You're already a member of a secret order of assassins. So you've got a 'gina instead of a dong between your legs. That doesn't mean you can't dress in drag and pass yourself off as a man. I don't see how that would be any less believable than being a member of a secret order of assassins during the American Revolution anyway.
But that's just my two cents.
I didn't make the game. /shrug
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