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[errido]

I accidently ran into this well know cosplay photographer again, and it kind of reminds me of one thing about her.

She was doing very well on dA (and by that I mean a lot of "fan", as I used to be one of them). And one picture she post was a girl with lolita dress who was around the convention center (not in the center). That girl was walking towards her and apparently lost in her thoughts that she did not know someone was photographing her. This photographer neither credited that girl in description or asked for a permission to take the picture. She explained it by saying it was at convention and cosplayers are expected to be photographed, and a photographer doesn't need to ask for permissions. As a fan or her I didn't expect her to say that. So I am kind of wondering if you have a different opinion. I mean, as a well known photographer that she is, if she ask for permission, it certainly will be approved. And if she wanted to capture the moment, she could have asked for a permission.

She once revealed that she is a lawyer, so it probably isn't illegal (not that I'm concerned about legality). I just thought it wasn't the right thing to do......

And I know most of you are not just cosplay but art photographers as well. When you see someone interesting, inspiring would you take a picture of it? What about permission?

[TykeJack]

In my opinion, asking permission in a public space is simply a courtesy and nothing more.

[wasabiprodution]

^agreed...

[Araakii]

It's perfectly legal to take photos without asking for permission. But yes, it's a courtesy to do so and it makes the experience more personal and pleasant (at least for me).

[brucer007]

I usually ask first, but sometimes, if I ask for a photo, I might miss the moment. In that situation, I take the photo. Then I might show it to them, depending on the situation.

I was at a cosplay convention at a huge shopping mall yesterday, in Manila, Philippines. There were so many people in costumes and so many spectators and shoppers, that there was too much going on to ask each person for a photo without it becoming impractical. So many photos are being taken, the cosplayers don't often ask for a copy. In the past, I usually handed out my business card, but I was limited on them for this event.

I saw one girl posing for several photographers, so I joined in and took a photo. Then I asked her to spin for a photo. That was one form of asking.

[errido]

I agree to what all of you have said, but I think we are talking about somewhat a different situation...........
I have nothing against her; I'm just curious about this attitude and want to have a discussion with all of you here.

She seemed to be totally unaware of what is going on, and I suppose she wasn't in character at the moment. I'm not sure if this is even cosplay anymore but that's beside the point.

Let me make this a little more extreme to clarify my point. Say what if you are an actor who has finished the morning's shooting and is out for a break. You are tired and sweaty and your makeup all smeared; you just want a moment of rest. On your way to your destination you ignored a sound of shutter. Later you found out that someone took a picture of you and post it online. Some people commented "oh, she's still so pretty" and some people might say "oh, why is she in a messy state?"

This extreme example doesn't really match the situation, but it should have made my point. When I'm not in character, it is just as bad as sweaty shirt, smeared makeup, and exhausted face. Of course when I attend a convention I'm not in character all the time, I will have my "Milzarr" moments. But once someone ask to take a picture of me, I will become that character again. When photographers ask to take a picture of the cosplayer, they don't say "oh, don't pose, just be yourself". Why? do you like it better when I fail at cosplay?

The moment I'm not the character, taking picture of me becomes personal. You might find it cute when you see someone in lolita dress is angry, but your subject might not feel that way. What if she's crying? Does it ever cross the photographer's mind that this person does not wish to be seen? Why couldn't you come up to me and see if I like it or not?

And again, I'm not against of this photographer, and I'm not talking about this case specifically, just this action in general.

I'm very serious about cosplay, as well as the photography of it, and perhaps too serious. Please feel free to point out where my opinion might be flawed as I'm trying to understand everything in this world.

(I also get depressed when I see people asking "who should I cosplay?" and when people reply "you should cosplay as xxx because you will look good" even though that person might not like that character, or even know the character at all)

@Brucer007
And I'm very jealous of you for it seems like you go to a lot of conventions to take good pictures. I'll be attending Zenkaikon in May (actually one day before my birthday); it is 14 months from my very first convention

[Neko-hime]

Personally, I always ask before taking a person's picture, and I want to always be asked before having my picture taken!

There are a few exceptions-- large groups, for instance. I don't mind if I'm in a large group and someone snaps a picture without asking; it would take a long time to ask permission from everyone in the shot.
However, if I'm just walking by myself and someone takes a picture of me, I get a little mad. Mainly because I make the most STUUPID faces when I'm not expecting a photo. xD I carry lots of stuff around, too, and I prefer to be able to hand it all off to mother/brother and make sure my costume looks its best.

One of the only reasons I could think you wouldn't ask first, for an individual shot, is maybe the fear of them declining. But really, they must have a good reason! If you don't want them to try to pose, spend a few moments guiding them into what they were doing when you noticed them.

It's just not very nice to take photos when the subject is unaware-- this is coming from both a cosplayer and a photographer!

[errido]

Originally Posted by Neko-hime

Personally, I always ask before taking a person's picture, and I want to always be asked before having my picture taken!

There are a few exceptions-- large groups, for instance. I don't mind if I'm in a large group and someone snaps a picture without asking; it would take a long time to ask permission from everyone in the shot.
However, if I'm just walking by myself and someone takes a picture of me, I get a little mad. Mainly because I make the most STUUPID faces when I'm not expecting a photo. xD I carry lots of stuff around, too, and I prefer to be able to hand it all off to mother/brother and make sure my costume looks its best.

One of the only reasons I could think you wouldn't ask first, for an individual shot, is maybe the fear of them declining. But really, they must have a good reason! If you don't want them to try to pose, spend a few moments guiding them into what they were doing when you noticed them.

It's just not very nice to take photos when the subject is unaware-- this is coming from both a cosplayer and a photographer!

Very true, exactly what I'm thinking.
I guess it is not wrong. It is just not good :C

And yes, I don't want to be pictured in costume with a big backpack on me, my D7000 hanging on my neck, as well as a monopod on my hand. It surely would be one of the worst picture of me :P

And I don't like being flashed either. It makes me look more like a vampire with all the makeup on. I wonder if I can ask the photographer to turn built-in flash off after I accepted the request......

[wasabiprodution]

I had to teach myself to ask before taking shots at conventions since I'm programmed to take shots of celebrities without a second thought (paparazzo is my job) but now I tend to ask more often.

[Access]

Really there are two seperate things here, the act of taking the photo, and the act of posting it online or posting it to the public.

It varies from country to country, but generally taking a photo from public space, as long as it is not indecent (like a perv who puts a camera on their shoes and tries to take a photo up a girl's skirt) is almost never illegal, though it can be impolite.

Posting a photo deals with a different set of laws and conventions; and even editing is important here. As most photographers have no desire to post a shot that would portray a subject in a negative light, and they will take a photo down when asked by a subject; there's generally no problems here. In fact it's often the other way around. I've seen and been told of plenty of cases at conventions where people were asked for photos, hundreds of times yet still had problems finding photos online after the convention.

I will always try to ask, but some flexibility is important here as there are cases where it's not possible. Like if a person is 'performing' in some way, permission is often simply assumed (as asking right them would be the impolite thing to do).

[TykeJack]

@errido - I doubt there is much confusion and I'm certainly not confused. A photographer asking permission before taking a photo is just courtesy. I well understood your example from your initial post and when you explained it again it didn't change anything about the nature of the dilemma. Normally extreme examples are a valid form of debate and are suppose to challenge the logical stance of the one you propose it to. Whether the actress is sweaty, tired, angry, crying, in a box, eating green eggs and ham with a fox, it is not the obligation of a photographer to ask permission for a photo.

If you really are trying to understand the logical reasoning behind this then think of it this way. Photography is an art form, yes? Yes. A photo is a work of art, yes? Yes. In any work of art there is a subject, yes? Yes. Subjects can range from a tree or mountain range for a landscape photographer, to a bowl of apples for a still life photographer, to spiders for a macro photographer, yes? Yes. Would it be prudent to ask a spider for its picture, or an apple for its picture, or a tree for its picture? Probably not. For this same reason it is not necessary for a photographer to ask a person. They are all just subjects of whatever it is the artist is trying to express.

Art is a form of expression. I think it's preposterous to think that when an artist feels inspired to capture their vision of a moment and want to share it with others, that they should have to ask for permission first. Asking for permission to share your views with others? I know many cultures are different with their values and beliefs, but if you feel we should all be treated as equals and as such have different views and ideas, then this concept should not seem difficult to you.

The problem is that many people don't appreciate photographers. Instead of looking at a photo as a form of expression, they just see the cosplayer and not the photograph. In the picture you posted I couldn't care less about the person in the photo or what her costume looks like. What I do care about is what I perceive to be the intent of the photographer. Look at her, how's she seems lost in a crowd of people. People wearing normal street clothes while she's in this outlandish pink outfit. She's alone and the slight frown on her face reinforces her loneliness a midst a sea of people. Her porcelain appearance is also representative of eternity, implying she'll feel this way for a long time. Look at her glance, how it is upward and searching, while everyone else around her is preoccupied with their own devices and cell phones. This too reinforces the idea of loneliness. Now whether this was her intention or not is irrelevant because that's how I connected with the piece. Art is the expression of and exploration of emotion and there is no reason she should have to ask permission to share this expression with me. What really makes me sad is hearing that people saw this and the only thing they could think of was whether or not she got permission.

[Araakii]

Originally Posted by TykeJack

The problem is that many people don't appreciate photographers. Instead of looking at a photo as a form of expression, they just see the cosplayer and not the photograph.

Well there are many possible explanations for this. First, photography totally exploded in the last couple decades and you just can't really appreciate anyone who lugs a DSLR in front of his/her chest since your mom who knows nothing about photography might have one.

Second, anyone nowadays can take a good photo by chance and a lot of photographers are willing to share their work for free so there's not much (financial) value in a photo or a photographer anymore. It has essentially become a fast food culture and very few people would take fast food seriously.

Third, there are many times when there's nothing really to see in a photograph and the photographer who took the photo had no purpose or intent whatsoever but somehow there's always a critic who can write an entire article about it, explaining every little detail like everything was there by design when it was merely a random chance. In paintings or drawings, obviously everything was put down by the artist with a purpose. Not so much in photography, especially today when so many people take 6 or 7 shots in sequence and just pick the one that looks best after capture.

[errido]

@ThkeJack
I agree to what you have said, and when looking at a good picture I always can tell who puts in how much effort Into the art of photograph. However, I think you missed my point. I was trying to say art should not be built upon someone else's pain. Yes sweat and anger can be art, but what about the person who is sweaty and angry? And this person is not any person, she is a cosplayer and if she's a good one she wants to be photographed when she's prepared.
Admiring the art in emotions of human, wanting to capture the moment and keep it to one's self is different from seeing the art in pain and want to show everyone, ignoring the subject's feeling.
Yes it is a show of a photographer's care to the subject's feeling by asking for permission before taking the picture. Some people may not care about others, but bluntly saying it shows that the person doesn't know it's wrong. This is what I'm serious about.

[errido]

@Araakii
I think there are still a lot of good photographers out there. I haven't encounter too many yet. And I do not consider anyone who can press the shutter a photographer. I very agree with you on the third point you mentioned, and I have seen countless examples. People sometimes have one image that really capture your eyes, but when you go to the gallery and see all the other disappointly mediocre pictures, you understand that the person behind that one amazing picture does not appreciate its true value. In that case, the picture somewhat looses its preciousness. Although this photographer only said in the description that she took it because it was cute, I can't say that she doesn't see the other meaningful things in it. Although, she titled it "Angry Birdy" instead of "Eternity" or "Loneliness".
She did do some pretty cosplay photographs though, by that I mean beauty on the surface but nothing meaningful inside. Not many of her works have shown the feelings of the character or tell a story behind.
But of course who am I to comment C:

[Hcoregamer00]

For street photography, which is what I do in Hollywood or Las Vegas, I don't ask for permission. As a courtesy, I do introduce myself and give business cards afterwards so I don't look like a creeper.

For anime or comic convention photography, I ask every single time. I feel that it is rude to take pictures without permission in a convention venue. I also prefer photos of them "in character" so that the photo would look a little nicer. I would only do shots without permission only if I am a close personal friend of the cosplayer, and that is normally when I hang out with them during con.