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Unread 08-24-2005, 04:42 PM   #46
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We should condense much of the info here into a separate thread and sticky it, methinks. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding out there and it might help to clear things up for people.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 04:43 PM   #47
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Double post sorry.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 05:58 PM   #48
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Kaijugal and Sarcasm-hime have said workmanship judges cannot judge costume craftsmanship individually and not as a panel like the presentation judges. As a result, workmanship awards don't count toward awards totals.

Questions:
1) If workmanship awards don't add to the award total, how do entrants classify their skill levels? In looking at the Balticon skill levels that Saeto pointed out, it does mention award counts (this excludes if the director decides the entrant's skill is good enough to compete higher; assume a typical entrant), so how does this work out?

2) Why are craftmanship judges not able to form a panel to judge craftsmanship like the presentation judges? Are there too many entrants or some other reason?

I just wish I could copy the whole thread as text, format it, and stick it up on the net somewhere, like my costume selling/buying mini-guide in my profile. [shameless plug]

The Anime North Masquerade rules are comprehensive. I'm going to be inundated with data.

Oh, if the Kennedy Compendium is out of date, as Saeto mentioned, who is keeping track of the latest guidelines and rules? (It seems a lot of things are out of date...heh)

A costume can enter both masquerade and craftsmanship competitions...technically, the two competition don't have much overlap. So, I guess anime masquerades have become a perversion of the traditional ICG-style masquerades, since they've now duplicated the craftsmanship competition category via the Hall Cosplay competition, while the anime masquerade retains its own craftsmanship awards. Confusing. XP
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Unread 08-24-2005, 06:45 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Pierre Pettinger's been very nice about his recommendation. Going into Master at Costume Con against people like Jacqui Ward is gonna be a bit daunting, but I can deal. I'm more afraid that Dany and Karisu-sama will be trying to keep me from going all fan-girly on Jacqui backstage: "OMG!! You're like my goddess of costuming!!" I start hyperventilating whenever I see photos of that woman's costumes (the Gorgon and the Lady of the Lake come to mind).
A little bit daunting? I'd be all "I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy!" Maybe in 10 years I'd feel comfortable being in the same division as her.......*lol* I'd just be hunched over scrutinizing her quilting and beading. *lol* An example of me doing the above to a fellow costumer at a New Year's Eve party. (That's all hand-appliqué, by the way. That's why I'm going all Gollum over it. XD)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Questions:
1) If workmanship awards don't add to the award total, how do entrants classify their skill levels? In looking at the Balticon skill levels that Saeto pointed out, it does mention award counts (this excludes if the director decides the entrant's skill is good enough to compete higher; assume a typical entrant), so how does this work out?

2) Why are craftmanship judges not able to form a panel to judge craftsmanship like the presentation judges? Are there too many entrants or some other reason?
Well traditionally, the Masquerade is supposed to be about BOTH costumes and presentation, with emphasis on costumes. So you should have a good costume whether you're doing a simple walk-on or an elaborate presentation, but you shouldn't just do a presentation with little or no costume.

Only presentation awards count towards determining which division you will enter in at your next masquerade. So if I'm a novice and I win only a workmanship award, I can still enter as Novice at my next con if I want to. But if I win a presentation award, I must move up to Journeyman.

Of course, I could always enter in a higher division if I felt my skills warranted it. At my first convention I entered in Journeyman because members of my group were Journeymen (that's another rule - your group must compete at the level of the highest-level person in the group; if there are huge disparities in ranking within the group, like Novices and Masters in the same group, it can sometimes be negotiated with the MD), so I never actually entered as Novice.

The system we use backstage is that the workmanship judge stays in one place in the greenroom, and those who wish to be judged for workmanship go up to him/her to be examined. It's not impossible to have a full panel of workmanship judges, but it's just easier to do the workmanship process on a one-on-one basis; the judge asks you questions about how you made your costume, any particular areas you'd like to point out that you're really proud of, what was difficult, etc. It's often hard finding enough qualified and experienced costumers to judge (who aren't competing) so that may be the reason they developed the system in this way. Plus, if you have 60+ entrants it takes less time for the judge(s) to see them individually. If one con decided to have a full panel of workmanship judges that got to see every single entry, then I suppose you could count any workmanship award won at that con in your ranking. *shrug*

But I must stress again that the 'rules' regarding number of awards --> ranking is merely a guideline. The only hard-and-fast rule is that if you have won a presentation award at a certain level, you can no longer compete at a lower level. You don't have to wait until you've won X number of awards in order to move up to a higher division. It's up to you (and the masquerade director of the con you're attending).
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Last edited by Sarcasm-hime : 08-24-2005 at 06:55 PM.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 08:11 PM   #50
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Ok, let me see if I understand this.

Workmanship awards do not count towards which skill level you enter in masquerade (which is primarily presentation, workmanship is "secondary").

Do masquerade awards affect the skill level you can enter on the workmanship side? If you win Journeyman masquerade award, are you required to enter any workmanship competition as Journeyman skill level?
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Unread 08-24-2005, 08:40 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Ok, let me see if I understand this.

Workmanship awards do not count towards which skill level you enter in masquerade (which is primarily presentation, workmanship is "secondary").

Do masquerade awards affect the skill level you can enter on the workmanship side? If you win Journeyman masquerade award, are you required to enter any workmanship competition as Journeyman skill level?
We don't have separate workmanship competitions. Workmanship judging is merely part of a normal Masquerade. You enter a masquerade in a skill division based on the presentation awards you have won, or your personal preference. Workmanship awards are simply a way for the masquerade to give recognition to those who have done something exceptional on their costumes.

Workmanship awards may not count towards ranking, but overall quality of one's work and skill does, so if you're a really skilled costumer who's won 10 workmanship awards and never any presentation awards, that doesn't mean you should keep entering as Novice - it would be more suitable for you, and more fair to the other contestants, to enter in Journeyman or Artisan.

To continue your hypothetical situation, if you win a presentation in the Journeyman division, at your next masquerade you can enter in any category except Novice. You can choose to remain at Journeyman or move up if you feel your skills warrant it.

Really, the ICG guidelines are there to help you, but it's also about evaluating yourself honestly and using your best judgement as to what category you belong in.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 09:29 PM   #52
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Oh I understand now....
The masquerade has two award categories, with workmanship being optional. An entrant enters a single skill level for both categories (or just one, if the entrant does not do workmanship).

Most anime masquerades seem to automatically throw the entrant into workmanship competition of the masquerade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcasm hime
Really, the ICG guidelines are there to help you, but it's also about evaluating yourself honestly and using your best judgement as to what category you belong in.
This is my personal opinion, but I think a lot of anime masquerade entrants cannot honestly evaluate themselves or use their best judgment. Sometimes, they don't know all the rules, so they misplace themselves. I don't think the anime masquerade judges are able to spot entrants that might be misplaced.
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Unread 08-24-2005, 09:59 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Agreed. I occasionally see costumes that are amazing and think, They've got to be in Artisan or regional master and then discover, much to my surprise, they're in Novice. Then there are incredible people who make anime costumes who are hesitant to enter the Guild competitions, because they fear that the sci-fi veterans will eat them alive. Yes, people like Jacqui Ward and Marty Gear are very skilled, but if you play your cards right I've discovered, you can survive.
Maybe some anime masquerade entrants don't want to go to a non-anime convention and face people who are greatly more skilled, even if the anime entrants would not be competing against the greatly skilled. It might discourage them too much.

Some people don't really think that deeply into the meta-game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
I don't believe it's an issue of anime judges being thick as a brick and not being able to spot entries. I think it is a matter of not caring or not wanting to bump someone up to the proper division. It takes a certain amount of spine and courage to say, "This person is as good as I am or better than me, they should be bumped up."
I think the reasons are all of the above to some degree: not caring, not wanting, or not "knowing"

Since you are an anime masquerade director, you bring great influence over the masquerade and can direct it in an ICG-like way so the competition makes more sense. This is good (and I think this is the best way to get the needed changes across).
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Unread 08-24-2005, 10:14 PM   #54
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Holy crap, I just learned a boatload.

And I'm somewhat scared about coming back to Canada and competing since all my friends are now regional Artisans Masters, I believe, and I have plans to compete with some of them. :nervous sweatdrop: At least I have stuff planned out and hope to not let them down.

Clarification question:
I was in a group that was at the Journeyman level, but I don't think it won any "Best" awards (not presentation, anyway, we may have gotten Best Group Detailing for Workmanship, but it was a damn funny skit - anyone else like Picard because he's shiny?)...so, those don't count, correct? Since they're not "Best"s...? In which case, I'm still a novice? or because I won the award with them at Journeyman level, I'm a Journeyman?

Man, that "no contact with the judges" would be mighty difficult for some peeps at AN esp. when Kaijugal and Sarcasm are judging.


So, now another question from me. I know that one usually is experienced to be a judge, but do you have any general guidelines that you follow before you consider someone for a judging position? So many years costuming, so many awards/presentations at x-level competitions.... ad nasuem.... ?
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Unread 08-25-2005, 06:41 AM   #55
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I think maybe one point of confusion is coming from the definition of the word "presentation" as applied to awards in this case. In many anime cons, presentation and costumes are considered completely separately; in ICG judging, this is not the case. ICG costuming tends to be of the belief that a stage competition is for showing the best of everything you have, both costume and display, and the ICG "presentation" category takes that into account. It's an award for your costume AND the effectiveness with which you display it, the complete package as it were - the overall impact of what you do on stage. Workmanship is a separate and optional category for those who wish to have their costumes judged close up.

Don't sweat the counting of awards too much, Eleryth. If you think you should be a journeyman, then compete as a journeyman. If not, stay in novice. Only if you win a presentation award at an ICG-rules event would you be required under their rules to move up. Anime cons, of course, may have their own rules.

Quote:
Maybe some anime masquerade entrants don't want to go to a non-anime convention and face people who are greatly more skilled, even if the anime entrants would not be competing against the greatly skilled. It might discourage them too much.
Quite true, especially since many anime costumers are relatively young and relatively novice. Which is even more of a reason for anime masquerade directors to consider adopting more consistent rules for themselves; that way, even those who don't wish to venture outside of anime cons can still know what to expect in a costume contest.

For those of you who are intimidated by the master costumers you'll be competing with - just talk to them! They want to see what you're doing! They're just hobbyists like the rest of us, not superheroes. You have as much to teach them as they have to teach you. They're an invaluable resource; they don't want to keep you down, they want to help you become as good as you want to be. Just because someone has a "master" level designation, or a ton of awards, or is a "celebrity" costumer, or has been doing this for thirty years, doesn't mean anything, really. Seriously, at the ICG contests I've seen, there is a real sense of everybody in it for the same goals. Although there are more rules about awards, the gaining, hoarding and counting up of awards seems to matter much less than it does in anime-land.

The bottom line, of course, is that in order for us to see much change in the way anime cons are run, we really need to grab the reins and become masquerade directors at anime cons. But I know that I, at least, am not going to put my money where my mouth is as far as that goes.

I have competed in a grand total of one masquerade, but I've been asked to judge at several cons where the masq director knew me and my portfolio. It's mostly a matter of what the masq director is comfortable with, and that in turn seems to be partly a factor of how much time he or she has spent as a costumer. Not all masq directors actually make costumes themselves, and that can affect what each director sees as a priority in judging.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 06:50 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Kaijugal and Sarcasm-hime have said workmanship judges cannot judge costume craftsmanship individually and not as a panel like the presentation judges. As a result, workmanship awards don't count toward awards totals.

Questions:
1) If workmanship awards don't add to the award total, how do entrants classify their skill levels? In looking at the Balticon skill levels that Saeto pointed out, it does mention award counts (this excludes if the director decides the entrant's skill is good enough to compete higher; assume a typical entrant), so how does this work out?

2) Why are craftmanship judges not able to form a panel to judge craftsmanship like the presentation judges? Are there too many entrants or some other reason?
Nah, nah, nah, it's NOT set in stone. ^^ At Costume Con we had a panel of 4 workmanship judges in the green room. Remember, the ICG guidelines are exactly that: GUIDELINES - they are NOT rules. (And the revised ICG guidelines were basically completed earlier this year; I know the people who took all the new input & hashed it out, I don't know why the new guidelines don't appear to have been posted yet... )

Handbook: A really helpful handbook to check for ideas et al (in terms of useful info, although it badly needs reorganization, updating to include modern tech (ie: burning entry music on CDs!) and new editing) is "The Masquerade handbook: The Art fo Running the Mid-Sized Masquerade" by Janet Wilson Anderson (ed.) & Cat Devereaux with Gary Anderson, Rusty Dawe, Richard Foss & Craig Jones. One may still be able to get a copy by contacting Cat Devereaux through her site at http://www.alleycatscratch.com.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 09:19 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth

And I'm somewhat scared about coming back to Canada and competing since all my friends are now regional Artisans (or?) Masters, I believe, and I have plans to compete with some of them. :nervous sweatdrop: At least I have stuff planned out and hope to not let them down.
Ah no worries! It's not that big a deal honestly. You'll be fine and have a blast I'm sure. *thumbs up* Don't make it a big deal and it won't be. It will be nice to see you again too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
Man, that "no contact with the judges" would be mighty difficult for some peeps at AN esp. when Kaijugal and Sarcasm are judging.
Well... that rule is treated with mainly just good common sense. Generally if I'm judging and someone I know is competing, I just avoid chatting them up about thier costumes/presentation ahead of time, and don't chum around with them overly much onsite during masquearde time. It's considered good form and the idea is to protect both the contestant, (from being accused of currying favor), and the judges, (from being accused of favoritism).
Most people do not take the rule to the extreme, but treat it with the decorum it deserves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
You should ask Karisu-sama about this. Maybe she could elaborate? I think she said in a different thread that she has seen people try to sneak enormous parts of their costumes down to the Green Room so no one would see them.
The year I was Godzilla Mk1, a couple who are friends of mine were judging the masqeurade. I hadn't told them what I was entering as and I got dressed in my room and wore him down to the Greenroom and the whole preceeding 3 hours until I went on stage. (HOT!!). I wanted to suprise them after the masquerade by telling them it was me, and I wanted to be 100% sure in my mind that I was scored honestly. Humorously the husband figured it out right away. :P *feels herself drifting off topic*


Quote:
Originally Posted by Koumori
: For those of you who are intimidated by the master costumers you'll be competing with - just talk to them! They want to see what you're doing! They're just hobbyists like the rest of us, not superheroes. You have as much to teach them as they have to teach you. They're an invaluable resource; they don't want to keep you down, they want to help you become as good as you want to be.
*claps* AWSOME POINTS!! I hope people take this to heart!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karisu-sama

Handbook: A really helpful handbook to check for ideas et al (in terms of useful info, although it badly needs reorganization, updating to include modern tech (ie: burning entry music on CDs!) and new editing) is "The Masquerade handbook: The Art fo Running the Mid-Sized Masquerade" by Janet Wilson Anderson (ed.) & Cat Devereaux with Gary Anderson, Rusty Dawe, Richard Foss & Craig Jones. One may still be able to get a copy by contacting Cat Devereaux through her site at http://www.alleycatscratch.com.
I agree with this 100% as well. The Masquearde Handbook, despite it's age (The original copy was printed in 1988 and the second edition was printed in 1991), it's an excellent and almost flawless general resource.
I own a copy that was handed down to me from another master costumer several years ago. Mine is spiral bound and also contains the ICG rules updates as posted and other useful articles expanding on subjects such as "running a sucessful greenroom", etc. As well I have been archiving Masquerade forms from various cons with notations on what worked well and what didn't.

Cheers!
~Dawn
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Unread 08-25-2005, 09:46 AM   #58
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How do these handbooks come into circulation? They appear to be self-published and only available directly from the authors. It seems like on-demand publishing. It seems like every ICG masquerade director has access to one to supplement their personal experience.

Since ICG guidelines are just guidelines, don't different ICG cons have slightly different rules? What makes a con ICG-sanctioned? Is the minimum threshold for ICG guideline compliance using the skill levels proscribed by the guidelines (youth, novice, journeyman, [artisan/craftsman], master)?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
I agree with this 100% as well. The Masquearde Handbook, despite it's age (The original copy was printed in 1988 and the second edition was printed in 1991), it's an excellent and almost flawless general resource.
I own a copy that was handed down to me from another master costumer several years ago. Mine is spiral bound and also contains the ICG rules updates as posted and other useful articles expanding on subjects such as "running a sucessful greenroom", etc. As well I have been archiving Masquerade forms from various cons with notations on what worked well and what didn't.
Are you publishing any of these notes or unlabeled forms any time soon (like many other established costumers/directors)?
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Unread 08-25-2005, 11:45 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Since ICG guidelines are just guidelines, don't different ICG cons have slightly different rules? What makes a con ICG-sanctioned? Is the minimum threshold for ICG guideline compliance using the skill levels proscribed by the guidelines (youth, novice, journeyman, [artisan/craftsman], master)?
It's not a question of "sanctioning"... the ICG is not really a governing body, and you don't have to submit paperwork to them or anything (though I'm sure they'd appreciate a list of winners afterwards). It's an association of like-minded people who have collectively been costuming for a good long time and have hashed out their system based on what works and what doesn't. AFAIK, all you have to do in order to use ICG guidelines is simply to say you are using ICG guidelines, and then do it. Different conventions absolutely do have slightly different rules, depending on how they choose to run their contests; that's fine, since the ICG guidelines are not hard and fast rules. Much of it simply depends on individual discretion, whether the individual be the masq director or the entrant.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 11:49 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Are you publishing any of these notes or unlabeled forms any time soon (like many other established costumers/directors)?
*chuckles* I have no plans to. I really have never given it any thought. haha. *embarassed grin*. I often give copies of things away to masquerade directors or other costumers who ask, or when I make copies for people to take away at panels, but beyond that no.
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