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Unread 08-24-2005, 01:07 PM   #31
Kaijugal
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My goodness, where to start? *chuckles and grins sheepishly*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
For one thing, "Out of competition" isn't well-stated in the ICG guidelines.
Strangely it seems to be a bit mangled on the website. Here's the definition from the handbook , it's the same as we've posted on the Anime North website: " Purchased or rented costumes may not be entered in competition for awards, but may be shown on stage in the Out-Of-Competition Division. "

Presumably as more below the border conventions started adopting the ICG Standard Divisional System that information would be common knowledge among costumers and masq staff/masq fans. Not to mention more readibly available on the Masq Rules pages on Convention Websites.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Also, most anime cons do not have an "Out of Competition" category. The closest things I've heard about are a "fashion show" or simply no competition at all (Ushicon in Texas). "Out of Competition" for most anime cons is simply walking around at the convention in costume, not an actual event.
Most do not, but slowly more are adopting them. Our three most local conventions Anime North, Canadian National Expo, and Northern Anime Festival , for example, do. Anime Evolution on Canada's west coast does, but they call it "Non Competing Entry".
A other notable cons that have adopted the ICG structure, (but are in the U.S.) come to mind, they are Nekocon, and Katsucon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Sarcasm-hime, on your site,
Our site; as well as Xiola's. (my contact info regarding running masquerades is at the page you quoted). *grins*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
you define the Masquerade as follows:
"A Masquerade is the costume contest held at many fandom conventions (sci-fi, fantasy, media, anime, etc.) in which costumers show off their hard work to an audience. They may do this via a short performance such as a skit, dance number, or simple walk-on. The purpose of entering a Masquerade is to display your costume and to put on an entertaining and pleasing presentation." [Emphasis mine]

I've seen some anime masquerades allow walk-ons, but I don't find walk-ons to be particularly entertaining. I don't get the sense that many anime fandom audiences find walk-ons entertaining either by the lack of enthusiastic laudations (sometimes even silence or blank stares). I do feel that walk-ons would need to be extracted from general Masquerade proceedings and put into a separate "fashion show competition" event, which most anime cons do not do.
Often walk ons are not entertaining it's true. By the same token often skits are not entertaining either. In the realm of the hellishly boring I much prefer walk ons as they generally end sooner. I'm sorry if you personally have been cursed with some bummer walk ons.

They can be quite spectacular really. The winners of the Canadian National Expo the past two years have both been single individuals doing walk ons, both quite intense, engaging, and dramatic.

Often the best walkons have a shock, or a thrill, a short but engaging soliloquy, an atmospheric voice over and music, or a one line gutbuster of a joke that make them sparkle.They CAN BE DONE, and THEY ARE DONE. The art of a good walk on is a tricky one it's true, but it's an art that like any other needs to be practiced. By excising them from the masquerade you are both inhibiting a potential avenue of growth for new preformers and and clipping the wings of the skilled solitary costumer. As well you are blinkering the audience to the potential of finding joy in a presentation that is out of the ordinary.



-------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Current rules and structure of many anime masquerades already lean towards skits. AnimeNext 2005 Hall Cosplay competition did have a separate "Best of Weekend" separate from the masquerade, which had "Best in Show." The winners of the Hall Contest went on-stage to receive their award (as well display a picture of the costume on a screen), and if they happened to be in costume, then that would be the time the audience would see costumes up close.
And many do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
While masquerades do have craftsmanship awards, I do think they play second fiddle to performance awards. I also think the judges for Hall Cosplay are better at paying attention to details than masquerade judges. Masquerade judges have to keep track of performance and craftsmanship, so I think they cannot judge well, unless the entrant is a walk-on. There is too much information to track.
Hahaha. I invite you to come backstage at one of our masquerades and tell, Jacqui Ward, Bard Schofield, or even Sarcasm-Hime and myself that we are not able to pay attetion to detail. Or how about accompany Saeto and tell that to Ricky Dick, Marty Gear, or Tristin Citrine ? I don't think that opinion would be very well recived.

The Workmanship, (or craftsmanship as you call it), is judged ahead of the masquerade showtime. The contestants are interviewed and inspected by the workmanship judge(s). Generally one has attained a certain level of achievement in the costuming community before one is asked to judge.

You are obviously speaking from personal experience/ perception. Upon re-reading I'm wondering if there has been no prejuding backstage in the competitions you're refering to. (Which would be a bummer).

To be fair, I invite you if you are ever attending attending one of the masquerades I'm involved with to come backstage and see how this is done in an ICG setting. It might soften up your opinion a bit, and at very least you may find it interesting or amusing.

I'm sorry I do not know what your experiences are as a costumer/judge/observer etc so I make this offer openly with the assumption that you have not attended workmanship judging at an ICG style convention.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
In addition, I have heard that some masquerades awarded craftsmanship awards to entries that had clearly inferior costumes than another entry (i.e. cardboard armor vs. fiberglass armor). So, I think masquerade judges are not equipped to handle craftsmanship judging given the implicit emphasis on the skit.
Was there workmanship prejudging in this case?

It's really hard to pass judgement on a judges, (or judging panel's), decision
unless you know the whole circumstance under which the decision was make, (which is unlikely). Often the judge(s) has some information that the audience does not, i.e. the costume was primarily a commission, it was falling apart backstage, it was a resubmission of a previously worn costume that snuk past the registars/masquerade director, etc. While I'll be the first to admit that judges are far from infalliable, I will in the same breath conceed that I have seen many unpopular yet well founded awards decisions made in the years I have been judging. Unless you know what the judges know, your opinion is just that an opinion, an uninformed opinion.

I have in more than one occassion in the past disqualified contestants from awards because they were competing ineligiable costumes, i.e. blatently cheating.

* Last year I was privy to a event where a fiberglass commission was NOT caught out, but if it had been and passed over for awards I'm sure there would be many people ranting about the "judges not knowing what they're talking about"

There is a reccomended practice called "Post Mortem Availability". That means that after the awards are given out, and often for the remainder of the convention, it's part of the judges job to be available to a)give proceedural explainations. That DOES NOT MEAN to defend thier decisions but to give information that may be helpful to the audience, i.e. "Yes we did see all the recreation documentation but it was not required for anyone in the Young Fan division." Alot can be gleaned in a post mortem.

b) to give private advice within reason, i.e. points that could be improved, what impressed the judge about winning costumes, etc, always to be delivered with tact. *Note; There is always a rule of confidentiality meaning one judge never tells a contestant that they lost because judge A hated this or that. What's said in the judging chambers, stays in the judging chambers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
The demographics for an anime con are not quite the same as the demographics for an ICG-sanctioned con. There are different needs for both types of audiences.

(The generation that crafted the ICG rules as you see them today did so over many years and the system has been in service almost an equal number of years. The people who crafted these rules have not been perpetually 40-something, they were young at the beginning too.

I'm willing to give this new generation a chance to enjoy the fruits of that labor with minimal growing pains.

I give the younger demographic the credit of trying it with an open mind. I belive that young people are capable of enjoying more than soundbites and panty shots.

And before anyone protests I say this as an Anime Fan from the (oh god I hate to say it) 70's who was a teen when I attended my first ICG style masquerade.


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Last edited by Kaijugal : 08-24-2005 at 01:13 PM.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 01:08 PM   #32
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HOLY KAU THIS IS LONG -_-" Sorry. *wry grin*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I think anime cons do things differently. Just look at how many anime conventions still do it the non-ICG way. If I had this misinformed concept of whythe ICG guidelines exist, I'm sure many more in the anime fandom don't understand them or its justifications either.
And many do it the ICG way, but not the majority yet.

The reason that so many of them do things differently, as you point out, is that many of them have been completely unaware that there was this wonderful system developed and they have therefore been forced to re-invent the wheel, each on thier own.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Maybe some cons do know about the ICG guidelines and simply don't care, because they don't want to accept another body's guidelines, even if the outside guidelines are superior. Human pride and stubborness is pretty strong.
On this I have no doubt that you have hit the nail on the head and I totally agree. *chuckles*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Convincing anime masquerade directors is probably not going to be easy, and in my opinion, it is easier to patronize a different con that supports ICG guidelines or has a saner awards policy

Some directors will be hard to convince, others convince themselves. Some have already been convinced, and some will never be convinced.

My aim is to educate everyone, give them the benefit of my small experience, and give them all the the information they need to make an informed decisions. My goal is to make a fair and enjoyable, and unproblematic as possible, masquerade community for all costumers.

If anything in this post has helped further those goals then retyping this sucker twice due to a power crash has been worth it. ^_^""

Cheers!
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Unread 08-24-2005, 01:24 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Perhaps I need to go to a non-anime convention. For me, the state of anime costumes is such that most anime costume do not need to be on stage. They are either too simple or don't have a good presentation/walk-on to present the costume in a meaningful light. That is why I have this unusual view of masquerades and awards. I simply did not understand your (the collective ICG advocates) until everybody here started to explain these concept. I saw what the ICG guidelines were, but I couldn't figure out why they were like that.
Please do come to a non-anime convention that uses ICG guidelines! The best way to demonstrate how and why the ICG guidelines do work is to see them in action.

I agree, by the way, that many of the anime costumes that we currently see at cons do not need to be shown onstage; in fact, that's one of the reasons I compete so rarely (I don't feel my costumes generally benefit by being shown from a stage and are better seen close up). Some costumes lend themselves well to stage presentation, some don't; and by the same token, someone with a talent for presentation may be able to show a plain costume to excellent advantage by combining it with a really good show. The trick is in being able to determine into which category you fall.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 01:52 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Perhaps I need to go to a non-anime convention. For me, the state of anime costumes is such that most anime costume do not need to be on stage. They are either too simple or don't have a good presentation/walk-on to present the costume in a meaningful light.
Yes it's sometimes difficult with some of the more strict guidelines, i.e. conventions that allow ONLY anime costumes, no manga, videogame, live action,japanese historical, or original creation. You sometimes see the same things over and over again, or people are forced to use the more "dailywear" character costumes, i.e. jeans and tank top. Hopefully things become a wee bit more flexible or we're all likely to burn out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
So, performance judges don't get to see the costume up close? Then, the green room that others are mentioned is for craftsmanship judging?
Yes in essence that is correct. Although the Greenroom is the general staging/waiting area for all the entries, which are snuggled into thier own "dens" to get ready, practice, watch the live feed until it's thier turn, there is an area set aside for the workmanship judge to call over the groups/individuals one at a time and interview and inspect them prior to the masquerade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
By your statements, then I would have to conclude anime cons are repeating the craftsmanship awards twice.
At some conventions yes.

Here is a quick example of how awards are decided here:

The Workmanship judging is done backstage by workmanship judges as described previously. These judges are also part of the regular judging panel during the presentation phase of the Masquerade.

Usually there is a general score sheet. The GSS was passed along the judges table after the entry had completed thier act and left the stage. The score sheet has the Act Name, Entry Number, and a poloroid of the group for future reference. (no other information is present such as the names of the people in the group. The masquerade director has all the information and the judges do not require it) A common GSS has a scale of 1-10 for each judge on the panel, 10 being the highest and 1 being the lowest. After each judge has marked the sheet the clerk adds the score. *The judges are genearlly provided with a notepad an pen each to make futher notes about each entry as they see fit.

When the judges adjourn this is how things gernally proceed:

A) Score is confirmed (remathed, sometimes a judge wishes to hire or lower the score as an afterthought, that is completely permissable.)

B) The clerk sorts the scores into piles by division, highest score on the top

C) The judges look first at all the highest scores without regard to division to see if they can reach a consensus on Best In Show. (The Score is a GUIDELINE not an absolute!), and judges are heavily encouraged to refer to thier notes as well as the score. The entry that scores highest will not neccessarily be Best In Show.

There may be a strong difference of opinion, which can be resolved by giving two Bests (If they happen to be of two completely different style of costumes i.e. Recreation and Original design, or better yet Solo and Group entry), or by waiting until all the potential candidates have been discussed. Or if too evenly matched by reaching a consensus that no Best In Show award should be given. (From time to time Best In Show and Judges Choice are awarded along side each other, often Best In Show being more reflective of huge audience reaction and Judges Choice being a reflection of the judges appriciation of the more complex combined technical merits of the entry).

D) The pile for each division is then evaluated. There is often a natural break in the scores with those above notably more impressive than those below. This makes it easy to tell the potential award winners. In any case, the entire pile should at least be discussed on a yes/no basis, to allow for any changes in heart a judge may have had after seeing the entire show.

E)The judges then discuss each entrant that any one of them feels should be considered for an award with the first being the workmanship judge(s).
Again, they may choose to start by determining Best In Class or wait till all canadates have been discussed.

f) As an award winner is identified, an award name may be determined at that time. If there is not pre-determined award title, i.e. Best in Class, and the panel is stumped over an appropriate name, it is best to go on and come back to the problem name after the others are decided.

G) The same proceedure is followed for all skill divisions.

H) After all the awards are determined, the order the awards should be read is decided. Traditionally the order is Young Fan (Jr costumer 13and under), Novice, Journeyman, Artisan and Master. Within each division the lowest award is read first leading up to Best In Class.The workmanship awards are read first up to Workmanship Best In Show, the presentation awards second to BEST IN SHOW OVERALL . Judges' Choice takes precedence over all other awards but Best In Show.

All judging forms are destroyed/disposed of after use!


I hope you find this somewhat helpful.

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Unread 08-24-2005, 02:03 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Strangely it seems to be a bit mangled on the website. Here's the definition from the handbook , it's the same as we've posted on the Anime North website: "[i] Purchased or rented costumes may not be entered in competition for awards, but may be shown on stage in the Out-Of-Competition Division.
I have to wonder why the ICG website is not up in sync with the handbook. I'm a bit annoyed how websites never get updated in a timely fashion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Presumably as more below the border conventions started adopting the ICG Standard Divisional System that information would be common knowledge among costumers and masq staff/masq fans. Not to mention more readibly available on the Masq Rules pages on Convention Websites.
Some cons don't display their complete list of rules, even if they came from the ICG guidelines (no link to ICG either). Established costumers may know this, but anime cons continue to attract new entrants, who aren't sure about how a particular con's rules work, like the person who started this thread. This makes me feel that some cons are still not putting enough effort into full disclosure of the rules.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
A other notable cons that have adopted the ICG structure, (but are in the U.S.) come to mind, they are Nekocon.

Didn't Saeto say that Nekocon causes entrants to compete down, which is contrary to the ICG guidelines? She won't go to Nekocon, because of that strange rule.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Often walk ons are not entertaining it's true. By the same token often skits are not entertaining either. ...I'm sorry if you personally have been cursed with some bummer walk ons. ... .They CAN BE DONE, and THEY ARE DONE. The art of a good walk on is a tricky one it's true, but it's an art that like any other needs to be practiced. By excising them from the masquerade you are both inhibiting a potential avenue of growth for new preformers and and clipping the wings of the skilled solitary costumer. As well you are blinkering the audience to the potential of finding joy in a presentation that is out of the ordinary.
Yes, Saeto and Sarcasm-hime also alluded to those reasons. I no longer dispute that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Hahaha. I invite you to come backstage at one of our masquerades and tell [ICG staff and costuming verterans]....
I have no gripe with those who know what they are doing. The ICG judges and experienced costumers know what is going on. I'm specifcally targeting anime masquerades, which I feel do not exhibit the same level of polish in procedure.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
You are obviously speaking from personal experience/ perception. Upon re-reading I'm wondering if there has been no prejuding backstage in the competitions you're refering to. (Which would be a bummer).
My opinions are only as an observer, sitting in the audience. I cannot judge, because I am not qualified to do so. My particular interest in discussing masquerades, World Cosplay Summit, and other competitions has been in trying to understand the rules development process (why does this rule exist?), the judging process (how do the judges judge?), and the rules implementation process (are the rules applied consistently and properly?).

It is evident that I have formulated inaccurate opinions about masquerades in general, but I am glad that people here are trying to explain how the ICG system works and how judging is normally done. Right now, I feel that if I have stirred so many responses from the ICG camp, then there are tons of anime con attendees and staff who don't understand judging either.

For a long time, I have viewed the judging process as some "black box" that is not explained very well to the end user. While I don't expect judges to defend their decisions, the process and judging criteria should be transparent to the end user. How do the judges judge a costume? What do they look for in a costume? These questions are never adequately explained on some con's websites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
To be fair, I invite you if you are ever attending attending one of the masquerades I'm involved with to come backstage and see how this is done in an ICG setting. It might soften up your opinion a bit, and at very least you may find it interesting or amusing. ....I'm sorry I do not know what your experiences are as a costumer/judge/observer etc so I make this offer openly with the assumption that you have not attended workmanship judging at an ICG style convention.
This would be a good offer, as it would be an educational experience from the end user perspective to see how masquerades work from backstage. Then, I can connect-the-dots between the rules and how things are actuated. I am simply an end user in the audience who happens to be interested in the logic and philosophy of the masquerade rules. I haven't made any costumes of my own, nor have I judged, so I'm about as far removed from the whole masquerade as one could get (short of not attending the con...heh)

Alas, Canada is a bit too far for my tastes, but I appreciate your gesture of goodwill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Was there workmanship prejudging in this case?
Well, from my underestanding, many anime cons have a Hall Cosplay and a Masquerade. In the Hall Cosplay, I know the judges look at costumes up close and personal and ask the costumer questions. Anime masquerades generally also have craftsmanship awards, but I have no idea if those judges do any prejudging backstage.

Unless I misunderstand Saeto and you, in a typical ICG con, there is a crafstmanship category and a performance cattegory. In the performance category, the judges look at the how the costume works on the stage, but they may not look at the costume up close before the entrant goes on stage.

The craftsmanship judges look at a costume up close, and this is generally held before the masquerade.

Can the same costume be entered in both craftsmanship and performance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
It's really hard to pass judgement on a judges, (or judging panel's), decisionunless you know the whole circumstance under which the decision was make, (which is unlikely).
True. I think some of the "what the hell did they award that?" anime audience sentiment stems from cons failing to disclosure their criteria and procedure fully before the actual masquerade starts. So, some people are left wondering how the judges could rule in that manner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
There is a reccomended practice called "Post Mortem Availability". That means that after the awards are given out, and often for the remainder of the convention, it's part of the judges job to be available to a)give proceedural explainations. That DOES NOT MEAN to defend thier decisions but to give information that may be helpful to the audience, i.e. "Yes we did see all the recreation documentation but it was not required for anyone in the Young Fan division." Alot can be gleaned in a post mortem.

b) to give private advice within reason, i.e. points that could be improved, what impressed the judge about winning costumes, etc, always to be delivered with tact. *Note; There is always a rule of confidentiality meaning one judge never tells a contestant that they lost because judge A hated this or that. What's said in the judging chambers, stays in the judging chambers.
I have not seen post-mortem sessions done at anime cons I have visited or am aware. I'm sure a few anime cons have this, but I think most do not. Some of the topics in the post-mortem session you state could also be posted on the con's website, as explanations of the judging process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
I give the younger demographic the credit of trying it with an open mind. I belive that young people are capable of enjoying more than soundbites and panty shots.
It's slowly getting better. There is still usually at least one skit in an anime masquerade whose focus is in fanservice or yaoi/yuri without much meaning.

-------

About these score sheets, Kaijugal...what criteria is generally on these sheets? I understand that the score sheets may be different from con to con.

Also, how long does deciding on the winners take? Do they have a day or only a few hours? Many anime cons have the results of their masquerade within an hour after the masquerade ends. In Shoujocon 2004, the results of the anime masquerade were actually announced the day after it was held. This would have afforded the judges more time to think through the entries.

What is the Artisan skill level? ICG guidelines list Youth, Novice, Journeyman, and Master. Why was their a need to create the Artisan skill level?

Judges' Choice awards take precedence over all awards except Best in Show? What about the other Best awards?

Is this how the award hierachy looks like in general?

Best in Show Overall
|
Judge's Choice Awards
|
Best Workmanship <-> Best Performance
|
Best in (Skill) Class <-> Best in (Performance) Class
|
Nth Place (Skill) Class <-> Nth Place (Performance) Class
|
Honorable Mention and other "Excellence" Awards

(<-> means the same level)


---------

Everybody has provided a lot of information. I should take some notes, so this stuff isn't lost in the threads.
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Last edited by Eriol : 08-24-2005 at 02:38 PM. Reason: fix grammar
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Unread 08-24-2005, 02:21 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koumori
I agree, by the way, that many of the anime costumes that we currently see at cons do not need to be shown onstage; in fact, that's one of the reasons I compete so rarely (I don't feel my costumes generally benefit by being shown from a stage and are better seen close up). Some costumes lend themselves well to stage presentation, some don't; and by the same token, someone with a talent for presentation may be able to show a plain costume to excellent advantage by combining it with a really good show. The trick is in being able to determine into which category you fall.
Ditto. I didn't compete at Anime North in 2003, as my costume was a very simple kimono that wouldn't look very impressive onstage, and I had no brilliant ideas for a presentation, so I chose not to enter the masquerade that year. I think more anime fans need to do that - take a hard look at their costume/presentation and decide if it is really stageworthy or not. It would certainly raise the overall quality of masquerades, to say the least.

However when I have a huge, elaborate costume that I can only wear for a couple of hours before succumbing to pain and/or heat exhaustion, I would certainly want to show it off onstage. My Windy costume (an anime costume, btw) is an example of that - I had big wings that made it difficult to sit down, a long dress that made walking difficult, and a big headdress that gave me a headache. I did a simple solo presentation that effectively showed off how fancy the costume was, and it got me awards...but I haven't worn the costume since as it's not suited for hall wear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Unless I misunderstand Saeto and you, in a typical ICG con, there is a crafstmanship category and a performance cattegory. In the performance category, the judges look at the how the costume works on the stage, but they may not look at the costume up close before the entrant goes on stage.

The craftsmanship judges look at a costume up close, and this is generally held before the masquerade.

Can the same costume be entered in both craftsmanship and performance?
I think you misunderstand a bit. When people fill out their entry form for the masquerade, they check a box which asks whether or not they wish to be judged for workmanship. Then, when everyone is in the green-room backstage getting ready for the masquerade, they will go up to the workmanship judge and have him/her examine their costume up close. Then they go onstage when it's their turn, where the performance judges watch the whole masquerade. So by default everyone is judged on performance; workmanship judging is an optional addition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
For a long time, I have viewed the judging process as some "black box" that is not explained very well to the end user. While I don't expect judges to defend their decisions, the process and judging criteria should be transparent to the end user. How do the judges judge a costume? What do they look for in a costume? These questions are never adequately explained on some con's websites.
I have judged both workmanship and presentation, and the criteria depend on the level that the person/group has entered in. For example my expectations of a Novice are not as high as those of a Master. If I were judging a Master costumer I would expect all seams to be impeccable, high-quality tailoring and/or prop construction, fancy jewellery, extra doodads such as electronics/lights, etc. Choice of fabrics, excellence of construction, these are all things to take into consideration. As for presentation - does the presentation get its message across clearly? Does it drag on too long? Is it entertaining? Is it consistent and well-planned? Does the person stay in-character the whole time? (I've seen a number of people do great walk-ons in character and then slouch offstage) Is the costume really impressive-looking onstage and does the presentation highlight this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
About these score sheets, Kaijugal...what criteria is generally on these sheets? I understand that the score sheets may be different from con to con.
At the cons at which I've judged, there is very little on the actual score sheets; it is assumed that the judges, being experienced costumers, know what to look for. I'm sure that's not necessarily the case at all conventions. The score sheets are merely a preliminary way of dealing with a large number of contestants so that we can 'weed out' the entries that we know will not get awards and concentrate on the quality entries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Also, how long does deciding on the winners take? Do they have a day or only a few hours? Many anime cons have the results of their masquerade within an hour after the masquerade ends. In Shoujocon 2004, the results of the anime masquerade were actually announced the day after it was held. This would have afforded the judges more time to think through the entries.
Judging usually takes a couple of hours and, at Anime North, is usually announced at the dance which is held after the masquerade. It depends on the number of entries in the masquerade. On occasions that the masquerade ran very late, it has happened that the awards were done the next day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
What is the Artisan skill level? ICG guidelines list Youth, Novice, Journeyman, and Master. Why was their a need to create the Artisan skill level?
The Artisan division is only used at the regional level of competition and is not used at international events such as Worldcon and Costume-con. It's merely a stepping-stone between Journeyman (which can mean you've won as little as one award) and Master (in which many professionals and International-level winners compete).
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Unread 08-24-2005, 02:52 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Well, from my underestanding, many anime cons have a Hall Cosplay and a Masquerade. In the Hall Cosplay, I know the judges look at costumes up close and personal and ask the costumer questions. Anime masquerades generally also have craftsmanship awards, but I have no idea if those judges do any prejudging backstage.
That varies from con to con. PMX for example has prejudging on both the day of Masquerade and the day before, to assure as much as possible that every entrant who wants craftsmanship judging can get a good thorough session with the craftsmanship judges. Then there are cons like Fanime, which has no craftsmanship judging but gives out awards for it anyway. (Or at least they did. I think they started calling it a "Technical" award or some such. I haven't attended that con in a couple of years, and that is a big reason why...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Can the same costume be entered in both craftsmanship and performance?
Yes. This is generally true at anime cons and ICG events, as far as I know. At WorldCon, I won a craftsmanship award for "Precision in Re-creation" based on all the nitpicky little details in my costume. The presentation judges, of course, would not be able to see those details - but apparently they thought my presentation was also effective enough that they gave me the presentation award "Most Beautiful" in the Journeyman class. I have also seen this happen at anime cons - the first example that comes to mind is last year's PMX in which the Best in Show Craftsmanship (Group) winners also took home an Honorable Mention for Presentation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I have not seen post-mortem sessions done at anime cons I have visited or am aware. I'm sure a few anime cons have this, but I think most do not. Some of the topics in the post-mortem session you state could also be posted on the con's website, as explanations of the judging process.
Some of them do, but often they tend to get crammed into a really inconvenient timeslot - like early in the morning the day after Masquerade, when the contestants are likely still sleeping the sleep of the exhausted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Also, how long does deciding on the winners take? Do they have a day or only a few hours? Many anime cons have the results of their masquerade within an hour after the masquerade ends. In Shoujocon 2004, the results of the anime masquerade were actually announced the day after it was held. This would have afforded the judges more time to think through the entries.
Every con I've been to makes an attempt to announce the winners as fast as possible. I'd never heard of Masquerade awards deliberately not being announced until the following day, before your example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Judges' Choice awards take precedence over all awards except Best in Show? What about the other Best awards?
This seems to vary from con to con as well. I've seen judges awards placed above Honorable Mention but below Best, or placed below Honorable Mention instead.

Oh - also worth noting is that anime cons (in general, I'm sure there are exceptions) tend to have awards that are set in stone, while this does not seem to be true of ICG events. This may be because at the ICG events, there aren't prizes - or at least there certainly weren't at WorldCon. So you do usually get things like Best in Class, but you don't usually get "Third Place" or anything like that - the judges will award whatever they think is deserving of an award, so you can get "Best Beadwork" or "Best Hat" or whatever.

Personally, while winning a prize feels great, I'm starting to wonder if they're such a good idea. Recently I've started to see a lot of resentment directed at more experienced costumers in anime fandom simply because they're good, and statements like "so-and-so is too good, they shouldn't be allowed to compete." I'm starting to see a lot of jealousy and feelings of "we'll never win against them so they should be banned from competing" that seriously worry me. I wonder if prizeless contests would help any with that, or if then the jealousy would merely be transferred to the ribbons and the "prestige" (no matter how minor) of the awards. *sigh*
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Unread 08-24-2005, 03:11 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Judges' Choice awards take precedence over all awards except Best in Show? What about the other Best awards?

Is this how the award hierachy looks like in general?

Best in Show Overall
|
Judge's Choice Awards
|
Best Workmanship <-> Best Performance
|
Best in (Skill) Class <-> Best in (Performance) Class
|
Nth Place (Skill) Class <-> Nth Place (Performance) Class
|
Honorable Mention and other "Excellence" Awards

(<-> means the same level)


---------

Everybody has provided a lot of information. I should take some notes, so this stuff isn't lost in the threads.

The award hierarchy at the ICG cons I have competed and judged at looks sort of like this:

Workmanship:
  • Best in Show Workmanship
  • Judge's Choice
  • Best in Class (however many classes were entered; sometimes there are no masters or no Artisans, etc.)
  • Various awards tailored specifically to specific entries, such as Best Embroidery or Best Prop - these are for when we think an entry is deserving of an award for something specific.
  • Honourable Mention

Presentation:
  • Best in Show
  • Judges' Choice
  • Best in Class (again, however many classes were entered)
  • Various awards - again, if a presentation was especially good but not worthy of a Best in Class or Best in Show, we may give "Most Humorous", or "Best Choreography", that sort of thing.
  • Honourable Mention

Hoshikage is correct in that ICG awards are not set in stone - judges will give awards to as many or as few entrants as they feel are deserving. If they don't think anyone really stood above the crowd, there may be no Best in Show that year. Or sometimes there's a tie for an award - that happened to me at Worldcon 2003.

Only Presentation awards 'count' towards what division you may enter in at your next Masquerade, as Presentation awards are given by a panel of judges and Workmanship judging is usually done by only one person.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 03:34 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
Only Presentation awards 'count' towards what division you may enter in at your next Masquerade, as Presentation awards are given by a panel of judges and Workmanship judging is usually done by only one person.
Thanks for that listing.

Wow...workmanship judging is only usually done by one person? Doesn't that mean that one person has to go through all the entrants (or whatever cap might be set) if there are a lot of them? That sounds like a lot of time and work for one person to do.

Saeto, I went to www.balticon.org, but I couldn't find the skill divisions you listed. Where did you find that information?
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Unread 08-24-2005, 03:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Wow...workmanship judging is only usually done by one person? Doesn't that mean that one person has to go through all the entrants (or whatever cap might be set) if there are a lot of them? That sounds like a lot of time and work for one person to do.
I think that's dependent on what con you go to, too. ^^; At WorldCon 2004 there were four workmanship judges. They divided up the skill categories to save time, but even still I got looked at by two judges...
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Unread 08-24-2005, 03:41 PM   #41
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Just thought I'd quickly comment on craftsmanship judging at the few masqs I've competed in, since none of them have had greenroom judging.
Anime Iowa did quick, optional craftsmanship judging backstage, after you finished your presentation.
Fanime has no craftsmanship judging (as I understand it, the guy who runs the con wants to keep the focus on entertaining skits, rather than big, unweildy, showy costumes.)
Anime Boston does prejudging, taking place the day and morning before the masquerade. It's a total pain to get to, but you get some more time with the judges than you might otherwise.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 03:48 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Wow...workmanship judging is only usually done by one person? Doesn't that mean that one person has to go through all the entrants (or whatever cap might be set) if there are a lot of them? That sounds like a lot of time and work for one person to do.
It does depend on the con - depending on the size of the masquerade, there can be up to four Workmanship judges - but since they don't all see the same entries up close, they can't give unified decisions on awards like the Presentation judges can, which is why Workmanship awards don't count towards divisional standing.

Also, not everybody chooses to go for workmanship judging. It's really meant for people who worked hard on their costumes and want to get recognition for their attention to detail - if they have a fairly simple costume or are more presentation-oriented, they may choose not to be judged for workmanship.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 04:06 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Balticon's URL to its masquerade rules: http://www.bsfs.org/masqrule.htm


Also:
I'm a bit confused about workmanship awards not applying to division count. I know that "workmanship awards" like "Excellence in tailoring" do not count, but what about the Best in Class workmanship awards?

I raise this as an issue, because Best in Journeyman class workmanship at this past year's Costume Con counts on my friend, Dany Slone's, record, and because Pierre Pettinger is using my Best in Master Class Workmanship win from Balticon as the criteria to tell me:
Workmanship awards do not *officially* count, but it's always up to the discretion of the masquerade director, and if they feel that your abilities are higher than the level you're in based solely on awards won, then they can recommend that you enter at a higher division. That's what happened to Kaijugal and I at Worldcon '03 - we'd never entered a Worldcon before so were technically Novices, but based on the quality of our costumes the MD advised us that we should probably enter in Journeyman.

Costuming ability should ALWAYS weigh more heavily in division placement than number of awards won.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 04:26 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Some cons don't display their complete list of rules, even if they came from the ICG guidelines (no link to ICG either). Established costumers may know this, but anime cons continue to attract new entrants, who aren't sure about how a particular con's rules work, like the person who started this thread. This makes me feel that some cons are still not putting enough effort into full disclosure of the rules.
I agree, it does make things both difficult and frustraiting as a participant, (or potential participant). You'll see in recognition of this fact we've attempted to add as much information as possible to the Anime North Masquerade page, including an explaination of the divisional system, requirements, AND a link to both COSTUME CONNECTIONS for further study and to me for any questions.


As for Nekocon and competing down, Saeto will have to elaborate on her experience.






Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I have no gripe with those who know what they are doing. The ICG judges and experienced costumers know what is going on. I'm specifcally targeting anime masquerades, which I feel do not exhibit the same level of polish in procedure.
Ah. I've heard others make similar complaints.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
My opinions are only as an observer, sitting in the audience. I cannot judge, because I am not qualified to do so. My particular interest in discussing masquerades, World Cosplay Summit, and other competitions has been in trying to understand the rules development process (why does this rule exist?), the judging process (how do the judges judge?), and the rules implementation process (are the rules applied consistently and properly?).
Questioning and exploring ideas are good things. If it was done more often there would be more understanding and less misunderstanding, and hopefully less conflict. (Wow, I just became Captain Obvious) >_<

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
This would be a good offer, as it would be an educational experience from the end user perspective to see how masquerades work from backstage. Then, I can connect-the-dots between the rules and how things are actuated. I am simply an end user in the audience who happens to be interested in the logic and philosophy of the masquerade rules. I haven't made any costumes of my own, nor have I judged, so I'm about as far removed from the whole masquerade as one could get (short of not attending the con...heh)

Alas, Canada is a bit too far for my tastes, but I appreciate your gesture of goodwill.
Ah well! At the moment I only one of my many conventions is in the US. (Chicago), but you never know where we may cross paths. *chuckles*



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Well, from my underestanding, many anime cons have a Hall Cosplay and a Masquerade. In the Hall Cosplay, I know the judges look at costumes up close and personal and ask the costumer questions. Anime masquerades generally also have craftsmanship awards, but I have no idea if those judges do any prejudging backstage.
Yes I've heard that as well.

Anime North is a bit different. We have the Friday Night Masquerade( Cosplay Skit Competition) which is basically a skit show. We have the Saturday Night Masquerade which is an ICG style masquerade proper.

We ALSO have what is called the Hall Cosplay Contest, but that does not have to be signed up for. Basically we have 'mystery judges' who travel about the convention venues and award ribbons to good costumes here and there and about. The only qualification is the person can not be wearing that costume for the masquerade. (The judges ask). It's kind of nice since it gives both the shy and the uninitiated, or just the old and tired (LOL) a chance to be recognized for participating in cosplay too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Unless I misunderstand Saeto and you, in a typical ICG con, there is a crafstmanship category and a performance cattegory. In the performance category, the judges look at the how the costume works on the stage, but they may not look at the costume up close before the entrant goes on stage.

The craftsmanship judges look at a costume up close, and this is generally held before the masquerade.

Can the same costume be entered in both craftsmanship and performance?
Yes that is correct, and yes the costume is presented and eligable for both awards. BEST IN SHOW/JUDGES CHOICE is a culmination of the two.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
About these score sheets, Kaijugal...what criteria is generally on these sheets? I understand that the score sheets may be different from con to con.
As every entry can be so radically different there isn't any. It's basically just a 1-10, "how did you feel about that?" guage to give the judges a general idea backstage at what group of entries they should be looking at awarding.

I've seen specific score sheets in the past, i.e.

1-5 pts for pre recorded sound
1-10 pts for costume
1-20 pts for skit
+5 pts if rehearsed
+5 if it's funny
+10 if they look like the characters
TOTAL:____

And they're always the road to disaster. There are so many variables in a presentation, it's much better if the judges take notes and talk about thier general feelings/impressions/obserations
.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Also, how long does deciding on the winners take? Do they have a day or only a few hours? Many anime cons have the results of their masquerade within an hour after the masquerade ends. In Shoujocon 2004, the results of the anime masquerade were actually announced the day after it was held. This would have afforded the judges more time to think through the entries.
We usually do the young fans right away at the judges table. There are usually not that many so it's not too difficult.

Generally in my experience, in a masq of 40-60 entries it takes anywhere from 2.5-4 hours.


-------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Everybody has provided a lot of information. I should take some notes, so this stuff isn't lost in the threads.

Thanks for being so , well, openminded about all this.

Cheers!
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Unread 08-24-2005, 04:30 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime

Only Presentation awards 'count' towards what division you may enter in at your next Masquerade, as Presentation awards are given by a panel of judges and Workmanship judging is usually done by only one person.
Unfortunately "Presentation" awards is somewhat of a misnomer as the awards are often based on a combination of the actual physical presentation and the costume's apearance quality, especially where the major awards are involved, (best in class, judges choice, etc). In this usuage "presentation" does not mean the same thing as "skit" it's the entire package as it appears on stage.

Just to clairify. ^_^" Sorry Maral.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Wow...workmanship judging is only usually done by one person? Doesn't that mean that one person has to go through all the entrants (or whatever cap might be set) if there are a lot of them? That sounds like a lot of time and work for one person to do
Sometimes there is more than one. But I've gone it on my own before at smaller cons. We tend to get by with two or three at Anime North but sometimes barely. -_-"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Balticon's URL to its masquerade rules: http://www.bsfs.org/masqrule.htm


Also:
I'm a bit confused about workmanship awards not applying to division count. I know that "workmanship awards" like "Excellence in tailoring" do not count, but what about the Best in Class workmanship awards?

I raise this as an issue, because Best in Journeyman class workmanship at this past year's Costume Con counts on my friend, Dany Slone's, record, and because Pierre Pettinger is using my Best in Master Class Workmanship win from Balticon as the criteria to tell me:

Maybe I am wrong, but it appears general workmanship awards do not count, but they use Best in Class Workmanship as a criteria for division placement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm Hime
Workmanship awards do not *officially* count, but it's always up to the discretion of the masquerade director, and if they feel that your abilities are higher than the level you're in based solely on awards won, then they can recommend that you enter at a higher division. That's what happened to Kaijugal and I at Worldcon '03 - we'd never entered a Worldcon before so were technically Novices, but based on the quality of our costumes the MD advised us that we should probably enter in Journeyman.


Hahaha. Carl Mami? He suggested it, and then he said; "I'm going to insist you two enter in Journeyman." ^_^""" Although he say it nicely. *sheepish grin*Then all our Toronto Friends razzed us. Hee.
Fun times..


I do not count my workmanship awards towards my totals and most ICG people do not.

The reason is that generally workmanship awards do not count towards your final divisional total because they are awarded by one or sometimes two judges but not by the entire panel.

That being said, on the whole workmanship awards at the bigger (Worldcon/Costumecons) are more coveted by costumers, and more heavily fought for. (at least amongst my aquaintances). ^_^

I hope this is helpful.
Cheers!

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