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Unread 04-17-2012, 01:10 AM   #31
brucer007
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The taking of the photo, in most cases is does not effect the person in the photo as much as posting it online could ( I know some cultures consider the mere act of being photographed as having part of their sole taken away).

I get that you are trying to stand up for and protect the the rights of cosplayers, but it could be looked at as hypocritical for you to post the image in question here in this forum, since I assume you did not get permission from the woman in the photo to post her photo.

It might also be considered taboo to post a photographer's photograph somewhere else without permission.

This happened to me in these forums. Someone posted a photo I took of a female cosplayer, because they assumed I got a sneaky "panty shot". Even if they were correct, (especially if they were correct) I found it hypocritical for that person to have posted that image in a forum for even more people to see... Fortunately, for the cosplayer and myself, the photo was taken with the cosplayer's permission, and I showed her all the photos with the option to delete any she did not like. She approved all of them. Her Kasumi cosplay had bikini bottoms that got more exposed during a twirl, not panties, which was consistent with the anime character. For me, it was merely her costume moving during the heat of sword battle.

Last edited by brucer007 : 04-17-2012 at 08:38 AM.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 02:57 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by errido View Post
Something else that made your example different from the example of this girl is that the girl is obviously the subject of the picture. Without her the contradicting atmosphere will be absent and this photo will no longer be extraordinary.
Even if she's not cosplaying, she established the main theme of the picture and the photographer should have asked the girl for permission.
I did not say she was some abstract part of the photo. I said the composition of the photo in its entirety makes this an interesting shot. If she had sat on a stool with a white background it probably wouldn't have had the same effect.


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What is also different is that the posting of the picture might have a negative impact on her. Knowing the angry picture of her is posted online available to millions might really embarrass her. What if she stole this dress from someone? (this is veeeery likely to be not true). You cannot deny that you don't know what is happening on her without asking.
OR she could also be very flattered and love the picture. We could conjecture about her mood, feelings, perception, and thoughts but neither you or I know what is going on in this picture. Personally, I think she's just putting her phone away and her expression doesn't mean anything. That's what makes this picture unique. It's like Mona Lisa's smile.

Quote:
Let me put it another way:
So what if you are a photographer at a party and you see a well dressed man picking his nose (I really want to photograph this if possible__ノ乙(、'ノ、)_).
A unique image opportunity presented itself.
A photographer had to decide whether to capture it or lose it forever.
The photographer captured it.
The photographer could have asked for a permission after the picture is taken but declared not to.
The photographer posted it.
This picture could have a negative impact on the subject
Yes, this is correct. However, this example implies the photographer is knowingly taking a malicious picture. The picture of the girl is candid and as far as I can see there is no malicious intent by the photographer.


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What would happen if the photographer asked that girl for a permission?
She would say either yes or no. It's that simple. If she says yes, that's good. But what if she says no? Does anyone ever think of the possibility that she might say no? And that there is a reason behind the answer?
The photographer could have asked but she chose not to. It's well within the photographer's rights to make that decision in the public domain regardless of how I or anyone else feels about it. The photographer will assume responsibility for his or her actions.

For the record, I understand your position that you do not like this picture and you feel the photographer should have ask the subject for permission. You especially don't like that she posted it on DA without consent. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it which is neither right or wrong. The photographer has a different opinion and she is entitled to it as well.

Last edited by Surfsama : 04-17-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 04:05 AM   #33
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Street photography has existed since photography got portable enough to make it possible.
The photographer is right, as long as the image is not degrading and taken in a public place (on the street or during a public event, which a convention is), you have the right to publish candids without the person's authorization. Otherwise it would be very hard for journalists to do their job.
Do I do street photography ? No, I don't. But it is a perfectly valid, and legal, type of photography. It is also, I think, a good tool to document everyday life at a given time period, or show the general mood of an event.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 04:44 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
Nope, not in public areas of the USA anyway. I think what you really mean to say is that if a cosplayer doesn't want his/her photo taken then photographers have to give up their rights to appease the cosplayer. Essentially you want to treat photographers as second class citizens and say that their freedoms are less important than a cosplayer's. I believe both are equal. You don't hear me saying that if a photographer wants a picture of a cosplayer then the cosplayer HAS to pose for them. This would be the opposite equivalent to your argument which is forcing someone to do something or forcing them not to do something.

A phtographer taking a picture isn't forcing anyone to do anything. You trying to prevent a photographer from shooting is forcing them not to shoot. I recently used this in another post, but by your understanding, the person who taped the Rodney King beating was being rude because he/she should have gotten permission first from all of the officers and Mr. King for recording. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0w-SP7iuM6k In my opinion, that is just ridiculous.
No, I believe that they have equal rights. Even though it is not illegal to take pictures of someone, it is still taking freedom from that person. Freedom is weighted equally, even if no action is involved.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 04:46 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brucer007 View Post
The taking of the photo, in most cases is does not effect the person in the photo as much as posting it online could ( I know some cultures consider the mere act of being photographed as having part of their sole taken away).

I get that you are trying to stand up for and protect the the rights of cosplayers, but it could be looked at as hypocritical for you to post the image in question here in this forum, since I assume you did not get permission from the woman in the photo to post her photo.

It might also be considered taboo to post a photographer's photograph somewhere else without permission.

This happened to me in these forums. Someone posted a photo I took of a female cosplayer, because they assumed I got a sneaky "panty shot". Even if they were correct, (especially if they were correct) I found it hypocritical for that person to have posted that image in a forum for even more people to see... Fortunately, for the cosplayer and myself, the photo was taken with the cosplayer's permission, and I showed her all the photos with the option to delete any she did not like. She approved all of them. Her Kasume cosplay had bikini bottoms that got more exposed during a twirl, not panties, which was consistent with the anime character. For me, it was merely her costume moving during the heat of sword battle.
Very true. I took down the picture.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 04:58 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Surfsama View Post
I did not say she was some abstract part of the photo. I said the composition of the photo in its entirety makes this an interesting shot. If she had sat on a stool with a white background it probably wouldn't have had the same effect.




OR she could also be very flattered and love the picture. We could conjecture about her mood, feelings, perception, and thoughts but neither you or I know what is going on in this picture. Personally, I think she's just putting her phone away and her expression doesn't mean anything. That's what makes this picture unique. It's like Mona Lisa's smile.


Yes, this is correct. However, this example implies the photographer is knowingly taking a malicious picture. The picture of the girl is candid and as far as I can see there is no malicious intent by the photographer.



The photographer could have asked but she chose not to. It's well within the photographer's rights to make that decision in the public domain regardless of how I or anyone else feels about it. The photographer will assume responsibility for his or her actions.

For the record, I understand your position that you do not like this picture and you feel the photographer should have ask the subject for permission. You especially don't like that she posted it on DA without consent. That is your opinion and you are entitled to it which is neither right or wrong. The photographer has a different opinion and she is entitled to it as well.



Yes. And after these discussions we had, I feel I know what she are her thoughts. Though I had an opposite opinion and I still do. Just because a situation exists doesn't mean it is justified. Before the Civil Rights Movement the rights for African Americans were not recognized either.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 12:08 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by errido View Post
No, I believe that they have equal rights. Even though it is not illegal to take pictures of someone, it is still taking freedom from that person. Freedom is weighted equally, even if no action is involved.
You keep saying they are taking away that freedom, but that' freedom doesn't exist. So essentially you are criticizing someone for taking away a freedom that never existed in the first place. Different from your civil rights reference, this has been addressed many times in the courts and that is why photographers are free to take pictures. You have a right/freedom not to be photographed in private but you give up that right/freedom when you go out in public. So in reality, you're taking that freedom away from yourself.
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Unread 04-17-2012, 10:22 PM   #38
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Let's clear one thing up - you have no reasonable expectation of privacy in public. That is established. If you are on the street anyone has the right to photograph you. Cons, however, are usually on private property. If you photograph someone inside a con you do not have that right to photograph and may be legally kicked out for as they are no longer in public.
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Unread 04-18-2012, 08:01 PM   #39
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Hmm... I don't post here much(correction this is my first post), I'm mainly just a lurker, but I also enjoy going to con's and taking pics. I guess that's good enough of an intro

My only "Official Photography Training" was a few classes in photo journalism so as to the legality and practicality stance I have, if your doing something in public then you should know it's public it's that simple.

As to what I do. I will ask if I can get a shot if I need something setup or need the cosplayer to stand still, do something etc. I see it almost as a verbal contract and then get their opinions on how the shot looks and let them know where they can get it etc. I'm doing something and so are they so it's a collaborative work IMO.

I also love to just stand back and capture moments and have gotten some of my favorite pics from just sitting back with a zoom. In this situation it's an anything goes, I'm not asking anyone to do anything I'm just firing off capturing the moments. I'm usually taking a bunch of shots at this point and time and it would be impossible to go up to everyone and ask them for permission or if they like a pic. Granted I've been known to run up to someone hand them a card and tell them I just got an amazing pic of them to check it out on my flickr or my site.
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Unread 04-18-2012, 09:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by errido View Post
Let me put it another way:
So what if you are a photographer at a party and you see a well dressed man picking his nose (I really want to photograph this if possible__ノ乙(、'ノ、)_).
A unique image opportunity presented itself.
A photographer had to decide whether to capture it or lose it forever.
The photographer captured it.
The photographer could have asked for a permission after the picture is taken but declared not to.
The photographer posted it.
This picture could have a negative impact on the subject

I admit this is rather extreme.

What would happen if the photographer asked that girl for a permission?
She would say either yes or no. It's that simple. If she says yes, that's good. But what if she says no? Does anyone ever think of the possibility that she might say no? And that there is a reason behind the answer?
I shall give you a good example of the situation you have described, as I witnessed this happening a few weeks ago at SakuraCon.

On the last day, Easter Sunday, I was taking pictures of my friend Hanyaan in her Touhou costume. Before we found a place to take pictures, I noticed there was another photographer, walking around taking pictures of almost every cosplayer he saw. He did not ask the cosplayers to take their pictures, and just did candid pictures. He was an African American man in his 40's, wearing a suit, and had headphones on his head. He did not look like he was attending the convention, because he did not have a badge and I did not see him before during the con. (The outdoor park area connected to the Seattle Convention Center is open to the public.)

So when I found a nice place to take pictures of Hanyaan, this photographer started taking of her also from behind me. While this happens a lot, he did not get in my way. As I was shooting Hanyaan, we both noticed that to the side of us, about 15 feet away, were 2 girls, both wearing Homestuck costumes, being quite intimate.

While their lip-locking was going on, I ignored them and continued to do my shoot of Hanyaan. It was then that we noticed that the mentioned photographer was off to the side, secretly taking pictures of the girls while they were doing their thing.

We both wanted to either say something to this guy and tell him to scram, or tell the two girls that they were being photographed. While they thought their location was partially hidden, obviously not good enough if someone could still see them and take their pictures.

In the end, this "well dressed man" basically followed all the steps you mentioned, although I don't know if he ever posted the pictures. If he ever did, the pictures would definitely would get negative feedback from them.

To me, that was the lowest example a photographer would go to take pictures without asking. Who's to say that if he went up to the girls and asked them to their pictures while they were making out, what would their answer be? "Yes" or "GTFO!"
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Unread 04-19-2012, 01:26 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Eurobeat King View Post
I shall give you a good example of the situation you have described, as I witnessed this happening a few weeks ago at SakuraCon.

On the last day, Easter Sunday, I was taking pictures of my friend Hanyaan in her Touhou costume. Before we found a place to take pictures, I noticed there was another photographer, walking around taking pictures of almost every cosplayer he saw. He did not ask the cosplayers to take their pictures, and just did candid pictures. He was an African American man in his 40's, wearing a suit, and had headphones on his head. He did not look like he was attending the convention, because he did not have a badge and I did not see him before during the con. (The outdoor park area connected to the Seattle Convention Center is open to the public.)

So when I found a nice place to take pictures of Hanyaan, this photographer started taking of her also from behind me. While this happens a lot, he did not get in my way. As I was shooting Hanyaan, we both noticed that to the side of us, about 15 feet away, were 2 girls, both wearing Homestuck costumes, being quite intimate.

While their lip-locking was going on, I ignored them and continued to do my shoot of Hanyaan. It was then that we noticed that the mentioned photographer was off to the side, secretly taking pictures of the girls while they were doing their thing.

We both wanted to either say something to this guy and tell him to scram, or tell the two girls that they were being photographed. While they thought their location was partially hidden, obviously not good enough if someone could still see them and take their pictures.

In the end, this "well dressed man" basically followed all the steps you mentioned, although I don't know if he ever posted the pictures. If he ever did, the pictures would definitely would get negative feedback from them.

To me, that was the lowest example a photographer would go to take pictures without asking. Who's to say that if he went up to the girls and asked them to their pictures while they were making out, what would their answer be? "Yes" or "GTFO!"
Help me here. Two people are making-out 15 feet from a photographer and cosplayer doing a photoshoot and another photographer nearby in a public area likely under a security camera and there was...an expectation of privacy? What rights would you or the cosplayer have invoke that overruled those of the "well dressed African-American man's right to take photos in a public area?"
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Unread 04-19-2012, 01:53 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Surfsama View Post
Help me here. Two people are making-out 15 feet from a photographer and cosplayer doing a photoshoot and another photographer nearby in a public area likely under a security camera and there was...an expectation of privacy? What rights would you or the cosplayer have invoke that overruled those of the "well dressed African-American man's right to take photos in a public area?"
Hanyaan and I found a spot under a Sakura Blossom tree, and we started to take pictures. That was when we noticed that the couple were smooching, but we ignored it and just did our pictures. The park doesn't really have security cameras there, but they do have alarms for people to activate if they are attacked. (Always wondered how long it would take for security to get there should an alarm be triggered.)

Anyway, the couple was in a small, tight area that's kinda hidden from the open area, which I have used to do solo pictures of cosplayers to get away from the crowds. So they thought they wouldn't be seen by the majority of people walking through that area. It just so happened that Hanyaan and I spotted them but we just did our own business.

I would've said something to the photographer because to me there are some moments when nobody should take pictures of people when they don't want to be bothered. A good example is when a cosplayer is suffering drama and is crying, and people want to take pictures of them. Should we not say anything and let them take such embarrassing pictures?

What would you do in this situation?
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Unread 04-19-2012, 02:23 AM   #43
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I wouldn't say anything to him. He is exercising his rights to photograph in the public domain. That's a first amendment right that even the police have to respect. I may not agree with his morals but I'm not the morals police either. Telling him to "scram" would be no different than telling the kissing couple to "scram" because maybe they should be doing that in the privacy of their own home where they would have the expectation of privacy.

I know what you're saying but unless he's breaking the law (non-consent of panty shots are illegal) or physically harming a person he has the same rights as you and me to photograph whatever he wants however he wants so long as it's not prohibited.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 03:11 AM   #44
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I would have stopped shooting, walked up to the guy and asked him to stop. Probably calling him a dirty old man in the process, since I'm not very good at holding my tongue.
I find this just as creepy as trying to get a pantyshot.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 03:59 PM   #45
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I'm surprised no one has brought up that some cosplays may refer to what they do as /their/ art. I may not personally, but I know quite a few who would, especially when they are original outfits or the like. Now, if you were to take a picture of a painting, would you credit the artist? But that's just one way some people may look at it.

I see it as that whether it's before or after, if you plan on sharing that picture publicly, the person should know. If you're only showing a limited number of people, I don't care what you do, but the internet is a different story. When I post a picture, I credit everything that I feel can be (Cosplayer, Who ever created/designed the character/series, photographer and generally list where and when it was taken).

I've also noticed then many people keep saying that if they asked, the moment would be lost. If that's the case, why not just ask afterwards? Show the cosplayer the photo, tell them who you are, let them know you're gonna to post it, offer to take more (if you want). What harm will it really do you?
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