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Unread 03-25-2012, 10:28 AM   #526
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Unread 03-25-2012, 11:48 AM   #527
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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
I could say the same about Islam as well, but its effects are much less far-reaching
Maybe not in our neck of the woods, but try telling that to Hindus in Pakistan or Coptic Christians in North Africa. :/
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Unread 03-25-2012, 12:10 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by Adorima View Post
Nice is a highly subjective adjective I realize. And it's not the most important thing out there, imo. I think showing your love for others is more important, and when you do people notice. It doesn't guarantee any reaction though. I just remember this one movie, I think it was Cruel Intentions, where one character said," He's nice? What does that even mean? Weak?"

I've rarely met some nice athiests, but then again, you probably haven't met that many nice Christians.
I think it's pretty clear in the image what was meant by 'nice', as the enormous bubble of stigma over Atheists being a group of aggressive turd buckets is a giant rain cloud over my head whenever religious discussion comes about. As soon as I say I am atheist most people respond with "I hate Atheists", including friends who say it as an offhanded comment.

I've met plenty of nice people from many religions, my Boyfriend is Christian and so is a good part of his family. He and I have been perfectly capable of religious discussion and debate without ever having it turn savage. I am capable of separating the extremists of a religion from the rest of the followers. Most people don't assume all Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church, just like most people can gather that not everyone who practices Islam is going to be some kind of brutal terrorist.

Regardless, my opinion of Christianity would not effect my choice to be Atheist.
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Unread 03-25-2012, 01:26 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by sam vimes View Post
Maybe not in our neck of the woods, but try telling that to Hindus in Pakistan or Coptic Christians in North Africa. :/
I should have been more specific. By less far-reaching, I meant number of countries with it being the majority religion/by population.
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Unread 03-25-2012, 07:56 PM   #530
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I'll address all of the following from my perspective as a practicing Catholic. I notice that you put Christianity under the umbrella of all dogmatic religions when in fact, it's more of a cult of the personality of Christ rather than set of rules to follow.

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Nice attempt there Adorima, but you can shut your mouth. Because no, you don't care about some "Non-God-fearing heathen".
Here, you've decided for me. I do care. I had acquaintances and friends who were Bhuddist or Athiest or Pagan. And I get rejected pretty often on the premise that I do not respect them - as soon as I mention I'm Christian/Catholic or reply to their complaints about my faith. They seem to get hostile and/or aloof towards my friendliness after that.

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There is no hard evidence that ANY religion is the right one and your "lord and savior",
It doesn't seem you've finished your thought there. I'm going to assume you meant to say that we can't know if Jesus is God or not because there's no hard evidence...

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
and people seem to like ignoring a religion's central point of "Be good, don't be a jerkwad in your life" because apparently how they GET that way, is more important than being that way regardless.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this," Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. ( that's on page 244, Under Article 19, and the subheading "Outside the Church there is no salvation.")


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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
And having gone to Catholic schools for eight years, there's been plenty of teachers I met who would flip a shit if you said you weren't Catholic, while also being a top student who had never once gotten in trouble and was nothing but nice. Doesn't matter that you're a good person, only matters that you're one of them...
Maybe they were just overly-sensitive, ignorant-about-some-things-and-you human beings, like me.

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And I'm also not interested in ANY dogmatic religion
Dogmatic, as in has a set of principles that must be followed to be a member? All religions have dogma. Or else it wouldn't be a religion, it wouldn't even be a club. It could include everyone and no one all at once.

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
that is prone, like any institution, to people using it to further their own agendas at the expense of followers
Followers who, as in respect to the Christian Church, died for their faith, not in a suicide bombing or in retaliation, but in slaughter (i.e. Rome, Vietnam, China, Japan, Sudan, Poland etc.) with nothing in return but the promise of eternity with Jesus.

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or claim to know what's best for EVERYONE,
I'd say that the 10 commandments are a good start.

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because apparently them living their life with no real-life experience, especially when it's a "No things with uteruses allowed" religion, makes them a total expert.
My local priest was married before. It's allowed, before you get ordained, but afterwards you're dedicating your life to serving many other people within your parish(es). It's not very practical, or conducive to married or religious life to have a nuclear family while you've vowed to put your church family first. There are nuns and religious sisters along with priests and brothers in the same congregation too.

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Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism, whatever.
What tenets do you follow, if you don't mind?

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Unfortunately, Christianity in particular is full of a lot of people who claim it's the reason for their very disagreeable and un-Christian agenda/sayings.
I'm guessing you mean the usual assessment of Christians being judgemental and excluding.

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Like the majority of the presidential candidates right now.
I'm gonna have to ask you to clarify yourself on the specific issue before I comment.

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I could say the same about Islam as well, but its effects are much less far-reaching (but case in point; the Taliban is not Muslim beliefs, just an illiterate bunch of warlords claiming religion to use as control)
I was thinking the same thing having some moderate Muslim relatives. But then I saw this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQS_Wy8MKvw

Also see: Wafa Sultan.

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Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
I think it's pretty clear in the image what was meant by 'nice', as the enormous bubble of stigma over Atheists being a group of aggressive turd buckets is a giant rain cloud over my head whenever religious discussion comes about. As soon as I say I am atheist most people respond with "I hate Atheists", including friends who say it as an offhanded comment.

I've met plenty of nice people from many religions, my Boyfriend is Christian and so is a good part of his family. He and I have been perfectly capable of religious discussion and debate without ever having it turn savage.
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I am capable of separating the extremists of a religion from the rest of the followers. Most people don't assume all Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church, just like most people can gather that not everyone who practices Islam is going to be some kind of brutal terrorist.

Regardless, my opinion of Christianity would not effect my choice to be Atheist.
That's really good. Unfortunately, I think the camaraderie between Christians and Athiests is in the minority.
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Unread 03-25-2012, 09:42 PM   #531
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That's really good. Unfortunately, I think the camaraderie between Christians and Athiests is in the minority.
Unfortunately it seem's more often then not we base our assumptions off the radicals in a group because it's easier for us to see someone different as being 'bad' then to consider someone else may be happy living a life totally alien to ours. At times we may feel challenged by the idea that someone doesn't need or want what the same lifestyle. Deciding "Oh all Christians are like the people who protest at soldiers funerals" or "All Atheists hate Christians" is simpler to assume everyone else is bad then for us to feel somehow challenged.

I am going to stick my neck out there and say I believe what ShinobiXikyu was hurt or offended by in your previous statement (In the other forum) was that it came across that you where pushing the belief in Jesus as being 'better or right' over her own belief, and condemning her as Pagan by suggesting she didn't have a 'hope to get into heaven'. (I am not saying that either of your beliefs are more or less then the other) Which regardless of if she believes in the same afterlife as you do, the suggestion that she is not 'good enough' in some way to be accepted into the final resting place of the good folks of the world is an extremely hurtful and unnecessary statement.

I doubt that your intention was to belittle her and her religious choices, but the previous statement did come across as unkind.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 05:53 AM   #532
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That's really good. Unfortunately, I think the camaraderie between Christians and Athiests is in the minority.
...I best go and let all my atheist and Christian friends know that they aren't supposed to be getting along then.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 06:42 AM   #533
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All I know is that no agnostic/atheist has ever blown himself, and others up, while yelling "I can't say whether a God exists or not." I see religion as just one more way humans divide themselves.

Family Guy "religion in a nutshell" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6axdZAxyt2g
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Unread 03-26-2012, 07:14 AM   #534
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People who think posting Family Guy clips is a viable arugment in a discusion about religion... *sigh*
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Unread 03-26-2012, 07:43 AM   #535
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I don't think it's an argument, I just think its funny.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:18 AM   #536
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Intense thread.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 08:40 AM   #537
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I hate Family Guy and don't think it is funny at all. How's that for intense?
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Unread 03-26-2012, 09:29 AM   #538
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We're truely staring into the abyss here...

I thought the stupidest thing I've ever seen Family Guy do in terms of religion is where Brian convinces Meg not to be a christian because how can there be a god when she is so ugly and her mom is so hot...
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Unread 03-26-2012, 09:35 AM   #539
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A lot of media regarding atheists seems to simultaneously re-enforce negative stereotypes even when it's supposed to be positive.

It's like reading a Chick tract with atheism instead of Christianity.
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Unread 03-26-2012, 09:55 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
Unfortunately it seem's more often then not we base our assumptions off the radicals in a group because it's easier for us to see someone different as being 'bad' then to consider someone else may be happy living a life totally alien to ours.
My mom once told me that the test for knowing when you're doing the right thing for you is when you're at peace, and have joy (not the same as visceral happiness, which is comes and goes) with your decisions about how to live your life. She's also the one who passed down the Faith to her children along with my Pa.

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Originally Posted by Lithium Flower View Post
At times we may feel challenged by the idea that someone doesn't need or want what the same lifestyle. Deciding "Oh all Christians are like the people who protest at soldiers funerals" or "All Atheists hate Christians" is simpler to assume everyone else is bad then for us to feel somehow challenged.
I felt challenged, when I was an unhappy teenager and was forcing myself to attend Mass and pray in front of my family when I actually didn't care at all, and in fact hated the Catholic Church and to a certain extent, even Jesus. It was when I was 16, that I actually said the words," I reject you Jesus, you bring me nothing but a cross." I thought that I was going to hell because I wasn't who they wanted me to be - I didn't love Jesus perfectly, in fact, I thought He was quite the dictatorial tyrant, telling me what to do in order to be happy, how to live my life in order to be "saved from myself", and even if I follow that to the best of my not-good-enough abilities, He reserves the right to send me to Hell. All these people who "served" Him and the parish, including the preist, were just in it for the prestige (I knew they're not rich). They didn't show me God's "love," I thought. How could they, when they didn't even talk to me?! And when they did, they did it because I made an appointment where they deflected and cookie-cutter answered, my questions the faith they so adamantly profess. So knowing how undesired and alone I was, both at school and in this "family of believers", I decided to leave the church. Nothing my parents said ever made me want to come back. Not until a few years later did I finally find out that Jesus never expected this of me: to never doubt. All He wanted was for me to seek him out when I did doubt, and always, and to stop relying on my good works to love him. Because all He needed was my consent to let Him change me.

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I doubt that your intention was to belittle her and her religious choices, but the previous statement did come across as unkind.
Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt and your correction. You're right, it wasn't my intention to belittle her. I like people, and I hope that I can at least have some level of respect with as many as possible. But that requires some understanding of them. Something I'd like to have.

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I am going to stick my neck out there and say I believe what ShinobiXikyu was hurt or offended by in your previous statement (In the other forum) was that it came across that you where pushing the belief in Jesus as being 'better or right' over her own belief, and condemning her as Pagan by suggesting she didn't have a 'hope to get into heaven'. (I am not saying that either of your beliefs are more or less then the other) Which regardless of if she believes in the same afterlife as you do, the suggestion that she is not 'good enough' in some way to be accepted into the final resting place of the good folks of the world is an extremely hurtful and unnecessary statement.
I have too much confidence in my writing abilities. I'll do a repost of the entire thing so we have it readily available to refer to.

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
Where in my entire post history does it actually say I "hate religion", especially considering I follow one? And likewise with me saying I apparently hate Christianity.
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I forgot that you follow a pagan religion. But you don't have a passionate dislike for Jesus Christ being your Lord and savoir, and that without his mercy you have no hope for heaven? I must have misread the atmosphere here.
That was intended to be a rhetorical question and a doctrine of every Christian denomination. But let me be clear: God's mercy isn't limited to any one church, religion or any one person. It's a reality readily available to all. That's what I believe, and it's based in biblical and Church teachings. Some have it ingrained in their minds that salvation is only for those of us who earn it. That's a common error even Christians make in their daily faith journey, 'cause we can hardly believe that Jesus would perpetually and perfectly love someone whose not perfect, something every practicing Christian acknowledges that they are themselves - a sinner.

It's a rhetorical question, because I assume that ShinobiXkyu doesn't believe the above, and I'm asking her for confirmation.
Also, I'm glad that you stepped in to mediate because I think it's helpful.

ShinobiXkyu, I apologize if I offended you. Please don't take any of my remarks as something hateful or unkind, and I will try to be more careful next time with my temper because in all honesty, your wedding posts did make me angry and it probably showed through my postings.


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...I best go and let all my atheist and Christian friends know that they aren't supposed to be getting along then.
No, really. I really appreciate that your friends and Lithiumflower an example of bridging the stereotypical gap between Christians and Athiests. I know a good, very intellectual and very faithful preist/psychologist, Fr. Benedict Groeschel C.F.R (Franciscan Friars of the Renewal) from EWTN who has Atheist friends who are also very intelectual, not to mention many Jewish friends, because he's from that part of New Jersey.

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Originally Posted by pinoycosplay View Post
All I know is that no agnostic/atheist has ever blown himself, and others up, while yelling "I can't say whether a God exists or not." I see religion as just one more way humans divide themselves.

Family Guy "religion in a nutshell" - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6axdZAxyt2g
See http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/arti...3&journalID=13


Here's "The Post."

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
Oh, how people seem to think that putting in "just saying" makes them NOT insulting.
I can seem insulting.

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
Where in my entire post history does it actually say I "hate religion", especially considering I follow one? And likewise with me saying I apparently hate Christianity.
I forgot that you follow a pagan religion. But you don't have a passionate dislike for Jesus Christ being your Lord and savoir, and that without his mercy you have no hope for heaven? I must have misread the atmosphere here.

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
I only said I didn't approve of it being a Catholic wedding, and for the reason that A- The bride isn't Catholic and considering how huge the groom's side was, it looked to me like she was pressured to have a Catholic wedding,
I don't know the bride who's your relative and I don't know her reasons for marrying. But big Catholic (assuming all of them are) families = pressure to have a Catholic wedding? Maybe she did it because she respects his faith, or "God forbid", wants to investigate the faith?

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
and B- Being an anti-natalist and feminist, hearing women referred to in a wedding ceremony as child-bearing servant machines ONLY and not as actual PEOPLE who are capable of making their own decisions is pretty damn infuriating.
I'm afraid I've been to a few Catholic weddings myself, and I don't find myself thinking that they can't make their own decisions because the two want to have sex to have children in their verbage. You're gonna have to fill me in on what part of the wedding vows you found particularly oppressive.

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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
I've been to plenty of other weddings that didn't come across like that. And I went because I was invited like the rest of the family
My Uncle who is Chinese got married into the family, and he never converted as of yet. There was an agreement between him and my aunt, and with his full volition, that their children be brought up Catholic. That's it. He didn't have to convert. Although he does attend church - of his own volition as well.


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Originally Posted by ShinobiXikyu View Post
and wanted to, yannow, be POLITE and wish them good luck. Especially because there weren't very many of us to invite and numerous more people didn't come.
Well that was very kind of you. That's to bad that not many people from the bride's side of the family came. It's also too bad that you had to bear it, and not enjoy the ceremony.

And my fellow cosplayer, I don't mean to be mean. There's no nice way to say some things without beating around the bush. Especially over the internet. Although, it's not the epitome of virtue to be nice. For example, I know that you cuss a lot, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're doing it towards the person you're talking to, or that you're angry. Knowing the internet, I can't make any judgements about your motivations unless you tell me point blank or I actually know your real life habitual behavior. So, even though this is an "agree to disagree" topic, I'm actually interested and care about what you think about the Catholic faith, because as far as I'm concerned it's Jesus' Church, and I don't want misunderstandings and stereotypes to prevail, as much as it can be helped. Please forgive me for misunderstanding you too.
Thanks for talking to me guys! I don't get to meet many people with opinions like yours in real life too often!
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