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Unread 04-19-2012, 04:44 PM   #31
FancyIndia
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There's absolutely no way AX would change the dates this close to the event. I am sure that their contract with the LACC has some clause that ensures they loose money if they cancel or change dates. And changing the date would screw over everyone who has to ask for time off, plan plane and hotel reservations and so on.

Basically at this point, you have to choose whether you want to go or not. The X Games and AX will both be at the same time, nothing is going to change that. You have to remember that there is 100% for sure going to be cops around as well as private security, so it's not like it will be us versus them with no one around watching. And this negative attitude towards the X Games fans, when they literally have done nothing to the AX fans yet is just going to have everyone on edge and be more likely the cause of a fight. Just be prepared and use common sense. If someone is this upset about the issue, it might be in their best interest to not go to AX this year. Don't even put yourself in a situation where you feel uncomfortable, because you won't have any fun. As for me, I don't see it as this big of an issue and won't keep me from enjoying AX, but that's just me. I really don't think the X Games fans are going to pick fights, they just want to enjoy their even, too. Yeah, there might be a few who can't handle their liquor, but if you run into someone like that, walk away, and get a security person or police officer. Don't talk to them, just keep on moving. Most drunks will give up when they realize they can't get a rise out of you, or see you heading straight towards someone who can get them into trouble. Like I said, it's down to the point where you just have to make a decision on whether you'll go or not.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 05:02 PM   #32
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This is really disappointing. I was really looking forward to flying down from Ontario in Canada for my first AX this summer, but this whole situation with with X-games has pretty much put me off from going. I don't really want my first AX to be an incomplete package without the concerts in the Nokia Theatre since the concerts are a huge attraction for me, and having to navigate through crowded and blocked off areas. I have enough of that in Toronto for FanExpo when they do the same and it's just really annoying/restricting. Not to mention you all mentioned alcohol is given to X-Games attendees, which is just asking for serious trouble.

I have to say though, the SPJA already isn't in my good books if they have such poor communication with attendees. Already you can see that they've lost me as a customer this year, and I'll be even more skeptical for future AX events. Also, trust with existing attendees is probably reduced now for those who hear about this, or will be when they get there for the event.

If there's one good thing though, I'm very thankful to you all for making a thread discussing these concerns to inform people like me. I'd have been quite outraged if I had flown all the way there only to end up with a half-baked experience. Not to say that it can't be a good experience, but that for those flying in from distance regions, it's probably not as worth it.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 05:20 PM   #33
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You are right it is far too late to change the date as they have already opened the hotel block, etc.

But honestly it's not so much individuals but groups of friends that make those kinds of decisions, whether to attend, not attend, or just wait and try to figure out what is going on.

When there is not enough information out there, or a high degree of uncertainty, things basically turn into a waiting game of trying to get everyone on the same page so a decision can be made.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 05:21 PM   #34
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I stayed at the Westin. Very nice place. TVs are a bit old and quiet, but great places for food in the lobby mall.

Only downside is that it can be rough on you if you have a fear of heights.

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Unread 04-19-2012, 05:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FancyIndia View Post
There's absolutely no way AX would change the dates this close to the event. I am sure that their contract with the LACC has some clause that ensures they loose money if they cancel or change dates. And changing the date would screw over everyone who has to ask for time off, plan plane and hotel reservations and so on.

Basically at this point, you have to choose whether you want to go or not. The X Games and AX will both be at the same time, nothing is going to change that. You have to remember that there is 100% for sure going to be cops around as well as private security, so it's not like it will be us versus them with no one around watching. And this negative attitude towards the X Games fans, when they literally have done nothing to the AX fans yet is just going to have everyone on edge and be more likely the cause of a fight. Just be prepared and use common sense. If someone is this upset about the issue, it might be in their best interest to not go to AX this year. Don't even put yourself in a situation where you feel uncomfortable, because you won't have any fun. As for me, I don't see it as this big of an issue and won't keep me from enjoying AX, but that's just me. I really don't think the X Games fans are going to pick fights, they just want to enjoy their even, too. Yeah, there might be a few who can't handle their liquor, but if you run into someone like that, walk away, and get a security person or police officer. Don't talk to them, just keep on moving. Most drunks will give up when they realize they can't get a rise out of you, or see you heading straight towards someone who can get them into trouble. Like I said, it's down to the point where you just have to make a decision on whether you'll go or not.
No offense, but have you ever been to the X-Games? Being from a sports/skater fanatic family i've been. And there are lots of drunk and belligerent people who just want to cause trouble. I'm not saying that everyone who goes to see the X-Games is a drunken fool, (because they aren't) BUT there is a huge amount of people who are unsavory. It's just bad stuff waiting to happen.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 08:34 PM   #36
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To add to Senerity's point; we're not stumping to change dates. We've been discussing that the opportunity was there for the SPJA to take action months ago.

They haven't.

Now, we have to make the best of a very bad lot that includes a lot of personal safety concerns. Part of this issue is that the two closest hotels to the LACC are effectively cut off from a direct route. This situation pretty much creates a scenario where the two fanbases are going to interact.

And let's be honest... X-Games fans aren't going to be the only ones drinking. AX people drink, too, just not as part of the event. If I had a nickel for every drunken otaku I ran into during a convention, my debt would be 100% eliminated.

The reason to get people worried is so they can be more vigilant and more aware to avoid confrontations, but we would be remiss in saying, "I wouldn't bet on it happening." That implies that there's just no reason to worry. There is reason to worry. There is reason to watch out. We should all go the extra mile to think about our own safety. When people on this board have said that grieving Michael Jackson fans made fun of their costumes, I can't imagine what that's like when you add adrenaline and beer to the formula.

Although I'm thinking that hanging out with friends is going to be the most fun I'm going to have. I don't see a reason to reward this type of management behavior with my continued patronage.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 09:15 PM   #37
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Personally, I wouldn't let the X Games ruin my fun at AX nor will I let it be the deciding factor of whether or not I should attend. I'll just keep doing like any other resourceful fan can do, adapt to the situation.

However, what I don't want for us AX attendees is garnering an 'Us vs. Them' attitude towards the X Games attendees. Not to sound woefully optimistic about our situation, but I'd like to think of this as an opportunity to share our hobby and our love for anime with not just ourselves, but with the X Games crowd as well and vice versa.

But to be realistic, in all probability, conflict between AX attendees and X Games attendees (and among ourselves) may very well happen if not an inevitability. The best thing we can do is to not lower ourselves down to the level at which the drunk or belligerent is at as it would further support and encourage the bad behavior. Avoid and walk away from conflict whenever possible. Stand your ground and be civil if truly necessary. And above all else, STAY SAFE.

All in all, Pray for Civility, Prepare for Indecency. Adapt as Necessary.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 09:37 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by animegamer057 View Post
Personally, I wouldn't let the X Games ruin my fun at AX nor will I let it be the deciding factor of whether or not I should attend. I'll just keep doing like any other resourceful fan can do, adapt to the situation.

However, what I don't want for us AX attendees is garnering an 'Us vs. Them' attitude towards the X Games attendees. Not to sound woefully optimistic about our situation, but I'd like to think of this as an opportunity to share our hobby and our love for anime with not just ourselves, but with the X Games crowd as well and vice versa.

But to be realistic, in all probability, conflict between AX attendees and X Games attendees (and among ourselves) may very well happen if not an inevitability. The best thing we can do is to not lower ourselves down to the level at which the drunk or belligerent is at as it would further support and encourage the bad behavior. Avoid and walk away from conflict whenever possible. Stand your ground and be civil if truly necessary. And above all else, STAY SAFE.

All in all, Pray for Civility, Prepare for Indecency. Adapt as Necessary.
That sounds good in theory, but by discussing this, we're trying to figure out just HOW to adapt. There hasn't been much discussion of not going, but how to make all of this work.

Don't over-simplify by making an assumption of making an "us vs. them" scenario since we don't want to have any clashes in the events. We're trying to not to intermingle too often for everyone's own good. You're talking about approximately 180,000 people who are going to be over-sugared, highly stimulated, partially sleep deprived, and trying to share space in the local eateries, and those numbers don't include guests, staff personnel, and athletes.

The AX has had to share space with several other conventions over the years, but, to my knowledge, not from the position of the minority in the area.

I also think it's been pretty clear we don't want to get involved with drunk or belligerent people, but you can't deny that walking away is an option, but it's not always an available option. Especially since some of us have no choice but to walk around this event to keep from going too far into unsavory areas very close to the Figueroa Corridor.

But the larger issue isn't our wariness, so much as the lack of information or perception of progress on the issue by the people in charge of our event. If something isn't done to expedite the process and limit the interaction of the two crowds, then conflict could very well become an inevitability.
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Unread 04-19-2012, 11:24 PM   #39
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The Kyoto hotel is VERY nice, luxurious, and well priced. But they don't like a lot of noise. This year we're staying at the Western though, so we will be closer and have the shuttle service. Is the Western any good? It had nice reviews, but I'd like to hear from some fellow con goers about it.
I'm assuming you meant the Westin? Yes, it's a nice hotel and the glass elevators a kind of fun to ride up in especially if you're on a higher floor. However not as fun when you're drunk though. I stayed there in 08 and 09 as well and had minimal complaints, though the elevators can be few and far between or really slow when you want to get to your room.

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I really hope they won't change the date. My boyfriend can't move his leave date and our hotel is already paid for.
This late in the game, I would highly doubt that they would change dates. Even if they could, I'm willing to bet that it could involve some heavy fines for late changes depending on how the contract works out and if there is one thing the debt ridden AX does NOT need it's fines. I'm just grasping at straws though, we don't know the basics of AX's contract with LACC...in any case, LACC might not have any open dates beyond the ones they have set currently for AX. Also, there is the fact that Comic Con is about two weeks after AX as opposed to the normal three weeks, so a move to the next weekend would probably not be good either.

I really hope that we get some kind of information soon and by that, I mean NOT the week before the convention as an afterthought. I think that we as paying attendees deserve to know what they're working on not only to put on a good con, but also what they've worked out as safety measures and the like with the X Games people so that both sides can keep their fans safe and somehow minimize the inconvenience of two big events going on at the same time
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Unread 04-19-2012, 11:41 PM   #40
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I really hope that we get some kind of information soon and by that, I mean NOT the week before the convention as an afterthought. I think that we as paying attendees deserve to know what they're working on not only to put on a good con, but also what they've worked out as safety measures and the like with the X Games people so that both sides can keep their fans safe and somehow minimize the inconvenience of two big events going on at the same time
I think this will probably come down to about a month before the con when ESPN puts out the event maps for the X-games.

Then we can try to figure out how to get to the main entrances of the convention center (if possible), where to hold large, 50+ people gatherings (if possible), and so on.

It doesn't seem like we are going to be able to figure these kinds of things out before that, at least not with any kind of certainty.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 02:16 AM   #41
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Well the AX forums are back up and nothing was changed.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 08:11 AM   #42
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Really? I'm showing more text about major difficulties. Though the tentacle is gone.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 08:20 AM   #43
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...And the forums are back down again...Well, there were events held at Staples Center during AX before, like prep work for the Michael Jackson memorial in 2009, a WNBA game in 2010, and a Backstreet Boys/NKOTB concert in 2011. The challenge is that it's now possibly being used for multiple days (though I haven't seen confirmation on ESPN's site that they're even going to downtown L.A...).

I would think that the incidents of fighting at Dodger Stadium last year and at the Rose Bowl during the UCLA-USC game the year before that have put LAPD on notice to watch over any large sporting event.

Anyway, it also is possible X Games may be having trouble finding a venue where traffic won't keep people away as the Dodgers have a home game series that same weekend, which I know would keep me from taking the 110. I would've thought they would have already mentioned what venues the X-Games are using so fans can plan their hotel arrangements accordingly.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 09:45 AM   #44
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Well, there's no one saying that ESPN wouldn't share liability, but we're not speaking as X-Games attendees. We paid to go to AX. Unfortunately for the SPJA, there's evidence that they've known about the conflict for months, and since then, it's been pretty clear that we have safety concerns from the conflict.

As the smaller event, AX is the more mobile one. And since the X-Games announced their dates in September, there was ample opportunity to either change dates or negotiate some kind of walkway for us to utilize.

And, with the discussions here about different parties worried, and with AX not providing an alternative forum while theirs is down for non-cosplayers to disseminate information, it could be argued that the SPJA was knowingly making it yarder to voice our safety concerns, thereby, theoretically, opening themselves up to lawsuits if anyone is injured. Thereafter, it could spin into a class action suit against the AX, IDG, and the SPJA on the basis that they did not properly secure the convention for its attendees.

Again, this is all theoretical, but ESPN may not have a lot of liability since they didn't invite us to take part in their show and we didn't pay to view the X-Games. They would have minor liability for serving drinks, assum ing that occurs this year, but, more likely, the liability would be shifted to the XGame watcher who fought, assuming they are the instigator.

Then, ESPN is a thriving corporation with an armada of active lawyers. The SPJA is in financial trouble and couldn't afford the same quality of defense unless IDG steps in. The SPJA would be the easier target for an AX attendee with a shark lawyer.
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As Freight has said, noone is saying here, that ESPN won't be off the hook.

The big difference here though, is that if ESPN gets sued, it's pocket change for them. They have an army of lawyers who can settle the matter with no problem. (Remember, they can easily afford it, if one of the athletes gets hurt during their show. And some of their athletes DO get hurt during the show.)

Also remember, that if ESPN really wanted to, they can get Brad Pitt and Angelina Jollie at a moment's notice. Money is no object for them.

If the SPJA gets sued, it's pretty much over for AX. (Especially with the loss of $1.2 million in 2010.)

As I have said before in the other thread, here's the difference financially between the two organizations:

AX: "How much would it cost to rent/negotiate the LA Convention Center?"

ESPN: "When & how fast do you want us to write the check? Wait..Did you say $5 million to bring in the trained live elephants overnight from Africa & India, and live dancers from Brazil for the street parade? That's all? Do you want us to bring "Shamu", the killer whale in, as well?"
You're making the point to target ESPN rather than AX, if the option to sue both isn't available. A lawyer wants a guaranteed source of income and it is in the best interest of the lawyer and their client to target the company that has the most available resources available, again if they had to choose a single company.

If there is alcohol involved, the vendor selling it is the one who's held liable. It is up to the vendor to know when to refuse selling liquor to the customer by law. With ESPN being the vendor, they are liable for selling liquor to an intoxicated person and their actions thereafter. If the person involved is intoxicated and an incident where an injury is a result, the injured party can not only sue the involved party but ESPN as well.

With ESPN having the most available resources on hand, they have the most options to manage their attendees. Should they fail to manage their attendees, they should be held accountable for their failures.

By the way, as a result of the US Supreme Court's ruling in AT&T Mobility v. Concepcion, a class action is no longer an easy option to take as companies can now force arbitration.

I'm not a lawyer, just a news junky.
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Unread 04-20-2012, 01:11 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by amateur cameko View Post
...And the forums are back down again...Well, there were events held at Staples Center during AX before, like prep work for the Michael Jackson memorial in 2009, a WNBA game in 2010, and a Backstreet Boys/NKOTB concert in 2011. The challenge is that it's now possibly being used for multiple days (though I haven't seen confirmation on ESPN's site that they're even going to downtown L.A...).

I would think that the incidents of fighting at Dodger Stadium last year and at the Rose Bowl during the UCLA-USC game the year before that have put LAPD on notice to watch over any large sporting event.

Anyway, it also is possible X Games may be having trouble finding a venue where traffic won't keep people away as the Dodgers have a home game series that same weekend, which I know would keep me from taking the 110. I would've thought they would have already mentioned what venues the X-Games are using so fans can plan their hotel arrangements accordingly.
The key here is ESPN Zone at LA Live. They have broadcasting studios (ESPN LA, late night Sportscenter, radio booths, etc.) upstairs from the restaurant. They would wnat to keep everything close as possible. Where else could held it? The Forum? I doubt that.
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