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Unread 04-10-2013, 11:00 AM   #16
TykeJack
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Essentially we're trying to find a solution for the OP so he/she won't feel sad about not getting paid for their work or not receiving credit for their work. Your suggestion of "give them everything for free" does not address their concerns. My suggestion is a logical and fair solution that would benefit both the photographer and the cosplayer. Of course, you can't retroactively negotiate this for a shoot that's already done, but it does make things easier for the future.

Though it is possible that a cosplayers might work with someone else who will give them everything they want for free, if your work is good enough, this shouldn't be much of an issue. Make your work stand out enough and it won't be easily mimicked by other photographers.
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Unread 04-11-2013, 01:56 AM   #17
MinionsCube
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Thanks for your help everyone Since it was a first time for me, I said they could print one for free (they wanted to use three), but any others there would have to be some sort of small compensation. They haven't replied, but I feel good about my answer.

I should note that this wasn't a planned shoot, it was for free and the image sizes we have are quite large. I guess I just felt like I was getting the short end of the stick. It wasn't about making a profit off this cosplayers prints, it was more about principle.
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Unread 04-15-2013, 05:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by MinionsCube View Post
Thanks for your help everyone Since it was a first time for me, I said they could print one for free (they wanted to use three), but any others there would have to be some sort of small compensation. They haven't replied, but I feel good about my answer.

I should note that this wasn't a planned shoot, it was for free and the image sizes we have are quite large. I guess I just felt like I was getting the short end of the stick. It wasn't about making a profit off this cosplayers prints, it was more about principle.
Good way to handle it IMO
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Unread 04-21-2013, 04:27 PM   #19
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I've also had requests for this recently. My policy for an unpaid (or "collaborative") shoot is that both photographer and model share rights to sell prints. These have to be agreed upon by email or signed release, of course. I provide unpaid models with unbranded high resolution images for prints as long as they agree that:
- model and photographer may both sell prints
- neither may misrepresent the other (model can't claim credit for the picture)
- rights are not transferable
- either photographer or model can terminate agreement at any time for any reason

This seems fair, and if it isn't working out, either person can end the agreement. I would be interested to know what other people (photographers or models) feel about these terms.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 06:27 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Marcus9 View Post
I've also had requests for this recently. My policy for an unpaid (or "collaborative") shoot is that both photographer and model share rights to sell prints. These have to be agreed upon by email or signed release, of course. I provide unpaid models with unbranded high resolution images for prints as long as they agree that:
- model and photographer may both sell prints
- neither may misrepresent the other (model can't claim credit for the picture)
- rights are not transferable
- either photographer or model can terminate agreement at any time for any reason

This seems fair, and if it isn't working out, either person can end the agreement. I would be interested to know what other people (photographers or models) feel about these terms.
They are horrible. It makes no sense to have a contract where either party can terminate the agreement at any time for any reason. If that's the case, don't have a contract then because it's not good for anything. It actually works against the cosplayer because if you, the photographer, cancels the contract, then by law you retain the rights to the images and can sell prints at will while the cosplayer gets nothing. Now, I'm an advocate of photographer's rights, but the way these terms are set up, only serve to act as a false security net for cosplayers and are inherently misleading.

I'm also against giving up rights for the images for nothing in return, but I've already discussed that in this forum and it's more of a personal opinion rather than a matter of fact.
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Unread 04-23-2013, 03:20 AM   #21
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What occurs to me is that it might make sense to set a threshold at which they have to start paying you. Say, if you're taking a 10% cut, say that they have to make $100 of sales before they have to pay or something. That way you get a cut if they do well, but you're not nickel and dime-ing them.

Obviously you always maintain rights to the image as a photographer and any usage by the cosplayer or anybody they work with needs to be cleared. It's never going to be something worth taking to court, but the threat of no longer being able to be photographed by you should be enough if you're worth working with.

As for me, I've kind of given up caring. My work has been reproduced so universally and so many thousands of times that at this point there's not much I can do except enjoy the recognition my photos have gotten.
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Unread 04-23-2013, 05:50 AM   #22
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I personally would ask them to link back to you or your site, or provide your card, everywhere they use the print so you at least get recognition for it.
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Unread 04-23-2013, 06:34 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TykeJack View Post
They are horrible. It makes no sense to have a contract where either party can terminate the agreement at any time for any reason. If that's the case, don't have a contract then because it's not good for anything. It actually works against the cosplayer because if you, the photographer, cancels the contract, then by law you retain the rights to the images and can sell prints at will while the cosplayer gets nothing. Now, I'm an advocate of photographer's rights, but the way these terms are set up, only serve to act as a false security net for cosplayers and are inherently misleading.

I'm also against giving up rights for the images for nothing in return, but I've already discussed that in this forum and it's more of a personal opinion rather than a matter of fact.
You missed the entire spirit of this approach, which is to keep things civil and friendly, and to grant equal rights to the model. This is a powerful right of the model to terminate the contract if the photographer is doing something the model doesn't approve of with her image. As a photographer, you do not have legal rights to distribute your photographs without a model release.
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Unread 04-23-2013, 12:27 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus9 View Post
As a photographer, you do not have legal rights to distribute your photographs without a model release.
Yes you do. I retain all rights to my photographs. I can distribute them, hang them in a gallery, I can, to a certain degree even sell them (yep it's true) without a model release. The photos belong to the Photographer unless the Photographer releases some or all of his/her rights.

What I cannot do is use a persons image to promote/defame something without their permission.
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Unread 04-23-2013, 02:56 PM   #25
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Surfsama is right.

Model release is more for association, you can still sell photos without a model release. As long as you don't associate them with anything else, use it for advertisement or to sell a product, etc.

Most commercial buyers want a model release since they intend to use the photo to advertise or promote their own business or a product made by their business (it is necessary for this).

Most stock buyers want a model release because they will be selling primarily to commercial users.

But selling to a news organization for reportage, or a book publisher to place in their 'coffee table type' photo book, no model release necessary. Even selling prints. Not to say that there aren't exceptions to the last two rules (depending on the nature of the book or how the prints are sold). How do you think street photographers operate -- they can't be expected to get a signed model release for every print or photo they want to sell.
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Unread 04-23-2013, 05:47 PM   #26
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Seems like we have two non-mutually-exclusive sandboxes that we're playing in here:
1) What's the most can I get away with while still staying within the boundaries of copyright and usage laws;
2) What's the most appropriate way to conduct myself so that I maintain a reputation that I'm proud of: professional, easy to work with, quick to honor the wishes and boundaries of my clients and subjects.

I tend to err on the side of #2, and it hasn't bitten me yet.

Legally speaking: Sure, I can use and display an image of you without your permission or even against your consent. But I'm not gonna be "that guy."
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Unread 04-23-2013, 06:09 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathancarter View Post
Seems like we have two non-mutually-exclusive sandboxes that we're playing in here:
1) What's the most can I get away with while still staying within the boundaries of copyright and usage laws;
2) What's the most appropriate way to conduct myself so that I maintain a reputation that I'm proud of: professional, easy to work with, quick to honor the wishes and boundaries of my clients and subjects.

I tend to err on the side of #2, and it hasn't bitten me yet.

Legally speaking: Sure, I can use and display an image of you without your permission or even against your consent. But I'm not gonna be "that guy."
Well, I don't believe anyone here wants to be that person and I'm certainly not promoting the hard-line approach. I was addressing a specific incorrect assumption.
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Unread 04-24-2013, 12:56 PM   #28
FlashBlitzen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MinionsCube View Post
(Sorry if this has been discussed before)

A cosplayer just contacted me asking if she could use a couple of nice photos I took of her to sell prints. This is this first time I've been asked this, so I don't really know how to go about it. I don't make much/any money at the moment with doing cosplay photography, so it kind if makes me a little sad that I wouldn't get credit (she wants the logo off the picture) or a cut of the sale. Has anyone else done this before? How do you go about it? Thank you.


Let me get this straight, she is asking for your permission to cut you out of getting credit AND any proceeds of the sales? Ugh... Call your lawyers. jk prbly not worth it.

As said before, establish the value of your work then ask for that and allow limited usage for a term. The worst thing that happens to photographers making a living at it is "work made for hire". Avoid it like the plague.

Too bad you don't have a contract with language that addresses images the cosplayer can sell... through your site.... With all your credits and info on the back of the print.

Personally, I shoot with this in mind; "What is the expected end result of this image?"
Then I think about how to protect it's value before doing the shoot of course.

Best of luck...
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Unread 04-24-2013, 03:18 PM   #29
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a term. The worst thing that happens to photographers making a living at it is "work made for hire". Avoid it like the plague.
Work for hire doesn't have to be bad, if the price is right.
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Unread 04-24-2013, 03:38 PM   #30
TykeJack
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Originally Posted by Marcus9 View Post
You missed the entire spirit of this approach, which is to keep things civil and friendly, and to grant equal rights to the model. This is a powerful right of the model to terminate the contract if the photographer is doing something the model doesn't approve of with her image. As a photographer, you do not have legal rights to distribute your photographs without a model release.
I didn't miss anything, it's a bad contract. Hopefully after the other ladies and gentlemen of this forum have informed you a little on intellectual property rights, you'll now understand why.
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