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Unread 08-22-2005, 11:59 PM   #16
Jaina Solo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I've seen some anime masquerades allow walk-ons, but I don't find walk-ons to be particularly entertaining. I don't get the sense that many anime fandom audiences find walk-ons entertaining either by the lack of enthusiastic laudations (sometimes even silence or blank stares). I do feel that walk-ons would need to be extracted from general Masquerade proceedings and put into a separate "fashion show competition" event, which most anime cons do not do.
I've only been attending anime conventions since 2004, but one thing I've noticed that bothers me is the emphasis on skits. I was always under the impression that a masquerade was about showcasing and awarding costumes, and it seems that it has turned into something more like a talent show. I mean, some conventions do give several awards for costume construction, but I know Fanime only gave out ONE technical award (and the winners were very deserving), and the rest of the awards were given to skits.

Since when has it been about being funny? Why are we awarding less for hard work on an intricate costume and more on who is the best actor? Why is winning a Best In Show out of the question for someone who isn't part of a skit?

Anyway, I agree in that some walk-ons can be rather boring. But I've also seen some GREAT walk-ons that are Best In Show worthy, and they shouldn't be discounted.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 12:16 AM   #17
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mhm, I full heartedly agree with Jiano Solo. I won't repeat much but i've definitly seen some well-made and thought out costumes who didn't get much (or any) attention.

Keeping the audience's attention is kinda difficult if you happen to do a walk-on after some flashy performance. I have a hard time figuring out a skit, so I end up with a lil ol boring walk-on -_-`
Some may not be the most interesting to watch, but I go to these cosplay competitions to see what skills are out there. If my post was kinda rantish, forgive me..I'll leave now :P
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Unread 08-23-2005, 01:04 AM   #18
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In Otakon, at least, it seems that walk-ons are almost pointless, unless one wanted to have their own music or short dialogue. That's because there's a separate hall costume contest. Plus, all those who participate in the Saturday hall contest are required to go to the Masquerade and participate in a 'fashion show,' which is practically a walk-on. *shrug*

And I've never heard of an "Out of Competition" category for cosplay. Why would anyone want to spend so much time working on something that wouldn't be in a competition?
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Unread 08-23-2005, 09:23 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
I think it's just the mentality of anime fans. They're younger and want to be entertained - which to them means skits, laughs, yaoi and the like. But those who are more interested in the costumes can appreciate a dramatic, solo walk on presentation, even if the anime audience is bored silly by it. I've seen walkons go over well at more established conventions, usually sci-fi oriented.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. It is my feeling that many anime fans want to be entertained, and anime cons are catering to them by structuring the masquerade towards skits. From a business perspective, they are doing what the majority of customers want. If the customers wanted to emphasize costumes, I think anime con management would listen.

At AnimeNEXT 2005, walk-ons were simply the "get on stage, present the costume (no special pose or music in some cases), and walk off." The audience reaction was muted. They obviously didn't care for it.

At Otakon 2005, walk-ons were put into the fashion show (which was subject to craftsmanship judging prior to this), but the fashion show was placed right after the other acts that were skit-based. I prefer this sequencing, but of course, the problem with this fashion show is that the entrants were already judged prior privately, and not judged on the stage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
The problem with putting walk-ons to separate events is that they usually don't get the same chance to win best in show, even if their costumes are exquisite and the presentation is well thought out. It forces people into performing and falling into the "I need a skit with funny dialog" to compete, which I feel shouldn't have to be the case. It rules out a lot of solo competitors.
Current rules and structure of many anime masquerades already lean towards skits. AnimeNext 2005 Hall Cosplay competition did have a separate "Best of Weekend" separate from the masquerade, which had "Best in Show." The winners of the Hall Contest went on-stage to receive their award (as well display a picture of the costume on a screen), and if they happened to be in costume, then that would be the time the audience would see costumes up close.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
I think another issue could be in the purpose of the cosplay competition. If it's for entertainment of the skit kind (cosplay skit contest, or if 90%+ or so of the judging points come from performances, for example, and time limits are long (2-3 minutes?!)), then walk-ons have no place. If it's a competition more aimed at the costumes (costume points have a fairly large percentage, smaller time limits (<1 min)), then I think walk-ons should most definitely be allowed. The purpose of the competition should also be looked at.
I think many anime cons have more or less settled on Hall Cosplay for craftsmanship and masquerades for skits. While masquerades do have craftsmanship awards, I do think they play second fiddle to performance awards. I also think the judges for Hall Cosplay are better at paying attention to details than masquerade judges. Masquerade judges have to keep track of performance and craftsmanship, so I think they cannot judge well, unless the entrant is a walk-on. There is too much information to track. If you look at Fansview's listing of Otakon 2005 masquerade awards, the craftsmanship awards are strangely categorized, but the performance awards seemed to be more straightforward.

In addition, I have heard that some masquerades awarded craftsmanship awards to entries that had clearly inferior costumes than another entry (i.e. cardboard armor vs. fiberglass armor). So, I think masquerade judges are not equipped to handle craftsmanship judging given the implicit emphasis on the skit. I think the best costume entries end up in Hall Cosplay instead, since the judges can handle it there.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 12:23 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I wholeheartedly agree with this. It is my feeling that many anime fans want to be entertained, and anime cons are catering to them by structuring the masquerade towards skits.
As I see it, the problem is more that anime fans want both stupendous costumes AND an amazing skit to go with them. This, frankly, is rather hard to deliver, especially on a consistent basis. While there are people who are skilled in both the craftsmanship and skit-writing aspects, I find that most cosplayers tend to fall more heavily toward one side or the other of the costumer vs. actor divide. (I, for example, suck at coming up with skits 90% of the time.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
At Otakon 2005, walk-ons were put into the fashion show (which was subject to craftsmanship judging prior to this), but the fashion show was placed right after the other acts that were skit-based. I prefer this sequencing, but of course, the problem with this fashion show is that the entrants were already judged prior privately, and not judged on the stage.
There is no way to effectively judge craftsmanship from stage distance. So since the audience would be extremely bored by the craftsmanship judges examining each costume closely on stage, there is no logical way to approach the problem except to judge them privately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I think many anime cons have more or less settled on Hall Cosplay for craftsmanship and masquerades for skits.
You and I are clearly not attending the same cons, then. Most cons I attend either have no hall cosplay contest at all, or have one that is extremely informal and has no judging, which leaves those of us who are really interested in craftsmanship no option but to enter Masquerade and rack our brains to try and come up with a skit. This becomes increasingly difficult if for example one happens to be a solo entry...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Masquerade judges have to keep track of performance and craftsmanship, so I think they cannot judge well, unless the entrant is a walk-on. There is too much information to track. If you look at Fansview's listing of Otakon 2005 masquerade awards, the craftsmanship awards are strangely categorized, but the performance awards seemed to be more straightforward.
This depends entirely on what con you attend. The conventions have such wildly different methods of judgng that it's really inadvisable to make such generalized statements.

Not all Masquerades will have experienced craftsmanship judges; not all Masquerades will give adequate time for the judges to do their job; not all Masquerades will even allow close-up craftsmanship judging at all. There are cons which insist on giving out craftsmanship awards despite having no judging for them, which makes no sense. This is not a generalized "you can't judge craftsmanship effectively in a Masquerade setting" problem, it's a specific implementation problem and varies from con to con.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 12:47 PM   #21
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This post doesn't particularly agree or disagree with anything that's being said... rather, I wanted to voice my own opinion over something I read earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaina Solo
Since when has it been about being funny? Why are we awarding less for hard work on an intricate costume and more on who is the best actor? Why is winning a Best In Show out of the question for someone who isn't part of a skit?
Otakon awards for the masquerade this year were as follows: Best Performance, Best Craftsmanship, and Best Overall. My boyfriend and I performed our skit for fun, not actually expecting to win anything, and were rather pleased to be able to come away with Best Novice Performance as Drunk Lee vs. Neji.

The funny part about this is that neither of us are really good at sewing. THe majority of my costume was hot-glued. The only truly intricate part of our costumes were our Naruto headbands, which were actually hand-made and not bought.

However, this does not mean we put little work into the skit. Quite the opposite: our skit came from several weeks of choreography, practice, and running around outside in the mud. Additionally, we possess 4-5 years of martial arts background.

My point is this: the Otakon setup for the masquerade offered my boyfriend and I, sewing dummies, our own chance to shine. Not because of the costumes, because that wasn't what our skit was about, but because we wanted to bring Rock Lee and Neji to reality as much as we could. The skits, in my view, are a way to bring the characters we worship to life in their own way. Subsequently, I believe hard work for a skit can in many cases deserve as much attention as hard work put into costumes.

Just my own newbie masquerade thoughts. ^^
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Unread 08-23-2005, 01:44 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoshikage
There is no way to effectively judge craftsmanship from stage distance. So since the audience would be extremely bored by the craftsmanship judges examining each costume closely on stage, there is no logical way to approach the problem except to judge them privately.
Then here is the strange part: Why bother with craftsmanship awards for the masquerade when that same con offers a Hall Cosplay?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hoshikage
You and I are clearly not attending the same cons, then. Most cons I attend either have no hall cosplay contest at all, or have one that is extremely informal and has no judging, which leaves those of us who are really interested in craftsmanship no option but to enter Masquerade and rack our brains to try and come up with a skit. This becomes increasingly difficult if for example one happens to be a solo entry...

This depends entirely on what con you attend. The conventions have such wildly different methods of judgng that it's really inadvisable to make such generalized statements.
Why don't people simply go to cons that support Hall Cosplay, at the very least? I'll agree with you that it seems cons are not consistent whether to offer craftsmanship judging or not, but I would think people eventually have to vote with their wallets and simply not patronize cons that do not have the venues they want, unless distance and cost to attend such cons are prohbitive. There are so many anime cons out there now, so I hope there are some cons that have venues people want.

The demographics for an anime con are not quite the same as the demographics for an ICG-sanctioned con. There are different needs for both types of audiences.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 03:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Then here is the strange part: Why bother with craftsmanship awards for the masquerade when that same con offers a Hall Cosplay?
I think because, as I said, people want it both ways. Also, there is the problem that some costumes may be impressive, gorgeous, and wonderfully made... and absolutely unsuited for hall wear. If you can't move very well in it, or see, or eat, or whatever, but you still want to be judged for craftsmanship... well, what then? Some costumes are designed to be presented on stage, but that doesn't mean that their makers want to be excluded from the opportunity to have their craftsmanship recognized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Why don't people simply go to cons that support Hall Cosplay, at the very least? I'll agree with you that it seems cons are not consistent whether to offer craftsmanship judging or not, but I would think people eventually have to vote with their wallets and simply not patronize cons that do not have the venues they want, unless distance and cost to attend such cons are prohbitive.
That last sentence sums up the problem quite nicely. Most of the cons that are easier for me to get to are not the sort that offer cohesive Hall Cosplay contests, which makes things difficult - and even if they did, it doesn't solve the aforementioned problem of stage costumes vs. hall costumes. So I think that there is little obvious choice but to continue trying to improve the implementation of craftsmanship judging and awards at Masquerade events, rather than simply relegating the craftsmanship end to the hall cosplay.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 04:20 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoshikage
Also, there is the problem that some costumes may be impressive, gorgeous, and wonderfully made... and absolutely unsuited for hall wear. If you can't move very well in it, or see, or eat, or whatever, but you still want to be judged for craftsmanship... well, what then?
At AnimeNEXT 2005, the costumer who won Best of Weekend Hall Cosplay (see fansview.com) had full-size Ein the dog costume from Cowboy Bebop. The costume could not move easily (the person was hobbling in it), and it must have been very hot (the person took off the head and drank water many times). Eventually, some staff at the con was able to obtain a staff escort for this person to the Hall Cosplay contest area to be judged.

It sounds like this is a logistics issue that just needs to be planned out by both the costumer and the con. I don't think this is an impossible task.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hoshikage
Some costumes are designed to be presented on stage, but that doesn't mean that their makers want to be excluded from the opportunity to have their craftsmanship recognized. ... it doesn't solve the aforementioned problem of stage costumes vs. hall costumes.
What type of costumes are designed for the stage? I don't understand this.

Excellence in craftsmanship should be recognized, but I don't understand how some costumes need a stage to demonstrate excellent craftsmanship. It sounds like to me that the costume is optimized for the stage, but it would look inferior in any other lighting or setting. How is that an "excellent" costume?

It is my opinion that excellent costumes are recognized by people regardless of the setting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoshikage
So I think that there is little obvious choice but to continue trying to improve the implementation of craftsmanship judging and awards at Masquerade events, rather than simply relegating the craftsmanship end to the hall cosplay.
If one is not the head of the cosplay department at a con, I don't think the rules are going to change unless a massive block of people petition the cosplay department to modify the judging rules. Have you talked to some people who share your views and try to sway your local cons?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
The appeal in having a hall costume contest and craftsmanship awards in the masquerade lies in the fact that the contests are suited to different tastes. Not everyone wants to perform a walk-on onstage in the masquerade in order to get judged by the masquerade people for craftsmanship, while some people do.
In looking at the masquerade craftsmanship rules at some cons, the masquerade costume judging is done before the entries go on the stage, so isn't that judging process the same as the one used in Hall Cosplay, where the judging is also done up close and personal? The on-stage portion of the masquerade craftsmanship rules seems moot, so the only motivation for entering the masquerade is for entrants to get into the spotlight momentarily. But this momentary fame can be achieved for the Hall Cosplayer winners by asking them to come up to the stage to accept their awards.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 07:02 PM   #25
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Re: Costumes designed for stage performance - it's not about looking inferior close up. You don't see this as much at anime cons, granted, but at some of the ICG events, I have seen costumes that were actually multi-stage affairs, things that look at first glance to be quite normal until the moment on stage where the costumer reveals the other part of the piece. Cloaks that turn into wings or sunset skies, for example, or other pieces that transform. This sort of transformative costume is not the kind of thing that's best displayed in a hall setting.

Speaking from my own experience, when I wore the Fairy Park Statue onstage, I was on a pedestal to provide extra dramatic height and look more like a statue - and the extra height allowed the Statue to "crumble" at the end of the skit, because the wings collapsed around me as I "fell" and they would not have cleared the ground if I hadn't had that extra height boost. I did try wearing the costume in the halls later - but the overall look just wasn't as effective without the pedestal. In fact, because of the way the costume was designed, I looked shrunken, shorter than I actually am. So in some cases, there really are design cues that one makes intending all along for them to be a critical part of a stage performance.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 08:01 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoshikage
Re: Costumes designed for stage performance - it's not about looking inferior close up. You don't see this as much at anime cons, granted, but at some of the ICG events, I have seen costumes that were actually multi-stage affairs, things that look at first glance to be quite normal until the moment on stage where the costumer reveals the other part of the piece. Cloaks that turn into wings or sunset skies, for example, or other pieces that transform. This sort of transformative costume is not the kind of thing that's best displayed in a hall setting.
Ah, I understand now the argument you and Saeto are presenting. The costume may be part of a special presentation to relate to a theme or message or it has special features that require it to be in action on stage.


Speaking from my own experience, when I wore the Fairy Park Statue onstage, I was on a pedestal to provide extra dramatic height and look more like a statue - and the extra height allowed the Statue to "crumble" at the end of the skit, because the wings collapsed around me as I "fell" and they would not have cleared the ground if I hadn't had that extra height boost. I did try wearing the costume in the halls later - but the overall look just wasn't as effective without the pedestal. In fact, because of the way the costume was designed, I looked shrunken, shorter than I actually am. So in some cases, there really are design cues that one makes intending all along for them to be a critical part of a stage performance.[/quote]


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Costumes do not need a stage to show off excellent craftsmanship. Excellent craftsmanship can be seen up-close in person, but in order to gain a full appreciation of a costume, it is necessary to show it onstage to demonstrate the effectiveness of concept. Telling a workmanship judge what inspired you only goes so far.
In the examples you have given, wouldn't the presentation of the costume on stage be a performance?

Do ICG conventions and non-anime conventions give awards for performance, or are the masquerade awards for the total package (costume craftsmanship and presentation = Best in Show)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Requiring a costume that gets judged for craftsmanship go onstage in a masquerade is not so the costumer can have the temporary gratification of cheers and applause. It is so the people in the audience can see the beauty behind the ideas and the creativity of concept. However, since the anime masquerades have a different audience who expects different things from the cosplayers, this point is lost on many people at anime cons. Different audience, different expectations than the Guild.
I agree with this.

----------------

Then, based on these viewpoints, I must say that anime costumes are rather "restrictive" from a creative standpoint. Few people have effectively taken an anime costume and delivered a unique presentation to highlight the outfit.

Since anime costumes remind its audience of the character, the audience probably expects the wearer to realize the character through acting, rather than focusing on the costume itself.

Only a few anime series have costumes that would offer symbolic presentations or a unique feature only fully realized when on the stage (i.e. How many ways can you uniquely present a typical ninja outfit or school outfit? Not many, I think). In addition, Guild conventions allow original costumes, so this would allow more opportunities for unique presentations or special costume features.

Thanks for explaining the premise of the Masquerade as done by non-anime conventions.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 09:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
ICG masquerades have separate award categories: awards for workmanship and awards for presentation, so workmanship and performance are awarded separately.

I am not sure how Balticon (a guild con) awarded Best in Show; Best in Show Workmanship went to a girl named Gaia, who had an amazing historical dress, but Best in Show overall went to Castle Blood. I am going to assume it was for his presentation, because his Best in Show is listed as a presentation award under the Balticon masquerade winners, but it could have been for the "total package". He clearly had the best workmanship and stage presentation of us all. None of us were able to come close.
The categorization sounds different than what a typical anime con uses: one category (hall cosplay) to award workmanship and one category (masquerade) to award both workmanship and performance. That means workmanship is awarded about twice more often than performance.

Uh, why is there Best in Show "Overall," but no Best in Show Performance?
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Unread 08-23-2005, 09:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Uh, why is there Best in Show "Overall," but no Best in Show Performance?
Some large masquerades might award a best in show in performance and a best in show in craftsmanship, but smaller ones tend not to.

As far as "walk-ons", a good "walk-on" IS entertaining. It is normally done in such a way as to show off the character being portrayed, not merely the costume. It may be short and usually (though not always) dialogueless, but only a complete amateur who has never been told or seen what makes a good walk-on would just walk on and then off.
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Unread 08-23-2005, 09:59 PM   #29
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Okay, a lot has been going on here so I'll try to address it.

Eriol, you seem to be misunderstanding how ICG masquerades work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
For one thing, "Out of competition" isn't well-stated in the ICG guidelines. It gets a passing mention in one sentence for Fantasy and Sci-Fi competitions under the "Junior/Youth" section. So, how do people realize it is even a category?

Also, most anime cons do not have an "Out of Competition" category. The closest things I've heard about are a "fashion show" or simply no competition at all (Ushicon in Texas). "Out of Competition" for most anime cons is simply walking around at the convention in costume, not an actual event.




The rules are being enforced to the letter. The action is perhaps stupid, but the action is technically correct. This is the problem of "the spirit vs. the letter of the law."
No, actually, those are NOT the rules. It says clearly on the ICG masquerade guidelines that people can compete up as they like; there are no rules forcing people to compete at a lower level. Any anime masquerade director who has used this excuse has made it up themselves, and for no good reason IMO.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Sarcasm-hime, on your site, you define the Masquerade as follows:
"A Masquerade is the costume contest held at many fandom conventions (sci-fi, fantasy, media, anime, etc.) in which costumers show off their hard work to an audience. They may do this via a short performance such as a skit, dance number, or simple walk-on. The purpose of entering a Masquerade is to display your costume and to put on an entertaining and pleasing presentation." [Emphasis mine]

I've seen some anime masquerades allow walk-ons, but I don't find walk-ons to be particularly entertaining. I don't get the sense that many anime fandom audiences find walk-ons entertaining either by the lack of enthusiastic laudations (sometimes even silence or blank stares). I do feel that walk-ons would need to be extracted from general Masquerade proceedings and put into a separate "fashion show competition" event, which most anime cons do not do.
As mentioned by others, walk-ons do not have to be boring. I've seen some fabulous 'walk-ons' where somebody with an impressive costume used music and posing to best show off their work, and the audience was certainly entertained. Of course walk-ons don't always work best with really simple costumes, but that's why I urge people to judge what is a costume that will look good onstage and what isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
What type of costumes are designed for the stage? I don't understand this.

Excellence in craftsmanship should be recognized, but I don't understand how some costumes need a stage to demonstrate excellent craftsmanship. It sounds like to me that the costume is optimized for the stage, but it would look inferior in any other lighting or setting. How is that an "excellent" costume?

It is my opinion that excellent costumes are recognized by people regardless of the setting.
As mentioned by others, costumes that are large and unwieldy, or ones that show some message or transformation, are 'designed for the stage'. For example I wouldn't wear a costume with a giant wingspan in the halls; there are many costumes I will only make if I will be attending a convention where I can show them off in a masquerade, as they'd be unsuitable for hall wear. Proper ICG competitions have SEPARATE JUDGES for workmanship judging, which is done backstage in the greenroom before the entrants go onstage.

Frankly I fail to see why we should, as you seem to imply, give masquerades over to presentation-only entries and then create effectively a duplicate of the backstage greenroom judging as a separate "Hall Cosplay" event. Hall cosplay awards have traditionally been simply as a way to acknowledge people who were uncomfortable with going onstage. It isn't meant to replace workmanship judging. If I have a big fancy costume that's difficult to move in but would look very impressive onstage, and I have a simple solo presentation that effectively shows off how impressive the costume is, what on earth is wrong with that? It seems you're trying to say that fancy costumes belong in the hall rather than in a masquerade, which is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
The categorization sounds different than what a typical anime con uses: one category (hall cosplay) to award workmanship and one category (masquerade) to award both workmanship and performance. That means workmanship is awarded about twice more often than performance.

Uh, why is there Best in Show "Overall," but no Best in Show Performance?
ICG competitions award both presentation awards and workmanship awards. So there is a Best in Show (which means presentation) and Best in Show Workmanship. Presentation judges, however, also take into account how the costume looks. So no, workmanship is not being awarded twice; workmanship awards are given by a judge that examines the costume up-close, whereas the Performance awards are given by a panel of judges who only see the costumes onstage.


....Basically you seem to be saying that anime cons do things differently, and I'm saying there is no reason for them to do so, because the ICG system can work just fine at any kind of convention (as we have proven at Anime North).
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Unread 08-23-2005, 11:14 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
No, actually, those are NOT the rules. It says clearly on the ICG masquerade guidelines that people can compete up as they like; there are no rules forcing people to compete at a lower level. Any anime masquerade director who has used this excuse has made it up themselves, and for no good reason IMO.
My phrasing was not clear in that. It's not that the ICG's rules were being followed to the letter. It's the con's rules that were being enforced to the letter. I am aware that the ICG guildeline state that an entrant can compete up.

I'm sorry that my phrasing was messed up on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
Frankly I fail to see why we should, as you seem to imply, give masquerades over to presentation-only entries and then create effectively a duplicate of the backstage greenroom judging as a separate "Hall Cosplay" event. Hall cosplay awards have traditionally been simply as a way to acknowledge people who were uncomfortable with going onstage. It isn't meant to replace workmanship judging. If I have a big fancy costume that's difficult to move in but would look very impressive onstage, and I have a simple solo presentation that effectively shows off how impressive the costume is, what on earth is wrong with that? It seems you're trying to say that fancy costumes belong in the hall rather than in a masquerade, which is ridiculous.
Perhaps I need to go to a non-anime convention. For me, the state of anime costumes is such that most anime costume do not need to be on stage. They are either too simple or don't have a good presentation/walk-on to present the costume in a meaningful light. That is why I have this unusual view of masquerades and awards. I simply did not understand your (the collective ICG advocates) until everybody here started to explain these concept. I saw what the ICG guidelines were, but I couldn't figure out why they were like that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
ICG competitions award both presentation awards and workmanship awards. So there is a Best in Show (which means presentation) and Best in Show Workmanship. Presentation judges, however, also take into account how the costume looks. So no, workmanship is not being awarded twice; workmanship awards are given by a judge that examines the costume up-close, whereas the Performance awards are given by a panel of judges who only see the costumes onstage.
So, performance judges don't get to see the costume up close? Then, the green room that others are mentioned is for craftsmanship judging?

By your statements, then I would have to conclude anime cons are repeating the craftsmanship awards twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
....Basically you seem to be saying that anime cons do things differently, and I'm saying there is no reason for them to do so, because the ICG system can work just fine at any kind of convention (as we have proven at Anime North).
I think anime cons do things differently. Just look at how many anime conventions still do it the non-ICG way. If I had this misinformed concept of whythe ICG guidelines exist, I'm sure many more in the anime fandom don't understand them or its justifications either. Maybe the anime audience in the majority just wants to be entertained and could care less about costuming. (i.e. the number of people who think making a costume can be done cheaply, giving commissioners headaches)

Maybe some cons do know about the ICG guidelines and simply don't care, because they don't want to accept another body's guidelines, even if the outside guidelines are superior. Human pride and stubborness is pretty strong. Look how much you all had to write before I started to understand the justifications of the ICG guidelines and the award categories. Convincing anime masquerade directors is probably not going to be easy, and in my opinion, it is easier to patronize a different con that supports ICG guidelines or has a saner awards policy. Just as sci-fi cons have been around for 30+ years and have matured, I expect anime cons to require just as long before the "best of breed" policies appear.

Thank you all for explaining your views. It's evident you are all passionate about your costuming and sane awards giving.
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Last edited by Eriol : 08-23-2005 at 11:19 PM.
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