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Unread 08-29-2005, 04:11 PM   #91
Kaijugal
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I must say that I honestly do not remember any time I've been Workmanship judged other than this year and even then I have very little memory of it. I don't find it stressful at all, and I hope it remains that way.
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Unread 08-29-2005, 07:46 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
The Guild judges don't tug on stuff to the point where it's in danger of ripping, but they do like to make sure all the seams are secure. I think one of the reasons the woman at Balticon was so intense with me was because I mentioned it contained extensive hand-sewing and that for Alucard I was trying to duplicate period techniques. I don't think I want to know how tough they are on costumes in the historical masquerade.
The moral of the story is that you can't use technical jargon to fool the judges. They'll call you on it!
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Unread 08-29-2005, 08:32 PM   #93
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So, this is probably off topic, but this "extreme judging" thing has me curious.

What is the general format? You opt to have your costume judged, but once there, do they just inspect it and then ask you questions, or do you first describe it, what you did, your favorite parts? About how long does it last, usually? 2 mins? 5? I realize that the number of judges and the number of entrants will affect the time, but to get into that type of detail, I imagine it will be about 5 mins or so per entrant. I've only ever had workmanship judging once, and I don't remember it too well since it was my first time and several years ago.

Saeto, you mentioned typed sheets - did the judge read that right away, or was that notes for you? I imagine every con has different documentation rules/requirements/limits? Are novices made aware of the documentation they can and cannot bring via the website or something?

General question:

So, a novice is actually judged less harshly than a Master, for both presentation and workmanship, correct? That is, the expectations are higher for the master, so if it's not quite up to what the judges expect, no award?

I'm actually getting somewhat excited to come home and work on a few of the more elaborate costumes that I want to do and see how they (and I!) hold up during such a serious judging.
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Unread 08-29-2005, 08:36 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Koumori
Bear in mind that that does depend on the judge. Not everybody is going to pull on things or turn your costume inside out (and at least one anime judging panel I've been on *did* do that kind of thing). That said, however - yes, when they say workmanship they mean workmanship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
So, a novice is actually judged less harshly than a Master, for both presentation and workmanship, correct? That is, the expectations are higher for the master, so if it's not quite up to what the judges expect, no award?
It really does depend on the judge and the particular convention...and yes, also what division you're entering in. For example I'm much more lenient on imperfections when judging Novices and Journeymen than when judging Masters. But if you're entering Master, I expect all your seams to be finished impeccably and everything to be neat and clean, and I also expect to see more advanced construction levels and details. If I don't see that level of quality, I won't give an award.

I also try to help along nervous contestants who have the 'deer-in-headlights' look by asking questions like "Which parts did you make yourself", "what was most difficult", "what are you most proud of", etc.

But when I've been judged for Workmanship, 99% of the time the judges have been very nice and supportive and not scary at all. ^_^

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
Saeto, you mentioned typed sheets - did the judge read that right away, or was that notes for you? I imagine every con has different documentation rules/requirements/limits? Are novices made aware of the documentation they can and cannot bring via the website or something?
The amount of documentation people provide to judges really depends on personal preference, level of judging, the particular convention, and how complex your costume is. For example, for a historical reproduction costume done in totally accurate fabrics and sewing methods, you'd probably want a fair bit of documentation to show that you'd done your research. Or for media recreations costumes, you may want to show examples of the original source material so the judge can see how accurate you were. In the case of my Morpheus costume, I provided reference pictures and then explained in an accompanying sheet how I'd taken certain elements from different versions of the costume, and the reasons for any changes I'd made. Obviously judges will expect less documentation from Novices than from Masters.
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Unread 08-29-2005, 08:57 PM   #95
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Kaijugal - yup, that was the Men in Tights year when we followed Derwin. It was quite funny, everyone in the green room was whispering how they were glad they weren't right after him, and we had no idea why!!

Re: ICG judging/extreme judging... in the past, I've been quite stressed over workmanship judging, regardless of who was doing it. However, I can actually now say that I'm looking forward to really take my time in making a costume or two that really are finished impeccably and being able to tell the judge about all the neat things/things I love! I've had mixed experiences when it comes to judging...in fact, one year at Toronto Trek, Kaijugal dropped by our hotel room while I was frantically gluing beads to my costume, only to judge it for workmanship the next night. ^_^ I've had the once-over, I've had really detailed questions asked and seams examined, and some in between. I can also say that I've been workmanship judged by several world masters at Toronto cons, and almost all of them have been nothing short of polite, attentive, appreciative and professional.

Hoshikage - sorry for not quoting, but very well said! You've put the stress into perspective: close workmanship scrutiny is a judgement, but it's also really rewarding to have someone notice your efforts.

Eleryth - bring on the Crimson Stigmata, baby. I'm excited too!
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Unread 08-29-2005, 09:06 PM   #96
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What exactly is a "more advanced construction level"? More difficult sewing techniques? Props? Armor? General "engineering" (wing harnesses, buttcapes, whatever)? Could you give an example?

What about costumes that just don't seem to appear to be as difficult as others. Are those judged more critically because they look more simple? To use an example you may be familiar with, Sarcasm, Rith from Magna Carta vs Ladrinne from the same game? (sorry for the close-to-home example, Oselle!)

Should costumers take into account their skill level when choosing a costume to enter the masquerade? I notice that the higher the skill level, the more complex the costume (as a general trend). Are there ways to make a simple-looking costume "be a real contender" against more complex looking costumes, regardless of skill level/rank?
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Last edited by Eleryth : 08-29-2005 at 09:08 PM.
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Unread 08-30-2005, 12:01 AM   #97
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Wow, that's a cool way to present documentation, and a good example to read. I take it creativity in presenting your notes is helpful and encouraged.

One more question on the providing documentation bit. What if there's a piece or detail or structure that's not directly visible or easily accessible that the costumer is proud of? For example, the frame for the wings, animatronics or other engineered pieces. Is it acceptable to include images of those pieces in the documentation for the judges?

Strange that with all this information, I thought I'd be getting more hesitant of facing a serious ICG panel of judges (I'd love to go to worldcon/costumecon, but I want to increase my skills, first), but all the wonderful information everyone has provided makes me excited to take on the challenge. I just wish I didn't have to wait a year to get started!
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Unread 08-30-2005, 04:16 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
(I'd love to go to worldcon/costumecon, but I want to increase my skills, first),
Please come! I think it's a serious misconception many people have that all the costuming at conventions at that level is superb perfect scaaaaary Master-class, and it's not at all. You'll see a huge mix of different skill levels, different styles, different types of costumes; it's a great way to see what's out there, learn new techniques, talk to people from all over the costuming world, find all kinds of new inspiration. Please, please don't stay home just because you don't think your costumes fit into that one particular traditional Master-class stage-performance mold. That is one model, and it's the one that's evolved to be the status quo of ICG-type performance masquerades, but there's a lot more than that going on! When you get there, you'll be amazed that you ever thought of staying home, I promise.

As far as hall costuming being a "stepping stone," I disagree. My style of costuming doesn't lend itself well to being shown onstage, and I'm not generally creative or witty enough to come up with presentations that would boost them into something stage-worthy, so I keep it to the halls. It's good costuming and good craftsmanship, and I'm proud of it, but not all good costuming needs to go on stage. I'm comfortable that way, and all it means is that I don't have many awards, which doesn't bother me in the slightest. ^_^
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Unread 08-30-2005, 08:31 AM   #99
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This year is out for me costumecon/worldcon wise, but I'm thinking 2007 if all goes well (depending on where and when costumecon is, since I'd probably be back in school). *crosses fingers* I'd love to learn more about the ICG in depth and meet some of you!
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Unread 08-30-2005, 09:44 AM   #100
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Ah, documentation! I'm good in that area. heehee
It's nice to see that the documentation can be creative and thorough.
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Unread 08-30-2005, 06:11 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eriol
Ah, documentation! I'm good in that area. heehee
It's nice to see that the documentation can be creative and thorough.
I rarely present ultra serious documentation. It bores me, and to be honest, I'm much more interested in being entertaining than anything else. Actually I recived compliments from one of the judges at Torcon for my documentation. *Embarassed grin* Here's a sample:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...dzillaREF2.jpg

As a workmanship judge, particularly when at anime conventions, I'm glad for documentation when looking for accuracy. That being said however my main focus is always construction so documentation isn't the end all be all.

------------------

Erica, totally come to costume con sometime. Sarsasm and I are definately trying to get there too. (Curse you Anime North and your schedualing against Costume Con !! )

------------------

Saeto, I hear you regarding the Harry Potter costumes. Maral and I placed to Derwin Mak , who won Best in Show at Con*Cept as the "Hogwarts Phys Ed Teacher". ^_^


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Unread 08-30-2005, 07:44 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Actually I recived compliments from one of the judges at Torcon for my documentation. *Embarassed grin* Here's a sample:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...dzillaREF2.jpg
A picture is worth a thousand words? XP

As you have all been saying, it also depends on the judge's preference. There are probably judges who like a paper just as much as those who like picture collage or wanted poster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaijugal
Saeto, I hear you regarding the Harry Potter costumes. Maral and I placed to Derwin Mak , who won Best in Show at Con*Cept as the "Hogwarts Phys Ed Teacher". ^_^

Are there pictures of this? I presume this is an original costume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saeto
(And on a side note, I notice you are asking the ICG-D list what constitutes an ICG sanctioned masquerade.)
That is a good idea. Trying to nail down some qualifications would be good to try to bring other cons into the fold.
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Unread 08-31-2005, 12:13 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleryth
What exactly is a "more advanced construction level"? More difficult sewing techniques? Props? Armor? General "engineering" (wing harnesses, buttcapes, whatever)? Could you give an example?
Yes. Anything that would require more brainwork than just simple fabric and pattern, creative problem-solving, detailed handwork, advanced engineering, custom moldmaking, all sorts of stuff like that. However...(see below)

Quote:
What about costumes that just don't seem to appear to be as difficult as others. Are those judged more critically because they look more simple? To use an example you may be familiar with, Sarcasm, Rith from Magna Carta vs Ladrinne from the same game? (sorry for the close-to-home example, Oselle!)
Simpler costumes may not be as impressive onstage, but I can tell you that, personally, I am just as impressed by outstandingly impeccable tailoring on a simple outfit as I am by gigantic wings or fancy electronics. But I do see a lot of people who think that they don't have to really put much effort into a 'simple' costume because it's simple, whereas I think you need to put MORE effort into making it really neat and cleanly finished *because* it doesn't have the doodads to distract you. So....I guess the answer to your question is yes. *lol*

Quote:
Should costumers take into account their skill level when choosing a costume to enter the masquerade? I notice that the higher the skill level, the more complex the costume (as a general trend). Are there ways to make a simple-looking costume "be a real contender" against more complex looking costumes, regardless of skill level/rank?
Yes. Absolutely, people should take their abilities and skills into account when choosing costumes. It is true that higher skill levels tend to choose fancier costumes, but not always (as detailed by Saeto above). Absolutely impeccable tailoring and finishing can make a simple-looking outfit stand head and shoulders above a fancy but messily-executed costume, and workmanship judges who know their stuff will recognize good finishing and details when they see them.
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Unread 08-31-2005, 06:43 AM   #104
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More on documentation... I'm involved with a Master-level group that is planning a large presentation for Worldcon '06. Following is exerpted from an e-mail I received this morning from the person in charge of putting our documentation together (edited for Top Sekritness), indicating what she hopes to include:

"1. List of fabrics and other materials (ie glue) as well as supplies.
2. Description of special construction techniques and photos to accompany text. Example- The hair on XXXXXX is yarn sewn onto fake fur. It is then untwisted and combed to give it the wild frizzy look. I gave a description of the process along with a few photo of the process in the works.
3. Description of basic construction techniques used on all or multi costumes. Example- The animals all have a muscular hind end with a tail. A description of how this was achieved can be listed as a group with the description below it.
We have a lot of costumes and don't want to overwhelm the workmanship judges with too much written text. It helps to do group listings for construction techniques when we are able to.
4. Save me sample swatches of fabrics used in each costume. I like to do a swatch card to include with our documentation.
5. Don't forget to provide what dyeing technique is used for each costume fabric.
6. I need a list of who worked on each costume."
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Unread 08-31-2005, 09:11 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcasm-hime
Yes. Anything that would require more brainwork than just simple fabric and pattern, creative problem-solving, detailed handwork, advanced engineering, custom moldmaking, all sorts of stuff like that. However...(see below)
< cut for brevity >
Yes. Absolutely, people should take their abilities and skills into account when choosing costumes. It is true that higher skill levels tend to choose fancier costumes, but not always (as detailed by Saeto above). Absolutely impeccable tailoring and finishing can make a simple-looking outfit stand head and shoulders above a fancy but messily-executed costume, and workmanship judges who know their stuff will recognize good finishing and details when they see them.

And there is always option B, my personal favorite. In lack of any actual sewing or tailoring skills build wierd s***t out of other wierd s***t and make everyone wonder how the hell you did that, and what is that anyway? i.e. "This is the most beautiful hand knotted lace ever.... what do you mean it's maccaroni treated with pine sap ?!" XD

P.S. Hahaha Saeto. Can't wait for me to get my answers before you post them all? ^_~ *chuckles and grins embarassedly* I've been meaning to ask that for over a year now, am reminded every time I host a masq/ICG panel and then promptly forget. *wry smile* I don't think it was ever an issue here until one certain local masquerade claimed to be an Official Masquerade with a standing equivalent to Worldcon, and then it got some people's nose out of joint and other people wondering.
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