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Unread 04-18-2013, 12:05 AM   #1
Midnight Dawn
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Bioshock Infinite question

Now this isn't about the ending, it's actually concerning an idea I had.

[SPOILER WARNING AHEAD].

We know that Elizabeth made sure Cornstalk never comes to be by drowning him to which only the alternate timeline exists where Booker was able to raise his daughter like he was supposed too.

Now it heavily implied in parts of the game that much of Columbia's technology and innovations were based off glimpses inside the tears of what they saw of Rapture.

Now the point I'm trying to get to is simple. Is there a possibility that Anna Dewitt is Eleanor Lamb grandmother?

To my reasoning they are more or less half a century apart from each other. Share similar physical features. Not a lot to go on I know.

Now I'm not asking for a definitive yes or no, just is it possible?
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Unread 04-18-2013, 09:22 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Dawn View Post
Now the point I'm trying to get to is simple. Is there a possibility that Anna Dewitt is Eleanor Lamb grandmother?

To my reasoning they are more or less half a century apart from each other. Share similar physical features. Not a lot to go on I know.

Now I'm not asking for a definitive yes or no, just is it possible?
1) Spoiler tag. Learn how to use it. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet.
2) There's a dedicated video game subforum, where this belongs.



SPOILERS BELOW:

3) And no, there's not. It's been stated that the only influence the previous Bioshocks had on Infinite was that Cornstalk peered into different universes and times, implying that the idea of Songbird came from a Big Daddy. Aside from that and the obvious Rapture nod at the end of the game, Infinite and BS1 are unrelated.
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Unread 04-18-2013, 09:56 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by TheAnarCHris View Post
3) And no, there's not. It's been stated that the only influence the previous Bioshocks had on Infinite was that Cornstalk peered into different universes and times, implying that the idea of Songbird came from a Big Daddy. Aside from that and the obvious Rapture nod at the end of the game, Infinite and BS1 are unrelated.
There are actual several more nods then that. Not only from a structural/character perspective, but also plasmids/vigor (similar to Songbird). Infinite and BS1 are not unrelated, but how they relate is not exactly clear (look up information regarding the fan service at the end of the game). Sorry if i'm being to vague but I can't see any spoiler tag option here.

Also, the ending was lazy and the game was essentially just a series of plot devices. There is a great game hiding under it all, but I fell it needed to be delayed even longer to fully flesh out the story and character arcs, and to implement it all effectively into the game (having to listen to audio logs for pivotal plot elements is weak story telling for example, they should add to the world or give non pivotal information to flesh out the world, taking control away from the player when it doesn't serve a thematic purpose is poor implementation of story and game mechanics, especially given when they do it).

Really for all the people I heard screaming it was amazing or even a game changer the game does a lot wrong and has a sever lack of content, suffers from the game being dumbed down from a mechanical stand point and when compared to earlier games in the series it fells forced at times.

The game is good, but it is also very overrated and the ending is no masterpiece.

As for the OP the only possible family link between Bioshock 1 and Infinite is Booker (etc) and Ryan (etc). I don't want to say why as that would be spoilerific.
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Unread 04-18-2013, 10:14 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAnarCHris View Post
1) Spoiler tag. Learn how to use it. The game hasn't even been out for a month yet.
2) There's a dedicated video game subforum, where this belongs.



SPOILERS BELOW:

3) And no, there's not. It's been stated that the only influence the previous Bioshocks had on Infinite was that Cornstalk peered into different universes and times, implying that the idea of Songbird came from a Big Daddy. Aside from that and the obvious Rapture nod at the end of the game, Infinite and BS1 are unrelated.
1) Sorry, I don't generally make threads so I'm not aware of all it's functions.
2) Any possible way to migrate it?
3) But I'm not talking about Cornstalk's universe. I'm talking about Booker's where Anna was able to grow up like a normal kid to which some years down the road she'd have 'Johnny Topside' which would then go on to Eleanor.

However if there really is no connection, that's fine.
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Unread 04-18-2013, 10:17 AM   #5
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The game is good, but it is also very overrated and the ending is no masterpiece.

As for the OP the only possible family link between Bioshock 1 and Infinite is Booker (etc) and Ryan (etc). I don't want to say why as that would be spoilerific.
Which then reminds me, do choices even matter?
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Unread 04-18-2013, 10:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suntory_Times View Post
There are actual several more nods then that. Not only from a structural/character perspective, but also plasmids/vigor (similar to Songbird). Infinite and BS1 are not unrelated, but how they relate is not exactly clear (look up information regarding the fan service at the end of the game). Sorry if i'm being to vague but I can't see any spoiler tag option here.

Also, the ending was lazy and the game was essentially just a series of plot devices. There is a great game hiding under it all, but I fell it needed to be delayed even longer to fully flesh out the story and character arcs, and to implement it all effectively into the game (having to listen to audio logs for pivotal plot elements is weak story telling for example, they should add to the world or give non pivotal information to flesh out the world, taking control away from the player when it doesn't serve a thematic purpose is poor implementation of story and game mechanics, especially given when they do it).

Really for all the people I heard screaming it was amazing or even a game changer the game does a lot wrong and has a sever lack of content, suffers from the game being dumbed down from a mechanical stand point and when compared to earlier games in the series it fells forced at times.

The game is good, but it is also very overrated and the ending is no masterpiece.

As for the OP the only possible family link between Bioshock 1 and Infinite is Booker (etc) and Ryan (etc). I don't want to say why as that would be spoilerific.
Strongly dissagree on all accounts, but you're totally entitled to your opinions. Also I think we're free to discuss spoilers at this point.


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Originally Posted by Midnight Dawn View Post
1) Sorry, I don't generally make threads so I'm not aware of all it's functions.
2) Any possible way to migrate it?
3) But I'm not talking about Cornstalk's universe. I'm talking about Booker's where Anna was able to grow up like a normal kid to which some years down the road she'd have 'Johnny Topside' which would then go on to Eleanor.

However if there really is no connection, that's fine.
The mods would have to move it. And there's no indication that the unvierse that Anna grow up would be the BS1 universe. Which I doubt, because again, in the realities where Conrnstalk exist, he still peaked into a different universe where Rapture existed.

Honestly, I can't straight up disprove your theory, but there's nothing currently out there than can make me support it.
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Which then reminds me, do choices even matter?

No, which is kind of the point.
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Unread 04-18-2013, 04:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Midnight Dawn View Post
Which then reminds me, do choices even matter?
There are constants and variables. This is one area I really liked.


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Strongly dissagree on all accounts, but you're totally entitled to your opinions. Also I think we're free to discuss spoilers at this point.
You disagree with everything? How else can we explain the Rapture we see at the end (where if you listen you can hear an event from a prior game) and then what does Dewitt use that only Ryan and people sharing his DNA can use? This could be an oversight or otherwise needs a really convoluted explanation, when simpler solutions usually are the best (it was the same Rapture and there is a family link).

Just interested why do you fell the ending worked? Also and more confusing for me, is in what we do you think the games mechanics where not dumbed down? I actually haven't read other peoples opinions yet on the end that went into detail as to why. The reason is the writing in the game up to that point was clever and strong enough for me to give it a few days of thought. Maybe my thoughts on it will change, but it seems to be flawed in so many ways, I mean doesn't what the endings mean for the journey you have been through just make you not want to play it again?

To be clear, Bioshock Inifinite is an excellent game and compared to many the end isn't bad. But compared to the rest of the game it falls horribly short of what I was expecting. Remember how the themes came together at the end of Bioshock and purposefully changed the games mechanics to make a point. I do, I was hoping for something with that level of impact.
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Unread 04-20-2013, 10:54 PM   #8
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The cool thing about an ending like this is that it lets the player draw its own conclusions beyond what the game has showed us. For me, the ending works due to the buildup and its finale. I don't question myself on the mechanics of the Rapture nod at the very end until an official game/media exists to validate it. At this point, it's one of the many doors Elizabeth has access through via her power, everything else is someone's interpretation of the fictional piece --- speculation on the ending (And the game --- everything Suntory is doing) is proof enough that it works.

Nobody is right, no matter how we may think we've got it figured out.

Well, unless you're the author (Which no one here is --- dear lord, this thread reminds me why I avoid gaming forums). I'm interested to know what the 3 DLCs will be about.

And because I can: Nod to Baccano.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 01:31 AM   #9
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The cool thing about an ending like this is that it lets the player draw its own conclusions beyond what the game has showed us. For me, the ending works due to the buildup and its finale. I don't question myself on the mechanics of the Rapture nod at the very end until an official game/media exists to validate it. At this point, it's one of the many doors Elizabeth has access through via her power, everything else is someone's interpretation of the fictional piece --- speculation on the ending (And the game --- everything Suntory is doing) is proof enough that it works.

Nobody is right, no matter how we may think we've got it figured out.

Well, unless you're the author (Which no one here is --- dear lord, this thread reminds me why I avoid gaming forums). I'm interested to know what the 3 DLCs will be about.

And because I can: Nod to Baccano.

PLEASE NOTE, MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD.

This is what I have understood to have occured. Please fel free to correct me if I have made any mistakes or omissions.

Basically the story goes, the Luteces create the technology to create a flying city and the ability to create tears and travel to other dimensions. Comstock is made infertile by the technology and takes Anna who is 'his' baby in another dimension (or the baby of an alternative version of him)as he wants his own blood to continue ruling over Columbia (the reason why this is ties into the religious themes present but I fell is underdeveloped).

Comstock then has Fink sabotage the device the Luteces developed to create tears once he no longer needs them and the Luteces are somewhat assassinated, but is unsuccessful in killing them, rather he unhinges them from space and time. The Luteces then create a tear and continually bring in different versions of DeWitt who had given up Anna to Comstock (122 times) to try and end Comstocks reign and presumably to get revenge (although it is only shown as an experiment, as Robert thinks the constants will end up changing and his 'sibling' sees it as an escape from here the tedium of her existence despite thinking the constants will never change). Something about bringing DeWitt across causes the formation of new memories, hence the importance of the DeWitt you play as is he is successful in ending Comstock and any version of him, and changing what the Luteces probably saw as a constant. Remember the Luteces are not omnipotent, they are trying to figure out how everything works themselves, hence there bets and constant discussion essentially about constants and variables (which is nearly the only thing they talk about).

At the end of the game DeWitt goes through a tear to a baptism where he either rejects it and becomes a Dewitt that lives in poverty and gives up his child Anna, or he tries to wash away his sins and becomes Comstock (note there are many versions of Dewitt and Comstock, hence why DeWitt killing Comstock in Columbia alone was not enough). Hence several different versions of Anna appear and drown DeWitt before the decision to be baptised or not can be made, hence as the decision is not made Comstock does not exist. The question and unclear part is then how can the DeWitt who would have given up his child still exist? Or for that matter how could Anna/Elizabeth exist (a similar issue faced by the Terminator series, well at least until the travesty that was Terminator 3 was released).

It is shown that (or at least strongly implied) the DeWitt who would have given up Anna no longer does is shown in the after credit scene where he wakes up on the day he in previous versio and Robert Lutece is not there. Hence he gets to raise his daughter and the terrors Comstock starts never occur. Does this feed into maybe Anna's daughter being Ryan? The game certainly implies a dna link.

So the only thing that isn't definitive is speculation regarding future events, why only one form of reality is removed or if you assume he isn't the successful DeWitt, in which case why tell this particular versions journey? We could also talk about what where constants and what where variables. I think it is more then safe to say though that the ending was a variable whilst some things where constants (everything up to the coin toss).

The thing that to me hurts the ending, is that the end of the game makes your entire journey as this DeWiit and Elizabeth/Anna no longer exist, which is just an extremely unsatisfying way for a game to end from a character perspective. I don't care about the other versions of DeWitt or Anna as they are not shown or seen. I kind of relate it to the start of Aliens 3 when major characters from Aliens are killed at the very start, which makes there struggle to survive in Aliens a rather deflated experience.

edit: note I haven't covered everything in the game as that would take far more writing, so I tried to make it only what specifically relates to DeWitt and Elizabeth/Anna, largely as that is also where I fell the ending was unsatisfying.

Also, the creation of speculations isn't proof that something works. Mass Effect 3's original ending simply didn't work, hence many speculated to try and come up with theories to make it work (it was kind of sad, people where happier with the idea that the end was just a dream then accept it as it was). Bioshock Infinite ending works if you view the story as being a story of the Lutece 'siblings', but for the reasons I have mentioned I don't fell works given for the characters you actually play as in a satisfying manner.

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Unread 04-21-2013, 08:28 AM   #10
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Your interpretation of the story is pretty close to mine, but there are spots where I disagree:

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Originally Posted by Suntory_Times View Post
as he wants his own blood to continue ruling over Columbia (the reason why this is ties into the religious themes present but I fell is underdeveloped).
I feel there is enough material to assume the Comstock version of Booker remade themselves into a religious, bigoted fanatic in order to "absolve" his sins in a way that make it appear that he was really doing actions related to an higher order. Being a deranged fanatic himself, he believes the only person that can carry "His Word" is someone who shares his blood --- he can't procreate though. He ends up stealing his alternate self's child through Rosalind's device so he has a child that bears "pure" blood relations to him (Remember --- he's a bigot).

However, there's a few mentions of Comstock talking about someone else who ferries sayings to him (Called 'Archangel'), nothing is shown as to who that person may be though.

Anyway, the plan fails though, his wife goes crazy and thinks he got the child by fornicating with Rosalind Lutece, who finds the idea ludicrous. She tells the real version of things to Lady Comstock, who dismisses it. Following his selfish ideals, Comstock gets rid of his wife and places the blame on Fitzroy, causing the emergence of the Vox Populi.

I feel the stealing of Anna/Elizabeth is what ended up giving her powers similar to what Rosalind & Robert are --- but that's my hypothesis as there is no audio log on in-game conversation the supports this past a snippet from Rosalind mentioning that the girl is what she is due to a piece (the missing finger) remaining in her original timeline.

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Originally Posted by Suntory_Times View Post
The Luteces then create a tear and continually bring in different versions of DeWitt who had given up Anna to Comstock (122 times) to try and end Comstocks reign and presumably to get revenge (although it is only shown as an experiment, as Robert thinks the constants will end up changing and his 'sibling' sees it as an escape from here the tedium of her existence despite thinking the constants will never change).
Actually, there is an audio log where Rosalind mentions quite clearly that they are stuck in 'limbo' along the space-time continuum. She has no interest in correcting their meddling with time, as her only desire was(is?) to spend time with her "brother" (Who is really just her in another timeline --- guess she's one of those people who find themselves to be the most enjoyable company, I can relate XD).

Rosalind is a fatalist/pessimist (Dies. Died. Will Die.) and sees only tragedy in revealing the origins of Comstock to Anna and Booker. Whereas Robert is more of an optimist (Lived. Lives. Will Live) that believes there is an untold, better future in righting the wrongs of themselves stealing Anna (Which eventually leads to the destruction of New York as Elizabeth loses faith that she will ever be free of Comstock & Songbird's yoke). Robert delivered an ultimatum to Rosalind --- either they go through the experiment of getting the Booker that is the father to Anna to save her or he parts ways with her. Rosalind goes along with it mentioning that "Where Robert sees a blank page, she only sees King Lear." (Which underlines their dual natures pretty well).

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Something about bringing DeWitt across causes the formation of new memories, hence the importance of the DeWitt you play as is he is successful in ending Comstock and any version of him, and changing what the Luteces probably saw as a constant.
Actually, Robert went through the same thing when he went through the tear to join his alternate reality's sister. His brain was having difficulty coping with the new reality as the memories of past event conflicted with this reality and the facts blurred. This is exactly the same thing that happened with the soldiers/Chen Lin that were close to the tears Elizabeth opened, where they bled and were stricken with dementia as their brains were coping with the traversal through time, confusing between their dead and alive selves.

The game starts in the boat with little preambule because this is exactly what happened. A Booker stricken with grief through several years went through the deal with Robert and, singing the 'mantra' of back then (Bring us the girl --- wipe away the debt), he made new memories for himself. Not recalled the baby, the kidnapping --- just that there is a debt and a girl to bring back.

This is only an experiment of Robert though. They help Booker along so he can save his daughter (Unknown to him through the majority of the game). Comstock heralded the coming of his other self through Rosalind's technology and had the propaganda printed accordingly as is standard for all his prophet business.

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Hence he gets to raise his daughter and the terrors Comstock starts never occur. Does this feed into maybe Anna's daughter being Ryan? The game certainly implies a dna link.
The game spends several times showing possibility --- in one world, Chen Lin is stopped from providing weapons to the Vox Populi, who wage a war of attrition that they eventually lose out. Whereas in another world, Chen Lin got engaged with the sister of Fink's Head of Security, is released --- and goes on to provide for the Vox Populi who eventually overthrow the prophet.

Similarly, in a reality, Booker goes through the baptism and becomes Comstock. Whereas in another, he refuses the baptism and is still haunted by his sins throughout his life.

The Rapture shown might not even have been headed by Ryan. Who's to say it's exactly the same version of it that was in Bioshock 1 or 2? Maybe Anna, not dragged through time and raised properly becomes Jasmine Jolene in Ryan's society that endeavors to remove itself from the wrongs of altruism and collectivism (Well, before these things were the end of Rapture society).

However, it's only hypothesis from a very small segment in the finale used in exposition leading up to the *twist*: Booker *is* Comstock in another reality.

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The thing that to me hurts the ending, is that the end of the game makes your entire journey as this DeWiit and Elizabeth/Anna no longer exist, which is just an extremely unsatisfying way for a game to end from a character perspective. I don't care about the other versions of DeWitt or Anna as they are not shown or seen. I kind of relate it to the start of Aliens 3 when major characters from Aliens are killed at the very start, which makes there struggle to survive in Aliens a rather deflated experience.
The problem is that it's your own perception that undermines the ending --- rather than it being fact that it was bad. I felt that way on the Mass Effect 3 ending --- but more on that later, as you also mentioned it!

The time-bending ending, with characters being other versions of themselves is similar in several ways to a show I watched --- Noein (And, while not as good, the recent movie 'Looper'. which also deals with time). Personally, the journey *was* worth it. Through it, Booker discovered who Comstock was, he found what happened if he was let free, Elizabeth found who she was as well as Booker's. Her antagonist of all these years only being another version of Booker.

Elizabeth has the power of time manipulation, once freed of the siphon that harnesses her power, she sees all the doors, the possibilities --- what is and what can be (The ending make her sound close to omnipotent). Booker is Comstock. Booker is convinced the only way to prevent Comstock from happening is to kill him as he is an infant.

But Comstock is an infant only in mind rather than spirit --- he was never born in a physical way as Zachary, a specific version of Booker became Comstock. She asks him directly before he crosses the threshold --- "Booker --- is that what you really want?". Booker goes through with it.

The ending leaves points unanswered, but it wraps up pretty well still from my standpoint.

The only complaint I have about the ending is the non-Comstock version being drowned to stop the Comstock version from ever happening. As if he had taken his place through the time manipulation --- but if that was the case, Robert's existence would have invalidated by Rosalind's when they themselves travelled through, rather than being separate beings entirely.

Although the soldiers and Chen Lin were obviously only one person with thoughts of different realities, maybe Rosalind had ways to acclimate Robert's existence separate from herself.

Last edited by Kildread : 04-21-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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Unread 04-21-2013, 08:31 AM   #11
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Also, the creation of speculations isn't proof that something works. Mass Effect 3's original ending simply didn't work, hence many speculated to try and come up with theories to make it work (it was kind of sad, people where happier with the idea that the end was just a dream then accept it as it was). Bioshock Infinite ending works if you view the story as being a story of the Lutece 'siblings', but for the reasons I have mentioned I don't fell works given for the characters you actually play as in a satisfying manner.
This is partly why I linked to the Baccano ending --- a story doesn't have a strict beginning or ending --- through imagination you can hypothesize events before or after its real end.

And stories revolving around the fiction of time travel have lots of possibilities. Where does it end? Where does it begin?

The important point is --- does it matter?

(I admit the I did the Baccano link because i see the relation, but it lacks context just dumped there like I did)

The main issue I have with claims that Mass Effect 3's original ending was "bad" is that people are not using their imagination. An entire trilogy, encompassing several major events, characters leading all up to the conclusion is invalidated because the journey ends in death?

It also felt like people didn't *get* it, spawning dumbass memes like this "Wait, you made robots to kill us so we couldn't make robots to kill us?" when it's obvious the game was playing on the fact the Reapers do not eliminate all life. Only the life advanced enough to use the technology to make AIs that *will* wipe out all life (Hence why there are multiple reaper cycles). Except, the Geth's existence if you get Legion on your side shows the 'original civilization' was not entirely right. It's hypothesis.

The original ending was short on the exposition, leaving interpretation up to the player, what their choices led to, what the penultimate decision means for life in the ME universe. Except it shows through the fallout of the ending that players mostly didn't get it, needed the information fed directly in their mouths. ( ifeel the 'Buy DLC!' message pop-up at the end did not help matters --- as gamers are routinely people who think the games they play should cater to themselves).

So the Extended Edition was made into being. With added dialogue covering exactly that from the Citadel AI, with narration overlapping the ending like seen in Deus Ex: Human Revolution.I felt the extended version only put on screen part of what I had imagined to begin with. I'm *happy* Bioware stuck to their original vision and didn't alter the ending, instead only adding details leading to the same conclusion.

They were even clever enough to make the shit Citadel DLC for the people who wanted an 'happy go lucky' fan-jerking fantasy with the ME cast, while making it exist entirely separate from the actual canon conclusion.

Personally, I'm glad games are reaching this level of story-telling, where things aren't anymore a single entity meant to be self-contained, but that leads people to question themselves "en masse" regarding how events could follow. That more media can be made from stories so they arc through several games. This isn't a Capcom-level type of sequel where Wesker/Sigma/Wily just live through 6+ installments always rearing its ugly head for another go.

All of this is fiction, none of it *exist*, but it's making people think about the stories being told --- it's no longer a media that have placeholder plots solely to excuse hours of fighting. (It hasn't been for a long time, but discussion like these are become more frequent, which is *good*)
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