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Unread 02-08-2006, 10:56 PM   #181
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Ok, well, I'm done with replying after this unless something new comes up because I feel we're just going in circles and it really isn't helping me in my situation any. I do appreciate the time everyone has taken to reply to my posts and I look forward to reading new posts by others in the future.
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Unread 02-09-2006, 05:02 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
I see a far greater challenge in being able to compete alongside the likes of Castle Blood or the amazing Mary Alice Ladd than I see derived from a cosplay contest, and I believe a person who can successfully compete alongside such people is probably far more prepared to go to Worldcon, than a cosplayer who has won awards for hopping around onstage in a bathrobe and bunny ears.
I think you're doing something of a disservice to the truly excellent costumers that we all know are out there in the anime community. Not everyone particularly WANTS to compete against "famous" sci-fi costumers, or go to Worldcon; that doesn't mean that those people are "slumming" by choosing to display their anime costumes at anime conventions, nor does it mean that all anime convention awards are tantamount to "hopping around onstage." I doubt any of the stage-hoppers *want* to move into sci-fi style competition, and many of the craftspeople may not either at this time, but they do have that option <i>if that's something they want to do.</i> Not everyone has the same standards or the same path through their costuming career, but that doesn't automatically illegitimize those who go in one direction rather than another.
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Unread 02-09-2006, 08:32 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
ARE BIG REGIONAL CONS SUPPOSED TO HAVE HIGH STANDARDS AND BE LIKE THE ICG?
This is totally dependent on which major regional con you're dealing with. It all depends on the masquerade director. You could have a fantastic MD like Marty Gear at Balticon, or a masquerade director who doesn't know the first thing about running a decent masquerade.

A lot of it is also dependent on whether the MD wants to use the ICG system. Remember; the ICG guidelines are guidelines, and major regional cons don't have to use them if they don't want to, or strictly following them.

I have to interject here. ^_^ "Be like the ICG is such a funny phrase". XD Sometimes I think we loose sight of the original point which is that there is this nifty set of guidelines called the Divisional System, that's a really great way of avoiding discouraging new people in a masquerade, while at the same time having a nifty fun set of bars to shoot for.

It's not about "being like the ICG", you can be any kind of costumer with any genre interest and derive benifits from a system like the Standard Divisional system. The Standard Divisional System is not the ICG. One is a Tool, the other is a Club. (Oh how I had to resist finishing with a joke.)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
FINALLY...MY PERSONAL OPINION...

Although I believe a major regional con is a major regional con, I do see a difference between anime cons and sci-fi cons on an aesthetic level.
(...snipped for brevity...)
I see a far greater challenge in being able to compete alongside the likes of Castle Blood or the amazing Mary Alice Ladd than I see derived from a cosplay contest, and I believe a person who can successfully compete alongside such people is probably far more prepared to go to Worldcon, than a cosplayer who has won awards for hopping around onstage in a bathrobe and bunny ears.
Although I can't comment on your personal experiences, more than to say mine regarding the level of competition overall was much the same locally around 10 years ago, I think I'd have to argue that in many cases and places times have changed.

I know for a fact that there are many people at many anime conventions that are now costuming at a truely outstanding level arguably equal to any of the top costumers in any other fandom, including those who attend Worldcon and Costume Con, (who are drawn from ALL FANDOMS, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Literary, Historical, Anime, and just plain costume lovers)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Koumori
I think you're doing something of a disservice to the truly excellent costumers that we all know are out there in the anime community. Not everyone particularly WANTS to compete against "famous" sci-fi costumers, or go to Worldcon; that doesn't mean that those people are "slumming" by choosing to display their anime costumes at anime conventions,
"Slumming" !! Hahaha. (Amusing phrasing). I don't know why, but that's just funny. XD
Although I like a variety of genres in my costuming, I consider anyone who thinks that "Anime costuming" = "Slumming", really is ill informed.

Once again, say it with me kids, Fandom ,is Fandom, is Fandom. Costuming, is Costuming, is Costuming.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Koumori
nor does it mean that all anime convention awards are tantamount to "hopping around onstage." I doubt any of the stage-hoppers *want* to move into sci-fi style competition,
Let me say for the record, and hell I'll even bold it for sake of clarity,

EVERY FANDOM HAS IT'S "Bathrobes and Bunnyears" PEOPLE, also the "stagehoppers" and "karaoke kids" (you know the ones, those guys and gal who stand on stage for an entire song either lipsyncing and/or dancing badly).
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Unread 02-09-2006, 08:00 PM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
I know you know what I mean, Dawn, but for people who don't know me, I'm going to reiterate, I don't see anime costuming as slumming. ^__^ But I do see stage hopping and bath robes and bunny ears onstage at an anime con/historical masquerade/whatever kind of con as incredibly ridiculous.
And those people who try it will quickly understand that that style doesn't fit in at every convention, and they probably won't do it again. Ideally, they'll be inspired and educated by what they see at different types of conventions. If you go to Worldcon or what have you, and present an unironic bunny-hop, people will applaud politely and move on, and you'll get to see everything else that your fellow costumes are presenting. And you'll still be welcomed, and encouraged to keep costuming and keep trying. Your presentation may not fit in, but you'll know better for next time - so I don't think discouraging people whose major experience is at anime cons from participating in larger con masquerades is helpful. How are novice costumers supposed to learn and find inspiration, if not by watching and talking to others who have been in the game longer? Competing at a large convention isn't like presenting a dissertation; it's not something one should only attempt at one's personal pinnacle of achievement. I don't think that helps anyone. I don't think enough cosplayers are interested in making the leap to larger venues as it is, and I think we should encourage each other to take that kind of risk.

Disclaimer: I tend not to care much about competition or other competitors, and to regard masquerades as learning opportunities, so my opinion is necessarily colored by this view.
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Unread 02-25-2006, 05:44 PM   #185
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Interesting discussion here. Just to briefly summarize, the main thing I got out of the one MD's post is that perhaps there needs to be a seperate explanation of the Guidelines for competitors - perhaps something that needs to be addressed. The Guidelines, as written, are actually more for the benefit of the MD, rather than the entrant. Hmmmm. Have to bring that up to the committee sometime. I believe an update has either been released relatively recently, or will be released soonish (don't remember), but it's still a pretty dense document.

As someone has rightly pointed out, there'll never be a standardization of judging simply because the whole experience is subjective. That's why the Guild calls them "guidelines" and makes no effort to try to get people to accept them as "rules". But the guidelines are the result of 20+ years of experience from people trying to help people keep from re-inventing the wheel. The whole thing about cosplayers being different is only so because they're younger and many don't have the patience or interest in learning the fine points. They just want to know the facts that immediately relate to them - and I can't necessarily fault them for that.

I admire Saeto's earnestness in taking the time to get into competition at general SF cons. The one thing she's trying to help do is keep people who might have an interest in competing outside of an anime con from having an awful experience and never coming back. Koumori assumes that anyone who is willing to learn and adapt will come back. I agree. Anyone who might be upset that they didn't get an award -- well, that's their issue. We can't help them all. One is better to go into a competition not expecting anything. And it's the competition's MD responsibility to make things as fair as possible.

Costume-Con's masquerade(s) are still competitions, but since the audience and judges are the competitor's peers, the focus is a little different. The philosophy is more "excellence deserves an award". Rather than saying "you're a winner", it's more "we like what you did".
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Unread 02-28-2006, 08:59 PM   #186
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Proposed revision of the ICG guidelines is available...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buddycat
Interesting discussion here. Just to briefly summarize, the main thing I got out of the one MD's post is that perhaps there needs to be a seperate explanation of the Guidelines for competitors - perhaps something that needs to be addressed. The Guidelines, as written, are actually more for the benefit of the MD, rather than the entrant. Hmmmm. Have to bring that up to the committee sometime. I believe an update has either been released relatively recently, or will be released soonish (don't remember), but it's still a pretty dense document.
The final draft of the revised guidelines developed and proposed by the committee (I was a member) is viewable at http://www.costume.org/guidelines-committee/draft3.html

They are written with the MD in mind, but this version should (we hope; it was a major goal of the committee) be far more understandable to competitors, as well. The ICG will be voting on whether to accept the new revision at Costume-Con 24 in May.

The masquerade/cosplay rules for Anime Los Angeles 2 were based on this revision of the guidelines; if you want to see what an implementation based on them can look like when applied to an anime convention competition, I believe they are still posted on the ALA site. There was also some discussion about the implementation in both the ALA livejournal community and the convention's webforums, where I explained some of the choices Andy and I made when implementing them into the competition rules.
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Unread 03-04-2006, 05:01 PM   #187
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Good question:

Yes, since Worldcon is out of the country that year, and it is the alternative North American venue, it will be an International convention.
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Unread 04-30-2006, 04:00 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Admin
You've hit on an important topic. The thing is, nobody knows. Ask ten conventions what "Journeyman" and "Professional" mean, and you'll get ten answers. The anime convention circuit (in the US at least) seriously needs to come up with a set of judging standards quickly that all conventions can sign off on, otherwise masquerades will continue to become nothing more than a way to keep a couple thousand people occupied on a Saturday night with something to do until the J-Rock concert is set up.
I agree with him fully.
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Unread 06-06-2006, 12:27 AM   #189
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At the ICG meeting at Costume Con in Des Moines, IA, on May 26th, 2006, the former more narrowly-defined "Guidelines for International-Level Masquerades or Competitions" were rescinded by majority vote, and the new more-inclusive "ICG Guidelines: Ensuring Fair Competition" were officially adopted in their place.

As stated:
The purpose of these guidelines is to assist masquerade directors in writing and implementing rules to ensure fair competition in the masquerades they run. These guidelines have been developed to serve international masquerade competitions, but they can be adapted and applied when writing rules for any costume competition at any convention.

While competition names may vary by event and venue (including names such as "Cosplay Competition" and "Costume Contest"), for consistency's sake we will refer to all staged competitions as "Masquerades."

A "Masquerade" is a staged show where entries are presented before an audience. These presentations may take the form of fashion walks or short theatrical vignettes. Entries may compete for awards in two major areas: presentation (based on how the costumes appear when presented), and workmanship (based on close examination of the costumes backstage).


So - The upshot is that these optional guidelines (developed by people with 20+ years of experience with competitions) exist in order to provide suggestions (based on concepts that have been long-tested to work well) to Masquerade Directors for coming up with THEIR OWN sets of rules for THEIR competitions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As was mentioned above, Anime LA's Masquerade Rules, for example, were devised along the suggestions in the current (new) ICG guidelines, and had 2 categories for workmanship and presentation: Novice (basically for newbies, as a "may still need some protection" category) and Open.

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Unread 07-25-2007, 03:40 PM   #190
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I have a question on classes, I think this is the right place to post it. ><

I recently competed at AnimeNEXT, and I entered my Nagase costume for Craftsmanship Judging, the judges thought my costume was very good so they bumped me up to Journeyman level.

I ended up winning best Journeyman, which was fantastic!

However, does this mean I am now a journeyman cosplayer? Because I have never won a Novice award before.

Thanks so much!
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Unread 07-25-2007, 04:42 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mew_Pudding View Post
I have a question on classes, I think this is the right place to post it. ><

I recently competed at AnimeNEXT, and I entered my Nagase costume for Craftsmanship Judging, the judges thought my costume was very good so they bumped me up to Journeyman level.

I ended up winning best Journeyman, which was fantastic!

However, does this mean I am now a journeyman cosplayer? Because I have never won a Novice award before.

Thanks so much!
What I usually tell people to do is get in contact with the Cosplay Department from that convention and have them write a simple letter stating that the judges chose to bump you up to the next division. This way you can show this was their decision and that you were indeed competing as a Novice. Then we will treat that Best Journeyman as Best Novice if you still fall within our guidelines for Novice based on awards and skill level. If you cannot get a letter (or have someone from their cosplay department contact Ohayocon's cosplay department - email, PM, etc.), then please e-mail Ohayocon's Cosplay Department Head (cosplay.ohayocon@gmail.com).
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Unread 01-24-2008, 08:40 PM   #192
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i have a similar question: i went to a con back in sept, its still kinda small, but i won a judges choice award, because they thought my costume was well done for a first time. should i count this as winning an award and bump up to journeyman? honestly im just lacking some self confidence. im working really full out this year to enter journeyman, but im kinda afraid my experience would end up making it a bad match for journey man. x.x
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Unread 01-24-2008, 10:01 PM   #193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterdancer View Post
i have a similar question: i went to a con back in sept, its still kinda small, but i won a judges choice award, because they thought my costume was well done for a first time. should i count this as winning an award and bump up to journeyman? honestly im just lacking some self confidence. im working really full out this year to enter journeyman, but im kinda afraid my experience would end up making it a bad match for journey man. x.x
According to Ohayocon's division guidelines...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohayocon Website
Major Awards are considered Best in Show, Best in Division, or the like. Minor Awards are considered Honorable Mention, Merit Award, Judge’s Award, and the like. Only awards that you have won at conventions are counted. Craftsmanship Awards count for Craftsmanship Competition Only. Performance Awards count for Performance Competition Only. Awards won in a Hallway Contest are NOT counted. Awards won at events (e.g. clubs/organizations, stores, 1-day mini-conventions, etc.) are NOT counted. If you placed as ANYTHING except Honorable Mention at WorldCon or Costume-Con, you MUST compete in the Master Division.
So depending on what other types of awards you won and where...because any awards won as a Hallway Contest or at events such as clubs/organizations, stores, 1-day mini-conventions, etc., are NOT counted. Only awards won at conventions (typically 2+ full day events).

This all said, these are GUIDELINES. Since there is no way to accurately reflect skill, we use awards and number of costumes as guidelines to help people determine their skill and place themselves in the best division for their skill. If ever unsure of where you "belong," contact the coordinator of the event. Most will try to help you in determining the best division based on skill (usually by reviewing awards and won at what type of events, number of costumes and what kind, etc.).
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Unread 06-24-2008, 04:49 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterdancer View Post
i have a similar question: i went to a con back in sept, its still kinda small, but i won a judges choice award, because they thought my costume was well done for a first time. should i count this as winning an award and bump up to journeyman? honestly im just lacking some self confidence. im working really full out this year to enter journeyman, but im kinda afraid my experience would end up making it a bad match for journey man. x.x
Judges Choice, (given by the judging panel), and a Judge's Award, (given by a solo judge), are different things. The first is generally considered a major award, often very close to, or instead of Best In Show.

Your description of the reason it was awarded sounds more like a type of Honourable Mention, but I can't be sure without more details. Could you give more details?
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Unread 06-27-2008, 07:19 PM   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterdancer
i have a similar question: i went to a con back in sept, its still kinda small, but i won a judges choice award, because they thought my costume was well done for a first time. should i count this as winning an award and bump up to journeyman? honestly im just lacking some self confidence. im working really full out this year to enter journeyman, but im kinda afraid my experience would end up making it a bad match for journey man. x.x
Every competition has their own guidelines for divisions and what they count as Major and Minor awards, so the first thing to consider is what the guidelines are for the competition you are about to enter into. The next thing you must take in consideration is the award "hierarchy" that was used in that particular competition where you won the award. Many of the larger or more formal competitions will have the Best in Show at the top award, then division awards as the next largest (Best in Master/Journeyman/Novice Division or Best in Adult/Youth Division), then lastly Honourable Mentions (Judge's Awards, etc.). However, some may use Judges' Choice as the top award and then have other awards below that. Finally, I would consider if it was a convention or an event. Some competitions don't count events in the awards. When I say event, I'm talking about a 1-day mini-con, a costume contest at a local anime store or library anime club, etc. When I say convention, I mean a 2-3 day event that typically has 1000+ attendees at the least. There are many factors to consider and many of them really depend on the guidelines for the competition you are about to enter. If you don't know where you belong, talk to the Cosplay Department Head/Coordinator. I find it very helpful to keep a list of awards I have won in my presentation binder. This makes it easier when filling out registration forms. I include the Character's Name, Series/Game/etc., Convention/Event Name where I received the award, and Date I won the award. Keep your Craftsmanship and Performance awards separate, or note it somehow on your list, as some competitions don't include awards received for other reasons if you are entering into Craftsmanship.
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