Go Back   Cosplay.com > US Convention Forums > Anime Expo

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 510 votes, 4.93 average.
Unread 04-19-2012, 08:34 PM   #31
Freight
Rolling 20's Podcast Host
 
Freight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,982
To add to Senerity's point; we're not stumping to change dates. We've been discussing that the opportunity was there for the SPJA to take action months ago.

They haven't.

Now, we have to make the best of a very bad lot that includes a lot of personal safety concerns. Part of this issue is that the two closest hotels to the LACC are effectively cut off from a direct route. This situation pretty much creates a scenario where the two fanbases are going to interact.

And let's be honest... X-Games fans aren't going to be the only ones drinking. AX people drink, too, just not as part of the event. If I had a nickel for every drunken otaku I ran into during a convention, my debt would be 100% eliminated.

The reason to get people worried is so they can be more vigilant and more aware to avoid confrontations, but we would be remiss in saying, "I wouldn't bet on it happening." That implies that there's just no reason to worry. There is reason to worry. There is reason to watch out. We should all go the extra mile to think about our own safety. When people on this board have said that grieving Michael Jackson fans made fun of their costumes, I can't imagine what that's like when you add adrenaline and beer to the formula.

Although I'm thinking that hanging out with friends is going to be the most fun I'm going to have. I don't see a reason to reward this type of management behavior with my continued patronage.
Freight is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Unread 04-19-2012, 09:15 PM   #32
animegamer057
Jeriko Missile
 
animegamer057's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 205
Personally, I wouldn't let the X Games ruin my fun at AX nor will I let it be the deciding factor of whether or not I should attend. I'll just keep doing like any other resourceful fan can do, adapt to the situation.

However, what I don't want for us AX attendees is garnering an 'Us vs. Them' attitude towards the X Games attendees. Not to sound woefully optimistic about our situation, but I'd like to think of this as an opportunity to share our hobby and our love for anime with not just ourselves, but with the X Games crowd as well and vice versa.

But to be realistic, in all probability, conflict between AX attendees and X Games attendees (and among ourselves) may very well happen if not an inevitability. The best thing we can do is to not lower ourselves down to the level at which the drunk or belligerent is at as it would further support and encourage the bad behavior. Avoid and walk away from conflict whenever possible. Stand your ground and be civil if truly necessary. And above all else, STAY SAFE.

All in all, Pray for Civility, Prepare for Indecency. Adapt as Necessary.
__________________
WHAT GURREN LAGANN TAUGHT ME
  • Logic only gets in the way of being AWESOME
  • Drills are AWESOME
  • Who the Hell I thought I was
  • and that Kamina is AWESOME incarnate
animegamer057 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-19-2012, 09:37 PM   #33
Freight
Rolling 20's Podcast Host
 
Freight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by animegamer057 View Post
Personally, I wouldn't let the X Games ruin my fun at AX nor will I let it be the deciding factor of whether or not I should attend. I'll just keep doing like any other resourceful fan can do, adapt to the situation.

However, what I don't want for us AX attendees is garnering an 'Us vs. Them' attitude towards the X Games attendees. Not to sound woefully optimistic about our situation, but I'd like to think of this as an opportunity to share our hobby and our love for anime with not just ourselves, but with the X Games crowd as well and vice versa.

But to be realistic, in all probability, conflict between AX attendees and X Games attendees (and among ourselves) may very well happen if not an inevitability. The best thing we can do is to not lower ourselves down to the level at which the drunk or belligerent is at as it would further support and encourage the bad behavior. Avoid and walk away from conflict whenever possible. Stand your ground and be civil if truly necessary. And above all else, STAY SAFE.

All in all, Pray for Civility, Prepare for Indecency. Adapt as Necessary.
That sounds good in theory, but by discussing this, we're trying to figure out just HOW to adapt. There hasn't been much discussion of not going, but how to make all of this work.

Don't over-simplify by making an assumption of making an "us vs. them" scenario since we don't want to have any clashes in the events. We're trying to not to intermingle too often for everyone's own good. You're talking about approximately 180,000 people who are going to be over-sugared, highly stimulated, partially sleep deprived, and trying to share space in the local eateries, and those numbers don't include guests, staff personnel, and athletes.

The AX has had to share space with several other conventions over the years, but, to my knowledge, not from the position of the minority in the area.

I also think it's been pretty clear we don't want to get involved with drunk or belligerent people, but you can't deny that walking away is an option, but it's not always an available option. Especially since some of us have no choice but to walk around this event to keep from going too far into unsavory areas very close to the Figueroa Corridor.

But the larger issue isn't our wariness, so much as the lack of information or perception of progress on the issue by the people in charge of our event. If something isn't done to expedite the process and limit the interaction of the two crowds, then conflict could very well become an inevitability.
Freight is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-19-2012, 11:24 PM   #34
animejunkie
Crossplay is awesome
 
animejunkie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 796
Quote:
Originally Posted by BizarreSerenity View Post
The Kyoto hotel is VERY nice, luxurious, and well priced. But they don't like a lot of noise. This year we're staying at the Western though, so we will be closer and have the shuttle service. Is the Western any good? It had nice reviews, but I'd like to hear from some fellow con goers about it.
I'm assuming you meant the Westin? Yes, it's a nice hotel and the glass elevators a kind of fun to ride up in especially if you're on a higher floor. However not as fun when you're drunk though. I stayed there in 08 and 09 as well and had minimal complaints, though the elevators can be few and far between or really slow when you want to get to your room.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BizarreSerenity View Post
I really hope they won't change the date. My boyfriend can't move his leave date and our hotel is already paid for.
This late in the game, I would highly doubt that they would change dates. Even if they could, I'm willing to bet that it could involve some heavy fines for late changes depending on how the contract works out and if there is one thing the debt ridden AX does NOT need it's fines. I'm just grasping at straws though, we don't know the basics of AX's contract with LACC...in any case, LACC might not have any open dates beyond the ones they have set currently for AX. Also, there is the fact that Comic Con is about two weeks after AX as opposed to the normal three weeks, so a move to the next weekend would probably not be good either.

I really hope that we get some kind of information soon and by that, I mean NOT the week before the convention as an afterthought. I think that we as paying attendees deserve to know what they're working on not only to put on a good con, but also what they've worked out as safety measures and the like with the X Games people so that both sides can keep their fans safe and somehow minimize the inconvenience of two big events going on at the same time
__________________
Twitter: @otakuforlife
Blog: The Casual Otaku

FB: The Casual Otaku

Anime Expo 2016 cosplay plans (subject to change)

Day 0: Casual maid Maki Nishikino (Love Live)
Day 1: Mikuru Asahina/Yuki Nagato(?) (TMoHS - summer uniform)
Day 2: You Watanabe (Love Live Sunshine - school uniform)
Day 3: Ami Mizuno (Sailor Moon - winter uniform)
Day 4: Casual maid cosplay or Yui Hirasawa (K-ON - summer uniform)
animejunkie is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-19-2012, 11:41 PM   #35
Access
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by animejunkie View Post
I really hope that we get some kind of information soon and by that, I mean NOT the week before the convention as an afterthought. I think that we as paying attendees deserve to know what they're working on not only to put on a good con, but also what they've worked out as safety measures and the like with the X Games people so that both sides can keep their fans safe and somehow minimize the inconvenience of two big events going on at the same time
I think this will probably come down to about a month before the con when ESPN puts out the event maps for the X-games.

Then we can try to figure out how to get to the main entrances of the convention center (if possible), where to hold large, 50+ people gatherings (if possible), and so on.

It doesn't seem like we are going to be able to figure these kinds of things out before that, at least not with any kind of certainty.
Access is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 02:16 AM   #36
El_Duque
miyoshi82
 
El_Duque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,594
Well the AX forums are back up and nothing was changed.
El_Duque is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 08:11 AM   #37
Freight
Rolling 20's Podcast Host
 
Freight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,982
Really? I'm showing more text about major difficulties. Though the tentacle is gone.
Freight is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 08:20 AM   #38
amateur cameko
I need a better avatar...
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 151
...And the forums are back down again...Well, there were events held at Staples Center during AX before, like prep work for the Michael Jackson memorial in 2009, a WNBA game in 2010, and a Backstreet Boys/NKOTB concert in 2011. The challenge is that it's now possibly being used for multiple days (though I haven't seen confirmation on ESPN's site that they're even going to downtown L.A...).

I would think that the incidents of fighting at Dodger Stadium last year and at the Rose Bowl during the UCLA-USC game the year before that have put LAPD on notice to watch over any large sporting event.

Anyway, it also is possible X Games may be having trouble finding a venue where traffic won't keep people away as the Dodgers have a home game series that same weekend, which I know would keep me from taking the 110. I would've thought they would have already mentioned what venues the X-Games are using so fans can plan their hotel arrangements accordingly.
amateur cameko is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 09:45 AM   #39
DarkCloudInc
S. M. R. T. I mean...
 
DarkCloudInc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freight View Post
Well, there's no one saying that ESPN wouldn't share liability, but we're not speaking as X-Games attendees. We paid to go to AX. Unfortunately for the SPJA, there's evidence that they've known about the conflict for months, and since then, it's been pretty clear that we have safety concerns from the conflict.

As the smaller event, AX is the more mobile one. And since the X-Games announced their dates in September, there was ample opportunity to either change dates or negotiate some kind of walkway for us to utilize.

And, with the discussions here about different parties worried, and with AX not providing an alternative forum while theirs is down for non-cosplayers to disseminate information, it could be argued that the SPJA was knowingly making it yarder to voice our safety concerns, thereby, theoretically, opening themselves up to lawsuits if anyone is injured. Thereafter, it could spin into a class action suit against the AX, IDG, and the SPJA on the basis that they did not properly secure the convention for its attendees.

Again, this is all theoretical, but ESPN may not have a lot of liability since they didn't invite us to take part in their show and we didn't pay to view the X-Games. They would have minor liability for serving drinks, assum ing that occurs this year, but, more likely, the liability would be shifted to the XGame watcher who fought, assuming they are the instigator.

Then, ESPN is a thriving corporation with an armada of active lawyers. The SPJA is in financial trouble and couldn't afford the same quality of defense unless IDG steps in. The SPJA would be the easier target for an AX attendee with a shark lawyer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakaider View Post
As Freight has said, noone is saying here, that ESPN won't be off the hook.

The big difference here though, is that if ESPN gets sued, it's pocket change for them. They have an army of lawyers who can settle the matter with no problem. (Remember, they can easily afford it, if one of the athletes gets hurt during their show. And some of their athletes DO get hurt during the show.)

Also remember, that if ESPN really wanted to, they can get Brad Pitt and Angelina Jollie at a moment's notice. Money is no object for them.

If the SPJA gets sued, it's pretty much over for AX. (Especially with the loss of $1.2 million in 2010.)

As I have said before in the other thread, here's the difference financially between the two organizations:

AX: "How much would it cost to rent/negotiate the LA Convention Center?"

ESPN: "When & how fast do you want us to write the check? Wait..Did you say $5 million to bring in the trained live elephants overnight from Africa & India, and live dancers from Brazil for the street parade? That's all? Do you want us to bring "Shamu", the killer whale in, as well?"
You're making the point to target ESPN rather than AX, if the option to sue both isn't available. A lawyer wants a guaranteed source of income and it is in the best interest of the lawyer and their client to target the company that has the most available resources available, again if they had to choose a single company.

If there is alcohol involved, the vendor selling it is the one who's held liable. It is up to the vendor to know when to refuse selling liquor to the customer by law. With ESPN being the vendor, they are liable for selling liquor to an intoxicated person and their actions thereafter. If the person involved is intoxicated and an incident where an injury is a result, the injured party can not only sue the involved party but ESPN as well.

With ESPN having the most available resources on hand, they have the most options to manage their attendees. Should they fail to manage their attendees, they should be held accountable for their failures.

By the way, as a result of the US Supreme Court's ruling in AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion, a class action is no longer an easy option to take as companies can now force arbitration.

I'm not a lawyer, just a news junky.
__________________
Facebook (Friend|Fan) - Twitter
RWBY: Blake Belladonna - Gambol Shroud FUNCTIONAL: Done!
RWBY: Pyrrha Nikos - Milo FUNCTIONAL: Building
---
Planned Cosplay 2014 - Winged Armor Year: Tentative
Pegasus God Cloth - Silver [Saint Seiya]
ACen?: Sat?

Last edited by DarkCloudInc : 04-20-2012 at 10:08 AM.
DarkCloudInc is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 01:11 PM   #40
El_Duque
miyoshi82
 
El_Duque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,594
Quote:
Originally Posted by amateur cameko View Post
...And the forums are back down again...Well, there were events held at Staples Center during AX before, like prep work for the Michael Jackson memorial in 2009, a WNBA game in 2010, and a Backstreet Boys/NKOTB concert in 2011. The challenge is that it's now possibly being used for multiple days (though I haven't seen confirmation on ESPN's site that they're even going to downtown L.A...).

I would think that the incidents of fighting at Dodger Stadium last year and at the Rose Bowl during the UCLA-USC game the year before that have put LAPD on notice to watch over any large sporting event.

Anyway, it also is possible X Games may be having trouble finding a venue where traffic won't keep people away as the Dodgers have a home game series that same weekend, which I know would keep me from taking the 110. I would've thought they would have already mentioned what venues the X-Games are using so fans can plan their hotel arrangements accordingly.
The key here is ESPN Zone at LA Live. They have broadcasting studios (ESPN LA, late night Sportscenter, radio booths, etc.) upstairs from the restaurant. They would wnat to keep everything close as possible. Where else could held it? The Forum? I doubt that.
El_Duque is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 02:04 PM   #41
Freight
Rolling 20's Podcast Host
 
Freight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,982
Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCloudInc View Post
You're making the point to target ESPN rather than AX, if the option to sue both isn't available. A lawyer wants a guaranteed source of income and it is in the best interest of the lawyer and their client to target the company that has the most available resources available, again if they had to choose a single company.

If there is alcohol involved, the vendor selling it is the one who's held liable. It is up to the vendor to know when to refuse selling liquor to the customer by law. With ESPN being the vendor, they are liable for selling liquor to an intoxicated person and their actions thereafter. If the person involved is intoxicated and an incident where an injury is a result, the injured party can not only sue the involved party but ESPN as well.

With ESPN having the most available resources on hand, they have the most options to manage their attendees. Should they fail to manage their attendees, they should be held accountable for their failures.

By the way, as a result of the US Supreme Court's ruling in AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion, a class action is no longer an easy option to take as companies can now force arbitration.

I'm not a lawyer, just a news junky.
The AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion decision that California can't enforce anti-arbitration clauses in contracts. Since the hypothetical situation doesn't involve signed contracts between the parties, I don't think that particular case law applies.

Again, we haven't said that ESPN couldn't be a party, but they have some very daunting legal professionals working for them that would, more likely, shift blame to the vendor that sold the alcohol, and they would have some minor liability since selling alcohol doesn't guarantee that all buyers of the same could handle their liquor. If you could sue the vendor for simply providing alcohol, than Anheiseur Busch (sp), Absolut, Bacardi, and other liquor makers would be a party to every drunken accident that occurs on the highways across America.

An attorney would be concerned with the overall settlement/monetary compensation, of course, but since the SPJA signed the agreement with IDG making them partners in the AX, and since there's open discussion online of their attendees worried about their safety, they would be the simplest pocket to go after, and now, IDG can be added as a party to such a litigation.

IDG is a Forbes 500 company with over $3.24 billion in earnings from 2011 per Forbes webste. Click here to see the Forbes profile.

ESPN is part of another Fortune 500 company, Disney, Inc.

So, there's two large companies to go after, but I bet IDG/SPJA would be a more appealing target than going after Disney's attorneys.
Freight is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 02:51 PM   #42
Access
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,244
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freight View Post
So, there's two large companies to go after, but I bet IDG/SPJA would be a more appealing target than going after Disney's attorneys.
It's not one companies' attorneys or another, most of the time there is some kind of liability or indemnification policy in place so the insurance company is going to either settle outright, or provide (most likely hire out) attorneys who attempt to negotiate a settlement (very few cases actually go to court) and any settlement payments are going to be made by that policy.

You can find the line-item for insurance on the numerous form 990's, for instance:
http://dynamodata.fdncenter.org/990_...00912_990O.pdf
page 10, line item 23, $8981.

On the 2010 form (from guidestar)
page 10, line item 23, $23,830.

In general, liability insurance in almost a given in today's world, lawsuits may be rare but few foundations are willing to risk not having liability insurance when the costs of litigation can be in the hundreds of thousands.

As an example see page 8, section B of the same 2010 form 990
"OLIVER & SABEC ... / LEGAL SERVICES / $391,158."
and page 10, line item 24c
"LEGAL SETTLEMENT $70,000."
Access is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 02:57 PM   #43
Nemuren
Great King of Evil
 
Nemuren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 279
My greater concern than encountering drunken sports fans is about just how logistically this con will work. If the entrances at both West Hall and South Hall are being obstructed by the X-Games layout, it sounds like this con will be a big hassle even if I wasn't planning on wearing costumes. The continuing silence is not encouraging.
Nemuren is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 03:10 PM   #44
Second Star Cosplay
SecondStarCosplay
 
Second Star Cosplay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 765
I may be a bit concerned with the fans I may encounter, especially dressed as Yoko. But it's easy to just put my head down and quickly walk by, so I'm not worried too much about that. But Nemuren raises a good point. it's going to be a bitch to find a way in. I know that the L.A live courtyard will be X-games terratory, but they'll have to have a path threw there if you think about it. All the resturants, and even just their own attendies needing to get to the J.W Marriot right there. Plus that would be a big fire hazzard if there was no exit/entrance through there for people to go.

It might not be an ideal way to walk, but it will be possible.
__________________
Robot's Vs Sailor Senshi's?
Interesting fight...


Follow me on Facebook! SecondStarCosplay
Second Star Cosplay is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-20-2012, 03:12 PM   #45
Access
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 2,244
Nemuren you are not the only one, people in my group (the one I normally go to cons with) and others I know of are making similar plans. Forgoing less mobile cosplays, not cosplaying at all, cutting back on the number of days, planned to attend, etc.

Unfortunately there just isn't a lot of certainty out there and some of the more complicated cosplays can take months of preparation. Also a lot of the larger gatherings are trying to figure out a usable location but there isn't much clarity on this topic either.

Personally I just have a lot of general concern for instance if both the main entrances to the convention center (the numerous doors in front of south hall, the doors in front of west hall) are blocked or rendered inaccessible by the large outdoor event, what then happens if the building has to be evacuated (like the bomb scare last year) or there is a fire?

Honestly I'm not sure if we will go as a group this year; even if we gain sufficient clarity before the convention, it may be too late as people will have made other plans or already made up their mind.

As things stand we are going to have twice the people going to Fanime as compared to AX; it might seem kinda odd for a local group (AX is a two hour drive, Fanime is a six to eight hour drive or a one hour plane ride) so honestly I might be going around AX this year with a different group than the usual one.

Last edited by Access : 04-20-2012 at 03:23 PM.
Access is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:05 AM.


Copyright 2002-2016 Cosplay.com, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
All comments and posts in our forums are the opinion of the respective poster.