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Unread 11-25-2012, 01:16 PM   #1
Axelai
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Photographer Reviews?

In my opinion, there should be a photographer reviews thread or forum. I just came onto this site for the first time in awhile to leave a negative review of a very inappropriate photographer my best friend just had to deal with (and she's too uncomfortable with it all to even leave a review). But then, to my surprise, there's no forum or thread to even leave this information for others.

Would any moderators like to start a thread like this so I can leave the information in the proper place? I think it'd be a good idea, especially in the situation I wanted to warn people about, as it involves a photographer who is a pervert, as well as someone who cropped out (in a shot of 2 people) the one he deemed less attractive. There's more to it, which I'll refrain from for now, but it'd be a good idea to have a review section for this sort of thing.
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Unread 11-25-2012, 03:33 PM   #2
Hcoregamer00
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That's not a bad idea.

Lots of people say that I give fun and fast-paced photoshoots, it would be nice to have them put such kind words in a review to give me some exposure when I go to a convention out of my typical SoCal Cosplay circuit to make more friends across the USA. I mean, it shows since I always have insane numbers of requests for shoots at most anime and comic conventions that far exceed my availability, but it is hard to tell what my word of mouth is so I can be an even better photographer.

I too have Cosplay photographers I personally admire because of their work and their affable personalities, there are also others I really would not recommend for your "big" con shoot. You only have two golden hours a day, find a great photographer to make it shine
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Unread 11-25-2012, 03:35 PM   #3
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Ok just stating. You have to be very specific on what you mean by Negative review. In your case. You're mentioning pervert as one.

I doubt any list will be made up or shared publicly about it due to legal reasons but Conventions do have blacklists. But if your friend keeps quiet there's not much that will happen other than it will continue. You have to be open about it otherwise nobody will be the wiser.

If they decide to go about doing it. You have to approach it indirectly. You can't start saying "SO SO IS A PERVERT" You have to say "Did anyone have this bad experience with a (photographer/convention attendee/staff)" Then you have to say what happened and why you thought it was inappropriate. Maybe mention first name and a website or some identifying information, specific enough but not so much to have people do a drive by pitchfork throwing session.

1) If there is a convention specific or even a link with the convention. Go to that section.

and

2) Go to your Convention's website and see what social networking they have. Ask around if anyone else experienced the same treatment.

As it gets the word out and doesn't put the con or cosplay.com specifically liable for pointing fingers. And again remember next time it happens at a con. Mention it to Convention staff during the con.

Also the above applies to inappropriate behavior at the con during your photoshoot. If the individual crops people out after the fact without doing the above activity. That's a different issue.
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Unread 11-25-2012, 05:57 PM   #4
Surfsama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelai View Post
In my opinion, there should be a photographer reviews thread or forum. I just came onto this site for the first time in awhile to leave a negative review of a very inappropriate photographer my best friend just had to deal with (and she's too uncomfortable with it all to even leave a review). But then, to my surprise, there's no forum or thread to even leave this information for others.

Would any moderators like to start a thread like this so I can leave the information in the proper place? I think it'd be a good idea, especially in the situation I wanted to warn people about, as it involves a photographer who is a pervert, as well as someone who cropped out (in a shot of 2 people) the one he deemed less attractive. There's more to it, which I'll refrain from for now, but it'd be a good idea to have a review section for this sort of thing.
There are people who photograph/video cosplayers for the sole purpose of ridiculing them on the internet. These people should be identified and banned from events.

However, the fundamental problem with this suggestion (besides the points Mrgetalife mentions) is one person's "pervert" is another person's artist. Unlike the costume commissioner reviews, there are no specifications, details, sizes, etc to judge a photographer's picture unless you have a signed contract specifying exactly what is expected.

Now, this photog does sound sleazy if he's misrepresenting himself by agreeing to a photoshoot with multiple people and then cherry-picking the only one he really wanted. I assume you and your friend have confronted him with the facts and haven't received any satisfactory response. Personally, I wouldn't see anything wrong with calling-him out IF you have made good-faith efforts to have him make it right. I would refrain from name-calling or accusations and just lay-down the facts since those should be sufficient to speak for themselves.

There was a good example on this site of how easy a photographer can be wrongly accused. A well respected photographer had captured a picture of a lovely cosplayer in a prearranged (and agreed to) jump shot. Another cosplayer posted it as "inappropriate" because she thought it was a "panty shot" when it really was a white body suit the cosplay wore for the jump shot.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 02:28 AM   #5
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We in the photographer forums, like to keep this place constructive and open to nurture photography for amateurs and professionals alike. This is a support forum designed for photographers in the cosplay community. Having a section dedicated to blasting people is the opposite of what myself and many others have strived to maintain over the past few years.

Of course, if a photographer did something illegal, there is legal recourse in this country and you should contact the proper authorities. If you're not certain, then you can always make an inquiry and we will try to help you determine if certain actions were, indeed, illegal. Laws vary state to state, but there are a few of us who enjoy the challenge of delving into the internet archives to find arbitrary laws pertaining to photography. Even if it's not a question of legality, if you want to discuss/debate if certain actions are excusable or to be expected, then this is the place to do it.

This is not a place to try and slander other members of the community. Respect that we don't come in to the cosplayer forums slandering cosplayers and don't try to do it here. Save it for 4chan, 9gag, or wherever kids gather to spread rumors under the mask of anonymity, please.

Edit: Just wanted to note that this is actually the third draft of what I really wanted to write and is by far the least offensive. Just wanted to point this out before we embark any further into this discussion.

Last edited by TykeJack : 11-26-2012 at 02:34 AM.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 04:27 PM   #6
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I agree with TykeJack, that Cosplay.com, and it's participants strive to celebrate the positive aspects of cosplayers and it's photographers. Making accusations in these forums undermines this.

Even if many situations may be valid complaints, there is room for misunderstandings and unfair bashing, and/or slandering a person's reputation. This can lead to hostility, which is not what this website is intended for.

There are better ways to deal with a problem a cosplayer had with a photographer. Let your complaints be known to the convention, and hopefully they will deal with it in a fair manner through some proper investigation, and not through taking just one person's word, or interpretation.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 07:33 PM   #7
nathancarter
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Just playing devil's advocate for a minute.

There's already a Commissioner Review forum, so why not a Photographer Review forum? Heck, there's even a blacklist thread. Misconduct during a private photoshoot is much more egregious than an undelivered, "lost," or poorly made prop or costume.

Flip side: Most of the poor reviews seem to be for shady overseas websites, not for individual commissioners. However, there ARE a few threads calling out individuals who sold a custom commission, took payment, then never delivered or outright vanished.

I always [try to] conduct myself professionally, so I personally wouldn't object to a review forum.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 08:00 PM   #8
Axelai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathancarter View Post
Just playing devil's advocate for a minute.

There's already a Commissioner Review forum, so why not a Photographer Review forum? Heck, there's even a blacklist thread. Misconduct during a private photoshoot is much more egregious than an undelivered, "lost," or poorly made prop or costume.

Flip side: Most of the poor reviews seem to be for shady overseas websites, not for individual commissioners. However, there ARE a few threads calling out individuals who sold a custom commission, took payment, then never delivered or outright vanished.

I always [try to] conduct myself professionally, so I personally wouldn't object to a review forum.
The main reason I thought we already had a photographer review forum is because I knew we had a commissioner review. While I don't think slandering is alright, I do think paying someone for a high quality photoshoot and then having them crop you out of the photos in favor of your more skimpy dressed girlfriend is kind of insane.

Positive reviews are something I'd love to leave as well. I've had many photoshoots go perfectly, and I'd love to see a forum where I can look at reviews left by cosplayers to know exactly who to do my photoshoots with at upcoming conventions. I feel uncomfortable paying money for a photoshoot unless I know from other people that it'll turn out great. I don't want to happen to me what happened to my friend. Which is another thing, I don't want others to pay money for a photoshoot and leave disappointed when I could have fixed it with a simple review.

Besides, the commissioner review forum is a thing we've had for awhile. Its not slandering. It's expressing your opinion of something you paid money for. That's a thing we've had about costume makers on this site since I joined the site 5 years ago, and I just assumed it'd be as welcomed in the photographers section as well.

Just complaining, though, about someone you don't like is completely different than this. It'd have to be someone you personally did a photoshoot with, just like with the commissioner review forum. I don't see it being "pointing fingers". I see it being a way of letting others know how the photos will turn out, and if the person in question is safe to be around.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 08:44 PM   #9
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I right like the idea of a review for paid photoshoots. If you're charging for a service then why shouldn't you be held to a professional standard.

Honestly, I've been wrestling with the ops question since I have witnessed some very aggressive photographers in the years I've been doing this. These issues don't always happen at cons and the photogs are not necessarily breaking any laws but I wouldn't want people I care about deal with them.

I'm with nathancarter on this one.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 09:01 PM   #10
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If you pay for a shoot, you have every right to demand professionalism and satisfaction.

I'm not sure this is the site for it, this site honestly seems like it's lost a lot of prominence in the past few years and they also don't allow naming actual names of users like in the commissioner blacklist thread that was closed.

Also don't turn it into a popularity contest, one should review professionalism and not photography. I can already determine pretty quickly whether I like a specific photographer's photography by looking at the pictures they produce, and at the higher levels this becomes rather subjective -- whether I like that particular photographer's style, post-processing, and overall 'look' or not. It's much more useful to review professionalism -- timeliness, respect, flexibility, honesty, etc.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 09:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Access View Post
Also don't turn it into a popularity contest, one should review professionalism and not photography. I can already determine pretty quickly whether I like a specific photographer's photography by looking at the pictures they produce, and at the higher levels this becomes rather subjective -- whether I like that particular photographer's style, post-processing, and overall 'look' or not. It's much more useful to review professionalism -- timeliness, respect, flexibility, honesty, etc.
I agree that reviewing the photographer based on their particular style seems unnecessary. However, I think it's reasonable to review whether the final photos were similar in style/skill to what the photographer showed in his/her portfolio.
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Unread 11-26-2012, 10:28 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by nathancarter View Post
I agree that reviewing the photographer based on their particular style seems unnecessary. However, I think it's reasonable to review whether the final photos were similar in style/skill to what the photographer showed in his/her portfolio.
Yeah, consistency or such.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 07:22 AM   #13
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I agree with Tyke. I don't like this idea. Mainly because, straight off bat on the opening post, the OP is already going about this all wrong.

1. If the photographer was as perverted as you say, you should have quit working with him immediately and reported him to the authorities for sexual harassment. Which leads to my second point, that you never stated by which means you are measuring his actions.

2. I don't want to get into too much detail, but as a community that is based largely on Anime and Manga, which heavily includes genre's and artistic embellishments towards ecchi and fan service, this line can get heavily blurred, especially for westerners. I have seen tons of legitimate semi nude cosplayers and cosplay photographers getting slandered as perverts for shooting 'softcore pornography' by the facebook cosplay group, because they don't understand Japanese culture. This is completely ridiculous, and is a prime example of how this line is extremely ambiguous for those not truly familiar with the artistic reasoning behind this.

I'm not saying your friend was or was not harassed, but your information doesn't give us anything to determine whether his actions were against the law or not, or even perverted; if this is the example you're setting for future reviews it is extremely poor.

3. You made this thread seem all pitch forks and torches from the beginning.

4. This is largely my opinion, but I think the only photographers that should be getting reviewed are those who are getting paid. This is because paid photographers have an obligation to do what is in their contract. Those who are not, really should be able to shoot as they please and should not be getting reviewed for that.

4.5 Photographers who are not getting paid and are looking to post positive reviews/testimonials should do so via their own website, facebook, blog, etc.

5. If a photographers review does come into existence, I believe more debates are necessary; because as it is now, it's far from being reasonable. There needs to be rules, specialized moderators, and guidelines set on what should go in a review. Not just make a thread and have it as a free for all.

Last edited by Mnguyen8097 : 11-27-2012 at 07:38 AM.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 07:46 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathancarter View Post
Just playing devil's advocate for a minute.

I always [try to] conduct myself professionally, so I personally wouldn't object to a review forum.
You, and many others might conduct themselves professionally and fairly, but it is those who do not behave this way, that can cause damage and unfairness.

I have dealt with some cosplayers and photographers who did not seem in touch with reality or fairness, and let their emotions get the better of them. There are plenty of people who don't know the difference between fact and interpretation. I see a recipe for hostility.

Solutions should still be considered. I understand it is good to protect others from a someone who has questionable or unacceptable service, but blasting it out in public seems like over-kill. In most situations, a photographer will work in a limited area for photography. I say, deal with it in the locations where it takes affect, not a world-wide website.

Last edited by brucer007 : 11-27-2012 at 07:53 AM.
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Unread 11-27-2012, 11:02 AM   #15
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One thing that my marketing degree is good for is knowing that the vast majority of people who are likely to review, have had a negative experience. Vast like 5 times more likely to post a negative review than a positive one. I could go into the psyche and reasoning behind this, but you can look it up if you doubt it. Hell, even the first 5 or 6 actual reviews on the commissioner reviews forums are negative reviews. So, a photographer review will inherently become a thread for bashing.

OP still hasn't substantiated the "pervert" accusation and I'm also curious about the cropped picture. Did the photographer remove you from all of the pictures? Is it possible that in the cropped image you or your friend was blinking, looking off camera, or had a "mid-sentence derp look" while the other cosplayer had a great pose?

While we're talking about reviews, why don't we have a "cosplayer review" thread as well? Here we can report incidents to other photographers so they can be sure not to work with said cosplayer. Like if the cosplayer seemed disinterested during the shoot, was unwilling to smile or try new poses or actions, had 0 poses of his/her own to offer, kept answering their cell phone during the shoot, was rude (highly subjective, BUT WHO CARES), demanded that you remove your work from the internet because they don't like being shot from that side, requested perverted poses, tried to force you to take pictures of their friends, edited your work without permission(removing watermarks or other enhancements), AND MORE!!!!!!!
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