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Unread 12-22-2012, 12:06 PM   #16
Fish-and-Chips-Yum
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I understand that you haven't seen anyone become ill from this yet, but in the world of medicine, 7+ years can be a short time. There are some diseases or deficiencies that take over 20-30 years to become noticeable. With risks like cancer and heart disease, I simply don't know why you would take the risk. I'm not trying to berate you, I just want people to be informed before they do something to their body that could potentially hurt them greatly down the road. If you never have to deal with these possibilities, then that's fabulous, but you surely recognize that you're putting yourself at the risk?

It really just rubs me the wrong way when people try to cheat out how the body is supposed to work. Your body was intended to run on carbohydrates, as well as proteins and other nutrients in a balance. Any sort of extreme diet will have repercussions in the long run, whether it be in 5 years, 7 years, or 35 years. If you're still adamant about doing this diet then I wish you the best of luck, though I want people to be aware that just because something works now, it doesn't mean it's perfectly safe with no cost.
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Unread 12-22-2012, 12:39 PM   #17
SeriousTyro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-and-Chips-Yum View Post
I understand that you haven't seen anyone become ill from this yet, but in the world of medicine, 7+ years can be a short time. There are some diseases or deficiencies that take over 20-30 years to become noticeable. With risks like cancer and heart disease, I simply don't know why you would take the risk. I'm not trying to berate you, I just want people to be informed before they do something to their body that could potentially hurt them greatly down the road. If you never have to deal with these possibilities, then that's fabulous, but you surely recognize that you're putting yourself at the risk?

It really just rubs me the wrong way when people try to cheat out how the body is supposed to work. Your body was intended to run on carbohydrates, as well as proteins and other nutrients in a balance. Any sort of extreme diet will have repercussions in the long run, whether it be in 5 years, 7 years, or 35 years. If you're still adamant about doing this diet then I wish you the best of luck, though I want people to be aware that just because something works now, it doesn't mean it's perfectly safe with no cost.
I don't see what the risks are. If LDL and HDL, good indicators of heart disease, become better following LCHF, I don't see why this would be dangerous.

From Dr. Jeff Volek he mentions there is no essential carbohydrate that we need. There is no essential carbohydrate that we need. It is true that in our body, red blood cells, some of other cells of the central nervous system, and the brain need a minute amount of glucose but your body can make that glucose from fat and protein. Those cells also adapt to using ketones. So you can survive from absolutely no carbohydrates.

Of course with this you should consider the long term effects but I'm not totally depleting myself of carbohydrates.

We both have arguments that say it is good and bad but with all this information going around, it is hard for any lay person to discern what information is correct.

I could say the same with the food pyramid. Ever since it's been introduced to the American society, obesity rates has been increasing. Supermarkets have ton of products that were Low Fat. I know this is not a direct correlation as there are probably a ton of other factors that come into play but I think we could both agree on that less sugar in products, especially high fructose corn syrup would alleviate a majority of metabolic syndromes.

Here is a long video on high fructose corn syrup, though you might be busy and might not have time for it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM
Dr. Lustig talks about the interactions of HFCS in the body, which went over my mind. If you have a good understanding of human chemistry I think you would fine this interesting.

From what I've read and experienced myself, I don't see any risk. But if people think that there is some risk associated with this and want to lose weight, they could do it for a bit and see how they feel, lose a bit of weight and go back to their version of a healthy diet. Personally during this summer by following the food pyramid and eating less, working out, I only lost a few lbs. Switching to LCHF I lost quite a bit of weight and other good side effects.

I am glad you're concern about my health. If something is working for you, then there is no need to change it.

Last edited by SeriousTyro : 12-22-2012 at 01:22 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2012, 05:51 PM   #18
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Serious can you give us an example of your daily eating habits?
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Unread 12-30-2012, 02:18 PM   #19
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Sure
Now that it is the holidays and I'm back home home I've been eating whatever my mom's been making. she cooks Shanghainese dishes but i avoid any rice or sweet stuff. Oh how i miss her rice wine.

before going low carb i would be one lazy cook. baked chicken breast with barely any seasoning and brown rice. I got interesting cooking because of low carb so I started making a variety of the dishes. there was a where I bought a 3 pound pack of bacon which lasted for quite a while eating maybe 3 strips of bacon with scrambled eggs .

normally I eat eggs for breakfast prepared in a variety of different styles. scrambled eggs, omelettes, frittata.
or I sometimes eat leftovers from dinner.

for dinner I made meatloaf, chicken breast topped with pizza ingredients, cream soup, broccoli soup, pork chops with caramelized onions, buffalo chicken dip, Chinese broccoli, and a bunch of other stuff.
i usually find things to cook from YouTube foodwishes and Laura Vitalie.

i sometimes don't eat breakfast or lunch depending how my body feels. if I'm at work and I'm a bit hungry I get a salad from the cafeteria.

for morning lectures I usually make sure to have a cup of coffee with half and half. other than coffee I drink water and the occasional alcoholic beverage.

I typed this using a phone so it might be a choppy.
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Unread 12-30-2012, 03:59 PM   #20
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I hesitated to replay so I can await of what you eat. Fair enough, you've adapted the lifestyle of low-carb pretty well; maybe too well. By your diet, I can see how you may feel light-headed during strength training and not during other types of training, and that has to do with the usage of your energy systems. Anerobic burns energy without any oxygen (primarily sugar) and aerobic burns energy using oxygen (primarily fat). Resistance training uses the former, which can be the reason why you might feel dizzy doing so due to lack of glycogen storage, while the latter is fine to you because it's able to give you a constant supply of fuel from your fat stores.

However it is still possible to weight train while still maintaining fairly the same diet; just by decreasing the volume, and in return, increase the intensity (ie heavier weights, less reps), by doing so, it decreases the lactic acid buildup that causes the majority of the problems, while still achieving some progress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish-and-Chips-Yum View Post
It really just rubs me the wrong way when people try to cheat out how the body is supposed to work. Your body was intended to run on carbohydrates, as well as proteins and other nutrients in a balance. Any sort of extreme diet will have repercussions in the long run, whether it be in 5 years, 7 years, or 35 years. If you're still adamant about doing this diet then I wish you the best of luck, though I want people to be aware that just because something works now, it doesn't mean it's perfectly safe with no cost.
The body does run on glucose, but how it gets it can be obtained from either carbs or body fat (via beta-oxidation). It also runs on keytones, which is powered through fat and protein when in ketosis (prolonged fasted state, or lack of glucose). I think the general public is stuck to the direct relationship between carbs and glucose, neglecting the body's ability to burn fat into energy, and how insulin can prevent two things from doing so. At first I was stuck to that thought of the direct relationship between carbs and glucose, then took me a couple of years of anecdotal and behavioural studies of diets outside realized that the body is more better off eating off the lifestyle where agriculture and industrialization didn't exist, and that consisted of whole foods and unadulterated meats (in an ideal secnario, I would try to eat all my meats organic, but it's so damn expensive).
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Unread 01-02-2013, 12:09 AM   #21
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Im not a fan of the ketogenic diet. I like to keep my calories at 30% fat 40% protein 30%carbs
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Unread 01-02-2013, 11:51 PM   #22
Arti
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(I knew I was missing something) I don't recommend it either for people as well. It works well if they have a lot of body fat to lose (~20% for men, ~35% for women), but the benefits begin to diminish when there's less body fat to retrieve. For people who want to get that "ripped" look (which is almost everyone), the amount of effort is too much to prevent catabolism of muscle (a higher ratio of protein to fat is burned for energy, and a high amount of free amino acids (protein) is needed to prevent the need to catabolize skeletal muscle for it)

However, I do like the "zone" dieting as it limits the amount of insulin produced by limiting the amount of carbs to less than 100g, which can be 25-30% of their overall nutrient intake for carbs. With a bit of glucose, it's just enough to provide a quick source of sugars without having to go into ketosis, which can be a problem when dieting to single-digit body fat%.

Last edited by Arti : 01-02-2013 at 11:54 PM.
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Unread 01-08-2013, 04:31 PM   #23
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Arti,

Why do you say going into ketosis can be a problem in single-digit body fat%?

I'm 12.7% atm.
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Unread 01-08-2013, 05:05 PM   #24
Arti
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I'll post this excerpt from Lyle McDonald's "The Ultimate Diet 2.0":

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One problem may be that lean individuals can't make enough ketones to exert a protein sparing effect; this is a consequence of the difficulties in mobilizing fatty acids in the first place. Even during total starvation, when you'd expect ketosis to have the greatest impact, ketones aren't protein sparing in lean individuals (<15% bodyfat or so). Perhaps this is the shining moment for MCTs (Medium-Chain Triglycerides), by producing ketones in larger amounts, we can exert a protein sparing effect beyond simply providing quick fat energy. Assuming protein intake is sufficient in the first place, I still tend to doubt ketosis has any huge advantages in this regards. If it does, it simply hasn't shown up in real world experience.
When you have less fat to begin with, it becomes more difficult to mobilize the body fat because the body needs it as a survival mechanism. In turn, the body resorts to using protein in order to produce the glucose needed. Ketosis is more of a "side-effect" of fat loss for lean individuals due to the high rate of glycosis due to low insulin levels on a low-carb diet.

MCTs are mentioned because they break down faster than Long-Chain Triglycerides (commonly found in meat), and can be mobilized into energy much faster. The former can be found commonly as Coconut/Palm Kernel oil, and butter has a small amount of it as well.

A small amount of glucose provides a small sparring effect (as well as limiting ketosis), as well as increasing protein intake. The former is more efficient. That's why "no carb" is relatively worse than "low carb".

Last edited by Arti : 01-09-2013 at 03:06 AM.
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Unread 01-09-2013, 02:46 PM   #25
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So less body fat -> less oxidation of fat -> less ketones -> less fuel for body -> body gets fuel from protein -> if not enough protein then get from muscles?

To counteract this, consume fast burning fats, i.e, MCTs such as Coconut Oil?

What about simply increasing fat intake, not necessarily MCTs?
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Unread 01-10-2013, 02:41 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SeriousTyro View Post
So less body fat -> less oxidation of fat -> less ketones -> less fuel for body -> body gets fuel from protein -> if not enough protein then get from muscles?

To counteract this, consume fast burning fats, i.e, MCTs such as Coconut Oil?

What about simply increasing fat intake, not necessarily MCTs?
Increasing fat intake will help with the muscle sparring as it has more free fatty acids available, but it defeats the concept of fat loss if too much is consumed. Low-carb diets don't enter ketosis as much unless they cut too much calories, but doing ketogenic diets at a lean state is risky due to the above statements.

Saturated fats (mostly Long-chain Triglycerides) take a different pathway through the body before it can be readily be used as free fatty acids. The energy provided won't be readily available (roughly 3 hours after ingestion). MCT's can be used by the liver directly.

If we were to just increase dietary fat intake, then the body will just utilize any fatty acids from the dietary fat before having to retrieve additional fatty acids from fat reserves. This is typically why you can't simply cut calories as drastic when in a lean state since there is less fat to be mobilized from the body.
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Unread 01-15-2013, 10:56 AM   #27
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Hello, all! I'm new! My first post!
I actually have started making eating changes (rather than dieting) based around a low-carb plan. Generally I keep my carb count around 50-100g on work-out days (M-F), and drop to 0-50 on off-days (Sat & Sun). However, I derive all my carbs from fruits (in the morning) and veggies, and try to make those veggie-portions large. I stick to lean meats like chicken, fish, turkey. I've lost ten pounds with cardio and weight-training in two weeks and am starting to see definition.
As much as I like it, it won't be permanent since my goal in the long run is to bulk up (in order to attain perfect Orc ferocity!!!!) after getting rid of a lot of fat, and that, based on some reading I've done, requires a lot more carbs than a low-carb diet permits, a good mixture of carbs and proteins. Since I'm not here yet, I'm not sure what the carb/protein balance is yet for bulking up, but I can't imagine keeping my carb count this low the rest of my life.
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Unread 01-15-2013, 02:38 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tarbuz View Post
Hello, all! I'm new! My first post!
I actually have started making eating changes (rather than dieting) based around a low-carb plan. Generally I keep my carb count around 50-100g on work-out days (M-F), and drop to 0-50 on off-days (Sat & Sun). However, I derive all my carbs from fruits (in the morning) and veggies, and try to make those veggie-portions large. I stick to lean meats like chicken, fish, turkey. I've lost ten pounds with cardio and weight-training in two weeks and am starting to see definition.
As much as I like it, it won't be permanent since my goal in the long run is to bulk up (in order to attain perfect Orc ferocity!!!!) after getting rid of a lot of fat, and that, based on some reading I've done, requires a lot more carbs than a low-carb diet permits, a good mixture of carbs and proteins. Since I'm not here yet, I'm not sure what the carb/protein balance is yet for bulking up, but I can't imagine keeping my carb count this low the rest of my life.
Once you get to a pretty lean state (<15% according to Lyle) you have enough insulin sensitivity to handle more carbs. The purpose of a low-carb diet is to burn as much fat as possible by limiting the amount of insulin produced, and decrease insulin resistance due to having a low body fat.

Insulin sensitivity is the ability for the body to respond to the food consumed, and return back to its fasted, "fat-burning" state. Think of insulin levels as mountain peaks with each peak corresponding to a meal. High sensitivity would look like jagged spikes on a mountain while low sensitivity would look like a typical peak and valley.

For lean bulking, it's more of a tool than a lifestyle because the satiety of a low-carb diet makes hypercaloric diets difficult to do, let alone the increased benefits of carbs in its ability to produce muscle glycogen with high insulin sensitivity. You're on the right track of increasing carbrohydrate intake on rest days, just don't be afraid of increasing the amount because you're going to have good amount of insulin sensitivity from the workouts and being at a lean state. Just swap them with fat for the workoutdays (ie high protein, moderate carb), and vise versa for rest days (high protein, moderate fat)
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Unread 01-17-2013, 12:27 PM   #29
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I plan on doing this for a little while. No longer than 3 months. I did it for about two weeks and lost two pounds very easily...then a caught a cold and had to eat more food.

Otherwise I mainly try to limit processed food and fast food. I try to stay away from some carbs but I eat vegetables, fruit, and cheeses still. I don't drink milk normally so I am good there. I have a friend doing it a bit more extreme than me and he has lost 35 pounds in three months. I know I am not going to get anywhere near that, since I would be considered underweight then, but I would like to get rid of a little more fat.

I am currently weight lifting at least two days a week but trying for three. So the plan is that once I get to the body fat % I want I would have build up quite a bit of muscle to help maintain my metabolism and keep the weight down. I already have quite a bit of muscle strength. I can easily do ab ripper x from p90x and I have been able to squat 180 lbs. People are always shocked when I tell them how much I weigh because I don't look like I weigh that much.

I know how my body works and I know if I start to encounter problems I will lay back. Once I am done with the low carb I will probably go back to 30-40 (protein)-30 again. But I had such great results in a short amount of time and before it has been very hard for me to lose weight.
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Unread 01-20-2013, 10:06 PM   #30
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Yep, trying to lose weight on the "conventional" diet is really hard and becomes really easy while on low carb.

Additionally on low carb, my blood count and cholesterol levels improved.
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