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[Eriol]

Originally Posted by Saeto

From the Guild ML...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ICG-D/

The issues with not having any sort of official set of rules for ICG sanctioning is that, going by Marty's criteria, any con can start claiming they are an ICG con by following the guidelines. I still draw the line between ICG-like and ICG-sanctioned. "ICG-sanctioned," to me, an average person, means the cons has been screened by the ICG and validated as complying with the spirit and letter of the guidelines. "ICG-like" doesn't convey quite as strong a meaning and leaves loopholes for cons to claim they follow ICG guidelines (they may not follow all of them, but the layperson won't really know). Kaijugal's reference to a local con of hers that claimed ICG status equivalent to Worldcon seems to support my premise that some people will take the ICG status too far. ICG may be non-profit, but it doesn't mean its "branding" should be taken for granted.

I was hoping that there would be an official process of sanctioning and a listing of "official" ICG cons to create a tour circuit. Granted, the long-standing costumers don't need the fancy legal-mumbo jumbo to know what it is important, but I think it slightly slows down awareness of such cons and the influx of new attendees. And in Kaijugal's anecdote, an official process would also keep cons from overstepping their bounds.

But, what do I know? XP I may be the only non-costumer in this thread. XP


My messages don't seem to be getting to the group. Are they moderated?

[Eriol]

Originally Posted by Saeto

I, too, wish that things were a bit more rigidly defined. It is irritating for a local con to claim that because it is ICG like, they're on par with Worldcon. Any con can use ICG guidelines (i.e. Anime Expo and Otakon), but it does not mean that awards won from these conventions carry the same weight or that the standard is equivalent.

Winning Best in Show at a local con does not a Worldcon master make.

Well, I'm sort of asking such questions in the ICG mailing list right now. haha
(Hi Kaijugal and Saeto!)

It seems the only two ICG recognized cons are Costume Con and Worldcon. So, you can have any other con use ICG guidelines, but they would be officially recognized by ICG at the moment. So, Balticon may follow ICG guidelines, but it doesn't seem to be ICG recognized.

[Eriol]

Originally Posted by Saeto

As the two major international conventions.

The wins at major regional and national cons that are controlled by Guild people do affect one's standing internationally, seeing as how Carl Mami took Kaijugal and Sarcasm's regional wins (from cons that used Guild guidelines and Guild people) into consideration when placing them at Torcon. While it was at the MD's discretion, if they had not had those wins from cons that the Guild considered significant enough, he wouldn't have placed them.

It seems a lot of this is up to the MD's discretion. Why can't there be ICG-recognized cons on the international and domestic level?

What is wrong with saying, "WorldCon and CostumeCon are ICG recognized international cons. The following in your country are also ICG recognized cons...[list countries and sanctioned]. An ICG-sanctioned con has been reviewed by the ICG and is deemed in compliance with ICG guidelines. Please note individual cons may impose additional rules and guidleines beyond the ICG guidelines."?

I would think if there is a central list of ICG-recognized cons, MD's can look an an entrant's wins at cons and automatically apply award counts without having to try to guess if a con's awards should be counted. As I understand it, Balticon runs on ICG guidelines and is managed by ICG members, but it is not "officially" sanctioned by ICG. By official, I mean the ICG membership or board has voted to endorse the con, and the information is public. Balticon runs like an ICG con, but it isn't an "ICG con" as far as any official ICG documentation I can find. I was told before in this thread that the conventions page on the ICG site are just links but not necessarily sanctionings.

[Koumori]

ONLY Costume-Con and Worldcon are "official" ICG cons. However, large regional cons like Balticon and Arisia that are largely run by experienced ICG members are normally counted when considering awards. Really, although it sounds either overly complicated or not complicated enough, it runs pretty well. Most people are easily able to police themselves into the correct divisions, with a little extra guidance if they have any doubts about where they belong.

[Kaijugal]

Originally Posted by Koumori

ONLY Costume-Con and Worldcon are "official" ICG cons. However, large regional cons like Balticon and Arisia that are largely run by experienced ICG members are normally counted when considering awards. Really, although it sounds either overly complicated or not complicated enough, it runs pretty well. Most people are easily able to police themselves into the correct divisions, with a little extra guidance if they have any doubts about where they belong.

This is why I asked on the list you see. Toronto Trek, (which is NOT a purely Star Trek convention despite it's unfortunate name), has been run by ICG members for years, (international masters) and the judges often include at least one ICG lifetime achievement award winner.

Anime North's masqueraded was started by an ICG member and was run by international master level ICG members until I took over two years ago.

The same with Ad Astra and the Expo. Those people are still involved as judges, staff, etc, I'm just the director at Expo and AN.

So why wouldn't they be considered equal in status to Arisia or Balticon?
It's sometimes very confusing. *chuckles*

I am rather glad in a way that they are not considered equal, or complicated by it, but that does not limit my curiousity.

I don't think we ever gave it too much thought here, until people started questioning why The Gathering Of the Fellowship, (which is a Lord of the Rings convention held in Toronto every second year), was telling people that thier masquerade was equivalent with Worldcon ranking. They were telling people that they if you placed in a division in thier masquerade that is the division you'd be in at Worldcon or Costume con. It lead to alot of questions I couldn't answer. *wry grin*

I suppose ultimately it's not ultra important, we've been going on happily the way things are forever. ^_^ I personally am thrilled to have had the opportunity to grow up in such a great costuming community with such easy going and open people and an honour system that works. ^_^

That being said it *IS* difficult to help newer community members when these questions arise if one doesn't have definate answers themself. (and it's rare and frustraiting for me not to have those answers or be able to get them). -_-" ! Ah well. *chuckles and throws hands up in the air* One day will be revealed.

[Eriol]

I got a reply that patches my understanding up, particularly the why part of things.

I'm such an idiot. Sorry for making a mess of things.

[Kaijugal]

Originally Posted by Eriol

I got a reply that patches my understanding up, particularly the why part of things.

I'm such an idiot. Sorry for making a mess of things.

No you are not an idiot at all. Kevin is right, it's better that people ask. Happily nothing is messed.

On the list I was merely concerned because as you can see by Andy's "costume nazi", reference, people sometimes tend to overreact and we wanted to avoid any misunderstandings as to why were were all suddenly there with so many insistant questions. I didn't want any one to mistake it for me launching the spanish inquisition. *wry grin*

^_^ It's all good.

[Kaijugal]

So Eriol, can I inquire as to how you're planning on putting all your new found knowledge to use? ^_^ Better watch out or you'll have some wiley masquerade directors putting you to work. *impish smile*

[Eriol]

What can a wily masquerade director make me do? XP
I certainly can't judge costumes. XP
I have learned much, but it's currently in my brain or in my browser's bookmarks. XP

*looks at you suspiciously*

Because of your impish smile, I am now reminded of Hannibal Smith's smile from the A-Team...

[Eleryth]

You could definitely learn how to run the masq, or help out as assistant director, managing the dens and other volunteers and behind the stage bit of the masq (not the ninjas, that's different). You don't have to judge if you run a masquerade, as far as I can tell - you just have to find the judges.

I'm excited - I want to help out, too, and see what it's like running a masq. Maybe Ad Astra or something.

[Eriol]

Originally Posted by Eleryth

You could definitely learn how to run the masq, or help out as assistant director, managing the dens and other volunteers and behind the stage bit of the masq (not the ninjas, that's different).

I wouldn't think that such a managerial position would be given out to someone who has no experience in that field. I've staffed at 2 cons, but it has never been in the Masquerade department.

[Eleryth]

Eriol, there's always a time to start! ^_^ If you contact the directors in advance and share your interest and experience, perhaps you can observe if not assist in some manner. Usually the masq coordinator is a costumer, but I don't think it's necessary for the assistant director to be one. Kaijugal would know more, though, since she's a masq director. Or Oselle, as she's been Kai's Assistant a few times.

From what I can tell, one usually starts out as a den mother or some other volunteer position related to the masquerade, then moves up to assistant director if they show the drive and aptitude for the position, and from there, to running their own masquerades, perhaps at different, smaller conventions at first to help build experience. Or they manage a smaller aspect, such as a fashion show or "iron cosplay" masquerade.

Stillvisions was director for a skit contest (that had workmanship judging, IIRC) for Anime North, I believe, and he's a relatively new costumer. I don't think he's ever been an Assistant Director before that, but I'm sure he's had people around he could talk to if he had trouble with an aspect of it.

[Buddycat]

Helloooo, Zeebah Naybahs!

Just checking in for the first time and ran across this thread. When I heard about this thread, I wanted to hear what the cosplayers are thinking about the whole masquerade/cosplay and ranking thing. I've found it very interesting that the community, having matured over a number years, is now going through the same general debates that the general SF costuming community had a couple of decades ago. A lot of you are becoming less satisfied with the lack of standards in judging those of you who really work hard at your creations. Some of you are even vocally advocating for adopting ICG guidelines. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts on the subject, and where I can, I hope I can contribute to the discussion as well. Looks like you guys are on the right path already, though!

[Buddycat]

You would assume correctly!

[Buddycat]

Actually, you can thank your fellow forum folks for getting my attention. They've discussed this thread on the ICG-D list and I wanted to read the original posts. I can't speak for the entire ICG, but you cosplayers are definitely have been noticed by the general SF costuming community because of your enthusiasm and sheer numbers!