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Unread 08-25-2005, 12:46 PM   #61
Eriol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koumori
It's not a question of "sanctioning"... the ICG is not really a governing body, and you don't have to submit paperwork to them or anything (though I'm sure they'd appreciate a list of winners afterwards). It's an association of like-minded people who have collectively been costuming for a good long time and have hashed out their system based on what works and what doesn't. AFAIK, all you have to do in order to use ICG guidelines is simply to say you are using ICG guidelines, and then do it. Different conventions absolutely do have slightly different rules, depending on how they choose to run their contests; that's fine, since the ICG guidelines are not hard and fast rules. Much of it simply depends on individual discretion, whether the individual be the masq director or the entrant.
Then, it seems the only commonality among ICG cons is the agreement of skill divisions (basic definitions of what typically constitutes a Novice, Journeyman, etc.). i.e. Judges wouldn't offer a Master division competition if
A) there were not enough entrants who qualified as a Master based on the "award count guideline" in the ICG guidelines
B) the judges felt none of the entries were worthy of Master-level work (based on the collective experience of the judges)

I guess I'm being overly pedantic (i.e. a rules lawyer) about these guidelines. You have a general framework (ICG guidelines) and individual modifications of this framework for each con. It isn't quite total "uniformity" across the board.
Nonetheless, I am understanding the ICG guidelines better than before. I sure wouldn't get this kind of information just by reading the ICG guidelines by itself. Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
*chuckles* I have no plans to. I really have never given it any thought. haha. *embarassed grin*. I often give copies of things away to masquerade directors or other costumers who ask, or when I make copies for people to take away at panels, but beyond that no.

So, if I ask you to provide a copy of your notes, would you do so?
I'm not a costumer or a director (I know someone who is a costumer, at least). I think I just like examining rules and protocols (for loopholes!) a bit more than I should. haha
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Unread 08-25-2005, 02:16 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
You should ask Karisu-sama about this. Maybe she could elaborate? I think she said in a different thread that she has seen people try to sneak enormous parts of their costumes down to the Green Room so no one would see them.

At Balticon, the understanding was once you're in the Green room you're in.
AFAIK at most ICG-run masquerades they're not as strict as at Worldcon. At Worldcon you're not allowed to wear your masquerade costume around the convention except to go directly to the greenroom, and even then some people cover up with a sheet or something. Most cons I've been to don't have that rule, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
The guild is very picky with who it sanctions. San Diego Comic Con with all its world-class costumers has yet to receive the stamp of approval from the ICG. This is kind of unfortunate, because it renders awards that people have won from SDCC moot as far as the Guild is concerned.
The problem with SDCC is that they don't use any divisional system, and have only the most cursory workmanship judging. That pretty much screws any novices who might want to enter, as well as people whose costumes have lots of detail that cannot be seen from the stage.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 02:51 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
I know that before she left, Sue Shambaugh was trying to get Katsucon under Guild control. She was following the guidelines as closely as she could for an anime con and bringing in Marty (the head of the Costumers' Guild) to judge and oversee the guidelines were being carried out. Although he came for two years in a row, Craftsmen was the highest division she was ever allowed to have at the con. She could not do Worldclass master, because there were no people at that level attending, and there were not adequate judges or checks and balances in place to assure him that such people could be judged fairly.

Just using ICG guidelines at anime con is not enough. It takes a combination of factors for the Guild to give their approval and make it an official Guild con. That is why no anime con, even if it uses ICG guidelines, will ever be sanctioned by the Guild.
So, are there a set of documented guidelines that a con would need to abide before being presented before the ICG for approval (barring any other reasons ICG would deny sanctioning)? How can a con even attempt to gain ICG sanctioning if it doesn't know what is required and just following ICG guidelines is insufficient? How did all the existing ICG cons get approval in the first place?

i.e. Katsucon and Anime USA had guild members judging or overseeing the process, yet you feel that no anime con will be granted ICG sanctioning any time soon. What is missing or is anime/manga/game too specific of a subject?
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Unread 08-25-2005, 03:54 PM   #64
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I have a question. If its a little off topic, im sorry, but i was just curious,

Do you guys think that the reaction a cosplay/er gets from the AUDIENCE has any sway in the judges ruling? Or not?
What i mean to say is, if a cosplayer is really getting a huge reaction from the fans, n is clearly the audience's favorite, do u think the judges might award them just to make the crowd happy?

I'm not speaking from personal experiance. Ive actually never even seen one of the masqs in person, and have never presented a costume in the masq either - i'm just curious.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 04:09 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TribalButterfly
Do you guys think that the reaction a cosplay/er gets from the AUDIENCE has any sway in the judges ruling? Or not?
What i mean to say is, if a cosplayer is really getting a huge reaction from the fans, n is clearly the audience's favorite, do u think the judges might award them just to make the crowd happy?

I'm not speaking from personal experiance. Ive actually never even seen one of the masqs in person, and have never presented a costume in the masq either - i'm just curious.
At an anime con, I would say: Yes, this can happen. Because the audience doesn't know what goes on in the judge's mind, sometimes the judge's choice doesn't match the audience reaction, and you end up with after-con discussions wondering why the judges made the choices they did.

I agree with the ICG costumers in that anime masquerades are much more heavily structured for performance skits.

---------------

Saeto, you raise good and interesting points about why there probably would not be an ICG-sanctioned anime con. The skill level at most anime cons isn't near the level of ICG cons, based on ICG pictures I've seen. I appreciate the bluntness, because sometimes, sugar coating just doesn't cut it. haha
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Unread 08-25-2005, 06:16 PM   #66
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As a judge I would not usually take the crowd's reaction into account - most often, people cheer for things that happen to be popular at the time (whether the costumes/presentations are good or not), or for gratuitous fanservice...and I've seen far too many halloween contests where the most popular costume got the prize (usually a cute kid or a half-naked woman) instead of the good costumes.

That said, however, I do recall one instance at Toronto Trek a few years back where an entry got a special "audience appreciation" award because their presentation had been so funny and entertaining that the audience had demanded an encore. That's a rare occurrence, though.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 06:18 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
How do these handbooks come into circulation? They appear to be self-published and only available directly from the authors. It seems like on-demand publishing. It seems like every ICG masquerade director has access to one to supplement their personal experience.
I have spoken to Eric Anderson (stepson of Janet Wilson Anderson, and involved with the original book as well) about our company potentially republishing it for sale at basic cost of production & shipping. We already have access to professional printing facilities in our regular (software) product line. I think there should be no trouble, as the purpose of the book as written IS to disseminate ideas, NOT to make a profit. One of those "we have to find the time to get around to it" projects, though.

At that point, Kaijugal et al, if you have useful notes you might wish to contribute, we would indeed be happy to see 'em. ^^

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Unread 08-25-2005, 06:39 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
I guess I'm being overly pedantic (i.e. a rules lawyer) about these guidelines. You have a general framework (ICG guidelines) and individual modifications of this framework for each con. It isn't quite total "uniformity" across the board.
Nonetheless, I am understanding the ICG guidelines better than before. I sure wouldn't get this kind of information just by reading the ICG guidelines by itself. Thanks.
*grins* It's funny that on close examination it doesn't appear to be quite uniform in all cases, (it's not) *chuckles*, but for some reason the beauty of it is, it does seem uniform when you are competing within a circut of conventions that apply it.

I strongly feel that it's not only a system of rules set out as a guidline, but it is a mindset that is raised up within the community that is governed by them. I think a testament to what I am saying is the character and maturity of the people who are participating in this discussion.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
So, if I ask you to provide a copy of your notes, would you do so?
I'm not a costumer or a director (I know someone who is a costumer, at least). I think I just like examining rules and protocols (for loopholes!) a bit more than I should. haha
Sure, I'd be happy to. We're talking several binders full of information here however so we can discuss at some future point what exactly it is you'd like copies of. If it's the whole manual, plus all the forms, that will take a bit longer not to mention ouch expensive. Now I know why they SELL copies. LOL. But it's all good provided I can fix out a time to sit down and get it done. (I feel a sojourn to Kinkos Kopy coming on.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karisu-sama
I have spoken to Eric Anderson (stepson of Janet Wilson Anderson, and involved with the original book as well) about our company potentially republishing it for sale at basic cost of production & shipping. We already have access to professional printing facilities in our regular (software) product line. I think there should be no trouble, as the purpose of the book as written IS to disseminate ideas, NOT to make a profit. One of those "we have to find the time to get around to it" projects, though.

At that point, Kaijugal et al, if you have useful notes you might wish to contribute, we would indeed be happy to see 'em. ^^
^_^ Could be. I'd have to know what is already covered however to see if I could potentially add anything useful. Even if I can't , it sounds like a well overdue project, and I am heartily in favor of it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Although judges agree that Novice/Journeyman and Master at the divisions, very few actually have a "true" Master division comprised of international winners. I find it more accurate to say Novice/Journeyman/and Regional Master (craftsmen) to avoid confusion between Regional Master (craftsmen) and the master division used for Worldclass Masters. Worldclass Master is a category they only use at international cons, or cons like Balti that are getting flooded by winners from Worldcon. Because this happens at Balticon, Marty uses regional Master (craftsmen) and Worldclass Master as categories to differentiate between the two.
Regional Master is a title we talk about here alot as well. For the Record Sarcasm and I are Regional Masters, while our friends like, Jacqui Ward, Barb Schofield and Penny Lipman are World Masters.

Actually I talked to Penny last night, (she's my Greenroom manager at the expo masquerade I'm running this weekend, and she was saying that all the gals are thinking of competing locally again soon. So it's bound ot be a colourful year ahead with a scad of World Masters stepping up to the plate. *lopsided grin*


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
The problem with SDCC is that they don't use any divisional system, and have only the most cursory workmanship judging. That pretty much screws any novices who might want to enter, as well as people whose costumes have lots of detail that cannot be seen from the stage.
I have to agree with Sarcasm on this one. I'm not a big fan of how SDCC, (or most Corporate Expos), run thier costume contests, and they are usually very far from the ICG standards as well as goals so therefore I am not sorry if they are not heavily promoted within our community.

I put 'my money where my mouth is' as Koumori says, and run an ICG style masquerade at the Canadian Comic Expo. It took years of Barb Schofield to drag them kicking and screaming all the way to accept that way of doing things, and then myself demanding more here and there to get it that way, but I think if you ask in the Canadian forums of anyone who attended that show when the "greenroom" was a hall, *wry grin* it's been worth it .

Overall however I cannot put much stock in many Expo competitions which often seem to be just as much about T & A as they are about costumes, and often even allow store bought costumes to compete equally.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
I'm gonna be blunt:

I believe no anime con will ever be sanctioned
Aww geez, don't phrase it like that. It sounds too much like a challenge and you're getting my impish nature all riled up. You know I can't resist a good challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Getting an anime con sanctioned would also require immense involvement from the Guild to oversee it, and there are very few people from the ICG willing to do so. Peple like Sue Shambaugh and Kaijugal are rare gems. The majority of anime masquerade directors who think they know how the Guild does it really don't and are trainwrecks waiting to happen.
I DEFINATELY cannot take all the credit. Derwin Mak and Caroline Julian who were my predecessors as masquerade director, set the standard in the first few years of the Anime North. I am merely continuing the good work. ^_^
Both Derwin and Caroline are masters with a strong background in competing at Worldcon and Costumecon, and yet have a great love of anime, so they were the perfect people to lead the way.

Once again, I will point out that I have been lucky to have grown up in such a costuming community as the one we have here, and to have had the opportunity to learn so much over the years from such people.



Quote:
Originally Posted by TribalButterfly
I have a question. If its a little off topic, im sorry, but i was just curious,

Do you guys think that the reaction a cosplay/er gets from the AUDIENCE has any sway in the judges ruling? Or not?
What i mean to say is, if a cosplayer is really getting a huge reaction from the fans, n is clearly the audience's favorite, do u think the judges might award them just to make the crowd happy?

I'm not speaking from personal experiance. Ive actually never even seen one of the masqs in person, and have never presented a costume in the masq either - i'm just curious.
I can tell you for a fact, from experience, that YES it can. I know two particular judges, (who shall remain nameless), that take audience reaction into account. That is not to say that they base thier opinion completely on the audience reaction, but they do take it into consideration. Even I myself will make a notation that there was a postive audience reaction, so that when we're discussing the decision it can be mentioned. It doesn't always affect the results but it could potentially tip the balance in favor of two equally ranked entries. It also helps when considering awards such as Most Humourous or Most Dramatic. If your presentation makes the whole audience audibly gasp in shock or delight, you can bet the judges notice.

Once again let me say this is not in EVERY CASE but is based on my personal experiences as a judge. I hope you find it helpful.

Cheers!
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Last edited by Kaijugal : 09-06-2005 at 12:22 PM. Reason: to add in reply to Karisu, we were obviously posting simutaniously. Heh.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 07:49 PM   #69
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I don't actually know what my technical ranking is vis a vis different groups' definitions. For ICG-type events, I compete in Masters/Open division, unless I am a member of a presentation / costume set designed by my kids. (The last Worldcon we attended, my kids had recently learned how to sew, it was THEIR entry, and despite being eligible for the Youth/Junior division, they chose to reject it in favor of entering in Novice against adults. And THEN they won both presentation and workmanship awards. I am SOOO frikken' proud of 'em, frankly, for their decision alone. )

In the ICG, most people I know find the concept of "sandbagging" (deliberately competing with high skills at a lower rank to insure a win) to be dishonorable and lame-ass (not to mention it earns one a bad reputation.) OTOH, it brings prestige to compete against a higher level group and "prove yourself", and my kids impressed many long-time ICG Masq. people that night. They even handled a tech screw-up (sound) like pros.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 09:30 PM   #70
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
*grins* It's funny that on close examination it doesn't appear to be quite uniform in all cases, (it's not) *chuckles*, but for some reason the beauty of it is, it does seem uniform when you are competing within a circut of conventions that apply it.
At least all ICG cons agree on skills divisions and "excellence deserves recognition." That probably goes very far, so the ICG entrants can get an idea where they rank.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
I strongly feel that it's not only a system of rules set out as a guidline, but it is a mindset that is raised up within the community that is governed by them. I think a testament to what I am saying is the character and maturity of the people who are participating in this discussion.
After all, how often do you get Kaijugal, Karisu-sama, Sarcasm-hime, and Saeto talking in one thread? haha

I think the anime fandom as a whole is nowhere near this mindset yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Sure, I'd be happy to. We're talking several binders full of information here however so we can discuss at some future point what exactly it is you'd like copies of. If it's the whole manual, plus all the forms, that will take a bit longer not to mention ouch expensive. Now I know why they SELL copies. LOL. But it's all good provided I can fix out a time to sit down and get it done. (I feel a sojourn to Kinkos Kopy coming on.)
Binders! You've been doing this a long time I see. Yes, shipping costs would be expensive. If you could estimate the amount of money needed to duplicate and transport a copy, I'd be willing to pay the costs.

Actually, before that happens, I might need a sample of your handwriting. I can't read every person's handwriting... XP No sense shipping all those binders if it turns out I can't read your notes.

Have you thought about putting any notes online? I know some of the material probably has a copyright by the original author, so you couldn't probably do this without consulting them first.

-------------------

Oh yes, where can I get a copy of this Kennedy Compendium? I heard it is a bit out of date, but it's one of the major publications for masquerades.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 11:02 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
In your Canadian masquerades, do you shove the regional masters in with Worldcon masters like Jacqui Ward, or is it like Balticon, and there are two separate master divisions? I ask, because Balticon's the only guild con I have ever competed at, and I'm wondering how to the norm what Marty does with Balticon is. A Worldclass Master division at a regional con is not something that I expect to see. I expect Novice, Journeyman and Regional Master; not Novice, Journeyman, Regional Master (Craftsmen) and Worldcon Master.
AFAIK most, if not all, of the local Worldclass Masters have been running the local masquerades for years so they haven't been competing (I think Derwin Mak is the one exception), so we usually just have one "Master" division, and it's still usually pretty small. We do have some new Regional Masters recently in the anime community, though, and are encouraging them to branch out to more 'traditional' ICG cons.
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Unread 08-25-2005, 11:44 PM   #72
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I forgot to ask. Where can I find a list of ICG-sanctioned cons? I think I'm a least psyched enough to visit one in NY, NJ, CT, MA, or MD.
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Unread 08-26-2005, 09:01 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
In your Canadian masquerades, do you shove the regional masters in with Worldcon masters like Jacqui Ward, or is it like Balticon, and there are two separate master divisions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
AFAIK most, if not all, of the local Worldclass Masters have been running the local masquerades for years so they haven't been competing (I think Derwin Mak is the one exception), so we usually just have one "Master" division, and it's still usually pretty small.

There are a few who show up and compete from time to time, mostly at TT.
Barb has entered a few things but OOC as of late. I competed in a masquerade Carol Salemi one year. (I don't recall how that turned out), and I also have gotten the honour, ( ^_~""" ) of competing in several masquerades with Derwin.

(I joke of course, because I just adore Derwin, but I always seem to get the luck to draw the entry number after his, and if you've been to a local con, you'll know that the mere mention of his name causes pandemonium. He's quite a hard act to follow. *huge grin* It's a spot that's so notoriusly avoided now that some costumers write "please not after Derwin Mak", on thier reg forms. LOL! ^_^ It's all in good fun tho. Derwin is A-1 and we love him. Sarcasm knows whereof I speak. *chuckles*

Some of the gals are thinking of starting to compete here again now that they're freed up from directing masquerades. So at least you have that to look forward to. Heh.
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Unread 08-26-2005, 10:07 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
Costume.org has a list of cons under their conventions' section, but many of them are unofficial (the Guild just likes making lists of cons).
I think humanity has a tendency to make lots of lists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
The official ones that I know of within the East coast are Arisia (Boston), Balticon (Baltimore), Lunacon (Connecticut I believe) and Philcon. On this end of the country, Arisia and Balticon are the big ones that attract all the heavy weights.
Thanks for the list.
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Unread 08-26-2005, 02:53 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
P.S. Your friend Derwin looks like he's fanboying on you in that photo. XP
Haha, ^_^ I think we're BOTH just fanboying in general. Masquerade, just happy to be there. Heh.

I hear you about the Kris Kramer thing, as I lived the tale. ^_^

Hahaha. I think that's just par for course with any competition of that level. You nevre know what you are going to see from the other costumers. Luckily I enjoy the hobby too much to get freaked out if someones work is just so much more wow than mine. I just find it inspires me to try harder next time. I belive that's why I enjoy well regulated and judged competitions. If something beats me, it was a costume that deserved it. It's not like "regular", (read " halloween bar" or "Comic Con"), competitions where I stand a chance of loosing against a store bought Supergirl who flashes her boobies, or a pygmy with elephantitis of the scrotum. <~(Serriously a costume I saw win one year) -_-"

On another topic I was reading on the ICG list that Kevin Roche and Andy Trombley are giving advice to one of the masqeruade directors of a big comic con, (I THINK SanDiego Comic Con.), Pehraps Change is in the wind everywhere.
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